Dr. Katie Barge educational psychologist talks all things emotional wellbeing.

In this episode of Project Baby Podcast, we’re joined by educational psychologist Dr. Katie Barge, who shares her journey from assessing children for dyslexia to specialising in emotional wellbeing for mums and babies.

After the birth of her first child, Dr. Katie found herself drawn into what she describes as a “total nurture zone,” shifting her focus toward what truly matters—helping children and parents regulate their emotions and build strong mental health foundations from the very beginning.

Drawing from her own experience with perinatal mental health challenges during pregnancy, she speaks openly about the importance of supporting both mums and babies, highlighting how closely their emotional wellbeing is connected.

Dr. Katie also introduces her Nurture System, an approach designed to bring families back into balance through simple, nurturing practices. She explains how anxiety can be gently reduced by focusing on connection, regulation, and emotional support.

This episode offers a compassionate and insightful look at baby brain development, early attachment, and how nurturing relationships can shape lifelong mental health.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

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SPEAKER_03 0:15

Welcome back to the Project Baby Podcast, where today we're joined by Dr. Katie Barge, where we're going to talk all things family, mental health, and wellness.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

Welcome to the Project Baby Podcast. Thank you so much for coming. You're so welcome. Happy to be here. Yeah, well, there's so much to talk about. Let's start with baby brain. So we hear this term analogy just thrown around. I've got baby brain, she's got baby brain. What does it actually mean?

SPEAKER_01 0:42

So it is real, it's a real thing, but like most things with women, I'm a feminist, so I can say this, it's viewed in a negative way, but actually, all it is is the brain rewiring and reconfigurating so that we are attuned to our baby and that we're attuned in a nurturing, loving, responsive way. And so, what the brain does is it's really clever, it moves all of the attention away from planning and memory and organization into social cognition so that we can attune to the needs of our baby. So it's really, really clever. It's kind of like the stress response. When we go in a stress response, our kind of digestive system shuts down because we don't need that if we're running away from saber-tooth tiger, and it's the same with the brain, we don't really need the memory, the logistical planning, we really need those nurture um parts of the brain switched on. So that's what baby brain is, and it needs a new name because it's it's got negative connotations. Yeah, it does, it really does. It's like she's got baby brains, she's just forgetting everything.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Yeah, whereas actually there's a reason for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

And I would argue that the more nurturing you are, I mean, my whole business is called the nurture system, um, and I am a scatter brain, and I can say that about myself, and it's because I'm a very nurturing person, I think the more nurturing you are, the more you're taking away from those kind of thinking functions. Yeah, um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

So let's talk about what you do. So you nurturing is your key.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

So I'm a child, an educational psychologist. Yes, and um originally I was involved in assessing children for dyslexia and all sorts of things like that. Then when I had my own baby, my firstborn, I went into that total nurture zone. I wanted to do what really mattered, and what mattered to me was helping children to regulate, helping mums to regulate, helping mental health. Um, I had some perimental health issues during the pregnancy, and I really wanted to support mums and babies with that, so I just went totally into the emotional well-being side of my job, really. Um, and then I developed the nurture system, which is all about bringing people back into balance through nurture and how we can heal anxiety very simply through a nurturing approach. Nice. So tell me a little bit more about that.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

So, how can we help families that just feel overwhelmed and they want to bring it back?

SPEAKER_01 3:03

It's actually really, really simple. It's simple but hard at the same time because culture doesn't support families. What families need to thrive are what we have in the indigenous tribes where we are in a village, you know, there's that cliche it takes a village, and it actually does. And so, put in really simple terms, what women need or what caregivers need is exactly what a baby needs. We need co-regulation, so it's kind of like that heart emoji of a heart within a heart within a heart. So, to be able to co-regulate for our baby and our child, we need someone to co-regulate for us, whether that's a partner or you know, grandparents or really good friendship network. It doesn't really matter who it is, it's that having that person to co-regulate with you to validate your feelings, for you to borrow someone else's nervous system from them, they're calm, and it's not about words or fixing things, it's just about giving someone that safe container, which is what we need to give our babies. But by holding them, we need to be emotionally held, and that's what we need. But culture doesn't support that emotional holding because we're all running around like headless chickens, getting stressed on to the next thing, comparing ourselves on social media, all of that stuff just doesn't support the nurturing of parents, basically.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

No, um, and I think social media does play a huge, huge part in us comparing ourselves to other families. Everything looks perfect on social media, doesn't it? And it kind of like, well, how come my house doesn't look as tidy as that? And they look like they've got all of their stuff together, whereas actually my house and my my head feels like it's all over the place.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Absolutely, and I think it really depends what content you're consuming. And I say to new parents, just be really mindful of the content you're consuming. There's been a real uprising of relatable parenthood now, and I love that. You know, people showing their messy houses, people showing their postpartum bellies, and all of that, and whether it's you know virtue signaling or getting attention, I don't really care as long as it's making other people feel better and showing honestly what it's like to be a mum. I think that can be really, really powerful. So I think social media isn't to blame per se, it's what we're choosing to consume as well. We've got to take a bit of ownership, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

And how important is emotional development for children under five years?

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Oh my goodness, it's absolutely vital. It's absolutely vital, and I I try and come at this from a really balanced approach because I don't want to scare parents who come to me with, say, a seven-year-old and they say, you know, for the first five years I was really, really stressed. Is this going to have impacted my child? The honest answer is yes, but and that but is huge because we can the brain is plastic, there's neuroplasticity, we can really support that. But the reason why I'd say three one three months in the womb to five years is absolutely vital. We are making at that age new neural connections. I think it's a million every second, it's literally shaping our brain, and those connections are based on the mental health of our caregiver. So, for example, why I'm so passionate about this and why I talk about my story so much is because I want to reassure mum's that we can um undo a lot of the things. So I had really bad anxiety when I was pregnant with Florence, and I just instinctively knew that that was going to have had an impact on her at some point, and whether that was a self-fulfilling prophecy or not, it has, you know, she has had her anxieties, but I've shaped that and helped her with that by being ultra nurturing, by being ultra um in terms of resilience, building her resilience, giving her those kind of challenges, but in a contained way with nurture. So I've really trained myself in how to support her because I knew how important those early brain developmental years are. Um, and and I think it's really reassuring when I work with parents and I say, I'm a child psychologist, and I got it wrong. You know, I I couldn't help it, it wasn't my fault. We don't choose to be anxious, we don't choose to have these um post-natal depression and things like that, but it happens and it's about how we deal with it and how we support ourselves and our children through that. So it is in in answer to your question, it's those uh first five years, we call them the primary patterning years. So, you know, if a child experiences trauma of any sort in those years, it's going to have an impact unless we come in and we hit help to heal that, which is what I see my job is is helping families with that.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

Yeah, so so in a nutshell, how what should we be doing and how should we be modelling to our children to give them the best support we can?

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Slowing down, that's the best thing we can do is slow down, and that will look different for different families, being present, being responsive, um, being ultra responsive to our children, and it's not about being perfect. Um, actually, the rupture and repair, as I call it, is really important for building resilience. So, um, a psychologist and attachment psychologist, David Um Donald Winnicott, he talked about the good enough parent, and what that means is we only need to be responsive to our children between 30 to 50 percent of the time, which is really reassuring. Um, and actually, in those times when we get it wrong, um, quote unquote, that's when they're learning about how to handle frustration. So, you know, those times when we miss the cues, we think the cry is an appy change, and really they just want to cuddle or something. All of those ruptures are really important because they teach children, okay, things can happen, I cannot get my needs met straight away, but I've got this safe, loving person who at some point is going to get my needs met. So it's about being good enough, and I don't like that term because it's has the connotations of not feeling good enough. Um, and I put a ranty post on social media a few years ago about he talks about excuse it was around in the 50s, I think, the good enough mother. Um, but it's about how can we be good enough parents if culture isn't good enough? So I always come back to culture not supporting us, and I think in England we we've got it a bit better than America, you know. Um, maternity pay and paternity rights are much better in this country, and I think all of those kinds of things help to shape a child's future, really.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

Yeah, and I'll come from this from a different angle. So I I have a little boy who's uh three years old, but he has suffered trauma in a way of hospital trauma, so medical interventions. And I see for him that he's so attached to me.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

How can I help him a bit more by just carrying doing what you're doing, honestly? Just being you, being yourself, being there for him, and trusting that what he's asking for is what he needs, yeah, and he's not always going to need that. Yeah, it's just um he might need a bit extra from the medical trauma that he's been through, and it's kind of the same with um my children. So my youngest is a lot more robust, and sometimes I think, oh gosh, I need to give Florence so much more than I need to give Primrose, but it's because of the traumas that she's been through. So it's about being really patient with yourself and with your child and knowing that it's not going to last forever, he's not always going to need that attachment so strongly, yeah. Um, but the fact that you're aware of it is a real protective factor for him, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Of course. Um and the maternal brain, let's talk about the hormones and the and getting that balance right.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's really hard and it comes down to stress a lot of the time. So having as far as possible a stress-free pregnancy, which I know doesn't exist in this world. Um but what the maternal brain needs, it needs we call it second adolescence, really, when we become pregnant, because in adolescence a child's brain is is going to undergo so much change, and that's exactly what's happening with the maternal brain. Um, you know, MRI studies show that grey matter greatly reduces in the prefrontal cortex because it's moving from planning, organization, cognition to social cognition, emotion, and attunement, and there's that fine pruning, and we need to give ourselves rest and space to do that, and that's the most important thing is rest, connection with other mums to be, connection with loved ones, all of those kinds of things that we would say to a child going through adolescence and who might be having a tricky time of it, and whilst their brain is reconfiguring, is give ourselves a bit of a break. That's it in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

Yeah, and what's the best piece of advice you could ever give a first-time parent?

SPEAKER_01 11:37

Oh gosh. The best piece of advice I could give to a first-time parent is don't take the advice, it's to listen inside, and I know that's really corny in cliche, but what millennials and Gen Zders what we do is we are bombarded with information, which is amazing, you know, the evidence base and all of that, but actually, we've been having babies for millions of years, thousands of years. We know how to serve our babies' needs, we know how to serve our needs, we just need to listen to ourselves. So, all of the advice when I had my firstborn was you know, controlled crying, all of those kinds of things. My sister bought me a book called Trottler Taming, and none of it resonated with me. And I looked into control crying and it just didn't resonate with me, so I just did exactly what I thought I should do, which everyone was telling me not to do, co-sleeping and all of those kinds of things, which I know can be quite inflammatory. But I just kind of went into mama bear mode, I shut off a little bit from the noise, and I just did what my heart told me to do, and that's so cliche, but that is what I would say to new members is just listen to yourself, you know. I remember a really dear friend saying to me she was doing control crying, and she said, you know, it just feels so wrong when the baby's crying and and she just needs me. And I didn't give her any advice because I always wait for people to ask me. I don't give unsolicited advice, but I just said what feels right for you, and in that moment she knew that it was to feel responsive, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

Yeah, yeah, and I do think there is that side where you just it's so noisy, so noisy, and I think as a first-time new parent, I think when you've had one, you become a bit more confident, you're a bit more like actually, I know I know what my baby my baby needs, your baby might be different, but my baby needs this. But I do think it's so noisy that people are just they create an anxiety around them. Um, and I've spoken to lots of new parents recently, um, and give me your advice on this, and lots of apps that parents are downloading to track every single movement of every single day of their babies. Yeah, it seems to be like new parents coming through in um at the moment that are downloading these apps. What should your advice and thoughts on?

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Oh gosh, I've got quite strongish views on it. So I see it very similar to a smartwatch. I've never worn a smartwatch in my life, I don't intend to ever use one because for me it evokes anxiety. Um, I think it comes back to trusting yourself. So, you know, when I had my firstborn, it was just the wonder weeks, that was the only out there that was, and that was knowledge can be power. So if you're going through a really tricky time and the baby won't stop crying, and so it can be quite reassuring to say, Oh, it's because of this, you know. But then when there's too much knowledge and you think, well, my baby's still crying all the time and really unsettled, but we should be out of that phase by now, then we can get obsessional. And I talk for myself because I can get obsessional because I love all the data, and so my advice is if it provides you with community, always go back to tribes and the indigenous cultures. So, what did they have? They didn't have apps, they didn't have anything like that, they had community support, so it's not like switch off from all of the knowledge and all of the wisdom that is out there. Like, let's not throw the baby out at the bathwater, so to speak. Actually, when it becomes anxiety-provoking, when we see ourselves becoming hyper-vigilant and checking the app all the time, yeah, get rid of it. So, you know, there's great apps. I would I would much prefer new parents use things like the Calm app or mindfulness apps to just switch their brain off, their brain off, yeah, and to go with the rhythm of their baby. Um, in a nutshell, I would say steer away from the apps if you can. Um, I know some people can't do that.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

No, some people love them, and some people feel that they they give them that security blanket. Absolutely, um and that's absolutely okay as well.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Um but I think when it's creating the anxiety, then that's when and I think that's a bit about knowing yourself because we kind of come into two categories of monitors and blunters, we call it in terms of um allowing ourselves to feel stress. And for people who are monitors, having the apps and things are really helpful because we can track it to the app and it's like right, got it safe, fine. Whereas blunters, I mean it's a terrible phrase, but actually they create anxiety for us, and that's what the category that I'm in. I'd rather just tune into myself. But other people they really really benefit from the apps, and you know, they provide them with that knowledge and reassurance, so yeah, whatever works for you.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

Whatever works for you, yeah. The balance between protecting kids and helping them build resilience, it's a really it's a really good question.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

It's again, it's all about balance, it's all about balance. So, um, we don't want to be throwing our kids into adversity, obviously. No, um, so the first thing I want to say on that is we cannot love our children too much, we can't you know give them all the affection, we can't be overly affectionate with our children. However, once they start learning and exploring, we can provide safe challenge for them, and basically that just means providing scaffolding like we would a house when we're building a house, when we're building challenging for our children, we provide that container again for them. Um, and that actually builds resilience. So if they if a child is left alone and they're facing challenge alone, that is toxic stress. Whereas if they're facing the same challenge with a supporting, loving person, doesn't even have to be a parent, that is productive stress, and it's kind of like a U-shaped curve of the kind of um stress that we expose our children to, and it's really difficult to get right as a parent, especially with our first child. I remember with um with my eldest, she's very, very painfully shy, and so I enrolled her in her poetry reading course, Lambda, and um she had to go and recite a poem that she'd um memorised, and she was so nervous in the car on the way there, and I thought, oh my goodness, am I traumatizing my child? But because I was there the whole time and she came out of that exam or test, and she was like a different child afterwards, and I was like, Wow, that's one thing I've got right because it's but and then I reflected on it, and it's because I was there for her in that stress. If she'd have gone on her own, that would have been toxic stress for her, so it's about knowing what's right for our particular child as well. Some of our children are more robust than us and others, and they need more challenge, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

And not every one of our children are going to be the same either. No, um, a five-minute regulation reset.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

What does that look like? Oh gosh, you can do it in less than five minutes, really. Um, it's supposed it's stopping, and you can be anywhere, you could be on the tube, you could be in the supermarket. If you tune into yourself, um we call it introsception, but all that is is awareness of what's going on in our body, and so we become aware, we acknowledge what might be going on, it might be anger, it might be anxiety, it might be stress, whatever. We feel where that is in the body for others. For some, it'll be kind of in the chest area, for others, it'll be in the tummy, just have that awareness, and then really a really simple way is just breathing. I know everyone talks about it, but it's so so powerful. I think because it's so simple, we think that it should be more complicated, but it's really just as simple as breathing in for four seconds and breathing out for the exhale for six seconds, and doing that repeatedly will automatically get our system into a state of um parasympathetic nervous system, which is basically relaxation, it engages the vagal nerve and vagal tone. Other things like splashing our face with cold water, humming really helps. That's why babies absolutely love lullabies and being hummed to, especially by the ears, because it switches on the vagal, and we can do it to ourselves. Doing this um to produce saliva, it signals to the body that when we produce saliva in our mouth that we're we are um rested and not stressed, so we can trick ourselves into regulation, really, and just thinking of a really funny memory or thinking of a loved one, whatever works for you. Some people don't enjoy breathing exercises. Some of my clients, when I get them to do a breathing exercise, they're like, It stresses me out because I'm getting it wrong. Is it four seconds or six seconds? So I just say, Right, breathing is natural, you know, through the nose. Can you think of a really lovely memory for me? Maybe it's your wedding day, maybe it's the day your baby was born, and it's co-regulating. If you haven't got someone to co-regulate, just imagine your higher self co-regulating for you and putting you in a really warm, cozy blanket. So it's whatever works for you, basically.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

I love that because I do think that lots of parents in the moment when the toddler is crying at your feet, but you have no idea why, or the newborn babies crying. It's really hard, isn't it? And it's kind of like, I'm gonna fight and flight, I just don't know what to do. You know, you don't want to shower them, but equally you're like overwhelmed, you're tired. Um, so I think that's really key advice. Yeah, and that's great advice.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

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SPEAKER_02 21:17

What can they do to support?

SPEAKER_01 21:20

They can do so much, they are really the backbone of it all. All of the research suggests that partners are a real protective factor for maternal wellness, for the well-being of the baby, of the child. Um, and again, they don't actually have to do a lot. Um, I know men get overwhelmed by it or women, you know, if we're talking partners, it's just about being a safe container. It's about taking off the load of whatever that might be to help support rest and sleep, um, cooking, anything really, whatever works for the family. And I think just providing that sounding board just to listen. Because I think partners feel sometimes that they have to fix the situation or you know solve it immediately, but often it's just about listening, validating, again, going back to all of those things that help children is what helps us when we're going through the pregnancy and the early stages of babyhood, basically. Yeah, it's partners play a really, really crucial role.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

So obviously, um, we've spoken about lots of noise out there, socials, um, people's opinions, and lots of people are flying around with lots of different words at the moment, like trigger, anxiety. What does it actually come down to here?

SPEAKER_01 22:40

What does it actually mean? It all comes down to the same thing, which is a dysregulated nervous system, which is actually adaptive. We can't walk around and live our lives with a completely regulated nervous system, otherwise, we wouldn't have vigilance crossing a road, we wouldn't have vigilance at night time, we wouldn't have stranger danger, all of that kind of thing. So basically, it all boils down to stress. So when people are banding things around like trauma, anxiety, PTSD, yes, they are all real things, and in the diagnostic manual, they are real things. I'm not um dismissing that, however, it's banded around a lot on social media, and the danger of it is children internalise this, we internalise this, and we start to label ourselves, our children start to label themselves, and we are changing the trajectory of our own lives and their lives by them identifying themselves as being an anxious person or someone with trauma, and so even if I am working with someone, for example, who has been through what I would class as um trauma as classified as a diagnosis, I very rarely use that word when I'm working with a client because it's not helpful. What's more helpful is understanding when are you feeling regulated, when are you feeling dysregulated, how is that working for you, you know. And by dysregulation, I really mean are we in fight or flight? Is our response anger? Is it anxiety? Do we shut down? Do we freeze? Are we fawning? Are we people pleasers? That's much more of a helpful way to think about things rather than calling people anxious or trauma, you know, and everyone's trauma-informed and all of this. And whilst it's great because we're raising the profile of mental health, it is having a bit of a backlash because there's a bit of an echo chamber of everyone's a narcissist, everyone's got trauma, everyone's got anxiety, whereas actually that's not really helpful.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

Yeah, and when it comes to um supporting our little children um and they're having a meltdown, how can we help them in that moment to listen to us, to trust us, um, enough to be able to bring them out of that moment for them? What advice would you give parents?

SPEAKER_01 24:55

It's it's simple but difficult to implement. So it's providing that safe container. And I work with parents and they say to me, I try and provide a safe container and they don't want me to cuddle them. So my advice is do they want a cuddle? Because if a child's having a meltdown, they are telling me that they don't feel safe, they feel out of control, that they're scared. That's what's underneath the meltdown. Now, every child has got their unique signature. They some children love cuddles, some children need time and space to regulate again. So it's understanding what is your child's temperament. So bringing it back to my girl's one of my daughters, she's very fiery, she loves a cuddle. All I have to say to her now is do you want a cuddle? And she'll tell me yes or no. Yeah, my eldest, I know that she needs space. I say, I'm here when you need me, but she needs space to calm down. So it's about getting to know your child and actually having faith and trust that they will come back down again. You know, in the moment, it's horrible because none of us like dealing with the messy emotions, we just want to push them away, we want all to be fixed. And you know, for me, I might in the in the early days I might say, Oh, can I get you a sweet or something like that? Which I know is really toxic behaviour, but now I think no, now I just trust they're gonna come down from this, even if I'm in the supermarket and you know, cliche example, older people are tatting, people are giving me looks, people are thinking, what an awful child, awful mother. I just think the only people that matter in this situation is me and my child. I know that she's gonna calm down at some point. It might take one minute, it might take 20 minutes of hell, but I know she's gonna calm down. So I think a lot of it is about having faith and trust and coming back to those five-minute regulation strategies that we talked about of what can I do to bring myself to calm down in this moment because that's all that matters. I'm kind of I know it sounds horrid, but I'm not so much interested when people come to me and talk to me about their child having an outdone, I'm more interested in how we get can get the parent or caregiver to manage that for themselves because if they can manage it, their child would be like, Oh, they're really safe.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Yeah, absolutely. Because I think if you're meeting it head on, yeah, you're also not going to get anywhere. Yeah, they'd definitely pick up on how we react, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:02

It takes time, it's and you know, when we're tired or when we've had a busy day at work, you know, sometimes I do snap and I do say the wrong thing. I think, oh, I shouldn't have said that, but it's about having that awareness and real self-compassion, which again I know is really cliche, but just be kind to ourselves because we're not always going to get it right.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Yeah, yeah. I do think allowing yourself as a parent to know that it's okay to make mistakes, but it's also really important to recognise that and to mimic that behaviour that you're teaching your children, yeah, like to say sorry, to recognise that actually a snapshot shouldn't have, I'm sorry. You know, I think that is so important for children to learn. Um, and I actually had that myself. Um as a parent, I've got three children, I don't get it right all the time. I am tired, I am overstimulated, and then definitely snapped at my husband for all the wrong reasons, but I did apologize, and I apologised in front of my seven-year-old, and I remember uh he just sort of looked at me and it's like, oh, she apologises too. Yes, I do, because I don't always get it right too. So powerful, so powerful. And you could see he was he was absorbing that. Um, so I think I think it's so important because I think we put so much pressure on ourselves to be the perfect parent, the perfect mum.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

And you know, but we're carrying so much, and I think sometimes we just need to take ourselves, take life, take parenting slightly less seriously, not in terms of not caring, but in terms of having that lightness and just being like, you know, I'll say to my kids quite a lot on a daily basis, sometimes mummy messed up there, I'm really sorry, and just moving on and just laughing about it, being authentic with it as well. I think that just makes parenting feel so much easier when we can just be like, oh, I messed up, sorry, kids. Yeah, sorry. When they can understand that, yeah, yeah, and that modelling that you were talking about, I love that because that's just showing respect to your other half. It's and they're gonna be absorbing that and show and modelling that with their friends as well, which is amazing.

SPEAKER_02 29:03

Yeah, absolutely. So let's debunk some myths. What does baby actually need? Do we need to buy lots of stuff for baby or baby?

SPEAKER_01 29:13

Just needs a happy, healthy caregiver. That is literally all baby needs, and I think um there is a pressure to be doing all of the things when baby arrives: baby swimming classes, baby yoga, baby sensory, baby massage, which I've done all of these by the way. So talking from experience. But by the time I had my second baby, I was like, I'm only gonna do one or two of those things that I like because it serves me, because they serve really nice chocolate cake, and I get to chat to other mums. So it's really going back to that old adage: if it's what's good for mum is good for baby. So if going to all of the classes and um the events and things like that, it's good for you if you're an extrovert, you need that community. Brilliant, do it. If you are someone who is a highly sensitive person, maybe you're a bit more introverted, then don't feel the pressure to go to all of those things because baby just needs you, and again, with all of the equipment and things like that. I remember I got obsessed when I was pregnant with my first about having the best rocker, the best high chair, because it would look good on Instagram, which I know sounds absolutely ridiculous, but half of it I never used, I didn't use any of the sleep support things, I didn't use any of the rockers. Um, because I had quite a high needs baby, a clingy baby, and she just wanted to be on me the whole time, so I saved a fortune by the time I have my second baby. But again, if those things, if you've got the money for those things and they bring you joy and they make your life easier, then do it, but don't feel that you have to, it's about what works for you.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

So that would be my kind of main thing about and say if I'm an anxious mum and I've been anxious throughout my whole pregnancy, and then that has really fed through into my first few months of postnatal. Can can I pull that back for my baby?

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean it's really common, um, it's more common than we like to talk about, or um mums like to admit there's still shame wrapped around it when there shouldn't be. Um, absolutely, and actually, it can make you an even stronger parent, stronger caregiver because you'll have that empathy and awareness, and you'll have all of those skills because you'll naturally look to rectify what's happening for you inside, and so you'll be ready for things when they come up. So, you know, it might be that you just need to talk to a friend, talk to a loved one, family, or it might be that you perinatal support in this country is actually really really good on the whole. Um, we like to talk about how the NHS is failing us, but actually, I see definitely for pregnant mums and for postpartum, it's really they're very hyper-vigilant for mums that have just had a baby. And speaking for myself, the care that I received was amazing. I had really amazing health visitors, midwives, you really get a team around you in most cases, and I suppose it's about not having shame around it and just thinking this is just normal. Really, if you think about it, the anxiety is just about the fluctuation of hormones, yeah. Um, it's not nothing wrong with you, it's your body just adapting.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

Yeah, and I think if you're if you are anxious, you're actually doing a good job, Barney. Absolutely because you're wanting to get it right. Yeah, like and that's that's tick number one box, isn't it? Really? Um, and I do think, yeah, I think, yeah, if you're you're thinking about am I getting this wrong, you're definitely doing it right.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Absolutely, and I say that to all of my all of the mums, they say I'm really anxious all the time, is that bad? And I say, No, that's good because you really deeply care. Yeah, and that can be just so reassuring. Um, I don't think there's any new mums that aren't anxious, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

No.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Um, it's just about who admits it and how deeply we feel it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

This hasn't been an amazing conversation. Um, I feel like we could talk for hours. Um, but if our listeners wanted to find out more about yourself, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_01 33:03

So they can find me on Dr. Katie Barge on Instagram, um, on my Facebook is Dr. Katie Barge as well. And yeah, I'd love to see you over there. Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Thank you so much for coming. Oh, thank you so much. Um, one question I do ask everybody before I finish the podcast is what is your love language?

SPEAKER_01 33:21

Oh, my love language, cuddles. Cuddles, it's affection. Nice. Affection. I am cuddle queen, and it gets me in trouble sometimes because some people don't like cuddles, so I always have to ask first. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

If you enjoyed today's episode, please don't forget to subscribe, and we'll look forward to seeing you on the next episode soon.