Love With Teeth

What happens when love forgets its strength?
In this episode a story about a lion sets the scene for a bigger question: what kind of love can hold truth, justice, and gentleness together? This episode explores how our view of love shapes the way we see Jesus and the world around us.

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Transcript

The Lion’s Teeth And A Warning

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Alliion demanded the daughter of a woodcutter in marriage. The father, unwilling to grant and yet afraid to refuse his request, hit upon this expedient to rid himself of importunities. He expressed his willingness to accept him as the suitor of his daughter on one condition, that he should allow him to extract his teeth and cut off his claws. As his daughter was fearfully afraid of both, the lion cheerfully assented to the proposal. When, however, he next repealed his request, the woodman, no longer afraid, set upon him with his club and drove him away into the forest. One of Aesop's fables.

Humanity, Limits, And Incarnation

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Humanity is not an easy thing to live with. We often struggle with our limitations and the realities of a physical world we can't ever fully control. A human world of interactions that bring as much pain as joy. And yet, this is the existence that God chose and embraced. God brought salvation not by removing us from our humanity, but by entering it with us and inviting us into a journey of transformation within it.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

This episode, loved.

What Do We Mean By Love

SPEAKER_01 2:08

But is la is is love really a good true North Star for humans, or does it just sometimes make us do foolish, foolhardy things?

SPEAKER_00 2:18

The problem is always what you mean by love, isn't it? Because love today is kind of slightly saccharine. We think it's Hollywood kind of flattery eye, um, you know, eyelashes and things. And and actually, love in scripture is is a pretty hard kind of standard to live by. But I think we've followed out love, or we think, well, if I love somebody, I'll just let them do anything they want. Or, you know, um I think often we have love with our teeth today. And uh, I mean that came really home to me a few years back when I was doing some work with um a group of young people from all around the world. We had people from just

Global North Vs South: Two Jesuses

SPEAKER_00 3:03

everywhere, you know, lots and lots of different nationalities, people from the global north, from really well-to-do countries, and people who'd grown up in really difficult environments with conflict, war, hunger. And uh I was doing an exercise with them where we had pictures of Jesus that were painted by artists from all around the world. Um, and um I asked them to each pick the picture of Jesus that this is Jesus, this is the Jesus of scripture, this is the Jesus I imagine, I pray to, and then pick a picture that says that's not Jesus. And it something really, really interesting happened where every single person from the global north picked a picture of an embrace and said, Oh, Jesus accepts me as I am, I don't need to change anything, I just know that everything about me is fine and Jesus loves me, and Jesus is all about love. Um and they said, Oh, the picture we really hate is this picture called the Angry Christ, which is a depiction of Jesus clearing the temple, of like telling the merchants to get out. And then everybody from the global south picked a picture of Christ on the cross and talked about the cost of putting things right in the world, the cost of justice, the cost of love, the cost of their own sin. And I just thought that was really fascinating. That for those who had actually had a reasonably easy life, love seems the easy answer. Love meant I don't have to change. Um, I am accepted. So identity was very closely linked to their sense of who Jesus was. For those who had grown up, particularly in situations of gross injustice, there was that sense that love was actually quite hard and it was costly and it was demanding, and that actually you can't really have love without justice. So their views on the Angry Christ picture was much more positive. Because for them, if you love, you have to challenge injustice. But if you challenge injustice, you do it in a way that uh brings you to the cross. And so we had a really interesting kind of theological conversation because I think everybody

Love, Justice, And Cost

SPEAKER_00 5:23

had something to learn, because actually there was something about those who hadn't thought about love as acceptance, learning something about the way in which Jesus can accept, you know, and love all of us. And I think that's a really important insight. Uh but there was something about reflecting, on the other hand, on the fact that love without justice and truth is the privilege of the comfortable.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

And I wonder if that speaks into things like the the divorce rate of our country, for instance. Um obviously there's lots of outliers within that that people get divorced for really like powerful concerning reasons that need to be addressed, like domestic abuse. But there's this sense in which if our definition of love is this, I don't need to change, I'm loved, you can never build a a strong relationship on that. That interpretation of what it means.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

And also, I think if love is mostly about feelings and that relationship, it's become really, really hard. So, what are the other things that sustain love? You know, I um I like the work of the philosopher Anthony Giddens, uh, where

Fragile Relationships And Pure Love

SPEAKER_00 6:40

he talks about the way in which our world in the West has turned to what he calls pure relationships. So a marriage in the past could have been about love, but it was also about survival, it was about economic interest, it was about safety and bringing up children in an environment where they could be safely cared for by parents, you know. Um, and it was about duty, and you stayed in your marriage because of duty and social expectations. And now we tend to see all these things as negatives today, don't we? Wow, yeah, marriage should be about love. And I think what it's driving at is well, actually, love fluctuates, or sense of whether this relationship is fulfilling as a one-to-one fluctuate. But actually, those other benefits, that social contract, that sense of duty, that responsibility, that economic impact, those things don't fluctuate as much. And actually at times when the relationship doesn't seem as strong, other things can bear the weight of the relationship. Whereas now we've turned to pure relationship. So whether I carry on having a relationship with you, it depends on whether I feel that relationship is um successful or fulfilling or meets my needs or whatever. And I think then it's really hard for that to bear the weight of a life together.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

And I think it's also really hard to plan for when you get into that. If you plan your life based upon well, I hope I'll still feel like this in one day. Um I I don't think

Duty, Covenant, And Staying Power

SPEAKER_01 8:15

you can walk through life with any sense of um I know that we can't have all control, but you there's no sense of I can still promise that, or you can't make a covenant or promise in any sense of the word, because you're like, Well, if I'm not feeling like it on that day, then I guess my promise will just be broken. Um whereas at least in this other type of love where it becomes about a commitment to family, a commitment to economic stability, a commitment to always having someone look out for your health interests or your diet, or the someone that's got your back in a sense, this much more um less romantic, maybe, but like has other virtues to it is something that you can pre-empt in your life because it's like, well, I guess tomorrow I can still choose to look out for you, I can still choose to think about what we're eating together, I can still choose to make financial decisions together. Whereas, you know, I have no idea whether I'll I'll wake up feeling a wonderful sense of love. I mean, especially at the moment for me as someone that has just had a baby six months ago, there's not a lot of romance or or feelings that are kind of going around other than feelings of exhaustion. Yeah, um, you know, very occasionally it'll be this, wow, I love my wife, I love my family. But that is not hugely present, but this love, this articulation of love, which is that that grounded more in, I guess, the the South South Hemispheres, um, as you identified, is much more present where it's uh I have to turn up.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Yeah, and of course that can become abusive, as you hinted, you know. So

Boundaries, Abuse, And Ethical Love

SPEAKER_00 10:07

you know, you don't want to have a concept of marriage, for instance, that keeps people together even when one partner is severely abused, or the children are at risk, or you know, or somebody cheats repeatedly, or you know, of course we Yeah, yeah, yeah. But but I think love as a concept for me, there is that sense of it just it doesn't exist just in a vacuum and it doesn't exist purely because of feeling. Love has an ethic, as it were. Love has a, you know, it has actions that go with it. Um, and it has to go with truth and justice.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Um Do you see throughout the Bible that love would have been an articulation of why people were doing what they were doing? Or is that something that we've kind of now imposed upon it in the modern day?

SPEAKER_00 10:56

I think there's an element of imposing things upon scripture. I think love is part of the picture, but I think the the tapestry of scripture is so varied and also so pragmatic and realistic about the nature of human beings

Scripture’s Mixed Motives And Realism

SPEAKER_00 11:12

that sometimes they do things out of love, but a lot of time they do things out of lust, out of desire for power, out of a sense of duty, out of compassion, out of kindness. You know, there's lots of different feelings and lots of different motivators for actions. Uh and and often there's mixed motivations as well, you know. I think you can do something out of both compassion and a sense of duty of compassion and a sense that maybe you might benefit from the outcome anyway. You know, it's and I mean that's why I love the Old Testament because the stories of the Old Testament are stories of complex people with complex feelings that you can't just reduce or bottle.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

What does it mean for you and for us? Do you think that seemingly Jesus did put raise this kind of love to the top of the pedestal in in various articulations of that?

Jesus’ Tough Love And Transformation

SPEAKER_00 12:09

I think Jesus does that, but I think he's the way he talks about love has real substance. Um so I think one of the things that's really important in what Jesus says, but that you find in the Old Testament as well, is this sense that everything is rooted in God's love for us. So the beginning and end of all things is that God loved, reached out to human beings, gave himself for human beings, you know, in the Old Testament, even though people often fail to see it, but you know, grace comes first. God reaches out to human, God loves God's people and therefore invites them into relationship. You know, this there is this constant sense of humanity being loved, and I think we see that in the words of Jesus. Um and one of the things in a ministry of Jesus is that sense of Jesus looking upon people with love. Before he has a conversation, you know, he's often we're told Jesus sees, and Jesus then kind of opens up a relationship, and that can come into a healing or a conversation, or you know. So that sense of love just permeates the ministry of Jesus. But that doesn't stop Jesus saying lots of really, really tough things, you know. He says tough things to the Pharisees, but he says tough things to other people. You know, the woman caught in adultery, well, how you catch a woman in adultery on her own still is a mystery to me. Um, it's not really something you engage in uh as a single sport. Uh but so Jesus is incredibly kind to her and stops others from stoning her, but he still says, you know, go and sin no more. You know, so there's this sense of love, doesn't mean you don't hold

Loving Enemies And Prophetic Posture

SPEAKER_00 13:55

people to account, nor is there a sense in the ministry of Jesus that love means you don't ask people to change in some way or to be transformed. You know, when Jesus heals the person Lord through the roof, you know, he says first, before he does the physical healing, he says your sins are forgiven. So actually, that's not, you know, unconditional. Everything about you is wonderful. It's a yes, I love you, and yes, I am gonna do something for you, but I am also gonna invite you to step into the truth of who you are. And there is something about Jesus' love being the kind of love that helps us be who we are, and I think that's one of the really hard things. That because Jesus loves first, it makes it possible to see the truth of who we are, you know, because that truth is less scary and less damaging to our sense of self because we know we're loved, and if Jesus asks for us to change something in how we behave, that comes out of a place of love and concern and wanting the best for that person. Um so but I don't think Jesus' love is an easy love, and it is the love that says, take up your cross and follow me.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

A love with teeth, that's that's uh to go back to the story that we referenced at the beginning. Um not that that's it just has the word

Limits In Conflict And Humanising Foes

SPEAKER_01 15:26

teeth in it, which is the only link I'm making particularly at the moment. But there's there's a world in which you know the the stereotype of of a Christian love is one that's way more um engaged with the the mildness, um, the the accepting of all things rather than the confrontation of damaging things. I think so many of the the areas that we've spoken about across this series have created the preconditions, if you like, the it the fact that we are dependent and vulnerable and fragile and mortal, they all point us in the direction of us needing to engage with each other, whereas love seems to be the way that we have to engage with each other. And that's gonna involve inevitably times where the conflict being having a loving relationship which is able to hold conflict is basically the problem of the world anyway.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

And and I think how do we do conflict in a way that loves our enemy? That you know, uh one of my friends says, Because I'm a Christian, it's not that I don't have enemies, it's that I have a different kind of enmity. So the way in which I am an enemy is different because I love my enemy. So what does that look like? And and I think we really struggle with that today because you know, I look at Christian social media and I despair. I'm like, where are the fruits of the spirit? Where is love, joy, kindness, temperance, self-control, gentleness,

War, Restraint, And Practical Love

SPEAKER_00 17:05

you know, all of that. People treat one another shamefully under the guise of speaking truth to power or standing up for what's right or standing up for truth, you know, whatever it is. And I I often hear people saying, Oh, we just need prophets and to speak truth to power. And I think, do we? Because if you really want to be a prophet in scriptural terms, that's not an easy path. Because when you see, you know, the prophets often when they're called, one of the first things that happen is that they need to be cleansed. They need to accept that they're part of the problem. They're not just a solution, like you know, cleansing the lips of the prophet. So there is that. And then the prophets often don't stand outside in judgment over the people they're talking to. They're standing with the people that are being judged. Jeremiah is taken into exile. Isaiah speaks from exile. Ezekiel bears into his body the weight of the sin of the people and the judgment that God is gonna give. And so those people are not standing over Israel saying, You terrible people, gonna

Love In The Real World

SPEAKER_00 18:14

do this to you, ha ha ha. You know, they actually weep for their people, they plead with God, they and a lot of them end up giving also a message of comfort from God saying, But I love my people, and therefore, you know. Um, and I'm not sure I hear a lot of that in the Christian church today. I think we often either have the kind of love with no boundaries and we can do everything or anything, or I'll only love the people in my tribe, but if you're not in my tribe, I'll stand over you in judgment and kind of and actually what we see in the prophets and true prophetic speech is a different kind of love at work. It's love that has got a double solidarity where they're in solidarity with people by that are hurt by injustice and everything that's wrong in the world, and they're in solidarity with the people that are

Closing Benediction And Series Wrap

SPEAKER_00 19:06

under judgment, and there's an overlap actually between those who are hurt and those who are under judgment, as there often is.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

It seems like there's that sense in which you've got have an love says have an eye towards yourself and have an eye towards the other person, and maybe that's one of the greatest lessons of it is that when it when we're talking about loving ourselves, it's it's a refining process that enables you to love someone else. And I guess I I mean I'm interested about this person that you said about change you still have enemies, but you have to change the way that you love them. I mean, what what do you think that looks like? Like I'm talking about proper like you know, we could articulate plenty of um world leaders that we could quite easily point out and go, yeah, definitely the enemy category. Um obviously we we m may never meet them and may never have any choice in how we engage with them. But I guess one thing that it says in the Bible quite clearly is to pray for them.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Um and bless them even.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Yeah. Not so keen on that one.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Well, I mean I think for me just because you love doesn't mean you miss out on truth. So you can still tell the truth of how somebody's behaviour is impacting the entire world, but still have love for them. But for me, love is about it's about seeing the whole person in the first place. So not reducing that person to the worst that they do, but being able to see the the shades of you know, light and dark within that person and being able to acknowledge that they can't be caricatured or reduced. It's about I always ask myself, what's the most generous description or what's the most generous explanation I could give of what that person is doing, trying to understand those underlying things. Um, it's about saying if we stand against that person, what are the boundaries to the way in which we kind of express enmity? And that's, you know, I think that is what nations have tried to do in the wake of the Second World War, for instance, or international laws around the conduct of war or treaties on refugees are about saying we're human beings, we get it wrong and we will carry on getting it wrong, and therefore there might be wars. But if there are wars, are there things that are no-go areas where actually it doesn't matter how much you think another is an enemy, there are things we simply do not do to another human person. Now, whether you're a pacifist or not, or whatever, is irrelevant, I think. That's about saying, are there ways that of being enemies that we can comprehend and others that we can't? Now I would think that I wouldn't want to even pull the trigger on an enemy, but and I was brought up in a you know in a pacifist household, so I have strong views. But but I think there is something really valuable about all these international treaties that say there are limits. And actually, no matter what somebody has done, there are things we do not do in retaliation.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

There's um something called the Nordern Bomb Site, which was created by someone Nordin. Fascinating that. And he was a devout Christian, and this was in World War II, and he was dead set on the idea that we needed to become better at aiming bombs out of Christian duty, which at first I was like, oh gosh, like this is really doesn't feel at home with someone aligning the two. But he was basically like, if we hit if we become better at aiming, then we re-reduce the amount of innocent lives that are taken. And in a sense that it pushes us right to the extremities of love, which is that um that sense of we're gonna do we have to do something when we have to draw a line somewhere, even with when the world is in complete chaos, and love in that sense for him was making a better way of targeting bombs.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

I mean, I think there's a difference between saying targeting bombs is good and saying and saying targeting bombs will happen. So if it's gonna happen, let's reduce the amount of evil it will create. And I think for me that's about love being a practical thing. Love isn't just all about concept. Love has to deal with a messy world within which we don't often have neat and tidy answers. Um and again, I'm gonna say that's why I like the Old Testament, because I feel like so much of the Old Testament, you know, sometimes I get students who read it and they say, But how could God have said that or given those laws? Because what God should have done is this and made everything better and told them how to do it for the best, you know. And I want to say, but God was working with the reality of humanity, and working with reality doesn't give you ideal answers, it gives you compromises, it gives you love at work in action, it gives you incomplete people who are being changed one step at a time. Um and for me that is kind of a really important part of love: that love doesn't deal with ideals, it deals with reality, it deals with the real person who is sitting next to me, opposite me, or far away from me, and I don't want to hear from, and yet that person is in relation with me. So, what does love look like in the imperfect world that we live in?

SPEAKER_01 24:56

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. This has been Being Human, a limited series produced by Ridley Hall with your hosts Isabel Hamley and Matt Cooper. Audio by John Lee. Well, that's it. We've done it. Six episodes on being human. We hope that you really enjoyed it. I know that we really enjoyed it. If you have any ideas, any feedback, any questions, then we would love to hear from you. So drop us an email or a message or something. You can find all of the details somewhere in the description of this podcast or on our website, ridley.cam.ac.uk. Thank you so much for listening and uh we hope that you listen to more stuff we do, I guess. Cool. Have a good day.