At the chalk face: Why we left teaching

Are you thinking of leaving teaching this year? This is our story.

In this honest and personal episode of At the Chalk Face, Craig and Dave share the story of why they eventually stepped away from full-time teaching after years in the profession. From leadership responsibilities and workload pressures to mental health, career progression, and finding a new path in education, this is a candid conversation about the realities many teachers face.

Craig reflects on the stress and burnout that led him to leave the classroom, while Dave discusses the career crossroads that made him rethink his future in school leadership. Together, they explore the challenges of modern teaching, the importance of wellbeing, and why they still remain deeply connected to education despite no longer being full-time teachers.

Whether you're considering a career change, feeling overwhelmed by the demands of teaching, or simply interested in hearing the journey behind Craig'n'Dave, this episode offers a thoughtful and relatable discussion.

💬 We'd love to hear from you. 
Have you ever considered leaving teaching? What are the biggest challenges facing educators today? Share your thoughts in the comments below.

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🔗 More from us:
Website & resources – Craigndave.org
Smart Revise – smartrevise.online


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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Are you thinking of leaving teaching this year? This is our story.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Hello and welcome to another At the Chalk face with Craig and Dave. If you're the first time here, welcome. We're both uh ex-teachers of computer science, but still very much in the uh computing sphere, uh providing services and resources to teachers to cover your subject. And if you do know who we are, welcome back. This is actually the third video in a little series we're doing on our teaching journey. So we started off in the sort of early years of teaching and how we got into it and our first experiences. Uh, we talked about promotions and different routes, both paid opportunities and volunteer and the benefits and drawbacks of each. And we're bringing our saga to a close now because we are not uh practicing teachers anymore. And that was a major decision for us because we went to this job because we love it. So we're going to talk about why we left. We have uh quite different reasons. Uh what we do now, it's still very much in education, you clearly, and um just uh you know some some of the some of the thoughts we have over where the profession is, where it's gone, where it's been, and uh maybe a chance for you to sort of reflect and give us your your thoughts and opinions. So um well, hand over to you. Anything you want to start us off, Dave, or do you just want to go into your your your your story? Because I think last time we left, I was uh a head of department and I was also a lead master teacher and a lead for school. I think you were an assistant head, weren't you, by this point? I think that's where we left us last week.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Yeah, yeah, yes, it was. And I'd sort of shared all of my other auxiliary responsibilities and everything to focus entirely on being an assistant uh head teacher at my school because it was all just getting a little bit too much having all these other responsibilities as well. And I need to focus clearly um on the school. Um, yeah, so I think the first thing I would say is although we say, you know, we have left teaching, I think what we really mean by that is we have left the payroll of a school. We no longer have a timetable to teach. It doesn't mean that we have left education, as Craig was alluding to, uh, not at all. Um we try and keep our feet firmly on the ground. So we both still go into schools uh fairly regularly, doing some consultancy, um, just having a chat to colleagues, uh sharing our resources, trialing them out um in school, um, doing a little bit of work with students here and there, um, advising A-level students, for example, on their um NEAs, doing little bits of moderation and essentially whatever our sort of local schools sort of um ask us to do if we've got capacity, then uh then we stay involved. But it's really important uh to us that as we're creating resources for you to use, that we know that they still resonate with teachers and schools and they still work in the classroom. I just want to jump in. It's really important that we uh that we do trial them and keep in touch with the profession. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Sorry to interrupt there, Dave. I just wanted to jump in very quickly. That was so important to us, wasn't it? Because one of the reasons that we started our sort of own business, you know, making and sort of selling resources and services is because we were looking at the stuff that was out there. We were buying them, we were spending our department budget, taxpayers' money, uh, getting it, opening the cover, you know, looking at the forward, oh, you know, ex-chief examiner for 12 years, ex this for nine years, blah, blah, blah. Oh, this guy's got the credentials. And then you read it and you're like, wow, when was the last time this person was in front of your bottom set year nine on a Friday afternoon? This just doesn't work. And it was fair to say, um, sorry, I've I've hijacked you. We we you might get onto this. We didn't leave teaching completely. We we phased it, didn't we? We went part-time, a bit more, and I ended up doing one day a week and eventually we've left. But we were so conscious, weren't we, that we didn't become out of touch and find ourselves five years down the line and being a resource provider that other people picked up and went, well, when was the last time they weren't a comprehensive school teaching students? So we seriously make such an effort to the point where you are still on not the payroll, but but you are on the you know the staff system of a local school, and you actually pop in and and and help sort of volunteer, you didn't get sort of a paid role to teach some of the children with our resources, watch them in action with real students and real kids. So that really is so, so, so important to us. Sorry to interrupt, want to double down on that.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

No, you're absolutely right. I am still on the staff list of a school. I I don't attend uh very regularly, but um, you know, so that I can um have freedom of the city, if you like, so I can uh you know wander around the school and uh interact with students and teachers. Um, you know, we both still have our DBS and we've gone through all those procedures and everything. So yeah, I'm still very much um attached to a school. And you're loosely attached to uh in a looser sense to your local school um as well, Craig. And I you go and visit them and do similar sorts of things to what I'm doing in in school as well. And then, you know, together we go and visit other schools in in Gloucestershire quite regularly to chat to students and sort of lead assemblies, if you like, on using smart advice effectively and doing little bits of CPD and training to teachers as well around Smart Advice and using our resources. And critically, we're still very heavily involved in the teacher training program in Gloucestershire. So we still deliver um four sessions a year to trainee teachers um about you know pedagogy and teaching, all the rest of it. So to say that we've left teaching, I just think is false. What we've done is left the full-time classroom. And as Craig's already said, that didn't just happen overnight. I mean, we'll get into the reasons about sort of why we left teaching. So they might sound obvious, right? Oh, um, you know, you left to uh to make resources and set up your own company. It it's not quite as clean as that, to be clear. It really isn't, to be honest with you. Um, but what what sort of happened as an introduction to this, and then maybe you can tell your story, Craig. Um we were both full-time teachers, albeit that we were um with leadership responsibilities as well in the school. And uh that was our full-time job. It was, you know, our sort of only source of income, apart from a few dribbles that were coming in from Craig's authoring that we talked about in the last episode. But essentially, you know, our main source of income was uh was our full-time teaching job. And we didn't just give that up overnight, uh, we did go part-time. And in fact, you went part-time a year earlier than me, Craig. I was a bit frightened of taking the leap of faith. Um, and in the end, you had to kind of convince me that it was the right thing to do. And we'll get on to that when maybe I'll talk about my story. But we did go full-time, then part-time, then really part-time, kind of, you know, one day a week and less than one day a week. And then eventually we kind of let go of the uh of the rope. And uh, Craig and Dave was the safety net underneath, I suppose. But we'll break um all that down. So let's talk about really what the driving decisions were to go and look for or do something else. We were both full-time teaching in schools, main salary. What what was the driver for changing that?

SPEAKER_02 7:36

Oh, you're coming to me. Okay. Right, okay. Uh, well, I'm gonna be very open and honest because I think lots of other teachers will uh appreciate some of the stuff I'm saying and maybe unfortunately have similar experiences. And we do joke and we're quite jovial on these episodes quite a lot, but um, there's nothing really joky or jovial about this. It was, for me, unfortunately, it was a mixture of stress, anxiety, which eventually did lead to medically diagnosed depression. Not that I uh wanted to accept that, you know, I'm not depressed, you just get on with it, very driven. Um, but uh and that's what it and that's ultimately what what drove me out the classroom. And that's such a sad situation because there's a light at the end of this tunnel. But I mean, when I started teaching, obviously I loved the teaching part, and then obviously, you know, very keen to progress, and as I said, became the head of department and took on some other additional responsibility roles. It wasn't the the the teaching, and the other thing as well is I didn't notice it happening. It actually took another colleague, uh, a much older colleague. If they're listening to this, they'll be very offended. Sorry, a colleague much closer to retirement, who um who spotted it in me and actually came and pulled me up in my classroom and said, You're not okay, Craig. And I said, What? He said, You're um you're you're you're depressed. And I went, No, I'm not. I'm just very busy. I just there's lots I've got to do. There's lots of, I haven't got time for this conversation. And effectively walked me to my office and said, You need to call a doctor, and um, I'm not gonna go until you've at least had a conversation. I was like, now I I thank this colleague a lot later down the line, not at the time, I can tell you. Uh, and of the irony is as they recognized it because they had been through the same process, and it was gradual, things chipped away at me. And I've got to be very careful what I say here because it was the pressures that was coming down uh from SLT, but I don't per se blame my SLT. In fact, my direct line manager, the deputy head, was a very close friend and colleague and had been supportive, but then they're under very strict pressures as well, and it was just the the nuisance and the nonsense. And I didn't realise, even in the 17 years that I taught, how much change things had changed, how many sort of tick boxes I was doing. And it was getting to the stage I remember, and I may have talked about it a long time ago actually, where I went to my deputy head one day, quite brazen and like I'm I'm in control and I know what I'm doing. And I said to her, These are all the things you want me to do by you know this deadline. You give me an extra two lessons off my timetable a week to discharge the duties of the head of department. I'm a team player, so I'll double that and I'll give you four, but I don't need to. So I'll give you four hours. Um so that's four hours a week, two of which you pay me for and two of which you don't. Um in that time, what's the priority of this list of things? And went, well, it all needs to do in Craig. And I went, Well, well, I can't. So what do you want me to do? Prioritize it for me. Well, it just all you just all need to do it. And I do remember her saying, because I've been quite combative. I do remember her saying, um, well, I've got crazy amounts of stuff to do as well. And I just said, that's not my problem. I've come to my line manager, yours is the head teacher. I said, Look, I cannot get all those things done in that time. I can't. And I and I'm feeling the pressure. I knew I was stressed. I didn't realise I'd unfortunately gone as far as sort of being depressed. Uh, but I said, um, I can either do all of it poorly or some of it really well. But for me to do some of it really well, I need to prioritize. And she kind of shook her head a lot and kind of I could see she could understand, but it was like, it just all needs to be done. I didn't really get a satisfactory uh resolution from that. Um, and so of course I just ploughed on. I did, I did way more than the extra two hours I'd I'd jokingly said I'd I'd I'd give the school on top of my PPA. I did as much as I could. A whole bunch of stuff was done very poorly. Some learning walks were, I'm sorry, I'm just gonna say it, dare I say it, copy and pasted from the last set of learning walks with the date changed, knowing that they'd never read them. And that annoyed me professionally. But that I had A-level students, I've got to mark their coursework. They deserve my time. I've got to plan for the GCSE. You know, there were some things that were more important than others, so I gave those the time. But I did. I did everything, and I did some of it very poorly. And I think that started to wear away at me uh as well. And yeah, it got to the point eventually, and I'm certainly not the first colleague in my school, and I certainly am not the first colleague nationally, because I saw you saw it happen. I I ended up eventually being signed off work for a period of sort of like three, four weeks, which was lovely at the start, of course. And you know, again, my head teacher, incredibly supportive of mental health and you know, other personal bereavement issues. I cannot fault our head teacher. But uh, so no one's contacting you. You cannot contact Craig at all. You mustn't email him about school. Uh, and I did everything and I felt better, but of course, then you return. And of course, then you return, and yes, they've had someone temporary, or maybe your second department stepped up, but you're back in the fire, and I didn't really tackle the I didn't really tackle the root of it uh at all. So I went back, and then what happened is about five uh five years, about five, six months later, it got to another tipping point, and within a year, I was off work again. So that's a really, really sad story, but I think it will probably resonate with an awful lot of our listeners. And I think the thing that was getting me, Dave, I've gone quite a monologue today, but you usually do, so you don't mind. Um the thing that really got me was it was that it was the lack of the actual bit I really enjoyed, the teaching in the classroom, which of course happens the further up you go. I felt the stuff I was good at, the stuff I was engaging with, I not only was doing less, but I was giving less and less effort to. I remember times when a bell would go and I'd look at my timetable to see what class I had. Oh, it's that class, and I would wing it. Now every teacher knows that. Plenty of teachers have done it. You do it on occasions, you wing it, and it maybe it's a class you've taught a lot before, and you've done the schema learn a lot before, and you know, but I since you remember walking into a classroom and going, right, okay, year nine. So let's start, let's recap. What did we do last week? That wasn't for them. That was for me. Ah, yes, we did, didn't we? Yes, we did the formulas in the spreadsheet. Now, of course, your brain kicks in, right, we'll pick up from here, I'll do charts and graphs today and we'll do blah, blah, blah. But that's not the service students deserve. I didn't feel good about being in a situation where I hadn't even prepared for the next class. That's not why I went into teaching. And then that eats away at you. It's it's very demoralizing. It's very demoralizing. And said eventually that was uh sort of the reason I decided to leave teaching because it was affecting my health, my home life, you know, my mental health, physical health, all the rest of it. Now, fortunately, this was around the time that we were being semi-successful setting up our business. We'd started to sell our own resources, it was doing okay. Um, and there was a natural progression there uh where I could be like, oh, well, if I could just take the head of department away and just step down a bit, that might help. Um, but I appreciate how, and again, this might sound very negative, how much the teaching profession can capture you and then you can't find a way out. I didn't want a way out, but I needed a way out. And I've seen plenty of teachers in a similar situation that go, but I don't have any way out. What else can I do? This is what I'm trained at, this is what I'm good at, this is what I know, this is what I spent my life doing. It is not a badly paid job, especially when you're on the upper pay spine, maybe with a TLR. Everyone jokes about the holidays, but yes, you do get, you know, the 14 weeks' holidays. You know, it comes with a very decent public sector pension. You don't get anywhere near than the private sector. And then all of a sudden, the profession feels like a weight if you're trying to escape. And that obviously, for those teachers, can make that feel worse. I I can't get out. I can't go and get a supermarket job, it won't pay the bills. I've got a mortgage to pay, I've got a kid off university, blah, blah, blah. So you then I see teachers in that trap scenario. How do I get out? And it's a shame the profession has got to the stage where we're seeing so much attrition, and then uh teachers being forced to stay in the profession who really maybe feel like they don't want to be there because then the students aren't getting the version of the teacher that they deserve. So that's all very, that's all very sort of negative and and doom and gloom. I just want to put a little light on on the end of there. So obviously, I we were fortunate and our business was starting to pick up, and it was just you and I in the early days, and I was like, okay, I can go part-time, I can drop the TLR and use that money, and that helped. And as the kind of business scaled up, we scaled down. And I do remember in my last year at my sort of main school where I had been head of department, and now a chap that I'd been head of department was was my boss, but I loved it. I'm like, yeah, you can do the learning walks, you can do that. It's like now you see why I kept moaning at you. I kind of relieved myself, but I had a plan in mind that I was going to leave completely. I had a date in mind. This was my last year, and I remember grammar school down the road, an all-girls grammar school, said, Could you come in and just give us some advice on setting up our first ever A-level computer science class? Now they fibbed me, and if they're watching, you know who you are. I went in for that meeting thinking it was just a bit of friendly consultation advice, which I did for a lot of my local schools, especially as a Castmaster teacher. What it actually was was an opportunity to try and poach me and get me to set up their A-level because they've never had one. And I turned around and went, no. I already have in my head that this is my last year of teaching. I've got a successful other option here. I think it's at a stage where I can leave the safety net of teaching. I was determined, I'm going to leave. I'm just haven't handed my resignation in yet, but this is it. Uh anyway, I don't know how. Fantastic bargaining, well done. You should be on the UN. You know who you are. Uh, but they uh they convinced me to actually go there. And what happened was something marvelous, Dave. Because I could be quite, I guess arrogance the wrong word, but quite arrogant and bulgy. I knew that school needed me, I didn't need them. I'd made my mind to leave. I had a date and I had something to fall back on that was doing well. So I said to them, if you want me to come in and help set up your A level, that's all I want to do. So I'm a member of staff, I will teach your year 12 class. How many lessons is that? That's six lessons. So I'll come and do six lessons of year 12 A level only. I don't want a tutor group. I don't want to have to attend all the inset days, you know, I don't I don't want any of that responsibility. I want to come in, I want to teach. Obviously, I do all the marking and preparation and stuff that goes on with that class, but other than that, that's one I do. They said yes. I said I'd give them one year, which was year 12, and then they'd need to obviously replace me. So the 12s would have become 13s, they'd need to replace me. Anyway, they got me for three years, basically. Uh they got me for three years. Because what happened is once I was stripped completely, not a little bit, but completely of all that other stuff. And all I had to do was go in and teach the subject I enjoy. I fell back in love with the profession and remembered when I joined. And it was lovely to have that swang song. And I do thank that school because I almost didn't take it. And I would have left teaching with quite a negative memory, I think, of the last few years, which would have been a shame because it, yeah, without saying I'll finish now, Dave, but without being corny, it is a noble profession. And um, you know, when it's good, it's great. Uh, but there are occasions where, unfortunately, and the case of me, you know, when it's bad, it can get very bad. And I know that's the case for an awful lot of high-pressure jobs. So there is my story. It does have a happy ending, and then, you know, here we are now, sort of what I think in our fourth year, completely out of teaching, maybe third, fourth year. And uh, I do miss that bit, and we do get the opportunity to go in. But yeah, there's my story. There's why I ultimately left. And I feel grateful that we did have this resource company and these services to fall back on. Because um, you know, and I'm grateful to everyone that it's carried on being successful because I know that's not always the case. So there you go. Right, that got a bit deep, Dave. Sorry about that.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

No, not at all. I mean, that that's the purpose of this episode. You know, people want to know the story um because they go, they go through the same things, right? Um, we've said it often enough. We are no different to other teachers out there. We've experienced the same stresses, the same challenges, the same successes, um, the same life stories, the same um emotions. Yeah right. Uh we are no different to anybody else um that's out there. So um I think that's why it's helpful for other people to hear part of our story, because it's you know, it it's it's not all it's not all rosy. Um people I think like to hear that. So yeah, so that that's that was a very uh honest, um, honest reflection. And you're right, if I can just sort of play back to you just a couple of aspects of that. Um I thought it was really, really honest when you said that your teaching was genuinely suffering because you weren't even thinking about what you were supposed to be teaching with that next class, you were just falling back on your years of experience, your knowledge of the curriculum to, as you say, wing it.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

But it was really, really uncomfortable. And and I know that's not the kind of teacher you are because, as we said in the previous episode, I trained you, I know how diligent you you were, I know how much. You wanted to get it right. And I know how much effort that you put into planning lessons and schemes of learning because you were able to successfully sell them to other schools. And it enabled you to become a castmaster teacher. And those resources that you're selling to other schools, we were able to build on that in order to create resources for Craig and Dave that we now sell to other schools. So, you know, you were the seed of Craig and Dave in that sense. And so I I know how much that must have kind of hurt in a way, but as you say, it kind of just kind of caught up with you without you even noticing it happened. And all of a it's like the tide rising, and then all of a sudden you're on the sandbank, there's no way out, and the tide continues to rise.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Yeah, it compounds the problem because you know you're only in that situation because you're so overworked and overstressed. So then you you do it and you wing it. But because you do care, and that's not what you need to give, you just feel worse because of that. And of course, it's a self-perpetuating spiral, and it's its whole, it's not a case of, oh well, I'm I'm happy to be lazy enough and wing it, I'll just make this easy for myself. It actually makes the situation worse, not better.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Oh, absolutely. I mean, you're not going to get into a into a state of depression if you don't care. Yeah. If you don't care, you turn up, you do whatever while no one's watching, and you pick up the salary at the end of the month. But you're not that kind of person. You cared, and because you cared and you wanted to do all these things that were quite unreasonable, really, um, that your SLT were imposing on you. And the reason they were imposing on you, you know, you've been very, very kind to your SLT and head teacher, and I know these people too. Yeah. Um the reality is, let look this is going to sound really cold.

unknown 23:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

But if they were leading and managing that school as well as you think they were, that school would not have been at one point in special measures and at another point in requires improvement, and then on the path to good and becoming good, they would never have been on that really stressful pathway. And it is a really stressful pathway, that. And then imposing all that stress on their teachers if they were able to lead and manage the school appropriately. I'm sorry, I'm just going to put it out there. I was fortunate, I worked in schools that were already good or outstanding. And we didn't have the pressures that you had. You know, I looked at all the paperwork that you were being expected to do, all the lesson observations that you were having, and all the box-ticking exercises that you had to do, all the initiatives actually made no difference to students on the ground because you were already in your department, in your subject, in your classroom, getting exceptional results. You were not the problem in the school. That's the thing. You were the highest performing department in the school, right? So it none of this was your fault, but it was being imposed on you. And what senior leaders weren't um good enough at doing is recognizing those departments that needed to improve and those that that really didn't, and then having a slightly different approach. And what they often say is unfortunately, and this is how you got caught up in it, the path from requires improvement to good is consistency. Everybody doing the same thing and following the same instructions and initiatives. But the pathway to from good to outstanding, how you become the outstanding school, is to let go and allow the teachers the freedom and the creativity that brought them into the profession in the first place. It's not to say that those structures and initiatives don't matter, but they provide a framework and a scaffolding that allows the teachers to climb up. Whereas in a school like yours, that was, you know, in special measures at one point and then requires improvement and good, that scaffolding is not a framework for teachers to climb up. It's a straitjacket. It's an impossible it it it's a well, I don't even know how to describe it. But the point I'm making is that I I'm sorry, it I know that you had a lot of affection for your senior leaders, but if they did their job properly, you would not have got depressed. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

Fair enough. Anyway, yeah, go then. Give us your story because yours is obviously very different to mine. But you you ended up leaving as well, as you alluded to a year after me.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I'm not I just wanted to sort of say to the teachers out there, really, that you know, if you are feeling like you can't do the job or you don't want to do the job, then ask whose fault that is, really. You know, it is it really your fault? I think that's yeah, that's my reflection. And maybe you just need to change schools. I I said to Craig on a number of occasions, look, you know, I although you think you're happy there, you're only happy there because you've been there for a long time. You're comfortable with it.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

And what you really need is more is a new challenge. And if you take a new challenge, that will reinvigorate you. And I remember you saying to me at the time, Dave, I can't take on a new challenge. I'm stressed enough with what I've got to do here. And I'm like, and I said, Yeah, but you'll have less to do if you take on a new challenge because you're already exceptional at your job. You just need to find the right score for you. You think you found it, but you didn't. Yeah. Uh anyway. Um, you know, that was that to my story.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

Sorry, a change is as good as a rest, they say, don't they? And of course, that's what I alluded to. I got that swan song at the end. I mean, I know it's quite an extreme example for me, but I did fall back in love. So anyway, yeah, go on, Dave.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

I think actually that girls' grammar school, if you'd have started there, you'd still be there. But I I actually kind of firmly believe that because you know, it was an outstanding school, one of the best schools in the country, and certainly in the southwest. And so they didn't have they didn't have the same stresses at all. I mean, we you know, we we both taught there um at the end of our careers as it happened, uh, because you wanted to do less. They wanted to do more. And it's like, how are we gonna how are we gonna do this? And I'm like, well, go on and I'll do the bit that Craig doesn't want to do. Um so we ended up actually in the same school at the very, very end, both both part-time and both doing the A level. But um it was a completely different school to the school that you had been working in, and it was a different school to the school that I had been working in, and not because it was a grammar school, you know, teaching grammar school children is a different challenge, right? Let's not get into that in this episode. Maybe that's something we can talk about in the future. But um, the demands from the senior leadership team, because they were an outstanding school, they already had the philosophy of we let go, we don't clamp down. And that's what makes them outstanding. Anyway, look, my story. Yeah. So um I'd been an assistant head for over five years at this point. And maybe I should have climbed the ladder more quickly than I did. I was never really that career oriented. I just wanted to be happy at work, successful, uh, knowing I was making a difference, getting recognized for making that difference, and being involved in some decision making so that I could make a difference. And really that was my driver. It was never about me uh, you know, climbing the ladder as quickly as I can, getting a fat cat salary or whatever it happened to be. It wasn't really my intention. So I'd kind of got myself back into this comfortable position again, right? Where I'd been assistant head for over five years. I'd led lots of initiatives, I'd overseen lots of subjects, lots of year heads, I'd had a lot of success, I'd also had a lot of challenges, I'd learnt a lot along the way. And you could say that I was ripe for the next step. So, what is the next step? Well, a deputy uh headship is the next step. Although, you know, some schools might have said, well, you spent a long time being an assistant head teacher, you know, but why didn't you take this step sooner? But I felt I could justify that. It was fine. Anyway, uh the deputy head resigned at my school, so it created that natural vacancy for a deputy headship. And uh I remember a meeting that we got called into by the head teacher who essentially said that it's going to be advertised externally. Um, but amongst my senior leadership team, you are all exceptional candidates. I would anticipate a number of you, if not all of you, at the assistant head teacher level applying for this. Um we will we will go through the process, but I'm just outlining to you what the process is, when it's going to happen, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, good. And I think he thought at the time that I was going to apply. He certainly gave me the impression that he anticipated my application. But I knew in my heart he was not going to give me the job. So he would put me through a two-day interview, probably, with all that pain to ultimately then say, you know, sorry you haven't got the job. And the reason that I knew that in my heart for two reasons. One was because um a colleague of mine who was also an assistant head, and to be fair, there were two other um assistant heads as well as me. And they were both exceptional. I thought they were both exceptional in their different ways. Um no, there were three others. That's it. Three others. All three. Sorry, if you're listening to this, you know who you are. You were all exceptional, right? All my colleagues. I looked around the table and I just thought, I'm I'm not better than any of you. Yeah. You know, we're all good at this job in our various ways. Um, but I had my eye on one particular person who I knew the head teacher got on very well with because they were rugby lads. Right? They shared the passion for rugby. A PE teacher who was an assistant headteacher, who had made a difference in the school in all the right ways. I'd made a difference in the school too, but it's in different ways, perhaps in ways that maybe didn't resonate in quite the same way with the head teacher. I'm not sure. I'm probably being unfair at this point. But if I had made it a point over my career of challenging my superiors, yes. If they had an idea about something, then it wasn't a case of all black hat thinking, but I would challenge them. I would try and get them to justify that perspective, how that was going to make a difference to our school. What about doing this? Is this the thing that really matters most? And having a sort of a laser focus, if you like, on those kinds of thoughts. And it brought me into a lot of conflict. And they're I'm just gonna say this right now. As if the head teachers out there tell you that they don't want a yes man, they want someone that can challenge them, someone that can bring them a fresh perspective, all this kind of thing, it is waffle. What they want is a yes man. They want someone that will just stand behind all the decisions that they make, not question them, see them through in their entirety, and protect them from any flap they're likely to get from other colleagues. I think ultimately that's that's really what they want, despite what they say. Um because the evidence, the the evidence of that, I think, is there. But anyway, I remember a very particular awkward meeting that I'd had with the head teacher where I was overseeing um heads of year and heads of subject, and attendance was a big initiative in our school. Not that it was a massive problem, but it could be improved. Um, and there were some hard-to-reach students and hard-to-reach parents in a school that was otherwise pretty good. Our results were also quite stagnant, if I'm honest. Although we were a good school, we weren't really making the progress academically that you would anticipate, which was surprising given the senior leadership team that we had. For whatever reason, we weren't really sort of breaking through. But in my opinion, it was because we weren't focused on the right things. And I was vocal about some of this, and it brought me into these conflicts, as I said. Uh anyway, um, so there was this one meeting, um, and and our head teacher was uh was a maths teacher. So it was all about the numbers, right? Facts and not the feelings is kind of how I would describe them. And uh attendance is a big issue. So he'd already given us a briefing, um, you know, several weeks ago that attendance was a thing. We were all going to look at it and we were all going to come up with ideas of how we were going to improve attendance in our year groups and share the best practice and drive forward together and all those kinds of things. I mean, all great. I mean, you know, the initiative was spot on, the approach was spot on. I'm not criticizing the head teacher in that sense. Uh, but I remember meeting it was our regular line management meeting. They happened every week. It wasn't something that was a surprise to me. So I went in, you know, expecting the agenda and what we were going to talk about and those sorts of things. And he just came out with um, what's the percentage of attendance in year eight? And I said, uh it it it just caught me off guard, you know. I I had I knew it, but I didn't know it off the top of my head in the sense that the question had caught me out. Yeah. And so I was a bit flustered. Uh and I had all my paperwork for attendance and everything, but it would require me to do a little sort of mini shuffle through my paperwork, find the figure, you know, talk about it. It's not that I wasn't prepared. And uh it just put me on the spot, you know, what's the attendance in year eight? And I was like, um, well, you know, it it's it's approximately, you know, X percent. I I won't reveal the actual number. It's approximately um, you know, X percent at the moment. But I think um the number's one thing. I think what's more important is that we increase it, that we improve it. So I'd like to talk to you about some of the student stories and what I'm doing at the moment with those particular students and parents and how we're driving that figure up and uh what we might expect to see in a few months' time as a result of this work, which we can then evaluate the impact of. Um, and he said, no, no, I'm not interested in that. What what what's the percentage attendance in year eight? I was like to a certain extent, that's not relevant. What we want to do is improve attendance. Let's talk about what we're doing, what impact it's having, whether we think it's going to work, what we can learn from the work the other assistant heads are doing with their year groups. And, you know, you're a head teacher, you're experienced, you you help me, you know. What do you think we can do to kind of improve it even further? You know, let's have that professional dialogue and conversation. No, David, I'm not interested in all that. What's the percentage attendance in year eight? And I said, well, off the top of my head, I don't know, but I've got it in my paperwork. If you give me a second, I can tell you. And he said, no. He said, Don't you think it's important that uh the assistant head overseeing year eight knows the percentage attendance in year eight? I said, no. I said, I'd probably expect my head of year to know that number, but what I'd expect you to expect me to know is how are we improving it? You know, what's our intent? What's our implementation of the strategy? What's the impact of the strategy? That's what I would expect you to expect me to know, not a number. A number's arbitrary. It doesn't matter whether it's 20, 40, 60, 80. What matters is how are we going to improve it, how much are we going to improve it, and how do we know that that's going to work? And he said, I know. He said, um, I I think it's um I think it's shocking that one of my assistant heads wouldn't know the percentage attendance in the year groups that they oversee. And it was at that moment that I knew, A, I was not going to get a job, but B, I couldn't work for this man. It wasn't the first time we came into conflict either, but I'm not going to go through loads of other stories. The point is, we were just not quite on the same wavelength, which was a shame because 90% of the time he was really, really supportive. He seemed to like what I was doing. He gave me his full support. Even if I made wrong decisions, he was still there and he had my back. And you'd expect that of a good leader. So he had quite a lot of qualities of good leadership. But wow, there were some sharp edges. And it was because he was so inexperienced. He it was his first headship in a massive school. He'd only been a head teacher for one or two years. He was inexperienced, he didn't like to admit it. He was not prepared to kind of make mistakes with us. You know, things were our fault as opposed to his fault. Right. And I I yeah, I'm not going to go too far into that. But but it but it sparked those emotions in me that were like, I was really angry, I was really, really cross. And it actually took him four hours to get me out of this state of anger that I now had with him. Right. And uh I I've never I mean I've been upset quite a few times in my teaching career, but not to that extent. I was livid, I I I literally was in a state of rage. Uh I wasn't shouting, you know, I remained 100% professional, but my goodness was I red faced, and my goodness was I, you know, coming out. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, so I knew I wasn't going to get the job. And so I was like, am I gonna let this man put me through two days of interviews? Because he couldn't really argue with what I was actually doing on a day-to-day, right? So, was I gonna let him put me through two days of interviews to then turn around and say you're not getting the job, which I which I knew he I kind of felt he would enjoy the kicking. Right. I'm probably being hugely unfair, but as I say, feelings not facts, right? Yeah. So anyway, I thought I'm at a crossroads here. If I'm not going to apply for this job, which is my natural progression, and I'm not going to apply for it because I A, I think there are other candidates that are more likely to get it, and B, I'm not sure I even want to work with this man anyway. How about getting a deputy headship in another school? And I was like, I love this school. I don't I don't know that I want to have a deputy headship in another school. You know, it's a bit like sort of your situation, really, in the school you were at. I kind of was in love with the school, and I just not the not the leader, but the school, and I was just like, uh, you know, I didn't really want to do it, and I knew the pain of it. As it happened, at exactly the same time as all this was going on. Um, Raspberry Pi were making their learning platform, Isaac Computing, for the National Center of Computing Education. Oh, yes. And meanwhile, Craig was making a few resources and we were making a few resources together. We'd started making some videos, put them on YouTube, and that YouTube channel kind of got us noticed. And so Raspberry Pi approached us directly and said, we'd be really interested in you making videos for our Isaac Computing platform. Is it something that you'd be interested in doing? I knew that I couldn't do it with my school responsibilities as well. It would be too demanding. But I really wanted to do it because I was like, I miss the subject while I'm sort of line managing the head of DTP, and you know, line managing the head of year 11. And it's like it's it took me a long way away from what I came into the profession to do, which was to teach A level computer science. And so I really missed the subject. I I missed focusing on the teaching like you. And so um That opportunity was one that I didn't want to let go. So I said to the head teacher, I'm not going to apply for the deputy headship. I didn't give him all the reasons why. But I said there is another opportunity that takes me a little bit back closer to my subject. And I'm more interested in doing some of this work. But it does mean I would need to go part-time. So can I be part-time assistant head teacher and part-time doing something else, you know, with Craig and Dave to work for Raspberry Pi? And uh he said no. He said um no, I need my assistant head teachers to be completely focused on the school. Uh I that's the the only priority, and uh I'm not going to let you do that, that part-time. And I was uh uh I was a at a crossroads. Now you had just resigned from your position at what I call challenging school to go to the grammar school. So a vacancy had arisen for your part-time role. So I thought, haha, hang on a minute. I can apply for your job. And that that's that's exactly what I did. And I and I and I got it. I I kind of got your job in in your old school. Um the head teacher, but but it was you know, the head teacher knew why. And because I was very open with the head teacher. And I said, look, I only want this part-time job, and the reason I want it is because I want to focus on growing my own business, and with uh, you know, I've got potential of getting a contract with the Raspberry Pi Foundation for the National Centre of Computing Education. So this is what I'm after. If it works for you, it works for me. Um, you know, but it is there's something we can make happen here. And as you said, your old head teacher was a lovely guy. And he was like, Absolutely, David, we can make we can make this happen. Anyway, um, so my head teacher, I think at my school was absolutely flawed. Uh, and he was like, What do you mean you're leaving? I said, Well, I'm leaving. You know, you can't give me what I want. You're not gonna give me you if you turn around now and offer me the deputy headship, then maybe I'll stay. But I've already said to uh another head teacher, I'm going to um accept his job. I'm a man of my words, I and I I'm gonna accept his job. So, you know, and my head teacher said, Oh no, no, no, don't don't don't leave. We we can work this out, we can work this out, you know. What let's have a conversation about what it would take. And I was like, sorry, you did have your chance. Oh, you didn't take it. And you know, I was very bullshy at this point because I I'd already secured my job and my future with you. So I was like, nah. Um uh that's that. And I'll tell you what really got my goat is he then allowed another assistant headteacher to go part-time. Oh, I didn't know. I was like, oh, so you'll do it for other people, but you won't do it for me. And I think ultimately, unfortunately, that that was the story. Now, occasionally I do see my old head teacher from time to time. Our crafts pop uh, sorry, start again, our paths cross occasionally um at uh my local golf club and uh and other places, and uh we occasionally go to his current school to um do a little bit of work sometimes with the staff over there. We've we've sponsored their robotics club and done other things. So I'm still in a little bit of contact from time to time, and you know, we get on really well. Um you know, socially in that sense. It's just professionally I don't know, we were on a different page, and so crossroads and an opportunity, and I was like this is this is this is what I want to do. I was really, really nervous about doing it because the good thing with teaching is you've got that safety net, you know. Yeah, and uh I thought it was a job for life and a decent pension, and that that was what I was gonna do. And in the end, you know, that Craig and Dave went, you know, from strength to strength and got more and more successful. The Raspberry Pi contract came to an end, but it had opened doors for other things, and we continue to move forward. And and in the end, you said, Look, Dave, I I'm now you know, full-time working on our own company, you're part-time because you're still at the school. You we kind of need to have a bit of a conversation about that. And I was like, Craig, you can't take my safety net away from me. And you were like, Dave, entrepreneurs take risks. So if you don't do it now, when are you gonna do it? And I was like, Craig, if you can guarantee my salary, if you can guarantee to me I'm not gonna lose out financially, then I'll do it. Craig was like, it'll be fine. And to be fair, you produced a load of spreadsheets because you left a good spreadsheet, you still love a good spreadsheet. You put together a load of spreadsheets and said, Dave, I've modelled your entire income. Come and have a look at this.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

I did, yeah. And I've all been a little bit more than that. And I was like, okay. Yeah, and I've I've modelled future projections for the next one to five years on a best case, average case, and worst case. Basically, for an A-level teacher, I big o notationed his future to prove to him that it would be okay. And fingers crossed it has been.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

And we're interested in your story. If you'd like to share something, maybe not quite as long as what we shared with you, in the comments below. We're really interested. What are the stresses? What are the strains? What's keeping you in teaching? What's causing you to leave teaching? Join the conversation.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

There you are. Thank you very much, everyone. We'll see you next week for another episode about the Joltface.