At the chalk face: Why do pupils stop enjoying computing?

At the chalk face: Why do pupils stop enjoying computing?

Are students losing interest in computer science teaching? 
We examine the root causes of disengagement in the computing classroom.

Craig and Dave, former computer science teachers, explore the reality of student engagement in computing. Many educators assume students simply stop enjoying the subject, but we question whether the issue stems from a lack of initial engagement when they first start learning.

We break down the common pitfalls in computing education that might be causing students to switch off. By analysing the teaching computer science approach, we offer a perspective on how to keep the subject relevant and exciting from day one. 

Whether you are a new teacher or a veteran, understanding these dynamics is crucial for a healthy cs classroom strategy.

We highlight how to refine your computing curriculum to maintain curiosity and look at specific strategies to ensure students remain invested in their learning path rather than burning out early.


If you teach computer science, work in education, or just care about the future of tech skills, this one is a must-watch.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Do students stop enjoying computing or do they never enjoy it from the start?

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Hello and welcome back to another At the Chalk Face with myself, uh Craig and my colleague Dave. Uh so we both taught computer science in Gloucestershire for many, many years, and now we run an educational resource company providing everything you need in order to deliver and teach the subject of computer science. Uh, but if you already know that because you're a returning uh visitor, then uh thank you very much for watching or indeed listening to us. So today uh the title of the session is Why Do People Stop Enjoying Computing? Well, I don't think they do, Dave. It's the most fascinating solid on the curriculum. So uh end of episode, right?

unknown 0:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Well, of course, students in our classrooms always enjoy computing and they never want to leave us, you know, through Key Stage 3, GCSE onto A level. And uh, you know, I'm being very uh flippant, but there are loads of teachers out there that will be listening to this thinking, well, my students do enjoy computing because I I make it interesting, I make it enjoyable. And actually, Dave, as you say, the students do want to continue into GCSE and they do want to go into A level because they know I'm going to be teaching them, they know what experience they're going to get, and they absolutely love it. And I actually, do you know what, Craig? That that that is a thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Yeah, of course it is. And I was being flippant, but you know, this is a wider problem to do with secondary scores. And this is what we're going to kind of get into really, because this isn't just our subject, although we're focusing obviously on computing as our specialism. Um, we've got a great quote here. David Thomas, CEO of Axiom Maths, makes the following claim. By the summer term of year seven, students are far less likely to say they enjoy maths than they would have done in year six. And you know, we we see this, and we so commonly just um we're kind of a bit blasé, aren't we? Oh, well, it's teenagers being teenagers, they're all keen as kids, they're all keen in year six. They get to secondary school and the hormones kick in, and you know, year nine is joked as that kind of awful year. They're a bit keen in year seven, and they lose interest in year eight, and then when they start to specialise at GCNA level, they get more interested. But year nine's the low, that's in that teenage low. But we're not doing uh a service there, I would argue, Dave. And it was, you know, uh David Thomas and the researchers identified five key areas. This is why I'd like to start, five key problems that he identified, which is to why we seem to get this switch off, which we far too easy, as I say, just pass off as oh, they're growing up, they're becoming teenagers. So I'm I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna go sorry, go on, Dave.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

No, I was just gonna say, yeah, let's let's look at um each of the five points he raises and just spend a little bit of time on on each of them and sort of discuss our experiences because as you say, David Thomas is talking about maths. His article was about students uh losing engagement with maths through year seven, uh, which then perpetuates through key stage three. And when I read the article, I was really interested to think about does what he says apply to computing as well? And is it the reason why the number of students that are studying uh GCSE computer science is in decline? And I don't know if you're aware of this, Craig, but something else that I read uh recently over the last couple of days was that um 10,000 students fewer are now studying uh the subject at key stage four than they were a couple of years ago. So it feels like there's a decline. And I and I just thought to myself, hmm, I wonder why there's a decline. And is there something in what David Thomas is saying about maths that also applies to computing at key stage three? So let's go through the five things that he says are the problems, and let's think about whether we think each of those applies to computing and indeed our own experience in the classroom. Let's do that.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I just before we do, I was just gonna add on what you just said there. You're you're right. We saw the numbers in computing increase every year until until the year before last. Out of the first ever year we saw drop, and you know, we do monitor these figures because they're out in the public domain. Um, and we were, well, that's just a one-year drop. That's not a trend. But we've just seen the figures from this year, haven't we? And ooh, well, two data points is a statistician would probably say that's not a trend, but there's now two points going down. And of course, my argument here when we look at these is although there might be a trend that number are going down on an in at a macro level, at a micro level at your school, you can completely defy those odds and reverse those. And that's what's important to you as a teacher, because if you can't do that in year seven, eight, and nine, you don't get the interest in GCSE, and then that A-level class you want doesn't materialize. So, yeah, absolutely. You can reverse this trend, but yeah, as you say, let's look at these five points. So the first one he says is a drop in engagement happens mid-year spring term. That's the that's the first one. What's what's your experience with that, Dave? Is that what is that what is that what you saw?

SPEAKER_00 5:29

No, but I think that's because we're on a different timeline to maths. So if you think about maths, they have say four, five lessons a week, possibly, of maths, that's going to vary a little bit from school to school, but there's no denying that they have at least four times as much maths as they do in computing, and in many schools it will be much wider than that. So I think it just probably kicks in later. So whereas um David says that between Christmas and Easter of year seven, the enjoyment in maths um starts to decline quite significantly. I think we've got a longer honeymoon period simply because we only have one lesson a week. And in my own experience, I found that year seven generally enjoy computing for the whole year, and then I notice a change when they come back after the summer holiday into year eight. They seem to be um much more comfortable with the school environment. I think maybe that's a factor. Um, they certainly seem to be a lot more arrogant, and things start to kind of go downhill for me during year eight. I know everyone talks about year nine being the difficult year, but for me, I often found year eight to be the trickiest for whatever reason. I think I just assumed they would have the same level of engagement and enjoyment from year seven. And then it came to me as a bit of a shock in year eight because actually I noticed quite a significant decline in their um application to the subject in year eight. And I think I remember being a bit frustrated with myself thinking, this is supposed to happen in year nine, not in year eight. And uh and that's my experience. I don't know about you.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Yeah, no, I I won't labor the point. Mine is broadly, broadly the same. Uh, you know, year sevens are keenly engaged, and the the observation you make there about one lesson a week, and that's if you're lucky in some schools. Some schools you might get a 12-week car or so along with DT on one term. So there's not really time for them to drop off uh like there is in maths. So it might my experience is broadly the same. I found the the interest level in the subject kind of dipped, you know, uh, when we got to year A. So, broadly speaking, what we're saying is that first point is not something that we largely control. This next one, in fact, the next couple, uh, these are ones where I think you can be in control as a teacher. So that the next um problem he identified that was causing this sort of drop-off in interest enjoyment was a mismatch in lesson difficulty, and specifically mentions repetition versus pace. Right. Well, this is something where you you can be really in control. I don't want to jump the gun. I know we're gonna get on to later, sort of like, you know, what adolescent adolescents in adolescents increasingly need, what it is they they need to kind of thrive and enjoy as they grow up and stop being children, and and the sort of constrictions that secondary school naturally puts on them and why it causes some of these problems. But as a teacher, you can overcome these in your own individual classroom. So, yeah, he says the mismatch in lesson difficulty, repetition versus pace. And I can see why, if this is wrong, you're just gonna switch off students. Now I never saw this. That means um no, hang on, I'm being really arrogant there. I did see this occasionally, depending on what mood I was in and where I my you know my headspace at the time and how much pressure I had, but on the whole, I didn't. I can certainly see why this would cause a problem, Dave. What about you?

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Yeah, yeah. So it's this balancing act between reteaching the basics and that boring students who already understand the content, and then moving too quickly, which then can overwhelm others. And so students end up experiencing both boredom and stress, which reduces the enjoyment. And I can see how that happens um in maths. Does it apply to computing? I think it does. And I think one of the issues that we've got again in computing is that when they come from primary school, they've had such mixed experiences. Some primary schools spend uh quite a lot of time on computing, they really enthuse their pupils in computing, and they might have teachers there that are really enthused about the subject. Well, those pupils are at a massive advantage when they come into year seven against the other pupils that come from another school where maybe computing was sort of barely touched upon. You know, maybe they got the tablets out occasionally, played a few maths games or whatever they did. But computing as a subject, um, they barely touched the national curriculum. Um, they paid lip service to it. And so those students are at a massive disadvantage when they come into year seven. So you end up in this situation where some um pupils think, oh, I've done this already. I mean, something like Scratch, you know, comes to mind here, where you get some pupils coming in and they're like, Oh, we've already done Scratch, we know all about this. And then there'll be other pupils that are completely bamboozled by Scratch because they might have had a little go on it through primary, just so they can tick the box and say they've covered the national curriculum, but they never really got under the skin of it and really kind of invested a lot of time in it. And so that manifests itself in your classroom because you've got some students that are so keen and ready to move on quickly, and you're not able to satisfy them unless you really thought about your lesson planning carefully. And then you've got other students that can barely use a keyboard and mouse because their only experience has been on a tablet, and you've got this massive problem um in a year seven computing classroom, which sort of evens out a little bit by the time you get to the end of the year, I would suggest. But um, yeah, I think some students can get bored very quickly, and I think some students can get overwhelmed very quickly, and that's a challenge, I think, for a year seven um practitioner in computing.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Yeah, absolutely. And you make an interesting point there about the fact that obviously in primary school, you're in that singular class with your your main teacher that travels with you. Yes, you may have different experiences and specialist days and other teachers doing things for you, but you know, you're there and you have that same experience. Uh, and then not only do you get thrown into lots of different subjects with lots of different teachers, but at the same time, then as a teacher, we are receiving, as you just pointed out, students from a large number of feeder primary schools, all who have had their own different experiences. And this will be you'd hope that most students will have had the same core experience from English and maths and science, the core subjects, but for the other subjects, especially computing, that can be so varied.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

So you're right. I might be being a bit unfair though, Craig, when I sort of reflect on maths. I'm I'm almost suggesting that maths has a level playing field when the students come up into year seven. That's not true, right? I'm not trying to suggest that the maths teaching is easier because all the students are starting from the same baseline, because clearly there's a huge amount of uh difference as well in maths. I think the point I'm really trying to make again is that at least the maths experience has been quite consistent at primary. And so, yes, some students will be behind, some will be further ahead, some will be roughly in the right place. Um, but I think it's um, you know, really magnified in computing, I think is what I was trying to say.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

No, absolutely. I was going to use the word exacerbated and then realize I'm not sure I can pronounce it correctly, but anyway, I've done it now. But yes, you you're right, it's the same issues as math and the core subjects, but I think that problem is definitely magnified, as you said. And this leads very nicely on to the third problem he identified, which was loss of confidence. And of course, you can see that now and how the gap starts to widen as well. You talked about scratch, and I'd thought of that one as soon as you come in. Yeah, I can't think of a secondary school that probably doesn't do some block-based programming scratch unit, and typically they do it in year seven. Uh we did a great introduction before you get on to sort of text-based programming. Uh, you it was chalk and cheese, it cut your classroom down the middle. Some who'll be completely baffled and baboozled and have no idea. Others are like, Oh, we're going through this, and they already want to show you their great scratch program they've done at primary school that they've they've got on their OneDrive account in year seven, and like, what? Uh and then, of course, you have this disparity, and that can be very difficult for teachers to to manage. And the ones that feel less able, less confident, become more disenfranchised. So, this loss of confidence, and of course, it's not related to just scratch, uh, it's you know, it extends itself across the whole field of the subject. Those have had a much richer uh offering of computing at primary school, um, I would say hold on to that confidence and enjoyment of the subject longer, but it causes an amplification then, that kind of um what's the word I'm after? Not disparity, but inequality between students. Like, well, I just don't get it. So, so it starts to amplify itself here, especially when we're talking about application software. So, yeah, loss of confidence was was one of the five problems he identified as why you know students don't enjoy maths. Now, how would you say that translated to your experience in in year seven in computing?

SPEAKER_00 15:23

I think it can also work the other way as well. Sometimes you get pupils that haven't had a great experience of primary school, barely touched a computer, uh, had a little dabble with scratch, really never quite understood it. They come up to year seven, and because all of a sudden, oh, we actually have a dedicated lesson of computing every single week, and it's a subject that they sort of really sort of want to resonate with, that they they love it and they lap it up and uh they take the extracurricular opportunities and that gap closes extremely quickly. That can happen as well. But for me, what I tend to notice, and I'm sure you experience the same thing, is that in year seven, if you ask the students, for example, right, hands and keyboard, hands off the keyboards and mice, um, switch your monitors off, or come to the front, or whatever mechanism you've got to grab their attention, they respond extremely quickly. And um, it's very easy, the classroom management, generally speaking. Um and then what tends to happen, you know, you ask a question, they put their hand up, you know, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, they've still got that sort of primary school uh thing about them, which is lovely to see, you know, they're kind of jumping out of their chairs to try and please you. And then what tends to happen for me anyway is again, when when you get to year eight, there's an increasing reluctance. And some of the pupils are still in that kind of almost primary mode. It hasn't sort of been beaten out of them at this point by the peer pressure, and they're still quite keen to please. And then you've got other students that perhaps you might think are maturing um a bit more quickly or becoming a bit more streetwise or whatever, whatever it is, and they are becoming more reluctant to put their hand up. And so you've got the students that still really want to engage and they want to please, and they have an increased level of perseverance, and then you've got those other students that are maybe they were keen in year seven, but in year eight they're becoming very self-conscious of themselves and their peer group, and they're more reluctant to contribute and put their hands up, and they certainly then start to lose the perseverance skills because what becomes important to them is how they look in front of their peers and not how they look in front of their teacher. And I think as a teacher, the moment that you spot that happening with a student, and it's difficult if you don't teach the students in year seven and you inherit that class in year eight as a brand new teacher, you don't really know what they were like in year seven, which is why it's really important to have uh rich data sets that you can share with colleagues to say, look, this pupil's really, really keen, but I've just started to notice that they're they're starting to lack some perseverance and engagement. And I think that kind of data, uh, which isn't, you know, numbers, it is so important in that transition process. So that as a teacher, you can capitalize on that. And I'm not saying it's easy, but I think our responsibility is to ensure that we continue to maintain high expectations, and that means expectations of engagement and perseverance. And I think a lot of teachers kind of give up the wrong word, but they kind of like think this is it's hard work. The students don't want to engage with me anymore. And so the more you think they don't want to do something, the more that you don't press it, and the more you don't press it, they the more they don't do it, and it becomes a kind of downward spiral. And and I try and kind of maintain that expectation of high engagement through year A. I'm not saying it's easy, but that's that's noticing the challenge, I think is important.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

Well, you're in danger of just of just kind of like giving up and going with the well, teenagers will be teenagers, you know. Um, yeah, they're entering the yeah, it's not cool to put my hand up anymore. And and if you choose to to to give in too easily, uh, then you only make that problem worse. And I understand what you're saying, it's all very well-trust law here and saying, Oh, our classrooms are fully engaged all the way through to year nine. Of course they weren't. We had the same, we had the same issues and problems. This this kind of leads on uh very nicely, really, to to the fourth problem he identified, which is why you know interest in maths was declining. And it's called simply said classroom behavior and environment decline. Now, I'm gonna confess here, uh, and I'm interested in your take. I I I totally get what you say on classroom behavior, and it leads on very nicely from what we were just saying as well, that you know, shift in students caring more now about the the the the social than the sort of pure engagement of learning that they had when they came from year six. But where is he going with environment decline? What's um I'm not actually sure what the angle is there. I know you were the one who read the original article, so I'm interested to hear how that's a problem identified uh by him.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Well, um what what he's really saying is that um less positive classroom behaviors, for example, listening, collaboration, and all that declines over time, and there's an increase in disruption that because there's an increase in disruption, it makes learning less enjoyable. Now, I'm sure we've seen this in our classrooms because people think we're perfect teachers, and we certainly aren't, and we've had our challenges over the years, and things get better with experience, but you know, there's still uh those times where you become a little bit complacent and student behaviors catch you out, and you're like, oh, I need to return to first principles of basic teacher training here and get this sorted because I've allowed my line to get a little bit blurry and a student has taken advantage of it, and now I need to pull that, pull that back. You know, that's happened to us both, I'm sure. Um, but what happens is as some students become a little bit more disengaged, become a little bit more disruptive, you know, uh they start to create that climate in the classroom where um it's not cool to be in school, sort of thing, is how I would describe it. And those students that were really, really keen and wanted to participate and wanted to please and wanted to make progress and enjoyed the learning process, they enjoyed the group work, they enjoyed the paired work, they enjoyed the things that allowed them to collaborate with others. Other people in their class are starting to prevent them from doing that and making them look like the One out, and so their enjoyment of learning diminishes, and so the once keen student then stops enjoying the process because the process can no longer happen in the way it once did. I think that's what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Yeah, absolutely. And you're and you're right, these things kind of compound each other, don't they? As you say, you know, the classroom behaviour is following on from this loss of confidence, which obviously can come from this mismatching, lesson difficulty, pace and repetition, and all of these things are leading to an environment where these things compound themselves. And that's why sometimes, you know, people who joke, don't they? Those who can do and those who can't teach, my it's it's I'd say give teaching a go, wouldn't you, Dave? Start to realise actually how tricky it is because you are dealing with 30, you know, in a typical key stage three class, 30, maybe upwards of 30 individual human beings who are all coming into their own and their independence. Uh, I mean, uh, I know we blase earlier said, oh, we can just say it's about the hormones and it's more difficult than that. But they are also now, you know, entering puberty and you know, they're seeing the world in a different light and all the rest of it. Uh, I mean, I don't mean to be really ablib, you know, um really glib here with this comment, but you know, it that that typical thing in primary school, uh, you ask a boy about a girl, a girl about a boy, and they go, Oh, girls, boys, yeah. And then of course they start getting interested in relationships and everything when we hit secondary school. So you the the whole dynamic shifts in secondary school with with teenagers. So it is increasingly difficult and complex. And for us then to try and manage and counter that when we only see them one lesson a week as well is very difficult. And that's why it's so important, as you say, you are consistent in what you do and you set those high expectations and you you try, and you you can try every tactic under the sun and and sometimes have little success with some students, but if you can create the overall classroom environment where you set that, you can certainly you know decrease that that decline. And it brings us sorry, you're gonna make one final point.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Yeah, just I just to say that you know, to the teachers out there, don't don't lose heart. You know, the moment that you lose heart, they lose heart. And I think our responsibility is to keep them buoyant, and it's really hard if you, you know, Craig says, you know, teaching 30, but let's face it, a lot of key stage three classes are now 32, 33, 34. It's kind of really, you know, pushing up the class sizes. And I it it's tricky. You've got a five-period day, you know, you're buzzing round, you've got all these extra expectations from leaders and everything else, and teaching's really, really hard. You've got your marking piling up in the corner there. It's so easy to kind of end up in that same doom loop. And as much as you can, just give yourself resets every week and just be like, right, okay, I'm not going to give up on that group activity. I'm not going to give up on that unplugged activity. I'm not going to give up on the fun. Because the moment I give up on that, I'm giving them a reason to give up. So persevere through it. You know, group work with year nine can be painful. I'm not saying that it's easy, but one thing that we're doing in our new Key Stage 3 units, Craig, is making sure that there are unplugged activities. We're making sure that there are group activities. And you're a real proponent of this. And, you know, we've had discussions as we've been creating our Key Stage 3 units where you've said, Oh, I've got this idea for an activity. And it means the students have to get out of their seats. They have to decide which corner of the room they're going to go in to support whatever argument, blah, blah, blah. And occasionally I've sort of dampened your spirits and I've said, hmm, have a think about how that's going to work with year nine on a Friday afternoon. And you're like, but Dave, we, you know, it's a good activity. We we should do it. And I'm like, yeah, but you know, we'll teach us out there start to say, Oh, that's too much hassle, I can't be bothered. And it's a it's tricky sometimes because you've got to find that balance. Um, I think if we become the resource providers that don't have their ears to the ground and their feet on the ground, and we know what the challenges are out there, then teachers aren't going to want to teach our units. But the flip side of that coin is we have to keep people buoyant and we have to keep injecting the things that are good practice so that you know we don't forget that that is how you do engage the students. It's by doing things that are not very easy in the classroom. And uh we we have to do that, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Yeah, absolutely. Well, just before we move on and look at, you know, what young people increasingly need versus the environment that secondary school is often imposing them. Let's let's just hit on the final, the fifth problem that David Thomas identified, and that's the unequal recovery by the summer term. Now, you're gonna have to explain that one a little bit. What exactly is he getting at there, and why is that a problem?

SPEAKER_00 27:24

He's essentially saying, a summary of what we've already said through the other points, that there are widening differences in attitudes. So more advantaged students tend to regain their enjoyment of maths. So they go through this little dip where they're like, we've learned this before, you know, um, we're treading water. And then they sort of come out the other side and regain that enjoyment of maths again. And it's because of expectations from home and the way that they are advantaged in the education process. Now we won't go into a whole episode about the differences between advantaged and disadvantaged students, right? Because that does feel like a whole episode in itself. But the profession recognizes that some students are more advantaged than others. And what he's essentially saying is that the more advantaged students have an opportunity and often take it to regain that enjoyment. They find different ways of it manifesting because they now have to fit into their peer group, they can't appear to be as keen as they once were and all those kinds of things. They find a new way to gain enjoyment through education and they take the opportunities that present themselves through extracurricular activities and other bits and pieces. And there are other students that maybe because of their situation are unable to take advantage of extracurricular opportunities and other things. And as a result of this, the gap widens uh both in students' attitudes and attainment. And again, it's just something to recognize and uh see if we can find a way to not allow a certain, it is almost a group of students to become that bottom third that you think are just completely disenfranchised, they don't care about computing. And and you know what, there is a reality in this. There is a reality in this. I'm I'm thinking in the back of my head as I'm talking about this about Clarkson's farm, and I'm thinking, you know, of Caleb Cooper out on the farm, and you know, he says, Well, I was no good at school, but you know, you put him out onto a farm, and uh as is evident, he's an expert in what he does. And I often think to myself, could I have engaged Caleb in computing to a point where he would enjoy computing? I'm gonna leave that as an open-ended question. Um, but you know, there are some students for which the subjects maybe they don't have an interest in it. And are they ever going to have an interest in it? I I'm gonna leave that as an anecdotal question.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Yeah, that's fine. I mean, I I won't go further than that because I've got so many opinions. I would go further than that and say with with how our education system is as a whole, one shot education fits everyone. This is the way education is gonna be, and you're all going to do it. I'd say the education system simply isn't right for every single person. I don't have a solution for the government. I'm not here saying they should be doing it like this. But yes, the traditional academic model of education simply isn't right for some people. That doesn't mean they won't be highly successful in life in other ways. So, yeah, indeed. Well, before we um finish the episode, I said we were gonna look at, you know, adolescents, teenagers. So once they stop becoming like those children in from year six and they start becoming teenagers, the sort of the key things that they actually they need and they want versus kind of the environment that secondary schools often become and provide. So I'm just gonna put some headlines out there and then we can sort of finish our discussion with this. So, you know, as children grow up, they become teenagers, they increasingly need autonomy, you know, the ability to make choices, they want to be independent, they they need competence, they want to feel successful, they want to know they're making improvements, and you've touched on it, they they increasingly want a sense of belonging, you know, peer acceptance, identity, that social aspect. You know, we know that this is well studied, this is what teenagers and young people increasingly need. But secondary schools, if we're not careful, and I've been subject to this, can become environments which are controlling, they're very narrowly focused, you know, the activities are very individual, they're very spoon-fed. Wow, can secondary schools become performance-focused? It's all about the assessments and the grades and how they got from point A to B and what's the improvement? And because of all this, they can become very impersonal. So, you know, the teacher feels far less connected than that dedicated teacher they had in primary school. So, what they need and the environment they get can can very easily become very disjointed. What's your um thoughts and takeaways on that, Dave?

SPEAKER_00 32:26

Yeah, well, I think for me, this is really my concluding comments. I think that there is a decline in motivation between year seven and to year nine. I don't think that's in denial. I've certainly seen that um in all the years that I have been teaching. I've done my best to combat it as best I can to varying degrees of success. Um, you know, I do occasionally fall into um bad habits of teaching, and I do fall into a lot of complacency with teaching. And uh, you know, you get to Friday afternoon and you're thinking, thank goodness that week's over. You know, crack a bottle of wine in the evening and sort of pretend that school doesn't exist um on Saturday. And then Sunday you start to think, oh no, I've got to get back to work again. There's marking to do. You reluctantly do a little bit of planning and a bit of marking or whatever. And Monday morning rolls round again, and you're like, I actually haven't had time to decompress properly, I haven't had time to plan properly. And um, and so because you're on the hamster wheel, next week becomes just the same as last week. And as a result of that, you do end up just expecting things to be the way they are. Um, and that that's very much the experience of my teaching career. And I had to occasionally reset myself and say, you can do better than this, you can teach better than this, you can engage students better than this, you can you can find time to do a better job. Um, and that's the reality of the situation for me. But I think too often, and I have definitely been guilty of this, too often I've put low motivation of students down to hormones. Oh, they're growing up, they're getting um hairy, right? And it's just something that the body is doing to them. Of course, it's knocking the enthusiasm out of them. That's what hormones do. And then I've thought to myself, it's teenagers being teenagers, you know, you're trying to swim against the tide. There's nothing you can do about this. Teenagers will always be teenagers. And there perhaps is an element of that. I mean, David Thomas is suggesting that that's not the is he going so far as to suggest that's not the case? No, but he's he's not really suggesting that that's part of the problem. I I think there is some biology involved. I think it would be naive to suggest there isn't any biology involved. I think um I don't know anything about it, but it feels to me through my experience that the brain is rewiring itself through the teenage years and it's firing off all sorts of chemicals, and and students are, you know, in a in a very confused state between being a child and being an adult. And I don't think that process is very easy on any young person. Some people seem to navigate it better than others, uh, but maybe they're just good at hiding some of the emotions and feelings that they have underneath. I suspect that's probably the case. But the bottom line for me, my concluding comment, is that secondary schools don't do students a good service because of the environment they create. Um, they don't evolve in line with adolescent needs. And you mentioned it really quickly. Uh sorry, not really quickly, quite comprehensively, actually. You know, adolescents need autonomy, competence, and belonging. Those are the three things they need to be successful. What do secondary schools provide? They provide control, performance focused, and impersonal relationships. That's that's actually what they what they uh give you. So I think it's incumbent.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

So no wonder they're less interested in the subject, is what we're basically saying.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

Yeah, and I don't think it's down, you know, I don't think it's down entirely to the students. I don't think it's down entirely to their computing teacher. Of course. I think it is down to the leaders of the school and the kind of environment they create that enables the young people and the teachers. This is the critical bit, and the teachers to flourish. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

You heard it from Dave, it's all SLT's fault. Right. Um, but thank you very much for staying. You should stay to the end. Another fascinating subject, and uh, we'll be back next week to talk to you some more. Take care for now. Bye bye, everyone.