Grief at Work

In this episode of Barely Legal, Morally Wrong, Alix and Mandy explore one of the most personal and difficult issues any workplace will face: grief.

Prompted by the sad loss of Jen Hardy, founder of Cancer Card, they discuss how employers respond when someone is dealing with bereavement and whether workplace policies truly reflect the reality of loss. From time off after a death to delayed funerals, miscarriage, IVF, pet loss and anticipatory grief, this is a thoughtful and honest conversation about the many forms grief can take and the limits of legal protection.

It is a powerful discussion about what happens when life does not fit neatly into policy and why compassion at work matters just as much as compliance

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Welcome to the podcast Barely Legal Morally Wrong. Alex, what are we going to chat about today?

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Well, I wanted to chat about grief today because it's been a really sad weekend for many of us in the sphere of people who listen to our podcast. So we lost Jen Hardy this weekend, who was the founder of Cancer Card. We lost her on Friday after a really long battle and a really brave battle with cancer. And for many of you listening who will know Jen was Jill Scott's sister. And it made me think about grief. I was very sad to hear about Jen. And it came on the back of us having a lovely dinner last week, goodness, on International Women's Day, where we celebrated the life of my best friend who had died of cancer almost eight years ago. And I wondered if things had changed around time off for grief, how we treat people when they're grieving, and what we're allowed to grieve about, I think is quite an interesting point. You know, I have a child and a dog. I'd be very sad if something happened to either of them. But I'm sure I'd be treated very differently at work if something happened to both of them. Now I'm I'm not by any stretch of the imagination saying they're equal. But how long do we give people to grieve and what do we say is acceptable? I guess when does it fall into mental health territory? And are we allowed to grieve before somebody passes? Do we give time off? When grief happens to every single one of us will be touched by grief, and it's a it's a big and difficult subject because I don't think until it happens you ever know how you're going to respond. Um because it can be a surprise or it can be a long time coming and almost a relief. So yeah, that that that's my that's been my thoughts all weekend and I and I and I should say at this point that my heart goes out to Jen's friends and and family. Yeah, very sad weekend for them.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Yeah, it's a it's a very challenging area and not an area where the law has really stepped in until more recently. And you know, it's strange. I was thinking this weekend as well about how we all get go about our daily lives and you don't know what's going on in people's lives, whether it be that they've got a friend or a family member who's going through palliative care, um, their end of days, or indeed they might be getting tested themselves, but they're still turning up to work, not wishing to disclose too much at that stage because they don't know what's going on, and we're all carrying all this baggage around, and you know, where where do you put it and how do HR teams support you through this? There's no real hard and fast rules on it. I mean at the moment, um the the existing law is parental bereavement leave, which has existed since 2020. Employees have a right to two weeks' leave if a child dies under 18 or is still born after 24 weeks, so that's very limited. But a lot of employers do give contractual rights or discretionary policies where they set out what you could do if you need compassionate leave. But again, it's usually quite specific in terms of it being a loved one, your partner or a parent. Right. And you know, in this day and age often we can be estranged from our parents, but have some other member of our family who we're closer to or or indeed a very close friend, just like you with your your friend Erica, that that they've been there for you all your life and supportive and you know, it and I think also the the way that families are made up now, they won't necessarily fit into the box, well certainly not the statutory box of what gives you a right, but even in terms of employers' policies. So I mean you would like to think that most employers would be compassionate enough to say take the time off that you need, but I think generally there's an expectation that that is not going to exceed a week. Right? A week? Yeah, uh-huh. I would say so. In terms of what is normal to be provided for. That is why you mentioned the mental health aspect. And it's a sad thing that you know there are there is a situation where I suppose depending on your employer and if you have a good relationship with your manager or whatever who's who's who's known what the issues have been, may give you more, but it then comes down to putting yourself into the GP and getting a sick line, really. If the impact on you is is such that you need more time off. And I suppose one of the other things that I've always thought is quite challenging is even the admin side of a death. I mean I Yeah, my dad died suddenly, and I took that week off and got it all done dusted within a week to go to his funeral because I had a tribunal start the following week, which sounds horrendous. But basically that week I'm an only child, so basically that week was spent registering the death certificate because he died outside and it w there was no anticipated illness, there had to be a post-mortem and all things like that. And I mean that for me was not used to mourn or grieve, it was used to do the admin in preparation for the funeral.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

And I know so my very close friend's father died recently, and I know when my dad died, which was twenty plus years ago, everything had to be informed individually. Because I remember BT at the time kept getting it wrong and then kept writing to my mother, you know, dear Mr. Mikerson, we see you have died, which was incredibly distressing at the time. Now there is a there's a stop, kind of a one-stop shop thing that you can fill in that goes to a number of places, but not everybody's signed up to it. And I believe a lot of the new banks are not signed up to the code of conduct because the advice I was given at the time was get loads of death, original death certificates because you'll have to send them off to everybody. I think that's moved on to take time. But you're so right, the practicalities, particularly when it happens unexpectedly, just takes up a huge amount of time. And when is there time for organising the rest? And also my understanding of funerals and things of late, and I don't know if this is a kind of COVID hangover, is that it's very rare now that if somebody passes away, you get the funeral in that week. It seems to be like two to three weeks after, in a lot of cases. So are you expected to go back to work and then take a day's holiday?

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Yeah, and that's a very good point. I mean, in some respects, I was fortunate my dad died in 2007, so way before COVID, and for whatever reason we were able to get all done quickly. Um I was also trying to avoid his funeral landing on my daughter's birthday, which was you know, that's not a nice memory for her to have.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

No, not at all.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

But yeah, I have a colleague whose father sadly passed recently, and I think it was four weeks before the funeral took place, and the same for for another friend, and that seems to be the norm. So you're right, what do you do? You're in a state of limbo during that. Are you really able to even start your grieving? Because often people need to go through that process of burying their loved one or to to actually start the grieving process. So yeah, it's uh it is very challenging. I don't know what the answer is.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

I know that things have definitely changed about postmortems and things because you know, one of the things that we laughed about when my granny died, famous granny who was 106 when she died, was that they said in that when we were at the Undertaker's, and we'll have to wait and see if we require a postmortem. And we were like, She's 106, you know, there was no file prey, etc. etc. And uh they said, no, it's standard now that they do a sample poll. I don't I don't know the right phrase is that so many of them are tested, and then I guess if you get selected, that slows things down even further. And unfortunately, she wasn't selected and off we went. And uh um and granny's funeral had she'd paid for her own funeral when she was in her next sixties or seventies. So the hilarious thing was the guy couldn't believe how many extras she had in her funeral that were on offer and on sale back then. And we were so pleased because Granny, who loved a bargain, would have been so delighted at all the things that she got really, really cheaply, masses of flowers, all of these things. Anyway, the long and chart of it was even with somebody of that age, who clearly was just dying of a very old age and slipping away, it wasn't a case of in and out in a wake. And also, you know, it wasn't a surprise when granny died, but still I didn't want to go into work in between times, and I think like you, I think I did. In fact, I'm positive I did, and I'm sure my employer was pretty keen that I was in work in in between and think I was very sad in the run-up to her dying, and certainly I was told a few times to kind of put a face on it and pick up my pace, um, you know, in a way that I probably wouldn't have expected having been there for, you know, ten years.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Quite unsympathetic by the same thing. I mean, that is something I was going to raise with you. It's not just the, you know, you could have just turned around and said, right, okay, I'll get myself signed off because I'm not up for this. But you try to go in and do some work, and you know, it's a bit like no good deed goes unpunished because you were perhaps exposing yourself to more hurt during a time where you would have felt vulnerable and heart sore, you know, about the loss of your granny. But also they're looking over your shoulder, potentially worried about your performance. So, in that scenario, it's the impact of those that struggle on as well when they maybe need some support, counselling, grievance counselling. And I again that's not something that's mandated that employers have to provide, but a lot of good employers may well have some services that they can direct their employees to in relation to some grievance counselling. I mean, it amazes me how it's so perfunctory that it's done and dusted so quickly, and you are then meant to just get on with it. And then I suppose there's the impact that it can have when actually a colleague dies as well.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Yeah. And who has to pick up all the slack around you? Well, first I remember I remember now being told I had to come in for my appraisal, which I did, which I can't say was a happy experience, because I my head wasn't in the right space. And at the end when it was finished, I remember saying, I'll just go now and see if my granny's still with us, and the two people who were taking my appraiser looked horrified, and the message that was passed to me later was I was being aggressive and difficult. Which I probably was being quite aggressive and difficult, but I was angry that I had been made to come in for it. But secondly, I guess I wasn't doing my work as well as I could have been doing because I shouldn't have been at work in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Do you not think that when it's an elderly relative, I think sometimes you're almost apologising for the fact you need to be off almost like, oh well that person not deserved to die, but you know, their time has come. And actually, I remember when my I was fortunate enough, like you, to have my grandmother into my forties. Mm-hmm. Yeah, into my into my forties, and she she died at 90. And so I was very, very lucky to have a grandparent, but actually she was such a big part of my life. Because people live longer.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

And there is a case that people are living longer now. So that's gonna happen to more and more of us. Be left with fewer children. So you and I are classic examples. Although I have a sister, I had a grandmother and a mother, you know, still alive. There's a lot of generations and a daughter. But there's not lots of people to share the load with in terms of the admin of a death in a way that it might have been years past.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Yeah. I mean, you're right to point that out. I mean, I remember just for hours being on the phone to try and get my dad's skybox or something sent back, and where should I send it? And they wouldn't speak to me because I wasn't the account holder, and it is crazy that there's such a sort of finite period in which you're expected to do all your grieving. You know, three to five days, thanks very much, and normal service should be resumed. That is effectively it, unless you're going to go and go down a different route, which is to get signed off. You have no alternative. I mean the law is changing with the Employment Rights Act coming in, and it's expected to be implemented not this year but next year, and it will introduce a new day one right to at least one week of unpaid statutory bereavement leave for employees covering the loss of a loved one, including specifically pregnancy loss before 24 weeks. And this applies to all employees, protecting them from dismissal or detriment if they take that time. Right. But I suppose what I was saying is there isn't really anything beyond that, you know, if if you are off following a bereavement and it's impacted you really badly, unless you're saying your absence is due to a disability, for instance, it's not a protected characteristic. No. So you are exposed. But as I mentioned there, this has happened to me sadly in a previous firm. Two colleagues relatively young died of cancer.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Goodness.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

That I worked closely with. And it's you know, the whole team screving. I mean, the impact on the team. Yeah, that's huge. And I don't think I don't know what employers do for that. I mean, there isn't really anything there's certainly not something that is prescriptive. That would just be again be left to the employer's discretion as to how you deal with it. But it could have quite a massive effect. I mean, often these people that you're working with are your your closest allies. You spend more time with your work colleagues than you do with it with anyone. But you're expected to just get on with it and see that empty desk, you know, and not be impacted by it.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

So I guess i in the days of falling birth rate and things that people find very important and and animals, not to be flippant about it. I'd be devastated if something happened to Flora the dog. I really would. And I wouldn't function well. What happens if a is there anything mandated now? I mean, I've seen it in good practice in employee handbags.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

No, there's there's nothing mandated under law. And you know, for a lot of people, their pet is their world. Yeah. I see it with the team and so much for all this chat on the manosphere because I think that the males in our team, you should see them with their dogs, they're their children. And they absolutely adore them. And they would think nothing of crying in front of us if they lost a pet. And I know Michael, we can't refer to Max or show him a picture of our old chocolate labrador without him crying. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

I mean, as I said to you earlier, you know, Flora had a check-up at the vet this morning, and I mean, partly it shows where my head's at, but when the vet said she needed an operation and some teeth out, I did ask how many days would she need off work? And then got myself into a right thankle with the vet who asked if she was a working dog, and I mean it was a small white bull of fluff and couldn't look any less like a working dog, which then resulted in me having a weird conversation with him about if I did get a second dog, which is never going to happen, could I get a diabetes sniffer dog for Claudia? And I I mean, to be honest, I think both the vet and I were just glad when I left. As my granny used to say, why would I get another dog now I know how awful it was to lose one? Why would I put myself through that?

SPEAKER_00 16:06

So, you know, it is a really big thing. Yeah, no, there's nothing in legislation that that provides for that. In a nation where we are all pet lovers, it is strange. I'd like to think I mean, I don't know how employers would feel. I think they'd probably expect you to take the day off to go to the vet and that would be it.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Moving on, I I never really understood when I was pregnant why you had to wait 12 weeks before you could tell anybody. And then the the sort of digging about was it was they sort of said once you were past your first trimester, you were less likely to lose the baby. And it was about keeping it private. And I think there's a movement now against that so that if something does happen to you and you do have a miscarriage, then at least you can get support earlier on. And I presume that's in the employment act now coming in. Because I c I can't imagine anything more devastating than the excitement of knowing, in most cases, that you're having a baby, and then to lose it and to just carry on typing away at your desk. Firstly, with all the physical changes that you go through, and then secondly, the emotional issues that go along with that. I mean, there's all these changes for you know, IVF time and and everything else. Presumably there's changes at the other end for when it doesn't work out.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Well, that is what it's saying. It introduces a new day one right, uh, which includes specifically pregnancy loss before the 24 weeks, which I think before it was I was in that situation exactly as you say, Alex. Fortunately, I've got two kids, so that that's good, but I hadn't told anyone I was pregnant and then had a miscarriage at the sort of 12 week period, and I was in court working and it was quite I was in court presenting a case and I thought, oh, what's that? And it was really hard. I didn't take any time off because it would it was odd to say to people after the fact, oh by the way, I was pregnant but I've lost it. Can I take some time off? So just sort of suppress it and nothing to see here and get on with it. And I think that was very much something that people do, and it it'll be happening all the time. And I mean I know you mentioned IVF there, and I've got a few colleagues who've had to go through that arduous journey. It's extremely I mean, what their bodies have to sustain and it's not easy. And also just this sort of state of limbo and feeling like you're walking around not knowing what's going to happen. And I did speak to a former colleague who later told me that she'd been going through IVF but hadn't shared that with some colleagues because she didn't think that they would be particularly supportive. And I was horrified to hear that, knowing how difficult the whole process is.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

I've certainly worked places where I could tell you straight away they wouldn't have been supportive of that because the knock-on effect of that would have been, are we about to lose this person to maternity? Yeah. And again, it's a bit like death. It's likely that you're going to lose this person to maternity, but nobody can tell you when, because you don't know if it's going to be successful or not. So it perhaps almost puts a marker on your back to move you to one side to be ignored, particularly as a woman, would be the other side of it. Although my mum had four miscarriages before she had me, and I'm obviously nearly 53, so it was a long time ago. But she started to miscarry once on a Friday night, and my dad phoned the surgery, and the doctor told my dad to tell my mum to take a paracetamol and come back on a Monday. I mean it's shocking. The stuff you know you think that women lived through with female reproductive health is absolutely unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

And there isn't any rights, as I understand it, for like taking time off for IVF, but you do have similar protections to a woman who is pregnant once there's been the embryo transfer. So basically it says that they are protected by law for two weeks after finding out. And as you say, I think most folk probably just get on with it and Yeah, I think they do. Again, coming back to your theme of grief, and then if they experience loss, they're grieving, but there's no mandated time off for for that.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Although to be fair to an employer, if somebody chooses just to get on with stuff and not say things, then it's very hard for people to be able to help.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Yeah, that's a that's a choice. And I th I think that that just sort of I suppose is dictated by the culture of the organization. I mean, I know I've got a colleague who's been very open about what she's going through, but also that makes it very hard as well.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Yeah. I mean we've probably all worked in businesses where we've known someone going through IVF and somebody comes marching in and says they're pregnant. I mean, I I know I was 39 when I had Claudia. It was a surprise for me and clearly a surprise for the HR community. And the number of people who asked me, had I been trying, was it IVF, was it any of these things, that it revealed a whole kind of subculture going on of people who are in limbo trying to start a family, desperate to hear if there was some sort of, I don't know, miracle cure going on or something I had done to make it happen. And the answer I hadn't done anything at all, and it was just a chance, you know, that it had happened wasn't really the answer they were they were particularly looking for. But because I wasn't trying for a child and it just sort of happened, it wasn't something that I had dug around in before. But you could see people's grief was very raw that were asking me questions about it. And it's like one of these things, like when you lose a loved one or any of these things. I'm sure you're the same that, you know, after my dad died, I remember thinking afterwards, you know, the next time I hear of that happening to someone else, I will be a lot kinder. Because I know how awful that was. But you don't you don't know how awful these things are until they actually happen to you. It's a very difficult thing to try and explain a feeling of loss or the fact that you're okay for ages and then something weird pops out the woodwork or, you know, a piece of music, a piece of food, a piece of whatever that that gets you down the line and probably will always do.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Yeah. I um I remember feeling the same way, Alex, about would be much more sympathetic. And it was like you'd entered a world or a club that you didn't necessarily want to be part of, but I could now tell quite a difference between my friends who'd lost a parent and friends who still had their parents. There was it is harder to articulate what it is, but there was a massive difference between people who just hadn't experienced that. It it's like a loss of your childhood as well. It almost just gets pulled away from you. And as I say, you you're left feeling quite exposed and vulnerable and you have to get your head round it.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

I guess this has been a quite a sad chat we've had today, but kind of necessary. So I think what are we trying to say? The law doesn't help, but you can be kind and not in memory of Jen that we lost on Friday. I think she was incredibly kind to everybody that came along in a really, really practical way. And we want to send all our love to all of her friends and and family. Yeah, it's a nice way to end. Yeah. And then we can both start crying.