Holidays

In this episode of Barely Legal, Morally Wrong, Alix and Mandy discuss Holidays and ask whether the traditional way we think about working time is still fit for purpose.

From annual leave and burnout to flexible working, childcare, public holidays and the reality of being constantly available, this is a thoughtful conversation about how modern working life has outgrown the systems designed to regulate it. They explore whether current rules around time off really reflect the world we now live in and what a more realistic, healthier approach to work might look like.

It is an honest discussion about boundaries, productivity, wellbeing and why proper time away from work still matters.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Welcome to our ninth podcast, Barely Legal, Morally Wrong. Is it time to call time on working time? Quite a mouthful. So, Alex, I thought what would be good to chat about, perhaps precipitated by the fact you're about to go on holiday, is the traditional 95, 40 hour working week fit for purpose? What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 0:37

It's such an interesting question. Because obviously I'm self-employed and I'm going on holiday on Friday, which I am really looking forward to. And I feel like I am crawling towards it. Having started a new business September, October time, and I haven't had any time at all. And my daughter is complaining. And rightly so, that I am attached to my phone, which anybody around me would recognise, and that I work all the time. Now I'm happy to do so and very much enjoying doing so. But I did go through my head the other night that if I was employed by somebody else, I would be a risk case. I'd be a health and safety issue. And where would it stand? But also I do a lot of my work through LinkedIn. LinkedIn doesn't have an office web, it doesn't say I'm out of office for a week. So there's loads of questions in there for me about how do you tell the world that you're checked out for a week? I know I could just take my phone away and put it in a box and leave it. But how do people know how how do employers know that you need a break?

SPEAKER_01 1:38

I couldn't agree more. And I think that at the time the working time regulations came out, which was back in 98, again a piece of legislation driven by Europe. They were obviously embracing the sort of Mediterranean lifestyle, people having proper time off, and it wanted to protect the health and safety of its workers. The new Employee Rights Act, does that change some of this? Not really. I mean, the working time regulations are pretty much still there intact as they were back in 98. I mean, there's been some tinkering round the edges. What the Employment Rights Act is looking to do is to review the obligation to keep records of annual leave, holiday pay, and general working hours to demonstrate compliance. I think that, and certainly if I've been involved in any cases, and I've often said to clients, if there's an issue around stress at work or ill health or anything like that, and there might be a suggestion that the employer contributed to that, have we got any records to show how that individual worked? And unless you're in manufacturing and it's the clock in, clock out, it's quite difficult, other than holidays. But then as you've pointed out, even keeping a record of people on annual leave and holidays, did they really get that holiday? How is that actually policed and enforced because of this always-on culture? And another thing that I've noticed is pre-COVID, we all had landlines as well, and clients would phone us on our landline. Now I've given clients perhaps more for me, not only my work phone, but often my personal. And I don't put a I'm out of the office on my work phone as a message. So if clients use the medium of texting you on your phone or just phoning you, there isn't an alert that says, actually, this person's not working today. So it's then up to you to have that guilt of saying, I'll just not answer the call. And and I think we're not really built for that. But I mean, what the working time's aim was, as I said before, was to protect health and safety. So that was about not working too long on average, so cap at 48 hours per week over a certain period. But again, the UK managed to get an opt-out on that and rest breaks, and obviously special provisions for younger workers, special provisions for night workers, all of these things designed to protect health and safety. But I I think we've kind of moved away from that. And I do sometimes wonder whether that's actually been achieved, because for me it's more, it's actually now become case law where all that's happening is they're saying, oh, well, if you've been off sick long term for a couple of years, you continue to accrue your holidays. If you're on Mat Leave, and of course, time off you can have for maternity or parental rights is quite generous now. You continue to accrue holidays. And then all that means is that you can take them when you come back. So you've got a whole load of holidays to take, or you stockpile holidays. And I'm not trying to deprive these people of paid for the time off that they get. But for me, that's like different rights layering on top of each other. And I'm not sure that they're compatible because I'm not saying again that being off sick is you're having a rest, but you're certainly not at work. And so where's the health and safety issue there if you've had time off? And it's the same with Mat Leave. Again, it's a lot to take on, but where is the health and safety? I would rather just see a recognition that, oh, maybe we'll pay people a bit more than sort of saying, well, here's all these holidays, to then factor into the fact you've just had a year off, you're coming back, and what do we do? But sometimes what can happen is people can use those holidays for phased returns and things. So I suppose there's some advantage, but it's certainly not about health and safety when you look at it that way.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

When I think of the Working Time Directive and when it was set up like 1998, I think the health and safety issues were really different. So to me, Working Time Directive always feels a bit manufacturing and production line health and safety. So you don't work on the line for any more than X amount of hours because then you become a risk and it's not good. Whereas now, a lot of the health and safety issues that people are facing are around mental health issues and burnout and things, and that's because of the 24-7 culture. And often I think it's not good. And I describe myself as this I work all the time and I work none of the time in that I really love my job and what I do, and I can go and pick my daughter up and I can go this afternoon and get my hair done because I'm still online and I'm still messaging where I am. But is there a point where you're never actually switched off? And how do you then count that up in terms of how many hours you've actually worked when you're multitasking? And the working time direct doesn't count for that in lots of places now. I'm probably at the extreme end of when I'm working and when I'm not. In an office, if you're working from home, your day is elongated when you're doing some of the things that you're doing, and when do you switch off? And how is it counted? And how would an employer document that in terms of me coming back later on and saying, actually, I'm burnt out?

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Yeah, I mean I think that's the difficulty. And you know, this idea of always being on and available doesn't mean that you are optimizing your productivity. So you could say, bring back the nine to five, four eight hours where the boundaries were clearly set and your head was down and you left, and perhaps productivity would increase. But as I say, I think the outside world has changed so much, it doesn't really work. And there is advantages to having that level of flexibility because one size doesn't fit all. And I think we need to maximize productivity. I've always said for any business to be successful, it's about trying to play to everyone's strengths. So you might have colleagues who, I'm not very good in the morning, so can I start later? And then I'm not very good in the evening, can I start at five and finish earlier? Now, if you can find a way for that to operate, but they still have their downtime, so there's a clear cutoff, or others as well, with the cost of living crisis and childcare, you'll be aware of this and even waiting lists for child wraparound care and things like that. We need to be more flexible in how we actually keep and retain talent in the workplace, and flexible working is probably the way to go.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

I mean, I know we use the rest of the services to back us up, shopping gets delivered and everything. Means everything is then focused around your work and delivering for people. And I don't know if that's necessarily right that it works that way.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

I agree that there needs to be an absolute overhaul of the system that we've got. And that is to avoid burnout. I think if we did an entire consultation and analysis of data, and again, it could have a sector focus or an industry focus, because not everything would work. I do appreciate there is a requirement still for presenteism that we can never get away from. But in relation to so many organizations, particularly where they might have a global presence, there's really creative and clever ways to work, which actually probably balances out increasing productivity while protecting the health and well-being of staff, so that there's a degree of boundaries being reset, but boundaries being reset in a flexible environment and not just limited to a Monday to Friday, nine to five.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Well, I met a great person this week who had a baby, an American, and stayed working for her American business remotely. And as a single parent, it sounds like a a great option. She worked on the west coast of the States before she came here, therefore she would put her child down at six, seven o'clock at night and then log on and do a full day's work, 7 pm to 2 a.m., and do her day on the west coast of America. I can't imagine she was getting a huge amount of sleep, and I hope her baby was a sleeper, but she made that work for her in that she had family time and had work time because the two are not compatible.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Yeah. I mean, we saw that flexibility, and it was one thing that was welcomed from COVID when we had the opportunity to work from home, didn't suit everyone. But I did hear that there was a lot of people who were stressed with the situation or they were starting to go through menopause or had some other health conditions, but they said that they were still able to be very productive because there was more flexibility afforded through that working arrangement. It's interesting that, you know, thrust into a crisis situation, you can actually see some positives. And we saw the positives coming out of hybrid working. And I do feel there's now a pendulum shift to getting people back into work. I notice it even going through to our office in Glasgow or, you know, the hordes of people walking in the street all going into work. I think it's because people like boundaries. People like to switch off from work. Yeah. So there's definitely something in that. It's trying to achieve boundaries for each individual that works for them rather than this rigid framework that maybe doesn't work for them, causes them more expense, gives them difficulties with their own childcare situation or their health conditions or whatever. There was a petition to Parliament about this four-day week, which actually, nice as it sounds, thought it was bonkers that we would work four days a week but get paid full week. But there was still this intention of the boundaries. So I was like, well, where does the flexibility come in there and where does the increased productivity come in there? That's just reduced our working.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Well, I don't know, because is it? You know, I've interviewed quite a lot of the organisations that have gone from being open five days to being open four, and and they say that, you know, a slightly longer day and people being really focused means I guess there's less rubbish chat goes on in the office, and people feel more refreshed because it's that third day of downtime that everybody always says that they need, you know, a family day, a catch-up admin life day, and then day three of your weekend is a day that you take your bike out or or do whatever. And none of them had noticed productivity go down. I always think it's interesting that it seems to work well in manufacturing organizations where they're putting out a product because provided they get their time skills and things right, they're still meeting their customer needs. How you would be a four-day-a-week recruiter or lawyer that was permanently switched off. I think that's much harder. I do see the positives in it and how it's worked for some people.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

I totally agree that I can see that productivity would go up in terms of those four days because people be excited and they can invest all their energy and they've got the carrot at the end. And I know that prior to having my own children, I would do my work and then I could still chat to someone at the photocopier and I could maybe take a little bit longer than I realised. Honestly, I became so antisocial once I had a chub, but my productivity didn't change. I just had my head down, disciplined, didn't stop for a lunch break, was quite rude to my colleagues to say, sorry, I can't chat, I've got something to do.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

I mean, you agree you see that in all offices. Can I ask you an interesting question about holidays? So last recruitment company I worked for, I can't remember whether I got 20 or 25 days holiday, you know, a fairly standard low amount that you get in a small private sector company. I then went to the public sector where I got 45 days holiday and I didn't know what to do with them all. But that's another story. So there I am almost doubling my holiday count. Therefore, does it correlate that there is less stress or less absence in an organization where you're theoretically getting double the amount of time off? Okay. Because I don't think it does. Having been there and worked amongst it, certainly in the public sector organization I was in, I could see much higher levels of absence and people not working particularly hard in a lot of cases, although there was some very hard workers. And also, if I go back to the recruitment world, there were people who I worked beside in the recruitment company who didn't even take all of their 25 days.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Yeah. I mean, I think there's a sweet spot, isn't it? Is about what motivates us in feeling pressure but not stress. And generally speaking, most organisations offer something on top of that or add public holidays. So it's not quite as much as 45 days, but it certainly would be in the 30s. I read about the 43-day rule. I don't know if you've heard about that. They say that after you've taken a holiday, the the boost to productivity and your perspective on life will last for 43 days after you return from that holiday. And so therefore, maybe it is about self-discipline as well. Really, what you should be encouraging your employees to do is to take a break every six weeks because that gives them a recharge and a reset and actually it benefits you. But I do think there's something in that that it's not just the actual quantity of time, but it's when you take it, how often you take it, and ensuring that when they do take it, they actually have time off.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. It's interesting, isn't it? Because you, you know, as you said, you need your holidays for different things at different stages in your life. I always said the big benefit of being split parents were that at least we didn't want to try and take a holiday together. Ergo, we had more days to split across the summer holidays to look after the child. But when I didn't have, I just wanted holidays to travel and and do things. You know, more holidays would be great for that, but you wouldn't be clever at fitting stuff in. So to go back to my question, is there a perfect amount of holidays? There's a perfect time, so every six weeks. But if I was setting up a new business and you're gonna have 50 employees, should I give them 25? Should I give them 35? Or should I be cool and hip and say, just work when you want to as long as your work is done?

SPEAKER_01 15:41

Is it BlackRock? Do that kind of thing where there's unlimited. I'm probably a bit old school and old-fashioned, it would make me feel nervous. I still like record my holidays, I put it in, although I'm one of head of the division. Like I let my PA know and this is my holidays. I count them all out, a plan at the beginning of the year, have I got enough holidays to do that? So I like that comfort. And I've always got the team in a scene of when are you having a holiday? And they're carrying over to the next year. And I'm like, how did that happen? Oh, I was just too busy. So there is an element of we have to take responsibility, autonomy, and maybe that's where organizations just say there's not a sort of limited number of holidays. You've got to to self-discipline and it's autonomous, is the way to go. It's a really good point that you're making.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

I just think when you're younger, I wouldn't have known how many holidays to take. I'd have been feaster famine.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

When I was advising the big banks be the the uh collapse in Scotland, there was very strict policies. And I remember looking at the holidays and how often you should take, and you should take at least once a year, at least two weeks holiday. So not just a few days here or a week. There had to be two-week break. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

So that's about fraud. Yes. I know this from my sister who works for a bank, in that one of the reasons you have to have a two-week holiday is that if you're off for two weeks, something would come to light. Yes. So I presume that must have come out of something not coming to light over lots of people taking a week's holiday, but starting to see it after two weeks. So I believe that's mandatory.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Yes, that's right. And I thought that was an ironer because they did have a few people where they were saying, Well, what do we do? Because they were refusing to take the two weeks. And in some cases, I think they were pretty sure it was nothing to do with fraud. It was an older lady who lived on her own, and I think she just felt the company of coming in to work. You know, and that that was sad. That was about companionship, not about fiddling the books. But there's also there can be that reverse situation of how do I compel my staff to not turn up?

SPEAKER_00 17:51

And what about culturally? You know, Christmas always comes up as an issue in bigger organisations where I would hesitate to suggest to everybody who's taking Christmas off is because they're a massive Christian. You know, if you don't celebrate at all and you would much rather have two weeks off to celebrate Eid or whatever, you know, there's always arguments about full shutdown and things. Where are we with that?

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Well, I suppose an employer, particularly like in factories, you can serve notice on the employees. There's there's mechanisms that you can tap into with working time as to allow for that. There's also things like counter notices, but if if you're an organization where you want to do a shutdown, well, obviously you would put that into the contract of employment that you're closed and you will take your holidays during this period. But talking about the sort of mandated holidays or public holidays, and there's been a lot of us moving away from fixed public holidays. A lot of employers throw that into the mix and say you've got X days and you've got an eight-day allocation, but we don't close for the public holidays. Now, I personally think if there was a focus on productivity, we should all start to be aligned on public holidays because I think it's great when there's complete shutdown, proper rest day if everyone's off. I mean, I love Easter for that reason, because if there's a public holiday, Friday, Monday is great. And generally, you know, I know all my colleagues are off and the email traffic has quietened down. So why would we be asking people to come in on these days when we're quiet? You would be best to just like even there's a bank holiday coming up this Monday, we don't shut down, just a message to HR. I think we should because it will be quieter.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I'm going on holiday next week because it's half term, but I certainly felt warmer going on holiday and taking the week off and being out of contact knowing that one of the days of the week everybody else was going to be off. Yeah, exactly. And it's the same at Christmas, we all work right up until Christmas Eve, which again is crazy. Yeah, yeah. You're right. The best holidays are when everyone is off and you feel that. And also there's no worry about what you're missing and what's going on in your absence and everything that goes along with that. It's a proper restful day for people. But I guess that doesn't work in the NHS, that doesn't work in the fire service, it doesn't work for any of these places, as you well know.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

Yeah, we've got to bear in mind it was the same with um hybrid working. There's certain people that they didn't have that flexibility. They still had to come in to the workplace. So we have to recognise that and factor it in. But for those jobs that could have some flexibility, I do think it's time for a reset. And I don't know being a business owner yourself, how you feel about that.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Yeah. I don't think the holiday system is particularly working for people. Like your idea, and I can see a day off every six weeks is probably very good for you. I think that's a great thing. I'm gonna go and have a bit of a dig into that. No, for lots of people they live holiday to holiday, only feel happy if they've got something in the diary booked to work towards, and that's fine. But I feel it's quite outdated. I think as a single person, as a you know, as a parent, all of the stages I've gone through with holidays, it doesn't feel like it ever works for everybody. And I get that it's never going to be perfect, but it feels quite outdated. And the 24-7 culture, there's just got to be an answer because people can't be on all the time. So the legislation I think needs to catch up, and I think that's what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

I would agree with that. We have sort of got into a world with FOMO and Instagrammable stuff that I sometimes wonder, even with my own team, that they're not wanting to book a holiday until they know they're going somewhere exotic. And I remember when my own parents were younger, they had a holiday and stayed at home and did some chores around the house. And I think people do that less, and so perhaps we need to just think you're not wasting your holiday by taking a break. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

It's important to take a break. Here endeth our lesson. And if you're looking for me next week, I'll be on a beach in Grace. Happy holidays. Thank you. Bye.

unknown 22:00

And bad and bad and took his side burns babble, asked you asked, baby, asked that they bought that.