Bringing Your Whole Self to Work, with special guest Neil Hutchison

For Episode 10 of Barely Legal, Morally Wrong, Alix Meekison and Mandy Laurie are joined by their first special guest, Neil Hutchison from Room for Growth.

This episode explores one of the most common phrases in modern workplace culture: bring your whole self to work.

It sounds positive. It sounds progressive. It sounds like the kind of thing every good employer should want to encourage. But what does it actually mean when it meets the reality of employment law, HR responsibility, workplace boundaries, mental health, vulnerability, generational differences and organisational risk?

Neil brings a therapeutic perspective to the conversation, drawing on his work with individuals and business leaders to explore the human side of workplace issues. Alongside Alix and Mandy, he looks at the tension between authenticity and professionalism, why psychological safety is often misunderstood, and why boundaries matter just as much as openness.

The episode asks whether “bring your whole self to work” is always helpful, or whether the better aim is to create workplaces where people can bring the best version of themselves, with the right support, the right expectations and the right boundaries.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Hi, here we are back, episode ten of Barely Legal Morally Wrong. And what's different this episode is we have a guest. And we have a guest for a very specific reason. To celebrate getting to 10, and also because what we're about to talk about today is should you bring your whole self to work? So we are welcoming Neil Hutchison. Neil, do you introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Hi, Alex. Hi Mandy. Thanks for having me on. Delighted to be here. So I'm Neil Hutcheson. I'm from a company called Room for Growth. And at Room for Growth, we're counselors, so we're therapists. And we do one-to-one in group therapy, but we're also therapeutic consultants. What's a therapeutic consultant? Well, I think it's just us for now. My business partner and I, we we worked in corporate spaces for the first chunk of our careers, and that time saw every type of cultural or behavioral issue under the sun. And as we retrained and started practicing as therapists, we realized that a lot of the principles we were using as the foundation of our practice had applications in the world of business. So we're on a mission, Alex, to help business leaders think differently about the human side of common business issues. And we are some strong views on the bring your whole self to work idea in both directions. So I'm really looking forward to having a chat about it today.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Brilliant. Thank you. We're so grateful to have you. Now, let me explain a little bit of background to bring your whole self to work. For those of you who don't know, Mandy and I run a dinner series called The Difficult Dinner Conversation. And we have been discussing the trans issue at the Difficult Dinner Conversation because it's a very obvious thing at the moment to discuss, but needs much more than 30 minutes of a podcast to discuss. And one of the big things that came out of that that I'm sure you'll all recognise is the law says one thing, you may or may not agree with it, but how do you cope with this in the workplace? Mandy, you explain it better than than I do.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

The point of the difficult dinners conversation is we've created an environment now where it's hard to have an open space to really discuss how you feel about things. Everything's become quite difficult and tense in relation to clashing rights. There's which right trumps another. And for HR workforce, it's quite difficult in terms of them looking to devise policy and basically balance the rights of all the competing interests in the organization and how they navigate that. And the point of the dinners was to actually be open and be free to discuss and share our opinions on various things in a way that we could disagree but not be disagreeable. We we always refer to that phrase, the the Ruth Ginsburg phrase of, you know, disagree but don't be disagreeable, to navigate away and find an outcome that hopefully took into account everybody's rights in a safe space. And that that's what we were seeking to achieve. And hopefully we did that.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

But I think we did. And the fact that we set up three dinners, and at the end of the third dinner we said, What have we learned? And the group feedback was we learned we'd like to have three more dinners. So it seems to have been a success, and we're about to set up a second grip. So people are enjoying the the debate in a safe space and having an interesting conversation. But Neil, we go to the point of how do you bring your soul self to work? We're all of the same generation where we talk about, you know, I keep myself to myself, work is for work, home is for home. Is that right? But what do you mean by bring your whole self to work when you speak with someone?

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yeah, it's so interesting, just the the analogy there of the of the dinners that you used, that you you create this safe space, it's confidential, it's boundaried, and there people can speak freely, and people like that. They like being able to speak from the heart and to speak in a way that's vulnerable that they wouldn't be able to do elsewhere. So I think that's that's a really nice little segue into kind of the point I want to make about bringing your whole self. Because I think the bring your whole self to work concept for me kind of arose from an idea that authenticity is a good thing. You know, I think it goes in the bucket of of good things and it's a good thing for the individual, but it's also a good thing for the workplace. If people can turn up to work and be their true self, if you like, or their whole self, they will be happier, there'll be less absence, less attrition, they'll work harder, less burnout, etc. So I think we can agree that masking your true self is not a good thing. And that's a big part of the work that I do in therapy is helping people be more authentic and and kind of come into their true self. But I think the the the problem comes with the phrase your whole self because I I think for me that implies a lack of any kind of filter and and and a lack of any boundaries. I'm gonna use the B word a lot, I think, on this on this podcast. I think it's really central to this to this point because I think in absence of boundaries, that bringing your whole self anywhere can be exposing and dangerous, frankly. It can be it can be threatening. Um so I think authenticity without boundaries is is as dangerous as being really restrictive and telling people how to be at work.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

I love the Instagram thing that comes up every now and again that says, imagine going to work as a toddler and just, you know, somebody speaks to you and you just scream no in their face and push your hand up or walk off.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

That is exactly the point I would be making that we the the part of us that gets sorry, I'm gonna move into some therapy jargon here, like just slap me if I go too far. The part of us that gets triggered at work, whether that's stress or or exhaustion or burnout or just acting out, as the example you just gave there, is is it's quite a young part of us. It comes from a kind of our our early childhood experiences, and we like it or not, we all bring that part of us to work. So as much as we're all grown-ups and we're all adults, we're all responsible for our own conduct and our own behaviors, we also do still need a bit of parenting. And and I think the the workplace and the the leadership of the of the workplace has a role there, which might be controversial to say, but there is a kind of almost pseudo-parenting role there that the workplace needs to play. And I would argue that as well as kind of encouraging uh employees and colleagues and staff to be the best version and the biggest version of themselves that they can be, I think there's also a role there for setting boundaries, just as a parent would.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

You mentioned, you used the phrase vulnerable, and I'm interested in hearing more about that because I think there's something in that that if someone shares their vulnerability in the workplace, you're able to probably tap into a lot more with that individual of how they work, how they operate, and get the best out of them. And I suppose it's is there a point where it becomes a tipping point? But actually, should we, and as me as a manager, be encouraging my team to show their vulnerabilities so I can support, help them, and get the best out of them? Is that a positive thing?

SPEAKER_00 7:18

I think it depends. I think that's a such a therapist answer, but I think it really depends on the degree of psychological safety that exists in the workplace culture. And psych psychological safety is now a pretty familiar phrase in most workplaces. It's certainly a phrase that's very familiar to us as therapists, and I think it it's become almost a little bit of a buzzword or a buzz phrase, but I think it is often misunderstood and and sometimes even weaponized, you know, to say, well, that doesn't feel very psychologically safe to me, you know, and that's I think it's just I don't think it's that well understood. So for me, the key point here again, it's it's back to the B-word. Like I think saying to people you should be vulnerable, or I I I I want you to be vulnerable, I invite you to be vulnerable, is not the same as creating an environment where it's safe to be vulnerable. So again, mapping this onto a therapeutic environment, like a big, big part of the work I do, probably the first, I don't know, like six to ten to twelve sessions with a client would be establishing that safety, that that that environment of of trust and and safety so that they can be vulnerable. I don't expect them to be able to do that from day one. And it's the same in a workplace. I I don't think it's reasonable or fair to ask people or expect people to kind of share something intimate if they don't feel safe to do so. And that's that's a big that's that's a big hurdle to clear, that hurdle of psychological safety for me, because it's not just about policies and roles and responsibilities, it's kind of about that, but it's also about culture and and and behaviours and and how leaders behave in response to vulnerability, like how do they really respond, regardless of what your values might say or your kind of policies around that might say.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

So I'm 52, you know, grew up in the time where your work was a place where you went and you left everything else behind. And I have to say, over the years, I have enjoyed my work as a very safe space where I could forget what was going on personally and just come in and do my job and not have to think about everything else. And actually, I I remember I was having a hard time at home over something once, and my boss saying to me, You can let it go a bit. It's okay not to be so professional all the time if you really want to, but my way of coping was just to come in and do my job. So what if you don't want to be vulnerable? And I have to say, I quite often find people's stories a bit wearing, like, you know, perhaps it's my generation, but I wish they would just do their job, like do your job and go home. I find myself reflecting back on my late father who used to say about the telephone, obviously the BT phone of our generation, say what you've got to say and get off. He was not for my mother who spoke for 59 minutes because at 60 minutes you'll remember they started to charge you, and so at which point she'd put the phone down and and call you back. But what about people like us? I'm interested in you, I like people, but you know, just do your job.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

I think that's a really good point that not everyone wants to bring your their whole self to work. I think there is this assumption that with authenticity being an inverter, commas good thing, that everyone has to bring their whole self to work. And for a lot of people, they quite like the separation there and to keep things compartmentalized in that way, it's just some people think that way. I do think there's a generational thing there though, Alex, as well, where I think there's an expectation among younger generations, I suppose millennials and and particularly Gen Z, where th those lines are quite blurred, and I guess that maybe comes from just a different set of values, but also they're the first generation really that's had kind of working from home kind of embedded in the working practices. And so the lines are blurred, right? You know, the boundaries are blurred. But I think that also creates expectations from that generation as well, that not just that it's okay for them to bring any personal issues that they might be having, but that there should be support provided for that. So it's interesting what you just said there about like a boss or a colleague saying, you know, it's okay to not be professional for for a time. I think that's okay. Like I think it that that's that's supportive to say, look, I know you're going through something. What do you need from me? Because I just want you to hear that it's okay for you to kind of take your foot off the gas a little bit. We need you to be okay, versus this kind of like download of everything that's going on, and and I now expect you to help me through this. And I think that's that's very difficult for leaders and particularly for people professionals who are hearing this, you know, meeting after meeting, day after day, are expected to kind of take on someone else's issue. Oh well, take on, but to help help resolve and help fix other people's issues. And and and that that itself leads to exhaustion and burnout for for for those people that are being asked to do that.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Mandy, you'll remember one of our colleagues at the dinners spoke very eloquently and very interestingly about working for a very big brand that all of us would know, about how they were so terrified that the media would go for their brand if something happened to someone, that they went to the nth degree supporting their workforce, and you could effectively ask for anything, particularly around mental health, and that their first thought if something did happen to someone was, you know, did we have something in place to have prevented that so that it wouldn't be a backlash in the media? And I think they said they effectively felt they were almost controlled by people's needs and and wants in the workplace because of the backlash on them. And then I guess what I'm saying is, you know, the tail was kind of wagging the dog and in a funny way. It was a it was a really interesting point of view that I hadn't heard before, Amanda.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Well, I mean, I think that goes back to one of our previous podcasts on does EHR need a glow-up. And I think our conclusion was actually they need more support because of this transition where people were bringing their whole selves to work, that they were seen as the the therapist, the parent, to sort of reference what you were saying there, Neil, and they were having to be all things to all men. And that was actually taking its toll on the HR community because people were knocking on their door with serious mental health issues. And I think the problem is that there is often these DI policies that are pedaled to say bring your whole self to work. This is the hook that our business is selling ourselves on because we think will attract good talent, but there is a disconnect between what the leadership want and actually what your policies say. And I think I think that is kind of where you're coming from, Neil, in terms of that psychological safe space. Because often what I find is that I could look at policies in an organization and they will say, We offer X, Y, and Z, all this mental health stuff, and then the team leader comes to HR and says, you know, Dave was my top performer, but he's having some trouble at home and he's just not performing. And there is a sort of period where you mentioned Alex, someone says take your foot off the pedal, but that can happen, but folk are quite impatient, like your mum and dad, realistically, and they're like, Well, I've cut you some slack, but I want you to just transform now. So it's almost worse for the employee that they feel like they're given a lifeline, and it can often quickly be pulled away, unless there's genuinely a culture of safety that will support their staff to the nth degree. And I think there has to be something in the middle. I am actually quite cynical about this whole bring yourself to work. Obviously, as a lawyer, I'm looking at it from the liability issue, the legal perspective, so clashing rights, because it covers things like people's opinions and feeling that they can actually debate things openly without fear of reprisal. And you're like, well, that can't happen. And in the current environment with so much going on politically, people having different beliefs on the country's perspectives, etc., it just seems very dangerous. And it's like trying to navigate a way of what, if we are to say bring your whole self to work, what does that actually mean in the context of employment law, professionalism, and actually respecting everyone's rights? So back to you, Alex. I don't want to hear all your woes. I I want to just do my job, get through it, and go home. How do we create a balance?

SPEAKER_02 15:38

I do want to hear some of your woes because normally I would care about you. But for me, I often think there's a line, and I think we can be very indulgent of people. And I have to say, I think it's often the same people. It's a bit like, you know, sickness absence. The moment there's a bug goes round, you can pretty much guess who in your office is gonna be sick first, second, and third. Now, one of those will be genuine because they have a low immune system or or whatever, but there's always a few people who will push it first of all, and they tend to be the same people, I think, who will want to share their their woes with you.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Neil's thinking, you're the two individuals that I get all my clients from.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Yeah. I've got your entire team in my practices.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

So let me say this. If you're unhappy at work, it goes home with you and you think about it all the time. If you're unhappy at home, if you have a great job, you can go to work and forget about it for a period of time. Therefore, what you do as a recruiter is important because you are effectively helping people find happiness and satisfaction and all the things that go with that. Now, maybe that is not true anymore. If you bring your whole self to work and you take your whole self home, maybe you're miserable all the time, or maybe you're happy all the time.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

For me, there's there's the distinction here between being, so being yourself, and just in an unfiltered way articulating every thought that comes into your head as it comes into your head. And I know that's not what you're suggesting. I'm making a kind of extreme analogy to make the point here, but I think you said like political opinions, you you mentioned there. Like I think most people would agree that there needs to be a boundary there that you shouldn't, in a in most workplaces, be just marching around the office sharing extreme political opinions or even you know, slightly milder political opinion. You know, it that needs to be done with care. It needs to be done with an understanding that is going to be received in a certain way by the other person. You know, I think that one of the problems with the whole self-concept is the word self because it is like it's selfish, right? Like it, you know, there is good selfish, which is like I'm thinking about myself, and I'm like, I have compassion for myself, and I, you know, and I and I love myself and I'm working on myself, all these things, these are all good things. But I think that neglects the fact that we are relational beings, first and foremost. The humans are relational animals, and workplaces are relational spaces, so it's not valid just to say, well, the self is the only thing that's important here. It's not, it's it's self in relation. So, how does my whole self, if you like, or my true self relate to the other people in this workplace? That is relevant, you know. That can't be just kind of brushed away or swept aside. And I guess that comes back to the point I was making about boundaries and about kind of some limits on this. And I think for me, that's at least partly around you know, communication and articulation of something. It's about integrating the different parts of yourself and choosing when to share those different parts.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

I liked your point where you said it can be quite selfish if you just express your opinions willy-nilly. And I think again, and I know we're looking at the generational thing, and Alex and I do do it tongue in cheek to some extent. Although if I did share my problems with her, she would usually laugh and say, get over yourself. So yeah, that's helpful too. But I think the Gen X folk probably do feel when they're encountering some of the younger folk, it's like me, me, me, is that sort of feeling. And I wonder if there is some sort of scope for understanding, because that's just indoctrination when you're growing up of how you were meant to behave and an expectation that was imposed on you to essentially mask yourself that you're now living with, which can't be healthy either. And is there something about meeting in the middle and how we could utilise people like you, Neil, in the workplace to almost say, Well, what does you know bring your whole self to work mean? And could we get different generations around the table to discuss what does it mean for you? What does it mean for you, and how do we actually come together and understand? And you're almost lifting the mask for some of the the oldies like me who are scared to perhaps show vulnerabilities, although I think my team would say differently for oversharing often. And then some of the the younger people, you know, and and just bringing that cross-generation. I I think there's a lot to be said of, you know, perhaps misconceptions there.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Yeah, I I totally agree. I and I think the these kind of cross-generational assumptions or generational assumptions, let's say, about how things should be done that have been kind of hard-coded into us. I'm I'm, you know, very much the same generation as you guys, and having been, I wouldn't say indoctrinated, but certainly modelled, let's say, certain behaviours in terms of what's okay and what's not okay. That's difficult to shift. And we might not even know it, we might not even be able to recognise it. So we might not have the kind of introspection or or or even really want to look at that part of us. Never mind be able to articulate it, never mind then to try and work out how you reconcile these two perspectives. So no, I I I I totally agree, Mandy. I think there's there's an opportunity there to kind of get different generations, just different viewpoints, different kind of starting points in terms of this this idea together to try and find a way for it to work. Because the reality is it's not one or the other. It's not, you know, it will not be the old way and it's not the the new way. If you like, there is a third way and a middle way, which is a little bit horses for courses as well. You know, we're we're talking as if this kind of can just map onto any organization. I think it very much depends on the nature of the organization and the existing culture and extent to which leadership are, I guess, open to change. But yeah, absolutely. I think that would be a really constructive discussion to have.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

I think one of the reasons this came up as such a conversation around the trans issue was that the law was quite ambiguous for quite a while. Um and then one of the HR directors we were speaking to said that in the past what she would have said is you know, the law says you must use the toilet of your birth gender. But you know, and she said she'd probably have added previously, but you know, nobody's really looking, do whatever suits you kind of And essentially, in her way, she's bringing herself to work because she's not bothered which gender you choose to be, as long as you are happy and comfortable. Where she has got to in this conversation is that the law is now being implemented much more heavily. Albeit that is her personal view. If she was asked now, she feels she would have to say, you need to use the bathroom of the gender you were born with, end of. And then nobody's really bringing their whole self to work because the person who is trans doesn't want to be in that bathroom. And this is not to debate the trans issue. And the person giving the information is also not giving what they believe to be or the answer in their heart, if you like. And then nobody's really bringing their own self to work. But legally, everybody's doing the right thing. And that was just a sort of really depressing conversation, wasn't it, Mandy?

SPEAKER_01 22:50

I mean, I think the irony of what that objective about bringing your whole self to work was actually to bring people together and say we're all equal and we're all in it. But I think actually what's happened is it's it's polarized people, and I I think sometimes it's it it's almost created barriers in a way it was never intended. So I suppose it's coming back to, and this is why it's so helpful to have the chat with you, Neil, is if we remove that labelling of bring your whole self to work, it's really just how do you navigate the workplace in this current crazy world to make sure you preserve your best mental health? And you know, you spoke about boundaries quite a lot. How what advice would you perhaps give us in the workplace navigating these issues as to how we can feel that we can express some vulnerability without entirely ending up feeling like we are subject to disciplinaries or it overwhelms us to the extent that we've exposed too much of ourselves and that's not good either.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

I mean, like it I think it it is obviously a well-being issue, and I guess that maybe that's the the the kind of angle you would expect me to come at this from, but I think it's also a performance issue. You know, I think getting the best out of people requires that balance to be struck, and it's obviously a people risk issue, and I'll defer to to you, Mandy, on on that as well. But I think for me, you know, I think from kind of almost from the top down, you've got kind of yeah, there's cultural change, and we've spoken a little bit about that, and that's a that's probably a whole other podcast, right? Is in terms of like the the shifts in bid area that would be required from leaders to actually embed a cultural change there. But yeah, we definitely have views on that and and definitely can can work with leaders on that. There's also the policy piece, and again, I I'll I'm not the expert on that on this call, so I I will uh I will defer. But I think clarifying roles and responsibilities and where they where they start and end. I think it was maybe you Alex said earlier about like kind of where where does it end? You know, like if we are anxious about being accused in public or perhaps even in court about not having done enough to support someone's mental health, where does that end? What is a reasonable expectation on leaders and organizations in in that respect? And does it end when we pass over an employee assistance programme number, for example, and say, okay, I've done my bit, it's it's now up to you. So I think clarifying that would would be helpful. But I think there's also a piece about skills, both for leaders, managers, but also for people professionals. You know, I think people professionals and HR professionals, just because of the job they do and the job title that they have, and generally, let's be real, the type of people they are are just expected to have these skills already, almost to be therapists. I think Mandy, you said that earlier. Like, and I it's just not reasonable, it's not fair. So I think there's a there's a an upskilling or a different skilling, if you like, of of the people that are coming into contact with the the the sharp end of the whole self-culture, if you like. So that's about kind of noticing emotional signals or red flags when someone is struggling. It's about you know having the courage to kind of go into that conversation and to listen with with empathy. But it's also about kind of, yeah, getting back to this roles, roles and expectations piece. It's about stopping short as well of of kind of of rescuing or fixing that person. It's about putting those boundaries in place and knowing where those are and what's appropriate. And then lastly, I I think it's about and we we touched on this earlier, about how do those people who are hearing this, how do they cope? You know, how do they have the kind of self-compassion to to just carry on and and and to to keep going back into those conversations and and not to take on other people's pain and take that home into their own lives, because that again will just will just lead to burnout.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

It's interesting you talk about masking earlier. You know, clearly there was loads of kids when we were at school that had different forms of ADHD, etc., etc. And now it's it's recognized, but masking often goes along with that, and we talk about kids that are masking at school, particularly girls, and they're exhausted. I wonder how that will play out as that generation moves into the workplace where we're telling them not to mask. And I'm certainly not advocating kids hiding it and coming home exhausted, etc. etc. But it's interesting that we are much more open about it now and where will that lead for the next group?

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Yeah, this this is something that we see in our therapy practice as well. We so we are a kind of a neuro farming practice, and and you know, broadly at a high level, what that means is that we we kind of believe in neurodiversity and we would try to kind of honour your own experience and have that as central rather than kind of s slapping a label on it. But I've also mentioned the importance of boundaries and there are certain behaviours or traits, if you like, that that may would make coming along to therapy and analogously coming along to our workplace quite difficult. So it's not about just open house on on all traits of neurodivergence, like because I think again back to my point that workplaces and therapy rooms are relational spaces, and we have to bear that in mind and that that will have an impact on the the the people around us and on on on the workplace and the organization itself. So yeah, I think the the the kind of blend of kind of reasonable adjustments from um I suppose a disability discrimination perspective, but also I think ADHD in particular, but also autism just to an extent is at risk of being weaponized as a kind of absolute thing, as a thing, well I've got ADHD, so of course I'm gonna behave in this way and need this need need this adjustment. And the reality, of course, is that it's even within the the the ADHD community, there's a whole spectrum of experiences. And so in the therapy room, it's relatively easy for us to kind of like sit down and really take the time to understand what that person's experience is like. But I think in a workplace that's much more difficult. So I don't have a solution there. I I suppose I'm just kind of sharing my understanding that that would be that is that is something that is going to need to be navigated.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

It's interesting, isn't it? Because I'm helping a client just now put a new team together and there's seven people in the in the team. You know, what does a team need? And there's lots of expert who can do this much better than I you know I I can in terms of profiling. You know, you need you need some high flyers, you need some backbone people, you need a couple of I mean, I called somebody a Pit Pony the other day which raised an eyebrow, but you do need someone who will just plod through all of the bits. If you have a team of seven people who all are striving to be the boss, it doesn't work. So you want different personality types in a team, and that includes neurodiversity because it brings interesting different thoughts that we're not used to. It's funny, I'm just reflecting on a really good friend of mine who is gay and older than I am, who for years, you know, wasn't out at work. And you can see, and and I'm sure he would say about his career, he had a much better career and he had a good career before, when he finally came out at work, because it was just easier. You know, even the kind of basic banter in the office of what did you do at the weekend, you know, he wasn't trying to cover up who he spent his weekend with. Now, the world has massively moved on from that in a really, really good way. Sometimes it feels with some of the kids like it's maybe gone a bit far, but it looks like improvement. So it'll be interesting when our kids, Neil, yours a bit older Monday, it work in age, you know, what what the shape of teams will look like in terms of their diverse makeup of brain power and things, I guess. And also like the who who works five days, who works four days, who can only work two days? I mean, it might be so different. But then again, you know, it might be like the Jetsons, it might never happen. We might all be back in the office five days awake, nine till five. So with all of us desperate to go home and live our real lives.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Don't think we're anywhere near the end of that discussion. In fact, I think we're we're barely beginning. And I think my overarching approach would be similar to Mandy, what you were suggesting earlier around kind of different kind of generational perspectives on things, is to have an honest open dialogue about it. And that's very difficult to do in in the current environment. I can hear even as we're talking about it, we're kind of moderating a little bit how we talk about it. Because it it feels quite it feels quite dangerous to go into that space. So I I'm not sure if we, society, are quite ready for that conversation yet, but I but I think it does need to happen at some point, and because I think right now it's just feels too difficult. But I think there's a bit of water to go under the bridge first, is my is my personal view.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

Well, Neil, I was cancelled by my kids many years ago.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

So And you wear as a badge of honour.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

She absolutely does. I'm ashamed, I'm ashamed to say. Well, I think it's been fabulous to have you, Neil, not least because many people have said over the years that Mandy and I should get some therapy, and now obviously it looks like we've had some.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

I'll say I'll send you the invoice afterwards.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

We can say we've started the journey. I mean, I think you're right. I think this will run. And I I think there's a real crossover between, as Mandy, I think you said at the start, bring your whole self to work is not the same as having it all. And that's a really difficult thing sometimes to explain to people. Everything is is not on offer, but we do want you to be the best version of yourself because the best version of yourself tends to be the best version for all of us. If you're happy, everything else tends to sort of slot into place, doesn't it? That's a nice place to end, Alex. You're welcome. Thank you so much, Neil, for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

No, you're very welcome. Thank you so much for having me.