How Much Should People Change for Each Other?

This episode explores the tension between being accepted as you are and being asked to grow within a relationship. It digs into when change is a sign of love and investment, and when it starts to feel like losing yourself.

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SPEAKER_04 0:14

Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the Reboot Diaries. I'm Jesse.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

I'm Cynthia.

SPEAKER_04 0:20

And today we're going to talk about as we all are growing, learning, changing over time, how much should people change for each other? So looking at growth versus acceptance of the other person or of yourself. You go first.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Well, I think first of all, I have a lot to say about this. I think a lot of it has to do with the extent to which somebody wants to change. Let's just say if I like I really want to start walking. And let's just say I have a friend who's really into walking and wants me to, you know, walk with her, that involves some type of change. It's a thing of where I really want to start walking. And so I think that that's something that I'm gonna be more open to. If somebody, you know, wants me to stop watching Korean dramas, that's just not gonna happen. I mean, it's just if somebody wants me to start eating meat, that's just not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_04 1:32

What if someone wants you to take a real vacation?

SPEAKER_01 1:35

That's just not gonna happen. Really? No, I'm joking. I would love to go to South Korea. That 100% I would love to do that. You know, I've gotta, you know, get get my money in order. But oh no, I that I I would love to do it's just here's the thing in terms of vacation. I know you're very pro-vacation. I'm not anti-vacation unless the you know destination begins with a D. Um but um, but I just it's you know, circumstances are such that the you the timing is not good for me. But anytime that I've traveled, I've I have very much enjoyed it, especially going to different countries.

SPEAKER_04 2:21

So you you listed some of the things like if they wanted you to stop watching K-dramas, eat meat, like why are those, like what is it about those qualities that make them like non-negotiables for you? And I don't necessarily mean like specifically those, but like how do you differentiate between like, oh, this person wants me to change this? Is that reasonable or not?

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Well, I mean, some of it I would say has to deal with what is the motivation? And if I were to look at those two things in terms of K-dramas or meat, the motivation would be so they can be more comfortable. Um, I look at me getting out and walking as so you know you can have better health and your legs don't hurt so much. And this, and I even I you know would love to get your your company. I mean, I think that that's that's uh fantastic too. But I think that a lot of it is really the motivation and the intent. And I also think that sometimes people want other people to change so they can control, and I think that as you at least for me, I can say, as I have aged, I just really am not very concerned about how comfortable other people are. I there's nothing that I can do or that I want to do uh when it comes to um you know me changing in order to make them more comfortable. You know, this is we're not a middle school anymore. At least I'm not a middle school anymore, and I don't have a middle school mentality. And uh so this whole idea of me changing, it really depends on what it is. Now I do have thoughts in terms of other people changing, but I want to hear from you first, in terms of, you know, if if a friend, your husband, whomever wants to see you change in a certain area, uh, you know, what's your reaction?

SPEAKER_04 4:26

I don't want to unknowingly be causing people pain or grief. And so if I have habits or ways of doing things that are doing that are creating that, I want to dive into that and see like, is it a habit that like doesn't mean much to me? It's just literally was a thing that for whatever reason was there, like that's a different thing to change. But if it's something that I do to serve me in some way that they might not understand, like I want to have more of a dialogue because like then what habit replaces it without hurting me and help, but also helping you. So, like that to me, I think a lot of like communication habits in that area, right? Um, because what's important to me is I need to feel like I can be honest with people and not tiptoe around them. What's important to other people is feeling respected. Those things aren't mutually exclusive, but takes a lot of practice. And that's like that's hard. I think there's certain things about myself that I've been like, yeah, I don't think I can change that and realize that's not true. It's more that like I don't I think that the amount of energy that it would take to change that would take a toll that I don't have enough in my reserves to do right now. Like for real. You know, I got a lot, I always got a lot going on, but I like everyone else has a lot going on and I don't want to set myself up for failure. So if I'm not causing myself like immediate harm, like I would love to eat less sugar. I would love that anyone that is with me is doing small things to help me not eat sugar. Also, it would be setting myself up for failure in my current equation to just say I'm not eating sugar and it'd be wasting everyone's time to try to change that behavior with me. Whereas if someone else initiated the idea of not eating sugar, I would be like, that's not your choice. Like, why are you trying to get me? Like, why are you trying to do that? That's not that's weird. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 6:39

What do you think about passive aggressive ways to get you to change?

SPEAKER_04 6:45

Uh hard past not going to be friends anymore. I don't need that in my life. And that has come with age. As someone who used, I mean, was I passive aggressive or just aggressive? It's hard to say. But like that's something like I it's honestly it's probably a deal breaker for me in relationships, like friendships and stuff like that. Like, and I don't mean like an occasional comment when you had a bad day. I mean like if that's your communication or but it's like, okay, I'm not gonna be your friend, not I'm gonna try to change you.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 7:17

If my friend suddenly started to become, after three years of friendship, really passive aggressive, then I would also just approach it as like, I'm worried about you because this isn't you.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 7:29

And that that's different than like, I don't like this, so don't do it.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Yeah, yeah. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 7:35

What about you? I'd imagine you also don't have the patience for passion passive aggressive things.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Well, I don't like it, I don't like the feeling of being manipulated or beat. And that's kind of I how I translate pran uh being you know passive aggressive techniques to trying to manipulate or trick somebody, and that doesn't feel good. That doesn't feel good.

SPEAKER_04 8:01

No. Did you ever have like friends who were like he can change? And you're like, no, he can't.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Oh my let me tell you, there are people that I wouldn't think should come with a warning label in terms of you know, when it comes to engaging in relationships. So yeah, I I I I think that we all evolve. I don't think that we evolve overnight. But I do believe that we all evolve, and I would hate to be judged for the person I was five years ago, ten years ago, twenty years ago. Oh gosh, yeah. Um, but you know, when it comes to I don't know if I ever told you this. I think I have, stop me if I have. My nephew, who's a grown man now, when he was little, he was about four at the time, his mother was doing something to annoy his mother. He was acting up, and he wanted to listen to some children's song. And uh the mother said no. And then he started singing John Legends, he was four years old, he started singing John Legends I Can Change. And then after the song, he said, Okay, can I listen to it now? And that's kind of how I and that that has always stuck with me in terms of that's really the intention behind people who claim to change overnight. They're not gonna say, okay, you know, it's not gonna be as as blunt or as explicit, but that's essentially what's happening.

SPEAKER_04 9:40

Yeah, I mean, change is a process. And and that applies to literally any type of change. Even if you're just changing your socks, you've just created additional labor of washing said socks. Like it is like if there is a there is a ripple, it is a process. Like, and that is why change is not your favorite, probably.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Well, but then I mean, also I think oftentimes when we think about change, we uh we think about being better. And I think about I don't know, I think that I think about being better with evolve, being uh able to evolve. That's fair. But um in terms of change, I think that a lot of the change that I have seen in myself is the ability to just be more focused, and that might not necessarily serve other people, but it definitely serves me.

SPEAKER_04 10:36

Yeah, it does. I'm very jealous of it. Yeah, I think it also depends on when someone's the thing that you might wish would change about a person, how how close is it to their identity? That to me is a big thing. If you are going into any platonic, romantic, whatever relationship, and you see something that is like the person likes that habit or they're just so attached to it because it's part of their identity, and you're like, I'm gonna change that, that is gonna be miserable for both of you. I had like I had a friend who's like seeing someone, and that someone was telling them they needed to do less of a habit that was very not good for him, like objectively speaking. And they were and I literally left. I was like, oh, I would never waste my time talking to you about changing that. Like, I would never waste my time, and that does not mean I support the habit. And like, why would they think they could get you to change something that is such a part of every minute of every day for you?

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Who you are, yeah. Yep, yeah, it's who you are.

SPEAKER_04 11:51

For other people with the same habit, it's not. So, like, I get maybe having the initial thought, but I don't know, man. Once people have things like tattooed on them, they're so important to them, it's pretty locked in.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

I I think about the book we were talking uh on a previous episode about the let them theory. And after reading that book, that has helped me just to let so many things go. And I have been much happier because of it. Because especially when you're talking about people who are good and grown, people are gonna do what they're gonna do, and you know you you gotta let them and you gotta do what you gotta do.

SPEAKER_04 12:35

I was reading something recently, I didn't read the whole thing. It sparked like not enough curiosity, just enough for like an intro paragraph. Uh but I think it was geared, it was geared towards all genders, but around my age group of you know, people who are in committed long-term romantic relationships, at a certain point, you just have to call it and they've grown as much as they're gonna, like they're interested in growing. And no matter what they say, like this is it. Like what they show you is who they are. And so even if they say they'll get better about trying to think of something I'm bad at, being on time to things like you have many years of evidence that that is an ingrained thing. Technically it could, but it is so unlikely you can't attach to the fantasy, it's gonna change. And so you either have to accept it or you get out.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:28

Would you say that's true to any particular point in relationships?

SPEAKER_01 13:31

Oh, yeah, 110%. I mean, I think the older you get, the more kind of set in your ways and ingrained that you are. And um, you know, it's interesting because I think that as you get older, you really want to see small changes, but then there are some folks who take drastic changes, which involves cutting people out. Yeah. And then some of it is good. You know, I, you know, just I was on uh podcast with somebody yesterday, and the host um experienced breast cancer, and it was uh, you know, one of the most dangerous kinds. She said when that hit, she got rid of every toxic thing, every every toxic thing in her life. And uh that's radical, and it was necessary. And she is still alive. And this was when she told me this story was 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_04 14:33

Yeah. I mean, I can I can see I actually can see myself doing that. Things just get so real that you can't you can't dilly-dally and you can't pretend. I can see that. What do you think is more important, like to be fully accepted as you are by like a partner, like a friend, or to be challenged to become better?

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Uh I think you know, I think a lot of it is timing. Um I I really think that a lot of it is timing. You know, I I have one uh friend who subtly tries to change things with me, I would say. And it is always in the spirit of being in my best interest. Um like 110%. I think it really just depends on I think it just depends on the circumstances. What do you think?

SPEAKER_04 15:39

I think there's a balance. I think if like you're trying to change something, someone to accommodate your preference, oh yeah, hard pass. Because that's what I see a lot of people doing. Like, oh, I want them to like take me out more, or like you know what I mean? Like, they're just they don't, they're not a go-out person. Like, right, that's there are so many people that are that person, go be that person's friend. It doesn't mean you're not this person's friend at all. It's just like don't try to like force them into that. So, like if it's for your convenience or your like just preference, and I think a lot of what we try to like change about people is really just about preference. Yeah, yeah. Um that is that is not okay. Uh, you're not actually challenging the person to be better. I think it is important to challenge each other to be better because we get kind of so in our own bubble that like self-improvement will unfortunately largely come from feedback from others. Like we don't, I don't, I don't think most people have myself included enough self-awareness to constantly find the next thing to work on. Like in an interview, it's like uh they asked me in an interview recently, um they asked, oh, what's a skill you want to work on? Like what you would want to work on in your next job? And it was like, I'm like, the real answer is whatever you tell me I have to. Or like more god-like.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Right, yeah, and you don't need a job to develop a skill.

SPEAKER_04 17:15

You don't need a job to develop a skill. Well, right now people are hiring for this you having all the skills already. So like I don't want to say something. I mean, this was like for like a different part-time thing, right? Because I'm still working on travel, but um, it was just so funny because I was I like kind of didn't panic, but I was like, I only have not what they're looking for answers. So I didn't I didn't do growing on that one. But you know, that's it's like, well, you tell me what's important to you here, and then I can self-evaluate what you know whether or not I'm good at it. And you could give me feedback over time if I'm good about it. But it's so called that's so context specific. I also think the same quality about me is going to appeal to one person and not appeal to another. And so it's like with that other person, like maybe I'll adjust around them, but it's not like changing to me. There are so few people in the world that I can that I feel like accepted as I truly am around. It's like the thing I think I value most of all. It's funny because some of like one of like someone I've been getting to know, like, I think it is very unusual to accept people exactly where they are. And I think we both did very quickly for I have no idea what reason. And it's kind of nice to know, you know, at this stage of life, there still is this kind of magic connection of someone who just gets how your brain works. We have nothing in common. But we've talked about how we get how the other one's brain works in a way most people don't understand about us. So that's where it's like if someone was trying to change the way my brain worked, like that's to make their life easier, not to make me better. But if someone's trying to help me have better habits because I'm having impact that I am not aiming for, like that, I that's it's I think you, you know, I want both. I want someone to be completely okay with how I ramble, with how weird I am, with how I'm not gonna lie. I want you to be okay with me being bossy. And I want you to be like, you're being too bossy. Yeah, you know, right, right, right, right. I want you to tell me when I let it go too far.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

So I do have a question. I do want to kind of go back to the interview question in terms of a skill. I've have been just thinking about that as I've been paying attention to your other responses. What would have happened if you said, can you just give me a little bit more context behind that question? Like, why is that why is that question important to you? Like, could you ask that? I'm asking.

SPEAKER_04 19:55

Even by my standards, that feels bold, Cynthia. I think it's why is that important? Why is that question important to you?

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Yeah, I mean, like, what I like I I think the question is bold in terms of a skill that you want to develop. Like, I'm really curious, like, what what's behind that question?

SPEAKER_04 20:18

My understanding is it's a it's a question, because I used to early in my career, and this is more of an early career job, um, that question was asked a lot. And my understanding um was it was to gauge self-awareness and that you know some of your improvement areas, like you're self-aware enough that you can say, like, I can do this part better.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

So why not just ask what can you do better?

SPEAKER_04 20:44

Well, to me, that is it's similar enough.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Well, I I guess the thing is why not just ask the question? Like what skill, like I guess, I guess I'm just thinking in terms of how would you as an employee or as a uh candidate even understand all the opportunities that they would have?

SPEAKER_04 21:07

Yes, and that's why I didn't like the question, because it's like look, I'm not clear on what the I mean, you don't know you never know what a job is until you're in it. Period. And so I could be like, based on the job description, I have all of these skills because I am twice the age of everyone else applying. Like, I don't know what to tell you. But um like I know I'm not supposed to say that, but I can alphabetize and excel. So I don't know what, you know, like I don't it was it was a it was a I think it would be hard, it was harder to answer in that context than I I can see if I was interviewing for like, you know, director of employee engagement and they asked me what skill that was, it's such a senior job that that feels weird for a different reason.

SPEAKER_02 21:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:00

So yeah, I mean I was I mean the questions were hilarious, so it didn't even stand out to me. Tell me your experience with these softwares. I have some. Okay, great.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

That to me would be a question that is I I I could see somebody answer asking that question and I could answer that question. Yeah. I mean, there's a it's it's pretty clear. I mean, you don't have to think about the truth.

SPEAKER_04 22:35

Um no, seriously, but But I know what you mean, but I took it differently for a minute and I was like, are you lying? No, I get it, because it's like a very fact-based question.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Right, right, right. But a skill that you would like to develop in an environment in that you know nothing about except for what is on our website, and you don't that's weird. I shouldn't say it's weird, it's dated.

SPEAKER_04 22:59

It's very that is, I think, a I will completely subscribe to that label of it. It is a very like other parts of that experience, it was very dated. Um, I think that there are other ways to gauge self-awareness. My least favorite, you know what I like less than what's was a skill you would work on? Um, what's what's your biggest weakness? Or like where's it tell me about a time you like made a mistake and how did you learn from it? Because they're too easy to give baloney answers to. It's a it's you're not gonna get a real answer to any of that because I think the greatest mistakes you've made are ones you're not aware of yet.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Exactly. And I mean they've been using that question for 30 years. And I guess say 30 years because I'm thinking about you know being in college and you know, the interview prep. I mean, that's like a classic question that you prep for, and I can't believe they're still asking that question.

SPEAKER_04 24:00

Totally still asking versions of that question. Um it's really annoying to me because it's a game.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Yeah, and here's the thing: if you want to know somebody's weaknesses, and maybe there are limitations to which you can ask questions, but like that's where when you talk to coworkers and bosses, and I mean, like, that's like where all that stuff comes out.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Um But you're not supposed to do that.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:31

I mean, for me, it's like as an interviewer, I want you to actually give me your biggest weakness so that I know if it will make you miserable here or not. Period.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Well, so then maybe one of the things is you put out a scenario in terms of of these three scenarios, which would be the one that would drive you the most bananas? Of course, you can't say it like that, but you know.

SPEAKER_04 24:58

That is um similar to some of the many, many questions I had to complete for the personality test for that holiday retail story, the holiday retail job I took.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

Really?

SPEAKER_04 25:12

Yeah, one of the jobs was like, do you gossip with coworkers when the coworker's not around? And it's like, yeah, I'm bored. I gossip about myself more than anyone else, though. Don't worry, I won't get out of control. I'm a nice gossiper. Um but yeah, I mean, kind of rerouting it, it is important to me to be fully accepted for the things that make me unique and that I'm okay with about myself. I don't think there's a lot of things that I'm even if I'm okay with something that's not a great quality, I probably am okay with it for now. I've probably put it in the parking lot of things that are not code red. But like I have reached points in my life, especially in my 20s, where I was like, I can't grow anymore. I'm tired. I am tired. I do not like, I do not need challenges, I do not need growth opportunities. I need to coast emotionally or mentally or both.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

And how do you feel about that now?

SPEAKER_04 26:26

Well, I'm talking about if certain things happen or don't happen, I am going to drive off just in the eastward direction in the month of June and just see how that goes because I won't be able to take it anymore. I'll just need to kind of coast through things for a little while. Like I feel like I was right to acknowledge that you can't constantly push yourself.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 26:51

Not physically, not emotionally, not mentally. You cannot constantly push yourself. Best case, you can alternate between those three, but you gotta at least have some days where you're just watching Xena lying with your dogs on the couch, eating some Easter candy. Like you gotta still have those like moments. I am not good at taking them, you are worse at taking them. Well, that's because I love what I do. Okay, so before you loved what you did, when you were okay, so you like doing research, but you're not always you weren't always in control of what you were researching before. So I'm sure you had days where you're like, ugh, I just want to zone out, correct?

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Uh well, yeah, but then that was, I mean, if you're talking about the research job that I had, the job was much was I mean, it was uh a lot of it was business development, which meant writing proposals, which was, you know, a lot of pressure, not a lot of time to do a lot of work, uh, meant doing a lot of work on, you know, after work and on the weekends. So yeah, I did not enjoy that. What I I love what I do now. I love building and creating and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:16

Has there ever been something you have changed about yourself for whatever reason, and then you regretted changing?

SPEAKER_01 28:27

That is a really good question. I mean, once I got bangs.

SPEAKER_04 28:41

Okay, maybe that's valid. Why did you get the bangs?

SPEAKER_01 28:45

You know, I just wanted to mix it up. I thought it would make me look better, and yeah, I you know, kind of regretted it.

SPEAKER_04 28:55

More specifically, is there ever anything you've changed about what you feel like are parts of your personality or how you just go through on the day-to-day that you changed for someone else and wish you hadn't?

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Um, I would say not recently. I have not. Um, yeah, I would 100% say. And I and I think that, Jesse, the reason is is that of as I have aged, um, I don't know. I think that I've really just kind of come into myself and I appreciate the importance of everybody is different. And I think that with me, I'm most comfortable when I lean into who I am. Uh, and I really do look at it as other people's, you know, concerns and problems that I just can't do anything about uh if there are different expectations.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

And I and I mean don't get me wrong, I I really think it is important to be, you know, uh polite with folks and kind, but I also think that sometimes you've got to be firm in terms of boundaries. Um and you know, I think it's important for you to be, you know, true to the person that you are.

SPEAKER_04 30:27

I mean, I'm relieved to say, I don't think I've ever changed something for the benefit of a like friend or human being in my life. That's I regretted because I think they were all good growth, because they were like basically I got perspective, and then I was like, oh yeah, no, that's not the ideal for me either. Like, let's do this. But I have changed things for co-workers and jobs that they're event affected me outside of the work environment in ways that made me feel not great about who I was. And like my friend gave me the feedback I don't know, a couple years ago, um, because I was just so nervous about everything all the time. And I was like, well, I can't just say what I think. And they were so sad to hear that, but they're like, but you're Jesse. I'm like, yeah, but I can't do that. Like, I really regretted doing that in business school because I feel like I could have made more connections if I had done that and then this and that, blah, blah, blah. And they were like just so sad. And we're talking about like that being my experience now and like having those regrets. And I don't feel necessarily the same way now. I just wish that I'd made more conscious of a decision as to what's what I wanted to do instead of like, I mean, that was those were rough years, man. Like, I always had so much going on. I just like couldn't have enough self-awareness, I think. Um, I was self-conscious, but not self-aware. So I don't think I've ever changed anything about my personality that that I didn't feel good about working on um in my personal life. But um I have unfortunately had to adapt to professional environments in ways that I think bring out traits that I do not like at all in myself. Yeah, I do not like. So I remember one job, this was a few jobs ago, seeing my boss, who I think was like a genuinely nice person, and I was seeing what the job was doing and the company culture was doing to her, and how it was changing her, and you know, this idea of like be firm and like you know, don't don't be a pushover, be firm, and all this. And I was looking at what it was doing to her, and I was like, I don't want that to happen to me. That was one of my biggest motivations for leaving the company.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Uh was and it won't happen to you as you run your travel business. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:02

Yeah. I was like, if you have to be like that to succeed here, then I'm not interested in here being where I succeed. Also, very different climate for job searching at the time. But um, you know, that was when I started to realize like to be a little less hard on myself for not succeeding as much as I would like to in in at that job in that moment. Um and I'm a little worried right now. Like I need to get some of my friends to watch me at work a little bit because I don't want to bring out some overly no nonsense behaviors that are easy to very easy to unlock in me.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 33:41

But will always be there to some degree. It's just about like, you know, not shoving them in a box as much as understanding that they are tools in a chest and maybe they're not the first one you reach for.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:56

But yeah, there's things I'm glad I've changed about myself that I never would have changed if I didn't have motivation. And people are the motivation.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I mean it's it's it's really great to be surrounded by people who really want to see you grow uh in the spirit of you, you know, being happier, being more satisfied, being able to do things that otherwise you might not be able to. So I get that.

SPEAKER_04 34:23

Do you feel like in Pride and Prejudice, Mr. Darcy was changing for uh for Elizabeth, or do you feel like he got feedback and chose on his own to change because I can't remember.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

And I told you I didn't watch your thesis. I know there was Did I ask you this question before? No, it was 30 years ago, but I did I remember we talked about the book, yeah. Right. But no, I said that I was gonna watch the movie and I never did. Which version was I supposed to watch?

SPEAKER_04 34:51

I mean any, but the efficient part of me tells you to watch the 2005 version.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

2005, I've got to be a good one. That's okay. Oh no, okay. I'll watch the 2005. I will watch that. I I would love to be able to say I'll watch it on a plane ride to vacation, but I'm not gonna start making promises I know I can't keep, but I can't 2005.

SPEAKER_04 35:15

So how okay, actually, I'm gonna one, we're gonna have to have like maybe an episode about 2005's Pride and Prejudice, even if it's not related to the reboot diaries generally. Um the have you ever lied to someone about trying to change something that you're not actually trying to change?

SPEAKER_01 35:36

Uh yeah, every year I go to the doctor, I get on the scale, I take off my sweat, I take off my earrings, I take everything off. I don't eat the morning of, I don't drink anything. Uh so yeah, I mean, like that was give me a hard question. That was an easy question. What about you? Do you have you?

SPEAKER_04 35:57

I think I'm sure I have. Because I was like a punk at various points. I'm like, I was like, it's a little smart, Alex. So I'm sure I have, but I it's a conversation I've had with you know a couple people where it's like I kind of feel like they're lying to themselves about whether they're gonna change this thing, and therefore they are default lying to me.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Is it that they're lying or that they're detached from reality?

SPEAKER_04 36:29

Like, is it that they're like consciously know that they're telling a lie or that they're like, no, I know I think that they like I don't think that they know that they're lying to themselves. I think that they think like, yes, this is gonna be the time that I change this habit that I've been in for 50 years. This is gonna do it. Like when like every New Year's when everyone's like, this is the year I'm gonna lose 20 pounds, it's not. It's definitely not like nope. So I think it's that kind of thing where they like talk themselves up for to it, or they um they they want to change it, but it's just so hard they haven't figured out how how, and they like forget that they haven't figured out how, and therefore they're not gonna be able to change it.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

I think that happens. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:19

I can't think of an example of me doing that, probably because I'm still in denial in those places. I can say a lie to myself because when I was like desperate for a job and I wanted to reach out to a leader who I knew would have something that was hiring that they could hook me up with, I was like, I'm gonna tell them that like I can totally keep my mouth shut and become a like, if you tell me to jump, I'll like I'll just do however high you want, like that kind of thing. And I was like really convinced that I could do that at the time. So I lied to myself. Yeah. And realized, you know, a while later, I decided not to reach out because I was like, I can only call that person one time in my entire life. Is this gonna be the moment? Um, decided not to reach out because I was like, I don't know if I could actually do that for more than like an hour a week. An hour. I'm not good at I'm like if you give me instructions and stuff like that, that's fine. That's not what I'm talking about. Like never disagreeing with you. I can never disagree with you. That's not a life we're living, Cynthia. Can't we have a dialogue? So, yes, I can see myself if I had I mean yes, I can see myself lying to myself and therefore others being like, no, I got this.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

I got this.

SPEAKER_04 38:45

And I mean, like, I do not got this at all. I am a lot more honest um in with general with people about like like I've been doing much better. Not to this session, but like I really struggle with like a lot of things to be on time. And some of them are actually like legitimate issues, and some of them are just me making poor decisions. And I've gotten a lot better about being really honest with people so that they can decide if they're like, you know, we're not gonna meet up anymore because you gotta get it together. Like, I'm not gonna make up traffic. But it's tell you, like, nope, I made terrible decisions, or like like I just there was twice twice I was late to this one thing. They're like, is traffic bad? I was like, it is really bad. I did plan on that. I did not plan on me making terrible decisions before the traffic was bad.

SPEAKER_03 39:31

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 39:32

I just I just messed up. And part of that's to hold myself accountable though, and then also just be like, look, if my Pilates teacher dropped me right now because I actually have been doing much better, but I was late to like two out of five appointments. If they dropped me because of that, like I'd rather be honest with them and have them make that choice as opposed to like being pissed off or wondering if I'm lying or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

So wait a minute, they did drop you or if they dropped you.

SPEAKER_04 39:56

No, I'm just saying if they did.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 39:59

It just felt more respectful for me to be honest about like my failings. And I'm a lot more honest about them now. So that's why I'm sure I've done these things where I'm like lying to someone about wanting to change or doing a change in the past. I don't think I'd be very likely to do it now.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Got it, got it, got it.

SPEAKER_04 40:14

One thing I would add, um, just because you don't like something about someone doesn't mean they should change it.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

Hello. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 40:23

And so even if it's like a little bit more than a personal preference, it's like, that's not ideal. It doesn't mean they should change it. And I actually um a friend got really like like snapped at me because I said that a mutual acquaintance we had was just like a little too much for me. Like they were very loud and like out there, and like it was just like it was really hard for me. And they were like, they shouldn't have to change for you. And I was like, I did not say they had to change for me. I actually really like this person and respect this person. Also, I struggle with being around that energy. And so for me, it's more like I need to make sure that I'm moderating so that I can show up in a way that's positive for everyone, not saying that like they needed to tone it down because they that's not my choice to make.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Right, right, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 41:22

So that's like when people are like, I wish they wouldn't such and such. It's like, well, have you communicated that with them? Does it matter to anyone other than you? Are they doing harm to themselves? Like, I'm not saying never have an intervention. I don't generally think that's the thing that's gonna help, but whatever, I don't know. I don't know the research. So no, I I I am naturally someone who would like everyone to be the way that is ideal for me and have learned that that is super messed up to think. So let's just like what can what you know, what's the right interaction for wishful thinking.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

Well, the world does revolve around me, Cynthia. You know, I think it revolves around me, Jesse. Maybe we're a Venn diagram. Nice.

SPEAKER_04 42:14

I love it. Any last thoughts about this idea of growth versus changing for someone else?

SPEAKER_01 42:22

No, I just really think about being able to evolve, and I think that it's possible for everybody to evolve. I think that when you do evolve at the suggestion of other people, it should also, it should, I mean, I don't know. I think that there's always opportunity for people to be better. I do, you know, I think about little things, right? You know, let's just say you and your husband, you know, you you like the dishes put away, your husband doesn't. I mean, like, I think that that's a compromise, right? I think you gotta come to a compromise. But I think that when it comes to, you know, change in general and changing who you are, I really think that it should be in the best interest of the person who has to do something different as opposed to being in the best interest of the person who's asking for it.

SPEAKER_04 43:23

I like that.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

What are your thoughts? Final thoughts, I should say.

SPEAKER_04 43:29

My final thoughts are especially in romantic relationships, especially early on, don't change in ways that make you lose who you are.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 43:42

There is a difference between my partner really likes going to the ballet. And so when her friend that she goes to the ballet with is out of town, I will go with her. So, because she enjoys going with someone. And I am now like researching all this ballet stuff. And pretend and like forcing myself to enjoy it, even though it means I'm no longer going to concerts, and I actually really miss going to concerts. You know, I think the thing people do this a lot with is friendships too. Like if your relationship changes you in ways where you lose your friendships, I mean, there's a chance all your friendships were not healthy, but it's not a very high one.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Right, right, right. It's not a very high one.

SPEAKER_04 44:29

So that's the thing. When people are asking you to change to grow, that's one thing. When people are asking you to change because you think it serves you to grow in that way, whatever, okay. But when someone is trying to mold you into something that you are not, and that's basically like to me, I start to feel that way when they're asking for a whole bunch of things to change. When a whole bunch of things are non-negotiable. Like, even if they're right about every single one of them, that's not gonna work out well. You gotta eat one thing at a time.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:09

So that's like, don't lose yourself. Um, and you know, keep your community, keep your support system. And if someone asks you to change those things, like really look at that. Because if they're asking you to like cut off your family, is that something you were already thinking of? Versus like, oh, they just can't stand my family.

SPEAKER_02 45:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 45:34

Am I just telling the world to be skeptical?

SPEAKER_01 45:37

No, I think those are I think those are really important insights.

SPEAKER_04 45:42

Yeah, I think I I do not want to change in a way where I am unfamiliar to myself. I want to see the past and present and future potential at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 45:56

All right, thank you so much for joining us, everyone, for this talk about how much is changing good. It's bad. Depends on the change, depends on the person. Depends. Thank you for joining us to go down that path. And we would love suggestions on new topics. So if you can email us at hello at meridian by jessie.com. And that's Jessie spelled with an IE. Uh comments, feedback, anything, go ahead and reach out through my travel site there. Take care. Bye-bye.