Productivity: Why Cynthia Won't Take a Vacation

Cynthia and Jessie unpack the difference between being busy and actually feeling fulfilled, and question why productivity so often feels tied to our worth.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:14

Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the Reboot Diaries. I'm Jesse.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

I'm Cynthia.

SPEAKER_05 0:20

And today we're gonna talk about something that quite shockingly, Cynthia selected uh from some options, which is who are you without productivity?

SPEAKER_01 0:29

I can't even believe you gave me options. Why didn't you just tell me that was the topic?

SPEAKER_05 0:34

Because it was easier to take a screenshot than just type anything in. I mean, that's that's low-key exactly what the thought process was.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_05 0:46

So Cynthia, who are you without productivity? Well, okay. You know what? I'm gonna go big. What was the least productive phase of your life?

SPEAKER_01 0:57

I cannot say that I have had an unproductive phase. I can tell you I've had an unfulfilling phase. Yeah, but I cannot, oh well, I will say probably no, I can say that. I would probably say in my twenties. Um and instead of being productive, I was really focused on having fun. And I mean, like, and I had a lot of fun. Like looking back, I don't regret the choices that I made in my 20s. I just remember having so much fun. And I mean, I had fun not at the expense of other people, you know. Right, right. It was just a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_05 1:46

See, I wish I had had much more fun in my 20s, especially my early 20s and late teens. So I, but like to me, it's like that is an accomplishment to me. So I don't I but I like it. You didn't you're more productive in the traditional sense of productive.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Uh-huh. Well, I mean, product productivity now, I mean, takes on a whole new meaning, especially when you work from home, you're self-employed, and I mean, you eat what you kill, and you know, you gotta be productive to survive. So, but for me, I just I love what I do. Like, one of the pro like one of the real problems that I have is I go to bed too late and I wake up too early, and it's just because I'm so anxious and excited about what I'm working on.

SPEAKER_05 2:45

That's literally gross to me.

unknown 2:47

That is awful.

SPEAKER_05 2:49

That is so awful. Like, what I love that for you. I do love that for you. So if you if you so you love what you're working on. Let's say we won't go into like specifics, all of a sudden the work that you're doing that you love like disappeared. It was literally not an option.

SPEAKER_04 3:12

How would you cope?

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Uh I would find something else to be obsessed about. Yeah, you would. And now I have like I'm thinking I just have an addiction problem. Because like I would find something else to cling on to and just go deep.

SPEAKER_05 3:30

How long do you think it would take you? Do you have like a running list in your head of the next things?

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Um not necessarily with the next things, just more that I want to do in terms of building out what I'm already working on. But I mean, I'll tell you, I got laid off in um the end of 2024, so I started 2025 without having an employer. Yeah. And um, you know, I by later that year, I published a book. I mean, so I I can adapt pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_05 4:07

You can. I actually can too, most of the time. I think like this, it was a little different this time because like identity was involved more so than some other pivots. And that's what I kept telling myself as far as like when you were in undergrad, you were studying the art of a rock, and it all got stolen. So you had to pivot then and you did. When you did this, that all changed and you pivoted and you did it then. So like I definitely have it in me, whether I've done it as much in the last you know couple years as other years of my life. I'm not sure it's even worth kind of digging into, but yeah. That is pretty much what I expected you to say, and I feel is accurate. What if you were like literally were in a room by yourself with no computer?

SPEAKER_01 4:52

That would drive me bananas. That would not, oh my gosh, I would probably start scratching my skin, and I just would not like that. But you know, and you know me, I'm not about social media. I just needed to do my work. I would probably have to get out a notepad and a pen. I have such poor penmanship, that's the problem.

SPEAKER_04 5:14

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Um, but no, that I I would not like that at all. So tell tell me what your thoughts are in terms of productivity and and like what does it mean? Like, I always associate productivity with kind of like the professional stuff that I'm working on. I need to think about, you know, getting eight hours of sleep is productive. I'm horrible at that. Exercise is uh productive. Um hit and miss, I'm decent on that. But I guess, you know, when you think about productivity, what are you prioritizing?

SPEAKER_05 5:50

I mean, we've talked about how it became easy for you to prioritize, you know, the things that'll gonna lead to money or most likely lead to money. Um for me, being productive, I mean, I'll go. One of the things that I'm gonna say annoys me that I do see on like social media is people are like, it's productive to rest, right? And to me, I'm like, I feel like you are perpetuating our addiction to productivity and not just saying, like, hey, if you rest, you're gonna have like more stamina to make the other choices, like you know, we should make whatever choices for you. And so I do get a little bit like, but then at the same time, because I am one of those people who was raised to be super productive, I'm like, it's productive to rest, it's productive to rest, and like did go through that phase. Whereas now I'm like, I miss having steady income. I do not work have I mean, I do not miss having to be productive like 70 hours a week. I really do not miss that. And that's just in my profession, not my personal life, errands, all those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Well, I mean, when you're advancing somebody else's interests and goals at 70 hours a week, that I mean, that can't feel good. I I mean like you lose yourself entirely, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, I've I've you know had a place of employment where that was the expectation, and it wasn't explicitly stated, but just how the organization was structured, that was the framework, like in order to meet expectations, that's what you had to do, and that's a whole nother feeling because when you're working 70 hours a week to advance somebody else's agenda, at least for me, there was sadness, depression. I mean, it was I mean, I just remember even thinking at one phase of my life, is this it in terms of oh yeah, this is life? A common thought. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 8:07

I don't know anyone who hasn't had that moment once they've like been in the groove for long enough of just like oh. I mean, I've actually had that thought lately too, even so. I think that's pretty like once you get into a routine for long enough, I think that's pretty normal.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Okay. But um Well, you know, I don't believe in mental health, and I say that being facetious in terms of you know, that's not how I was raised. So, you know, I have these thoughts, and then I just keep them to myself, not you know, recognizing that they're not necessarily uncommon.

SPEAKER_05 8:40

Who better to do a podcast with that includes a topic that talks about mental health a lot? No, I I think that I was fortunate enough that in one of my more recent positions, the mission was so close to my heart that advancing their agenda did not feel the same way as when I worked at other companies. And I think that's why a lot of people burned out there, though, is they were in similar boats. So I I mean there there are there's nuance, but generally speaking, like when you have things that you get excited about, of course you want to push your things that you're interested in more with your energy, not necessarily things that you like are just doing to get by. Because then it becomes survival mode and no one was ever happy in survival mode.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Yeah, that's not a that's yeah, that survival mode I don't think is really sustainable.

SPEAKER_05 9:31

Uh yeah. True story, says says Ms. Survival Mode over on this mic. What do you okay? So I'm dying to know because I was one of these people, and I'm very okay with you judging me. What are your thoughts about people after they either leave a job voluntarily because like they are burnt out? Not because they have like new things going on, but just like I have to leave and figure this out, or people who get like laid off, so kind of sudden changes. Um, what are your feelings about them like just taking time off, taking a vacation, taking time off like that?

SPEAKER_01 10:05

So the first part my body had a positive reaction to. The second part it had a little cringy reaction to, which was the second part being vacation? Yes. Because there's money associated with that. Um, like I did not know that a lot of times when people get laid off, they spend money. Like, I just did not understand that at all. So um, yeah, I think it's good. I mean, I I mean, I think that you kind of need to be able to think and reset and take a break. Um, you know, over the last, you know, year plus, um, you know, being out of the employment situation that I was in really kind of helped clarify what my interests and goals were moving forward. And I would think that, you know, taking time to really think about what I mean, like, I would just think that it would be really hard to jump right in to something else. There's really something wonderful about autonomy and being in a great position to make decisions that work well for you. And I think that's hard to do without taking a break.

SPEAKER_05 11:25

I don't think it's for everyone, and it's hard to do without taking a break. Wait, like um kind of living in that autonomy. Like that, like with the freedom of choice becomes the weight of choice. That's where I struggled. Well, like if something goes wrong in a work environment with like multiple people in a project, hundreds of thousands of employees, like you weren't the only reason it didn't work out. When it's just you, yes, there's lots of factors at play, but it's very hard for me not to process it as though I am the only reason it didn't work out. And obviously it's like there's not that's not a hundred percent factual because there's things like the economy when you're selling services and things like that. But it is I definitely am proud that I've grown grown a lot in the last like 15 years on taking responsibility for my contribution to things, whether good or bad or different. So it's not that I like always wasn't like not my bad, like not my fault. Like you could do it. I absolutely would own things. It's more just the like the weight of it was so much less, even when it was a big mistake, because there was some mitigation almost to the impact. Like it didn't mean I couldn't eat the next day. Whereas like I don't sell trips now, it's a lot of pasta in my future, things like that. So for me, like productivity, you know, it was something that was highly valued in every single environment I grew up in, like at school-wise, um, even extracurricular activities, like pretty huge thing. Um, and into my adult life, it feels very our resistance to resting feels very ableist because some of us need more rest than others. But even putting that big thing to the side, I truly don't think we were meant to live these lives. And I just get tired in ways that are much more aware of than when I was younger. But I do miss working hard and seeing outputs, like I do miss that very, very much. Um, like I don't get to go on the trip and see how awesome it is. I get to see the people come back happy, and that's really, really nice. Like that's very rewarding. But um, yeah, it's definitely a little trickier for me than you to kind of be on my own.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

So let me ask you this what is it that you are productive around now that brings you joy?

SPEAKER_05 14:13

It's a complicated question at the moment because I have not been filled with a lot of joy lately. Things have been a little tough. Um, the things that traditionally bring me joy are not particular, I mean, like they're just not options right now.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

I see.

SPEAKER_05 14:29

And so they are not productive things. When I think about like what makes me happy, um, I think there is such a tie to survival for even like getting new clients that it's more relief than happiness. Um, yes. Dessie has not been full of tons of joy lately, and she's working on that. But um like for me, it's being able like what brings me the most joy. I like helping people, I like supporting people, but at the end of the day, it's really like going to musicals and going to the ballet, like not productive things, but things where I get to be in the moment. They're not contributing to anything other than my happiness in the moment. So I love having like an output that I'm proud of. I love that. Like, so it's not that I'm against I don't feel negative about productivity when I'm feeling productive. I like it, I get the dopamine. I love a checklist. Love it.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

You do love a checklist.

SPEAKER_05 15:28

I love a checklist. Um, and I've got a system that's working better for me now, which I like for my current life situation is working better for me. So I, you know, I love productivity and I've gotten a lot better in the last year probably, at not losing the moments that don't have productivity in them because my brain does very I like the things my brain does sometimes in those moments. I like letting my brain sing a song, I like many letting my brain wonder about things. Like I like that. And like Jesse five years ago would be like, why would do you hate me? Why would you just leave me with my brain? What a cruel thing to do. So I it's just because it was always anxious and going, going, going, going, going, and I'm anxious now, but in a very different way. So, like for me, I asked for like if you were just in like a room alone, like I knew exactly what you'd say. For me, I was like, if there was just like a window that I could stare out of, I'd I wouldn't be in great shape, but I'd probably be in better shape than your average person.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Okay, yeah, that would be hard. That would be hard.

SPEAKER_05 16:32

I mean, it is scientifically true that it would be extremely hard for anyone. But I could just like wonder just wonder things.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

You know, I could do that maybe for five minutes, but then after a while. I don't know, maybe if I had some Benadryl, I'd be okay.

SPEAKER_05 16:52

I mean, I want to add something to that, but I will keep this a work-friendly podcast in the second. Whatever. It's like if you were going to if you're straight out of desert island, what would you bring? Like, I feel like Benadryl is a strong choice for many reasons. Um yeah, so for me, like, do you is it that you feel proud or just satisfied when you're productive?

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Oh, that's a good question. I just like having a reward at the end. So, like I was telling my mother, you know, I've been editing these videos for a course that I've built. And editing to me is a lot like a puzzle in terms of the process where you're putting the pieces together. But at the end, for me, and this is no shade to people who love puzzles, but to me, that's a waste of time because once the puzzle is together, I mean, there are people who frame puzzles.

SPEAKER_05 17:55

She's making a very judgmental face right now to people just listening.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

But I mean, for the most part, oftentimes you do a puzzle and then you just break it up and put it back in the box.

SPEAKER_05 18:08

You don't know It's about the journey, not the destination.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Yeah, I like how with like the editing project, the you know, the destination stays with you. Whereas with the puzzle, you know, you get in this kind of like, okay, what am I supposed to do with this?

SPEAKER_05 18:26

You take a picture and you post on social media and then you move on to the next puzzle.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Social media, which I don't use to make to my imaginary. Oh, I post it to LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_05 18:37

Dude, I might do a LinkedIn post about puzzles because I miss doing puzzles. Um I love a jigsaw puzzle.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Do some editing. Do some editing. I mean, like honestly, I'm not editing is not my favorite thing in the world, but given a choice between an doing editing for money or a jigsaw puzzle for kicks, I would 100% say, okay, I'll edit.

SPEAKER_05 19:07

Well, yeah, but if you were taking money out of it, would you rather edit or do a jigsaw puzzle?

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Wait, if I were what?

SPEAKER_05 19:13

If you took money out of it, would you rather edit or do jigsaw puzzle?

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Oh, edit just because I just don't see the point. Like, I just don't understand the point.

SPEAKER_05 19:26

Editing to me, it's it's not as easy as I feel it should be, so I get annoyed really quickly. And that is why we have an editor. Well, yeah, but when you learn new ways, then I yes, and then I learned them, and that was actually a really fun process. And then I learned as much as I was interested in learning, and I knew that it was gonna take so long to become efficient at it that it wasn't the right use of my time.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

No, that I mean, I think that that's fair. I think that that is fair. With me, it's a cost-saving uh mechanism in terms of what the core course is the course that I'm doing.

SPEAKER_05 20:04

Um and I'm not creating a course, so we are so hard in like different boats. Like I can definitely see it paying off as like a financial investment of your time in a very different way. I'm also just very visual, so putting together a puzzle and I'm very picky. I'm very picky about what jigsaws I do. So like putting together something with pretty little pieces that I get to put into a pretty big picture is very fun.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

So, like, are you one of those small puzzle piece people?

SPEAKER_05 20:32

No, I usually do a thousand pieces.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Okay, what are the what's the difference between like a thousand and like and how d how many pieces do they usually come with?

SPEAKER_05 20:44

I mean, for younger people, they have like 300 piece, 100, 100, 150. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

I wouldn't want any more than 300.

SPEAKER_05 20:52

Yeah, my mom only does up to 500. The curveball is you don't have I don't have like enough surface space. Or I now actually I'm in a more surface space available situation, but you usually do want card tables. So once you get to a thousand, you're pushing your left on size of like surface area. So that's that's more my limitation. I do have a couple 2,000 piece ones that I haven't done yet. Um and then I consider a 500-piece of palette cleanser.

unknown 21:19

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_05 21:21

I hoard three things, Cynthia. I've told you this, and one of them is jigsaw puzzles. Even with how many I've given away and how many I left in Oakland, I look at what I have and I'm like cool.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

I mean, like, I think the only way that I would find gratification in doing a jigsaw puzzle is if it was a mystery jigsaw puzzle. So I didn't know what the picture was. And it had something to do with my life. So it can't just be a meadow. And then I'm like, oh, this is a meadow.

SPEAKER_05 22:00

I also would not do a meadow, but for very different reasons. So skies are hard.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

So I will do the skies.

SPEAKER_05 22:08

All right. I mean, we'll move on from jigsaw puzzles. Like to me, I feel productive after I've done a jigsaw puzzle.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 22:15

And I like that I was able to focus in on something that gave my brain relief from other things, kind of hum a song, like watch a 90s movie. Like those are all enjoyable things for me. So for me, it feels except for when it doesn't, it feels very like both productive and restful, which is a unique combo. So that's that's why I like it.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Let me just end on this. I would rather do a jigsaw puzzle than go to one of your favorite places on earth.

SPEAKER_05 22:44

Then give a certain corporation any of your money.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

That is correct.

SPEAKER_05 22:48

Then I will not show you the themes to any of my jigsaw puzzles. I will say I think you feel towards productivity how I feel towards efficiency.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 23:03

I love efficiency, and actually I'm kind of thinking like maybe this is why I don't like think of productivity in the same way, is because inefficient productivity is torture for me.

SPEAKER_03 23:18

Torture.

SPEAKER_05 23:19

And that's why it's like, oh, I had fun learning this thing. So yeah, so as far as editing goes, like I learned the skills that were really interesting to learn. I knew like more practice would make me quicker, but I just was so inefficient at it. I didn't know like the tricks of the trade yet. And because I wasn't going into a career in editing, it was just like all I'm doing is being inefficient, and I can't handle that.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Right, right, right. Now that makes sense.

SPEAKER_05 23:43

I can't handle that. So that's where it's like technically I was being productive, but I cannot handle inefficiency.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Yeah. And when as you when you the more you edit, the more shortcuts you find.

SPEAKER_05 23:54

Exactly. And I knew that was true, but I didn't care enough.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Uh-huh. Okay, that's fair. That's fair.

SPEAKER_05 24:00

Also, if I didn't know someone who I know would do a job, good job and I trusted, like readily available, maybe I would have tried hard like longer.

SPEAKER_03 24:09

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_05 24:10

I had an easy off ramp.

SPEAKER_03 24:12

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

unknown 24:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:14

So I'll admit that. Yeah, I just I love efficiency, probably because it gives me time to not be productive, or it gives me time to be hyper-productive one day and then the next day, like go to the beach.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

See, I really like if I mean I I'm like you, and I think that you're stronger on efficiency, but I do appreciate efficiency. I like efficiency, especially when it comes to walking in terms of like trying to find the shortest route.

SPEAKER_05 24:45

So yes, I do like that. And and then I don't trust a certain map app and end up going an inefficient way, and I'm like, this is why they told you, Jesse. How could you question that? Um, yes, I I agree with that. I always that's when I wish I was a bird and I could just do the what is it, the crow's view as the crow flies. That's it. Yeah, no, I but for me, like I'll be in public places and I'll watch processes and I'll watch them be super inefficient. It'll really stress me out. They were talking about a different sign-up process for programs where I'm working part-time, and I was like, You did an excellent job of overcomplicating this and making it less efficient. Well done, you. You know what I said to my my new supervisor, and I cannot, even I'm horrified I said this.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

What did you say?

SPEAKER_05 25:39

They were like, they were like, um, you know, I don't want you to get stressed out, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I literally said, I'm not paid enough to get stressed out. I know. And thank God they laughed and was like, good. I'm actually glad to hear it. That works out fine. Because like they know my background. And so I'm just like, I'm not getting stressed out for minimum wage. I'm not. I know it's horrifying. Maybe we should edit that out so someone still employs me in the future. But I'm not paying enough to get stressed out.

SPEAKER_03 26:14

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_05 26:16

And she's like, let me know if there's anything you think could work better. I was like, everything could work better. And I don't think I didn't say this to her, I was like, I don't think I'm gonna flag very many things that could work better because I just don't think that's the environment that this place is. I don't think they're actually that interested in efficiency. Wow. They don't like change at all. You know, and that's you know, that's fine. I've worked for other employers where that was even more true, frankly. But like, you know, when there's lots of things involved, whether it's compliance or people or whatever, change is hard. That's why I love doing change management. Um, but yeah, I was lit, I literally was just like, I'm not, I'm really not worried about it. It would be hard for you to make me worry about anything that's on my job responsibilities. They are all very straightforward. They're things I feel comfortable doing. Though I did get to clean up um a hazmat amount of blood the other day with no training.

unknown 27:17

What happened?

SPEAKER_05 27:19

I mean, fast forward 30 seconds if you don't like blood people. Um, someone slipped and hit themselves on something. Oh gosh. Okay. They were totally fine.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

They worked a hundred percent except for the fact that all of the blood in their body was on the floor.

SPEAKER_05 27:35

The face bleeds. The face is a it's it's a bleeder. It's not like cutting your like you know, calf or your arm. Like, and so I will spare you the details, but it was a situation, and okay, I have to tell you the one thing. Um, their partner, their like romantic partner, um, got blood sprayed all over them. She was so calm and so good and supportive that I was literally like, you need to. I it was so hard for me not to be like, you need to propose because this person will stay with you through thick and thin. It was next level. It was next level. So like I don't like love that part of my job, but I'd rather do that than other things that could be part of my job at that particular location. Anyway, but I I you know what my least favorite part of it? How long I had to wait for the right cleaner to be brought to me because I was like, how can it be so unlike it was just it took me 45 minutes to get cleaner that I needed, and that is very inefficient, and I was very upset about how like how much blood would you say was it like a half a cup of blood? It was more than that.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Oh my okay.

SPEAKER_05 28:56

It was very easy to make the call that we were shutting down that part of the court. Sorry everyone, it was more than 30 seconds.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Oh my gosh. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:09

But you know, I mean, like I said, like he was totally fine. Like totally awake and like good spirits, just embarrassed more than anything. It's it's there's just certain places on your face. On your face. I just had first aid training too, so I was like, I got this. I'm good to go.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Do you know CPR?

SPEAKER_05 29:33

I do know CPR.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

So would you be able to give CPR when he was bleeding out like that?

SPEAKER_05 29:39

Um, I could have. It would not be the appropriate response to just blood at all. As his he was completely conscious.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

No, if he needed it. If he needed it with the blood giving the red, would it be too gross for you?

SPEAKER_05 29:53

For me, no. I totally understand it would be for a lot of people, but like one of my coworkers had to like stay in the office because I they were like gonna pass out. Um, but oh my gosh. Yeah, but my um for me, because of all my surgeries and stuff, like blood does not really gross me.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

You were awake during your surgeries?

SPEAKER_05 30:12

I was technically awake from one of them, but I also had to get like I had to give myself blood. They was a blood there's a blood shortage where I lived as a kid, and so they couldn't really rely on there being a donor blood available. So I can't I can't they took my blood and put it in the freezer in case the surgery involved more bleeding, and they had to put and then afterwards they just put it back in me. So they they put it back in you? Why waste some blood? I gotta tell you, putting it back in hurts a lot more than taking it out. It stings. Why didn't they just why didn't you just donate it? I probably needed it after that. It was an eight-hour surgery. So I did probably need it to like some degree.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

What's your blood type?

SPEAKER_05 30:59

I don't remember. It's my dad's. I think it's a I'm not a universal donor. I know that.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Yeah. I got a special test, so I wouldn't know mine, and it's in the phone. A positive for me.

SPEAKER_05 31:13

I might be a positive. I got I actually really do need to know that, but I really don't. I should know it for my husband too, but anyway, productivity. I was very productive, even though the inefficiency of it was very annoying. Um but yeah, I mean, that's a great example of how I handle big things better than small things, too, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So let me ask you this. What area of your life do you feel the most productive?

SPEAKER_05 31:46

I'm having trouble feeling productive right now because when you're doing multiple things in once in particular, you're like you're just like barely tapping into the potential of what you could be doing. And that's kind of messing with my head a little bit because it's like, okay, I'm doing 10% of the things for five things. Nothing moves along very quickly when you do that. It can also be a lot less effective to do that because things compound over time in like positive ways for productivity. Um, but I am having a hard time trimming things off because some of the things I've already trimmed off. I'm really sad I'm not doing. So, like right now, I'm definitely, uh especially because I was gone last week, kind of in like a rethink about how to prioritize because we're past like the big travel booking season of the year. So naturally it like makes sense like to do more soft marketing or things like that, reach out to people versus like promote like, hey, summer cruises are booking fast. If you haven't booked us, if you're listening to this and you haven't booked your summer trip, like y'all gotta call someone, and that someone should be me.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

All right.

SPEAKER_05 32:58

Um, because your options are much less now. Yes. Um, so yeah, so that's where like I like being, I I just like honestly, it it it matters. I just love a checklist. You know, one of the things I like about that part of my job is setting up furniture, it is physical, tangible, and I see literally see the like the impact of what I just did.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Yeah, that that makes sense to me. That totally like I I I wouldn't want to have to do it, but I that makes sense in terms of the gratification feeling afterwards.

SPEAKER_05 33:29

If I knew someone in a trade who would be willing to train me part-time because of like my physical stuff, I could only do part-time. I cannot tell you how quickly I would jump at that opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Tell me more.

SPEAKER_05 33:42

Like if I knew someone who was a carpenter, electrician, a plumber. Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_01 33:46

Yeah. Yes. Yes. I love home repairs. I don't mess with electricity and I don't mess with plumbing.

SPEAKER_05 33:54

I don't mess with electricity. I'd like to be less afraid of electricity. Um, plumbing is very physically intense in a lot of cases. I could do plumbing. I definitely feel like I could do plumbing. Um, but when you're apprentice, you have to do all the worst parts of the work. And physically, I'm like, I can't dig holes every day.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

Yeah, yeah. And that's real.

SPEAKER_05 34:16

I can do the smelly parts every day, but I can't dig holes every day.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

unknown 34:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:22

Anyway, but because I like it, it's like this, it's like productivity plus, as opposed to like, I wrote that communications plan and sent it into the ether. Will they look at it? Will they not? We'll find out. But I get to check maybe that's why I like checklists so much, is because in a world where so much of what you produce in corporations is never used, at least you get the dopamine of a check mark.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

Yeah, a check mark and accomplishment 100%.

SPEAKER_04 34:50

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

100%. It is tough. Do you feel as do you reward yourself after something you've been productive with something? Um not like I used to.

SPEAKER_05 35:08

I think it used to be a good option for me. I for me, like basically if something I try to just group miserable things together more so than because that's like it's just more efficient for me to lose an entire half day being on the phone with various people than it is to try to work that into like between meetings, and then you don't get to finish the phone call and things like that. So like that is more a priority than like, oh, you made all these phone calls. Now you get to go to your favorite restaurant or something like that. I will say I do have to like I've tried micro rewarding, which lasts a comically short period of time. So it's like, oh, if you write this paragraph, you get an MM.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

Okay, that is that lasts like two paragraphs. Micro and MM.

SPEAKER_05 35:57

Or like a couple MMs, not a fifth full of MMs.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Two MMs if you write two paragraphs.

SPEAKER_05 36:04

Well, that's that thing, like that's a that's actually like a legit strategy, though. Like that's a thing some people can do. If it's something they really don't want to do, it's like I did do that not that long ago. Okay, after you finish this first call, you can go get you know, this just a very a pretty small thing or whatever. Like you can take a break and get yourself a new cup of tea, or you can take a break and have a kick a cookie or whatever. Um yeah. So I did that that helps, but it's not what's motivating me to do the thing, so that's why I stopped doing it.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

Uh-huh. Yeah, I get I get a cookie. The tea can be good for you, so I'm not sure how much, but an M, that's I'd be like, I can do without an M.

SPEAKER_05 36:46

So when you're if you knit or crochet, one thing people do to keep track of their rows is if they have to do like five rows of the same stitch, is they'll put out like five pieces of candy, and after every row they eat a candy so they know when they're out of candy, they move on to the next like next type of stitch.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

That's really, really clever. That makes you want to take up knitting.

SPEAKER_05 37:10

It makes you want to finish a like a chunk.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:12

And then you feel satisfied because look at this chunk.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Uh uh. Yeah, and you got to enjoy your candies.

SPEAKER_05 37:19

Do I though? I've been I've been great about sugar since I got back from my trip because you know what the hotel had? Unlimited dilly bars.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Dilly bars?

SPEAKER_05 37:29

Like like uh, I don't know, someone my co it's a regional term, like Dairy Queen, that's what they call them. Like vanilla ice cream and chocolate coating.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

Oh, yes. So they had those at the hotel, and you can have as much as you want, like on a cruise.

SPEAKER_05 37:42

Where I was. Yes, like on a cruise.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

Nice.

SPEAKER_05 37:45

And I need to not eat ice cream for like a month just because my body got to the point of like, why we don't we don't want this? Like, this isn't a thing we want in our lives right now.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

Right, yeah, yeah. I recently drastically slashed my sugar intake. Uh and that's just because I just I've got to do better in terms of eating.

SPEAKER_05 38:08

So does not eating as much sugar make you feel productive?

SPEAKER_01 38:13

No. It does it makes me feel more responsible.

SPEAKER_05 38:17

Makes me feel like an accomplishment.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

It's an accomplishment. I mean, like with me, my focus over, I would say, the last two weeks is kind of like aging and like just thinking about, and this kind of relates to productivity in terms of the return, you're not going, you're not gonna have the instant gratification. But I'm getting to the point where it's slower for me, it's harder for me to move, my legs hurt more. And part of this is tied to you know, being on this project. I'm so focused on productivity around this course that I'm totally neglecting everything else. And I kind of feel as though I need to be more balanced with my productivity. So it doesn't take more time not to eat sugar. So that's been kind of like one of the things that I'm focused on. And then once I've got closure, which will be today or tomorrow, in terms of everything up and running with the course, then I'll be able to, you know, redirect some of my time at least into being more responsible in terms of going on walks and stuff.

SPEAKER_05 39:30

Yeah, I am I'm definitely struggling to fill in the different kinds of like uh taking care of things I need to take care of, like including my body. Um why would you say that word?

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Well, I'm productivity in 15 days.

SPEAKER_05 39:49

The way I don't know, did I mention this last time the record we recorded? Like the way I become a demon when I'm collecting documentation for taxes and how it brings out the most angry part of me, even though I believe in taxes existing, is truly an unfortunate reality for my husband. Like, just leave me alone in the room to sort through and get the things because this was the most complicated tax year I've ever had in my whole life, including when I owned a business.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

Do you do your own taxes, or does somebody else do them?

SPEAKER_05 40:25

This is the first year since we got married. My husband agreed to have someone else do them because we have such an unusual cluster of things, and we cannot afford to miss a single deduction. And there was someone, um, someone I know uses who was like very affordable, just kind of like does it independent, doesn't take on like too many clients. They but like they were willing to because they like I knew someone who used them, you know. So it wasn't like you know, it wasn't like $250 to go do or anything like that. Um so and it wasn't like HR block where they're trying to get people as many people in as possible. So anyway, right, right. We did this year. I'm sure we won't, we'll go back to not doing it next year. Fun fact AARP does at many libraries, senior centers, etc., offer free tax um help and advice. And you do not have to be a senior to use the service.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Nice, nice. You do not have to be a senior to be a member of AARP.

SPEAKER_05 41:27

Nope. When I first worked at a senior center, I actually used the service um when I owned my business because I was so nervous about it. Um but one thing I would ask people is like if you're not a senior, like make sure you go at the beginning of their options because don't go on April 14th when I was going. Well, I mean the seniors are going like the whole time, and then there's this additional like panic wave. So it's like you're good, you're you're gonna be making sure the people the service was technically intended for are gonna have more access to it if you're going in like late February instead of this week. Uh or well, whenever this airs, it'll be past tax season. But yes, that's my one like favor. But um, we've had a couple, you know, I've seen people coming in and and using it who are under 50.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

Yeah, I just this morning reached out to my accountant asking her when she needed the stuff by. So I need to get on it because I've got I I need to write everything off that I can. I'm like you, I cannot miss a deduction.

SPEAKER_05 42:29

I will say, my husband, um, so I was really grateful. Like he he understood why, you know, I'm extra anxious. It just makes sense this year. Um I am fearful of what we will owe on a level that I have never appeared before. So that should be pretty interesting. And we'll go from there. And in addition to like some of the surprise bills I mentioned before we started recording, I have, you know, and some things that have kind of fallen through lately. I have let people I love close to me know that if the last couple things don't go good, don't go well, if things kind of go back, I'm just gonna like get in a car and like go away for June, and then I'll be back. Don't know to where, don't know with what agenda. I'm just gonna like go figure out life in some ways, and then I'll come back.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

Yeah, and come back and regroup.

SPEAKER_04 43:21

Come back, you know.

SPEAKER_05 43:22

I'll miss my husband, I'll come back to my husband and do my thing because I will not be able to figure things out within the structure that I'm currently surrounded.

SPEAKER_03 43:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:33

I'm just gonna go like camp and stare at the stars and be like.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

But you know what? I I I I I think that can be good. I do too. I do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

And you know, I don't say nice things about camping. But no, I think for that purpose, I think that's a very productive approach.

SPEAKER_05 43:52

I am shocked to hear you say that.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Mm-hmm. And now would I do that? I I would probab if I knew. Needed to get away, you know what I would do? I would go to my parents' house. That's what you do do.

SPEAKER_05 44:05

That's not even a hypothetical statement. That is a pattern you have.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

But it would be different from my house. I just would need plumbing.

SPEAKER_05 44:16

I really, really want plumbing and no cell reception.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

No cell reception. I want both.

SPEAKER_05 44:25

I don't want reception. Don't don't nobody bring me no bad news. That's the song I'll be singing. I didn't realize it was a thing that not everybody knew until much later in life. And my mom used to sing that song a lot. A lot. And then when I was older and I rewatched The Whiz, I was like, oh. I thought she just made up that song. She just like made up songs sometimes. Yeah, no. Um fun fact, I saw uh I don't remember his last name. DeAndre, um the guy who was the whiz. Do you know you don't know his name, do you?

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Richard Pryor in the movie.

SPEAKER_05 45:13

Oh no, the the Broadway original person.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Oh, I don't know who the broad who the actor was.

SPEAKER_05 45:19

Well, I got to see him on Broadway in something else.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

Oh, where did you see him?

SPEAKER_05 45:23

I don't remember it. I don't remember his name. I saw him in Hades Town.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Oh, okay, cool. Now I did see the whiz, but I was like a child on Broadway. And the only thing I remember about it was the tornado scene. Because they had ribbons they were spinning around to make the tornado.

SPEAKER_05 45:42

I like it. Um yeah, they definitely Andre de Shields. Not DeAndre, Andre de Shields. Andre Andre de Shields. Anyway, he's very good. He's very exciting. Um so yes, I think that is. I did tell my coworker who's been stressed out that next time I see her stressed out, I'm just gonna start singing a song. Ala, don't be no bad things. Um, so this is all true. Productivity, that's how you escape. I, you know, because even in those moments where I'm like, I need I need to connect with nature more right now, I'm not getting enough in. And because I've got a lot to be anxious about right now, it becomes more important, but then it affects productivity, and then I'm like, well, what's more important? I don't know, and then I'm not productive, and then blah blah blah blah blah blah. And this is how we end up with running away nowhere in June.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Interesting.

SPEAKER_05 46:41

I need to be doing more staring out a window right now.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

You know, it's so it's you say that, and whenever I finish like a huge task, something that's very stressful, I often get depressed. And my thought is, well, what am I supposed to do now?

SPEAKER_05 47:01

Well, you know, a lot of people who focus my generation who really focused on climbing the corporate ladder had kind of like a crisis once they got, you know, senior, really like the seniors they were aiming for, because then they didn't have a goal.

SPEAKER_03 47:13

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 47:15

And without that, it just like they would get lost.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

Yeah, yeah. Where they get towards something.

SPEAKER_05 47:21

Yeah, I totally get that. Whereas now people are like, what's your goal? And I'm like, okay, well, I forced myself to have a couple, but they're not, they're just not the same as when I was in my early 20s, early 20s. Yeah, it's like I want to be vice president of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and make good money and blah blah blah. I was like, I would like to be healthy. And I would like to not be worried about money.

SPEAKER_01 47:43

I mean, and it's just so interesting because these are basic things, and especially, you know, the healthy part, a lot of that depends on access to health care. A lot of it depends on kind of you know personal circumstances. But the whole access to money piece is just fascinating in terms of you know, growing up and doing everything, quote unquote, right. Um, that is just like this is this is a a new environment that I never thought that I would see.

SPEAKER_05 48:25

I will admit that I just heard how much it's gonna cost me for like this like temporary treatment thing that I'm doing over the phone before we got on this call, and I literally laughed out loud. And the person was like, Is that less than you thought? More than you thought. I was like, I just hadn't done the math. I knew how much each session would cost, but I like knew it would be more than I wanted total, so I just didn't do the math. They were like, Okay, well, and we won't go off into healthcare too much, but I'm like, that's just kind of where I am as far as just like I did everything right. And you're getting nervous laughter on the other end of a phone, making a stranger very uncomfortable because here we are. But my aspirations, like, that's why I'm gonna do it. You know, zero interest credit card, whatever it takes, like that's why I'm gonna do it because my health is like finely important to me. I will not, my my arm and leg, especially my arm though, are so messed up from that retail job that I took. I will not go back to it. And that is, and I was planning on doing so. If I needed to, and the holidays coming up, I will not go back to it. I can physically like no rather get pasta, rather just have pasta every day. Which is not good for your health, but that's a different thing.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

Throw some vegetables on there. Look, go to Audi and throw some vegetables on there.

SPEAKER_05 49:52

Yeah, I gotta tell you, I think I might be trying to replace productivity with accomplishment. Because I productivity just makes me feel like I'm part of a machine. Whereas like I felt very accomplished when I went to a doctor's appointment this week because I had already started doing or like next in line to do all of the things that they checked in on whether I was doing. And I was like, holy, holy, like, holy crap, that's not usually how these combos go. I just felt very like proud of myself. And I like I need more of that and less, less dependence on checklists.

SPEAKER_00 50:29

Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 50:30

Now that's like, have I fixed what dinner should be as far as like inflammation goes? No. But did we literally just yesterday buy the biggest bag of frozen vegetables you've ever seen? Yes. We're getting there.

SPEAKER_03 50:42

We're getting there.

SPEAKER_05 50:43

So that I think there's I think there's a diversification of productivity and things that go with it that could be healthy. Is it productive to do your exercise? Yes, but it's also just important.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

Yeah. Yeah. It's important to make you feel better, to control your weight, to help prevent problems.

SPEAKER_05 51:07

It's important to be able to run the marathon and not just the sprint. So someone who loves productivity like you can think of it that way. Yeah. You want the productivity of a marathon, not just a sprint.

SPEAKER_01 51:19

Not just the sprint. But I do like what you said about the accomplishment piece.

SPEAKER_05 51:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:26

It wasn't on a checklist, it was an accomplishment I made. I prioritized in ways that like felt very validated.

SPEAKER_03 51:33

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05 51:36

Not usually how I leave a doctor's appointment related to blood pressure. Not usually how that goes. But yeah. As part of wrapping up, Cynthia, what would it look like to measure life in something other than output?

SPEAKER_01 51:56

Measure life? I mean, you know, uh, I you know, I I would say, you know, the impact that you have on society, the legacy that you leave, um, I think are both important. Um, output, when I think about outputs, I'm thinking about, well, what do you have to show for it in terms of all the work? When you think about um what else to show besides output, I would say the impact of the output. And then that's what becomes your legacy.

SPEAKER_05 52:36

And I'll allow that answer because I don't think that impact requires output. I think like your actual just like presence can have impact and how you're present, but the your presence is an output.

SPEAKER_01 52:52

Being there, showing up. It's just not as hard to do. It doesn't mean it's not important.

SPEAKER_05 53:01

Sometimes it's not as hard to do. So for me for you, you're saying like you would measure it by these other things, but everything's tied to output.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 53:14

I'm gonna think about that.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

Yeah, but uh yeah, and the thing is that you can choose different outputs. Every output that you have, you don't need to have you know three months of grueling work like this class that I did behind you in order um to you know have a strong output. You can you can you can show up, you can create in different ways. And then it's you know looking at the impact of that, which I think is what's important.

SPEAKER_05 53:48

I mean, I guess like one of the things that differentiates people is the diversity of outputs they can create.

SPEAKER_01 53:55

Yeah, yeah. I mean, an output could be a conversation that you have with somebody, and the advice that or the what the knowledge that somebody takes away with it, and then what they do with that becomes the impact.

SPEAKER_05 54:10

I will hesitantly accept this answer. I think of output output a little bit more tangibly, but I'm not saying that that I am right in that thought. Um, I think like of output is things that can be passed along um or have a lasting impact, maybe. I'll think about that more actually.

SPEAKER_01 54:31

Well, and I would say having the lasting impact, but I mean tangible. You mean something to show, like what does that even mean, especially in this age?

SPEAKER_05 54:43

Something that you can share with someone in some way.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

So, like a conversation, a listening ear, like all of those things.

SPEAKER_05 54:50

Yeah, I I mean I do think that's true. I think like this is where I have to be careful, though, that I'm not prioritizing outputs that serve others over myself. While I would always want to be serving others, like that will always be part of me. Um that's where like you can get drained pretty quickly, though. So every time there's some social media post that was like, don't let them drain you, basically. I'm like, yeah, I'm not being drained right now. Keep that going, keep that going. Um, because I'm not being drained right now. It's great.

SPEAKER_03 55:24

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05 55:25

It's really great. All right. Productivity. Thumbs up for Cynthia, thumbs tired from Jesse.

SPEAKER_01 55:34

And I I I I want to push back on you just a little bit. I think that society tells us what productivity should be. Yes. And I see you as being productive in many ways that you might not necessarily see yourself being productive.

SPEAKER_05 55:54

I think I am a very productive person. And I think you have a, in a very healthy way, broad definition of what uh output is. And therefore, even though we're only talking about a certain type of productivity in our conversations right now because of what you're working on, I suspect in other contexts you might have a little bit, a little bit wider of examples or more diverse examples. That's my I'm not like I'm sure you would, but I'm like, I suspect there would be like something else there just because you are you are in sprint modes. You are getting to the book, you are getting the class done. And so I think that bring like really brings into focus what productivity is for you right now. Whereas right now, like productivity is something that gets me to sustainability, and that's just spaghetti at a wall right now.

SPEAKER_03 56:45

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_05 56:46

So it's it's different. Whereas like when you're taking a lot of swings, inevitably there's gonna be misses, and then at a certain point it's like, well, if productivity requires a hit, then you've just messed up your whole equation.

SPEAKER_00 56:59

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_05 57:01

Right. Um that's why I always try to remember the um I don't know, one of those rich guys uh talking about how like they've had far more failures than successes.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

Mm-hmm. I'm like, okay, well, yeah, and that and that's the thing. That's that's real. It's very it's you know, it's just so interesting because successes can be so visible, but what's not so visible is all the years of hard work that came before those successes.

SPEAKER_05 57:35

I mean, I'd also say the opposite though.

SPEAKER_01 57:38

What's that?

SPEAKER_05 57:39

Sometimes people's failures are what people really latch on to.

SPEAKER_01 57:45

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:45

Okay, they forget all the successes.

SPEAKER_01 57:48

100 110%. I agree. 110%.

SPEAKER_05 57:53

Yeah. So we just don't know what the actual equation is. We just see the things that like people have highlighted for us.

SPEAKER_01 57:59

Right, right. And I mean, my thing is you just gotta keep going. My favorite expression in their saying is a winner is just a loser who tried one more time.

SPEAKER_04 58:10

I know you say that to me, and I'm always like, fine. Fine. Um, I might be something else, but I think that's okay.

SPEAKER_05 58:20

All right, well, this pseudo, not loser, not winner, this trier is gonna keep productive on her end, and I know that you will on your end, Cynthia.

SPEAKER_00 58:31

Yes, thank you, Jesse.

SPEAKER_05 58:33

Thank you, everyone, for joining us today. If you have any comments, questions, suggestions, uh especially suggestions for topics that you would want either newly visited or revisited, please email us at hello at meridian by Jessie. Um, that's Jesse with an IE at the end.com. And that's the travel site, so you can also reach out about book and travel.

SPEAKER_01 58:56

Book your trip.

SPEAKER_05 58:58

How productive of me to mention that.

SPEAKER_01 58:59

There you go.

SPEAKER_05 59:01

Bye everyone.

SPEAKER_01 59:02

Bye bye.