Who Are You Without the Applause?

In this episode, we unpack the subtle ways validation shapes our decisions, relationships, and sense of self. We explore what it means to build real self-trust and how life shifts when you stop waiting for permission to be who you already are.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Hello everyone and welcome to the Reboot Diaries. I'm Jessie.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

I'm Cynthia.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

And today we're going to be talking about validation. You know, not my healthiest relationship. Me and validation, I like it, not gonna lie. And I think like having, you know, the last couple years with everything up in the air, like validation felt a little grounding. How do you do you? I mean, you seem like someone who doesn't need it.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Well, it depends on what it's for. Um, you know, feedback is a form of validation, and sometimes feedback isn't what you need it to be in terms of moving forward or even feeling good about yourself. But you know, it can really save you in the long run.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

I mean, you are big on feedback. You like coming up with like you like putting out like the best output. So yeah, we talk, I mean, we talked about that in previous episodes, Cynthia. Feedback is data.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Feedback is data.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

It is indeed. I mean, so how do you know when you're like seeking healthy feedback versus just external validation? And by external validation, it's more just like needing someone to tell you good job in order for you to feel good job.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

You know, I think that for me it depends on the circumstance. When it comes to developing a product, I really need input to make things better. But once something is final, that's when I kind of need the validation. Like it's not helpful to know of something that I should have done right when something is finished and out the door. So I would say that it's you know, validation when we're dealing with the final product.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Love that distinction.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Yes. What about you? What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 2:24

I mean, I say like yes, and I think for me, a lot of my validation comes from uh the first thing I think of when I think of like the idea of validation is definitely school in grades and needing that validation has definitely been a thing through high school and then kind of stopped being as much of a thing. Like, I don't know, my brain just had other priorities in college. Um, but I think I've told you, and I think I've said on the podcast, like I never would have called myself smart until I was in grad school because I was so intimidated by it and I was like nauseous going into my MBA program, and then I like got through the first semester and got A's, and I was like, I might be smart. I might be smart, but like part of it was because I did well in the classes, like I had that validation, right? So I mean, I've I've said before I'm kind of interesting in that, like I you know, struggle with self-esteem, but extremely confident of my opinions. So it is an interesting thing, but excuse me.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

So it that it's interesting that you say that with the grades, because I've always looked at getting good grades as like uh a game or a puzzle, something to be figured out. Yeah. So um, you know, learning is one thing and learning is important, but um she rolls her eyes even though she is a lifelong learner. No, but it's it's so it's it's almost like the thrill of the hunt in terms of the grades.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

I mean, that was for me in college, it definitely felt more like undergrad. It felt like more of a puzzle because it's like, how do I do the bare minimum and still get good grades?

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. But it's it's interesting because in terms of validation, I think that we're both kind of like this, and we're both lifelong learners. Like, I honestly did not realize, and I'm sure that I knew at some point, but it's just not something that you mention all the time in terms of your education background. So, like, I don't know, I think I knew, or maybe I think at one point I did know that you had an MBA. Um, but it's not something that you talk about. So when we revisited it recently, I was really surprised. And I think that one of the reasons is it's just you don't talk about it that much. So it's not like you know, some people will really lean into their education background for validation, and that's just not something that I've really seen you do. That's not something that I've done until recently, in terms of like with this book. I was like, all right, I gotta, you know, build my credibility. What can I do? And so that's why, you know, you see PhD on different, but I've never leaned into that until I needed it. It's almost like it was just a tool in my toolkit to pull out on special occasions.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Yeah, and you're not the only PhD I've heard say that.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

But I think like for education, like the validation was so for me around me how I felt about it. I think one of the biases that upsets me the most is people thinking, like, oh, you have a good education, you're smart. It's like, okay, may or may not be smart, but really I like I had the opportunity to take out the loans. I had the opportunity to be supported, like things like that. So, you know, like look, I went to really good undergrad school and I met some very smart people. And I met some people where I was like, wow. You know, like it's a range no matter what. Like you could be really good at testing and have no common sense. But like it's it is what it is. But for me, I think like grades are one of two areas where validation I'm feeling a little bit better now, but that's one of the reasons I'm wondering if I'm like drawn to go back to school right now, is it was so helpful for my self-esteem when right after I got laid off to enter an education program to be like, look, you're not you like, you can do things, you can learn things. Like, this is actually also very interesting and gives you life. So it was definitely like I might have been a little too attached to my grades in that program because of kind of what I had just gone through. But my other one though is I care too much what my manager thinks. Say more. I've talked about this a lot in therapy in my 20s. Um I don't know if it's because they control my salary, but I want my manager to think I'm really, really good. I don't know if I care that much about my peers thinking I'm good. I want my manager to think I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Read into that as you'd like.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Well, I mean, managers make decisions. They, you know, determine schedules and pay and assignments. And so I mean, I think that, you know, put it like this. I don't know anybody who would say I don't care what my manager thinks. Um, so that I I get that.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

I think like, yes, but also like it upsets me if I feel like my manager thinks I don't do my job well. And that's where it like goes into a different thing.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

So is why is that? Because I'm wondering if it's really more so a thing of feeling misunderstood.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

I mean, that's one of my biggest issues. So we have an upcoming, I think that's an upcoming topic we're probably gonna do. No, but no, after after decades of therapy, I actually don't know exactly what it is. It's gotta be something about authority. I don't like authority. I don't like it.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

See, I I that's interesting. I I honestly don't mind authority at all. I actually I'm no, I'm gonna take it a little bit further. I like authority, but only if they know what they're doing. Like, I cannot stand it when people are in positions of power and authority, and they have absolutely, positively, no business being in that role. But if they're good, if they're tight, for me it's reassuring, it's comforting, it's empowering. Um I I I love it.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

When I work for someone, and this is something I discovered a few years ago, when I work with for someone who has good self-esteem, I thrive. Because it doesn't get weird when I am articulating like strong opinions. If I were for someone who maybe doesn't or is threatened easily or like whatever it is, I am miserable because I don't feel heard, you know, things like that. Like you don't have to agree with me. I just want you to like consider what I'm saying. Right. That's that's my big thing, right? Um, and if someone has like feels competent in their ability to do their job and is actually competent and can do their job, they're much more open to it. And so for me, it feels validating just to feel heard, even if like they have they go a different route. Like that's the main thing that I need.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

And that's a thing. I think that a lot of times folks don't recognize that harmony can still exist if you have different opinions.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Especially in the workplace, because it's like this is not like the scheme of the world right now. Like whether we use this font or this font does not matter. So, but I think that's more kind of a like recent. Like I used to work at a senior center, right? And like people come back from the trips, I'd send them on, they'd be like, Oh, there are all these issues, and I'd literally be like, Did you all come back alive?

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Then it's fine.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Then it's fine. So I try to think about that. But that's you know, that's kind of where I am right now. My best friend has told me many times to like work for myself. She thinks that's the right answer for me. But I don't know, it's interesting. I think I used to not hear what people thought at all. And then I kind of realized that like there is I want I don't want to make people feel negatively. And so I became very conscious of that and kind of tried to work with that because I know that like other people have different relationships with validation. And if I'm just like, oh, here's your final product, I'm gonna be very honest about it. Like, that's not helpful. Like, can you imagine, especially after reading and give you feedback on your draft? If I was like, I mean, it turned out okay. Like, how what a jerk would I be? Like, that would be awful.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

That would not that would not make me feel good.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

No, I don't think that to be extra clear. But anyway, I think when it comes to validation, you talked about when it affects you differently, but like, is there a certain kind of validation that's harder for you to let go of when it comes to like approval, praise, reassurance, something else?

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Um, you know, I think that one of the sense my sensitive subjects or spots is my mother, who I would say is still very much a helicopter mother later and you know, all these years later. She wants the absolute best for me. I mean, she wants the absolute best for me. And that means giving me feedback all the time. Uh so you know, I I and she is somebody who would do anything in the world for me. So I mean, that's kind of hard to manage in terms of you know appreciating your fiercest advocate and cheerleader while also not letting the ongoing feedback, you know, drive your bananas.

unknown 12:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Have you ever had someone who's like really supportive and like very validating? And like, has your response ever been like, I mean, I'll get it, but anyway, moving on. Like, like, have you been like, I don't know about that, and kind of moved on from it and then like not let it in?

SPEAKER_01 13:01

Um so here's the thing. I think a lot of times I might get feedback or validation on things that I'm just not in the moment that that just aren't really I shouldn't say that aren't important to me, but they're not recent. Like, you know, the whole education piece. You know, I went to I was in grad school literally 20 years ago. I mean, you know, it was like the Copa Cabana and Lola, who was a shirl showgirl, but that was 30 years ago. I mean, like, so I think situations like that, another thing is, you know, Jesse, you are such an inspiration. I am such an inspiration because, you know, the whole disability piece. And so that, you know, people mean well, but it's just like, I just feel like there's so much more that, you know, I just usually will just smile and be like, you know.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Yeah, sure do. Sure do. Yeah, I think when you get validation for something you don't validate, I mean, you don't appreciate in yourself or you don't value at a particularly high level, it's not that it feels bad, it just isn't the same thing as that like attachment to validation elsewhere.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Right. I mean, if it's something that I worked hard at and I am super proud of, oh, I just I love it. I mean, I'll give you an example. The Picker Institute, which developed the principles, uh, a set of the principles, which are in my book The Claire Kane Chronicles. The Claire Kane Chronicles available on Amazon. Um no, but uh when the Picker Institute read the early draft and gave great feedback and agreed to provide a blurb from for the back, I mean, like I'm still on that high. And that was, you know, a year ago almost, in terms of you know, getting that feedback. So yeah, I'm not gonna sit around, I'm not gonna try to pretend like validation does nothing for me. Because when it's something that I've really worked hard on, um it it is just so incredibly meaningful to me.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Does how many books you sold feed validation?

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Oh, it 100% does. And when sales are slow, it chips at my self-esteem. I mean, it it would I also know though that's also data, it's also feedback in terms of you need to do more in terms of marketing. I mean, one of the things is I know it's an excellent book. You know, I've had people like you and a billion other people give really important feedback to make it better. So I feel very good about it. Um, I need to uh change up my strategy in terms of more consistent sales. But uh, but yeah, book sales equals you know, ego.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

I think it's like your equivalent of social media likes. Because you avoid that whole mess, so you gotta have it somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

I do avoid social media, but I will say I was at a book launch yesterday for somebody, and I actually in the moment took a picture and posted it, which is something that I never do in real time. But I just figured I've got to make a change.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Interesting. Look at you growing, stretching.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

I that that I mean, like a basic social media post what is a stretch. And here's the thing for people who you know have only known social media, you know, Jesse, the two of us can pick up the phone and call folks. That's our superpower.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

I mean, that's your superpower.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Okay, but there, fair, but don't act like you're not old enough to be in a and live from in an era where I used to like be on the phone for hours. Yeah, that was, I mean, yeah, that was your life. That was your lifeline. But yeah, that I I could I could talk on the phone all day. You could.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

It's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

I think that's why I even called you today. You were like, why did she call? I did. I was just like, is everything okay?

SPEAKER_00 17:48

No, no. I um I think I'm just generally more overstimulated. I don't think I have anything actually against talking on the phone. I think like at this point in my life, I'm just overstimulated. So I'm like, oh, noise input, okay. Um do you think that like when you were younger, like when you were like in high school, did you feel differently about validation?

SPEAKER_01 18:13

I think that when I was in high school, I was just really trying to fit in. And I don't even mean fit in socially with the other students. I went to an all-girls high school and had a really great group of friends. It was I was trying to fit in into education. You know, I I'm not good at memorizing things, and so interesting. Yeah, I'm not good at all at minimizing. I'm very good at building things. Um, but in terms of memorization, mm-mm. So for me, it was very much a struggle in terms of the whole academic piece. And I just like the thought that like my mother was so surprised when I everybody was surprised when I got into graduate school. And I'm just like Me too.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Was like, what? Calm down.

unknown 19:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

So oh yeah, I mean, I think it does change over time, but I think for me in high school, it was very, very much less healthy, even in terms of like the academic part, because I was trying to like prove that I was like, and like it was the disability overcoming equation, right? Um, which is still complicated in in many ways, but it was still very, it was definitely different then. No, I think like I think it feels good when people like remind me of what I've accomplished. And I think I when I was younger, I didn't let that in. I hadn't accomplished as much because you're you know I graduated high school, which is an accomplishment, but like so expected of me that I didn't think anything of it, right? Um I took it for granted, to be honest. So, but yeah, so I like when I'm struggling, and my friend was like, I might have said this on the podcast either, where I was just like, I just feel like I like haven't done much. He's like, Didn't you like own an art gallery? That's a really big deal. Like, oh, that's a that's a really good point. Okay, and like when I make things with my hands, that's actually I think a kind of to your point in terms of like, don't give me feedback after it's done. When I make something, craft something, and I show people because I'm really proud of it, just tell me it looks great.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

That's all I want to hear. So I have one of my girlfriends is like one of my friends is like very cute about it, very good about it. And it does make me feel really good. So whenever I'm just like, I would like positive feedback on this thing that I made, I text her.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

And she's there for you.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

And she's there, it looks incredible, like things like that. I'm gonna get a new leg brace and it's gonna have like a design on it for the first time. And I was like, I need someone to make me less afraid of this very big change. So I texted her a picture.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Wait, I'm confused. Uh, what do you mean a big change?

SPEAKER_00 21:10

They're changing the whole, like I won't I won't change it too much, but they're changing the like mechanics of my leg brace for the first time in like 20 plus 20, like seven years. But now you can get like aesthetic designs, whereas historically it's always been like do what you can to match skin color, like make it, you know, make it look quote unquote natural. Um and now you can do designs and things like that. So I'm my tattoo artist for my thigh drew something to put these yellow roses to put on my brace. And so for the first time, it's like intentional attention on something that I covered for the vast majority of my life. So it's very like it's a big change. It's a big step. And I needed a little bit of validation that it looked cool.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

Okay. I mean, and I'm sure. It is phenomenal. I mean, when I said I was confused, I was confused in terms of you've already got so much art on you now.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

What's you know I'm gonna have more. But like with this, I'm like, it's like a three-year commitment. That's different than a tattoo. So that's fine. Uh because that's how often I get a new brace. But yeah, no, it's it's definitely like when I'm having my moments, I think that's where validation I actually don't mind having that relationship with it because I'm lucky enough to have people in my life where I can be like, I feel insecure. I like I got bangs and no one said anything. And so I went up to my one coworker and I was like, I need you to tell me my bangs look good. And they did, they're like, no, I promise, I promise. And I'm just like, okay, okay, thanks. But I like never wear them down again.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

That is funny.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Yeah, so I mean, I don't mind that. And that that's where I just I'm like, look, I'm a human being.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

You know, they're those one offs are more like I'm a human being.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

So I don't mind those. Um, but that's where like I don't think I'm ever gonna outgrow the need for validation. It really just is kind of managing like what feels good versus what you're dependent on.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

So tell me about you giving validation to other people. And is do you make a point of validating other people? What do you do if you can tell somebody wants validation, but you're like, mm-hmm, mm?

SPEAKER_00 23:35

So at this point in my life, I ask people what they're looking for, basically. Or they'll be like, I did this, I did this. So I'll be like, okay, like how can I support you right now? Like, do you want like feedback? Do you want to like like do you want to just know that like it's okay? Like, what do you like in and I ask in like a different way depending on the situation?

SPEAKER_01 23:56

No, and you're very good at that.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Yeah, where it's just like like how can I best serve you right now is basically the question. Um, and I'm not as good at it with one friend as others, and I've caught that about myself, and so I really like try to because there's someone who does come to me for feedback, and I need to really, really make sure I'm catching myself when it's like just validation. But I think I mean that's the thing that like therapy also is I think really helpful for is like validation that something's really hard. Like, and so I'm very big on that. I do that with like like even like a family member where I'm just like, yes, of course. It would be weird if you weren't sad right now.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Like that is an appropriate emotional response. And I don't think we do that for each other in general. Like, even if we like love someone, we don't do that. So for me, like that's the validation that like I think I'm I I think I'm good at like kind of stepping up and doing. Like, I've I know someone who's like going through a really hard time right now, and I was like, it's only been a week and a half, like be gentle with yourself, you know what I mean? Like, so that's where I try to really like mirror what has helped me because I think it is a very universally helpful thing.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

So I do that, but mostly people call me for feedback. So because Jesse's gonna be honest with you, and that's why Jesse needs to know what you're looking for right now. Yeah. I remember when someone called me and they were like, Do I take the good paying job here or do I take the less paying job in London? And I was like, clearly you want to go to London because if you call me, you know I'm saying London, right? Like, you know exactly what I'm gonna say. You know exactly what I'm gonna say. I'm never gonna say not Europe. Like, and my dad was like, should I get the car in orange? I was like, you know exactly what I'm gonna say. Of course, you get the car in orange. I always want things to be the most fun, period. So I am predictable. I I will say that about myself. But yeah, but that to me is the more important validation, is like when people are struggling to be like, yeah. That's a very normal thing.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

So that's where I am. What kind of validation do you feel like you try to give people?

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Um I don't want somebody to leave having engaged with me feeling bad about themselves. Um, I also don't like to say things that I don't mean. So I really try to balance it and be careful. I think that one of the challenges is that is my desire, not for people to leave, you know, leave feeling bad, but also, you know, I come from a family of a lot of love, however, also a family of you know, people who just like to joke around, and we will say things about each other which kind of might not necessarily seem nice in the moment, but it's just the way of that it's just how we interact. It's interesting because there was a congresswoman who made a comment about a politician who uh was a wheelchair user. I don't know if you remember this, and called him, you know, Hot Wheels. She said, Yeah, and here you have Hot Wheels over here, and you know, that really caused a lot, you know, of discussion within the disability community. Now, with me, I thought that was her way of saying, hey, you are somebody who is from a historically marginalized population. How is it that you're trying to make things harder for other people, even though you know people of color are women, this, that, the other? So, anyway, my point though is a lot of other people with mobility disabilities just really did not appreciate that comment. And I was thinking to myself, man, even though I walk with a cane, if my family had thought about that nickname, they would literally still be calling me Hot Wheels to this day from the time I walk, you know, used a wheelchair.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

That would still be my nickname, Hot Wheels.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Mm-hmm. I felt really bad because my coworker told me uh a nickname that they were like a teacher called them, and it was not a kind nickname, and I laughed really hard because it was really funny. I was like, I'm so sorry. They're like, no, no, it's okay. Like, it's cool. I mean, not cool, it's cruel and hilarious. We all teach. Now I'm curious. I'll tell you afterwards because it has their name in it, so I can't tell you. Oh, I understand. Yeah, on the recording. Um, but yeah, I I think I mean no one now it's not true. I was gonna say no one wants to leave people feeling bad, but some people kind of do.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

You know, some people kind of do. And I gotta tell you, only within the last five years, and I know this sounds very, very naive. I know this sounds very naive, but it has only been to the last five years where I've come to understand that not everybody was raised to be nice. Um I I just really thought that that was the case, and then some people kind of just you know, quote unquote, lost their way. But no, a lot of people are raised to be the jerks they are.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Yep. And other people are are raised to be nice and still make the choices they do to do what they do.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

That's true. But I mean, I will also say I'm very fortunate in that you know, most of the human beings that I've engaged with over my lifetime have been very nice.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Yeah, I always get thrown off when people call me nice because I didn't have but I didn't have like any tact for so many years, and I did not get that feedback. And then in my early jobs, it was like you need to not like give such direct feedback. So, like it's it's very counterintuitive. It's not feedback I ever got growing up. So it's very weird at this age to like be hearing it like not for the very first time, but like it's still very fresh feedback for me. And so I'm always like maybe because I know what's happening in my head, and you know like I know when I'm like yelling at someone in my head, but on the outside, I'm like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Poker face. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Like, as bad as my poker face is, it does actually, it is actually a thing that I do. Um, I was actually proud of myself because I got really livid in front of someone who doesn't know me that well, and they didn't really realize how mad I was, but I was just like, I'm very mad. They're like, okay. Like very like young kid, like how expressing my emotions. Like, I'm very mad about this, just so you know.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

I love how you announce it.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

Oh, yeah. That's the only reason I think I'm still married, is I'll be like, I'm irrational right now. I'm mad. That's what that's just so you can make your choices informed.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

Hey, man.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Do you think like, okay, so I want to go back to when you're talking about like when you're building something and the feedback is data and it like makes you like more confident in the output? Like, how do you build self-trust? Like, if if there was some sort of confidentiality thing where you were not allowed to ask for feedback, right? Like it's like a you were like a ghostwriter for celebrity autobiography. Like you could not ask for feedback. How would you build up that like self-trust that it was a good output?

SPEAKER_01 31:58

Um well, that's probably one of my challenges. I will spend way too much time in something trying to make sure that it is a good output. Like I'm and it's just it's just not productive in terms of aiming for 100%. I mean, there's always going to be something more. Uh, so that's something that I'm really trying to work on in terms of good enough meaning, good enough high standards. Because to me, good enough is C. Uh, I don't want to produce C work, but I can't always produce 100% work. So it's kind of like, okay, what what what's good enough? So maybe good enough is 87%. Yeah. You know, many people would say good enough is 80%, you know, 80-20 rule. I need a little more than 80%, I think.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

Depends on the context for me.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Okay, tell me more.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

I mean, I was I like what like I say, like a recovering perfectionist or whatever. I am still a perfectionist in some areas, but I've gotten so much better in other areas. But sometimes like I feel a little badly for not caring. And then I try to be like, well, it's actually good that you're saving your energy for elsewhere. Um, you know, like with crafting, I try to really like be like it's actually like about the process. And if the process isn't fun anymore, you can actually put the craft down.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

Yeah.

unknown 33:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Or like 10 years ago, that was not an option. Period. Um, sometimes I feel badly when I make mistakes at my current job because it's so easy, but then I'm not paid enough to be a perfectionist at my current job. So I actually like just feel really grateful that I have a team that's very patient with me and also I like to laugh at myself so we can just laugh at me when I make stupid like mistakes. I couldn't like open a door. I couldn't open a door. Multiple times I have not been able to open a door. And but there was one time.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Let me ask, was the door unlocked?

SPEAKER_00 34:10

So the most embarrassing one, and I was like, I don't embarrass easily, but like I still feel a little embarrassed because it was so it was just wow. Um when you have like double doors, they have these like additional latches.

SPEAKER_03 34:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

What I was apparently doing, because I assumed, oh, they either both go down or both go up. I kept going back and forth between one was locked and then the other was locked instead of both of them were unlocked. And I thought that it was jammed. And so I went and got my coworker who I do not know well enough to be a fool in front of. And then he stood there and was like, and then I was like, oh, wait. And like right when he like came in the room, I thought of it and I like opened it, and then I opened up it and I looked at him and I was like, tell no one. And he just started laughing. And I was like, that's where I'm like, you it's a Berkeley, you have an FEA and you can't unlock a door. Like it was wild.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Well, it's good nobody gave you light bulbs.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

I so true. Yeah, so it's definitely like, meanwhile, I'm just like, would you like me to design your budget from scratch? No problem. No problem. Would you like me to like project manage a global initiative? Of course. Happy to.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Um, and then those tricky locks, those tricky doors.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Yeah, I'm not good at a couple of the locks, and my coworker definitely started giving. I just hope that they never think of a nickname related to it, or I will hear that for the rest of my life. But our locks are like half broken. Whatever. But then I'm just like, it doesn't really matter because there's someone right here. And I literally just started handing them the keys and making them up the so that's what I mean by like, you know what? I do my job with a smile, and that's more than you could ask a lot of people sometimes. And that's enough. That is enough. I never make mistakes that cost y'all money. You know, I just wasted 15 seconds of his time, and that's that's it. And there that person's very nice to me and very patient with all of my questions. So it's fine. It's all fine. Okay, so 80-20 rule, not quite good enough for you. For me, very context dependent. Like if I were to write a book like 80's not it at all.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Right. No, mine would be 88, maybe. No, actually the book it was closer to 95.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

I was like, yeah, I'd like maybe in other areas, but definitely not the work you're doing now. Definitely not your class, things like that.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Yeah, yeah. In fact, yeah, I would say n I would say 95.

unknown 36:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

When things are high stakes.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

Well, and it's something very important to you.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

Yeah. Um. And that's where I struggle because I think sometimes too many things are important to me. And I think I've that's changed a lot in the last couple of years and probably a pretty healthy way. But Jesse, where she needs validation right now, and it's not great, is career pivots and career choices. And I'm just feeling very frustrated that I feel like I need someone to like cosign.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

On, well, I mean, cosign on how tough the job market is, or if people feeling frustrated, like cosign on what?

SPEAKER_00 37:45

No, I actually get annoyed when people are like, oh, it's the job market. I'm like, yeah, I'm not suggesting I'm not awesome. Let me be very clear about that. Like, I like I get it. But um, I mean, but again, they're trying to help, and it's like fine, that's fine. But uh like if I, you know, because I enjoy excelling travel and things like that, the economy makes it a very volatile thing. So I always knew I'd be doing a second thing. And so deciding what the second thing is, um, you know, for when I feel like travel's in a stable state is the thing right now. And so it's like I I need someone to tell me that like my ideas aren't bad ideas, and that's not great because they're my ideas, they don't affect other people the people that I'm asking. So like I need to be more confident in my own intuition, and that's where it becomes goes into this like codependence realm. My codependence is like thriving right now, it is truly like let's just latch on to people you enjoy. So, do you feel like you ever get codependent?

SPEAKER_01 38:51

I would say only on my work. I just I just really love what I do. I just really love what I do.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

So you're like instead of being codependent on a person, it's your work.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

That is correct. Yeah, that that holds up. I go to bed thinking about work. When I sleep, I think about it. And when I wake up, I've got new ideas to implement.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

Have you ever had someone be codependent with you and you're just like, nah?

SPEAKER_01 39:24

Yeah, I don't think I'm the warm and fuzzy type, to tell you the truth.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

You don't think you bring that you people like you don't put it out there for people to bring that energy?

SPEAKER_01 39:34

That's not a strength of mine.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

I will say because I am in my like codependence golden era, I definitely putting that out with some people right now. But I'm also like, I'm not gonna let that down. Like, I actually do feel like I sincerely have their back and we'll just make this healthier in the future.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's true. I mean, like with me, I think that I I'm pretty good when it comes to you know problem solving. So with me, I just really want to kind of get down to kind of like what are the facts, and you know, then here are some options that you might want to consider.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

You have given me, and I thought about this before we started when we were catching up, and like you've given me a comic number of suggestions, so few of which I it's gotta be frustrating. But like my problem has always been I have too many ideas and I have too many interests. But I'm not practical most of the time. I become more practical. I'm not practic the MBA was like my turning point in trying to be practical. And I don't know if I want to be practical anymore. And that's not a thing anyone has validated when I try to sell it to people.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

I gotcha, I gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Like, so maybe now I go get my master's in museum studies, which is what I originally wanted to do. At my my poor husband, who's so lovely, you can do anything, like, doesn't worry about me in that way. Uh, is like, but do you need to?

SPEAKER_01 41:07

It's like I don't I don't think you need to. What I think you what I think you want to know what I think? Let me ask you if you want feedback first.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

I mean for the podcast, sure.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

I think that you sh need to build a class on uh what are the steps it takes to uh uh plan uh and open and run an art gallery. Ooh and how to not pick one that has a roof that leaks and caves in. I think uh you know, whatever it takes. I mean, here's the thing you were not the first person who wanted to open an art gallery, and you will not be the last person who wants to open an art gallery. You went to that project with a dream. And that's that's it. I I think that you know, in the age we're living, with all of the support, whether they be online learning platforms, social media, whatever, your experience, uh what you would do again, what you would do differently, would be incredibly valuable to other people.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

You know, it's actually an interesting example as far as like, I mean, kind of going back to like how do we validate ourselves? Because, you know, at the end of the day, like I haven't had a gallery for like it wasn't open for like the rest of my life, you know, type of thing, which I actually like don't blame myself for because almost all the galleries closed down at that time. Recessions are a thing, right? Um sorry, I'm writing a note because you made me think of a really good idea. Look at you, inspire me. Um yeah, but I think you know, I think that actually the galleries, the best example I have at what healthy validation can look like for yourself, because I was very proud of myself and it was really hard, and I had a really steep learning curve. And I think it's a great example of one of the things I've been struggling with, even with travel sales, is like I miss being naive and not really knowing how hard something's gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

I miss that. I really wish I could like like in my brain and like not be naive to things that I think are important to like understand about the world and like be a good citizen, but be like a little naive about how hard things are gonna be. Because everything just feels so hard. And that's it didn't feel that hard. And even though ultimately, you know, it wasn't like a 10 year project, I learned I almost I will say this over and over again to anyone. Who will hear it? I learned more owning a gallery about business than I did in my MBA program. And I went to a good MBA program. It's not that I didn't learn a lot of things, but like that hands-on experience is like what I'm trying to pivot back to right now. But like, don't think it has to be forever. Your next step doesn't have to be forever. It's just when you get when you get older, I'm like, pivoting careers at this age is different than when you're 30, and it's going to be different at 50, and it's going to be different at, you know, that's where I just get a little bit more like in my head. But anyway, that I was able to, as hard as it was when things weren't going ideally, it's like, well, it's not my fault that there was a leak in the roof, you know, things like that. So it was, but I was still just like, yeah, and look, you figured it out.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

You figured it out.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

Um plain and simple. And I do know that I can figure things out, but sometimes I forget. So yeah. That was good. I mean, it was it was really nice to not require external validation, like sales to make me feel really good about what I did. And we mean we did sell things, but like it was it's kind of my like one-off example of just like it was really for me. And it was great, you know. And I had two business partners, you know, I was really close with one of them. And like the other one, um, I'm just so proud of kind of like where they've gone. To be clear, it's not that I'm not proud of the other one. I was also proud of them, but they have unfortunately passed away. So, you know, I was able to really build different relationships and learn a ton about myself. I would have, you know, that was the big thing. That was when I really learned, like, oh you should be more patient. But but yeah, I I do I've been looking at like uh nonprofits for the arts and things like that too again. But not a hiring market right now for that particular industry in particular, you know, it's not not thriving currently. Anyway, um so it sounds like you were never really like the codependent type. That's type, that's not the validation you were looking for.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

No, and I'm also somebody who's not really been into getting attention.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

So I don't like your whole life or later, like start when you're 20s.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

Um, I would really say my whole life. I'm really much more of a behind the scenes person.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

I'm inconsistent.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

Sometimes you like attention, sometimes you're like, oh I like feeling heard, and that can look a whole bunch of different ways.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

Like I'm okay with people like at this point, it's essential to, and this is one of the like at previous steps in my career. I actually had someone call me out on this, which was very helpful of them to do, because I want to share credit because I'm very nervous I will not I would accidentally not give someone credit for their contribution. So I always say we. Even if like no one else is involved, I just default to we. Um, because that is better than accidentally not saying we. And in the interview, they were like, okay, but what was your role? And I was like, oh, yeah, I gotta shift this pretty quick. I gotta clarify this pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

Yeah. Um I don't even remember what I brought that up, but uh but but I I under I understand what you're saying. I mean, you know, even as I tell my story and I'll you know talk on different podcasts about the book and the experience having spinal cord surgery, I'll say when we had the spinal cord surgery, even though I was the only one on the receiving end of the scapel.

SPEAKER_00 47:41

Yeah. I mean, and people say, like, we're pregnant, like yeah, yeah. And I was saying, like, it was so funny because I was saying something about, I don't know, something career related. And I was just like, Yeah, we're gonna take a step back this weekend. And they're like, Oh, who's we? And I was like, I'm gonna take a step back this weekend. Like, it is literally me alone in the house who will be doing this. And like, so I don't know, for me, like, I don't know what that is. I don't think it really does me any harm outside of an interview setting. Uh so I'm not really worried about it. But I think for me, attention can be a what like feed me and attention can destroy me. And like, we didn't have a big wedding because my husband hates attention. And there was something about in that context that made it feel like overwhelming and like, you know, let's just avoid it or whatever. Whereas, like, if I were to be like interviewed by CNN on something, I'm a subject matter expertise, like have that on. I'm like, yes, because you're listening to me.

SPEAKER_02 48:42

Listen to me.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

Um, but I don't think that would even, I mean, like, but that probably would be about validation. So in not an ideal way, but also like be proud of the things you accomplish. Like a national platform, that's an accomplishment. Some people get it that I wish they didn't get it. It is what it is. So I mean, look, uh, validation is not the number one thing on my uh to-do list right now in terms of changing my relationship with codependence is you know, probably pretty high. Not needing that validation that like I'm a good person, it would be better than not. But whatever. I'm just trying to get through one day at a time.

SPEAKER_03 49:31

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 49:32

I do like client validation because I think of it more as feedback though, just like you do.

SPEAKER_02 49:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

Because I want to do better every time. So like there are places where it's like you would think that that's where I would want the validation, but actually, like it feels great when you have a positive experience, and I'm not gonna be able to replicate that unless I know what you what went well. I'm, you know, tell me while you're on the trip that something's not going well so I can fix it, things like that. So that's that to me is like business. It's not personal at all. So I think it's just a very different equation. Whereas I'm just like, I would just love for everyone to believe in me that ever talks to me and like all like like let's all just believe in me right now while we because it's because I just feel vulnerable. There we go. There's my therapy conclusion. I'm in such a vulnerable place, and I have been for so long that I'm just like, you know what, whatever makes me feel better as long as it's not like physically hurting me. I just need the validation. Yeah, I mean, I'm human. It'll be different in three years. Everyone can just keep telling me I'm awesome now, that's fine. That's totally fine. Anything else you want to tell people or any advice you have to people who feel like they are uh maybe looking for validation too much?

SPEAKER_01 50:53

I mean, I think that looking for validation, and I'm gonna, as I said before, I sometimes seek validation, but I think it's also important to remember that sometimes you're not going to get validation when people A don't understand you, and B uh, what you're uh proposing or working on is just so different or unique that it's just really hard for folks to understand it to give you the validation. I mean it's just interesting because oh, here's a great example. So my brother, who is like super duper smart, he's really now there's also a rivalry, and I don't tell him that I think he's smart, but he really is, and quite frankly, I don't care, but you know, I'll never tell him that to my his face. But but bottom line is you know, we both have books, right? My mother has read my book many times. She's not read my brother's book.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

And does he know that?

SPEAKER_01 52:07

Yes. And she did not read she tried reading it because but she couldn't figure out an analogy that he had in the book to Star Wars. And when I said that to my brother, he was like, Yeah, it wasn't Star Wars, it was The Matrix, first of all. Um, but my point is that he's you know, he's an academic, and you know, his book would appeal to a much different audience. You know, my mother, look, my mother was in my book, so of course, you know, she's gonna, you know, read it and get feedback. But my point really in saying that is that some people, kind of like my brother, you've got all of these really brilliant ideas that are difficult for people to really latch on to and understand. So, while from my mother, he did get validation in terms of wow, you know, great job. I'm proud of you. She really couldn't provide any specifics, but she was still able to give general validation. Um, and so I say all that to say that sometimes not receiving validation has nothing to do with you or your work. It has something to do with, you know, what the limitations of other people.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

I hate to say it like that, but yeah, just what they're familiar with versus what they're not, like what they've had exposure to versus not. Like, I'm not talking about like who did I call when I was like really I was there's there's like a visual access uh aspect of this new brace that I'm like really like it's gonna get a lot of attention, not the tattoo part, but another part. It's gonna look kind of like objectively weird. And so who did I call my therapist friend who works with, like, who's very familiar with like how we see ourselves and staring and like all these things. And so I was like, I'm gonna need you to like validate, validate this right now. And they could, whereas like I couldn't call most people I know to talk to them about like the hate, like how much I hate being stared at, right?

SPEAKER_01 54:22

Like, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 54:25

Like I could have talked like there was like a couple people, but like I knew she was not working at that moment because I couldn't call her anyway. Yeah, no, I think that's a really good point. Like, I know I I think that's probably hard for my husband because he's not like familiar with like the arts, for example, um, or like technical training, things like that. Like everyone's only had the career that they've had, and maybe the family members have exposed them to other careers, and maybe not. So it's you know, it depends. But I like that point. I think that's a good like just because someone doesn't have feedback or doesn't have helpful feedback, it might not actually be about their desire to support you, too.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Yeah. That's why my husband tends to close with like, whatever you want, you can do it. Something similar to that. Like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

Yes, dear.

SPEAKER_00 55:16

I mean well, that's what I that's what I what did I tell them? I was like, I this was a while like a while back. And I was like, I kind of want to do this. Like, do you think like I could pull that off? And he's like, Well, I think you should do what you want to do. And I was like, honey, like, I want to be a professional mermaid. I don't think I should do what I want to do. He's like, Well, I don't know, could you like make a livable salary off of being a professional mermaid? And I was like, that's this is actually probably the cutest moment in a relationship. Like that is that is support and love right there, right? But all right. Validation. I do think if people are struggling with validation, I think it gets easier as you have more life experience. I don't think it's actually directly tied to age. I just think it's as you go through more things and you have to have your own back. I think it's a life experience thing.

SPEAKER_01 56:00

And I think that that's a really important distinct uh distinction in terms of age versus life experience. I was on the uh a call today with a potential client who was like in her 20s and she has like accomplished so much. I was doing my little research on her, I was like, wow, you've done all of this before 30. Um, so to your point, life ex age does not necessarily equal life experience.

SPEAKER_00 56:28

I think the more things you not just accomplish, because I had people who like my age will be like, I haven't accomplished anything. It's like, well, you have actually. It's just like what you think accomplishment looks like is probably a pretty narrow definition. So, like, that's a validation I'm happy to offer. Just like have and I I do this too. So yeah, I do think it gets easier over time and over experiences, and when you have more diverse experiences and then you can see these common threads in who you are, that to me is what I think has helped me the most too. Because I have like unusually diverse work experience in particular. So with that, and then also I'll just I'll we'll we'll go back to codependence and like once things are more stable for Jesse, she'll go back, she'll go back to she'll go back to a more healthy relationship with codependence. Right now, right now, everyone love me. That would be great. Thanks. Thanks everyone for joining this episode of the reboot diaries. Uh, if you have any questions, comments, feedback, uh, you can go ahead and email us through my travel site, which is hello at meridian by Jesse. That's jessy with an IE dot com. Um, and we want, I want topic suggestions, everyone. Send me topic suggestions. If you know me personally, text me. Just do whatever you need to do to get us those those topics. Um, we do have some exciting ones coming up though. So thanks, bye. Bye bye.