Take your relationships to the gym with Suzie & James Pawelski

Your relationships might be the most important thing you’re not training. 

"We should invest our relationships, like our health and well-being depends on it, because it does." - Suzie Pileggi Pawelski 

In this episode, Suzie and Dr. James Pawelski—the husband and wife who co-authored the book Happy Together—explore how thriving relationships aren’t all about finding the perfect match, but about putting in the right kind of effort to build something worth having.

Dr. Jillian Coppley is a visionary executive recognized internationally for her expertise in character strengths, wellbeing, and organizational transformation. With deep experience in positive psychology, strategy, and change, she has led large-scale collaborations, built global programs, strategic partnerships, and thriving organizational cultures that empower individuals, teams and organizations to flourish. Her leadership blends strategic vision, research-based innovation, and deep personal care for others —creating environments where people and programs thrive and where meaningful, lasting impact takes root.    

Suzie Pileggi Pawelski has a Master of Applied Positive Psychology degree from the University of Pennsylvania. She is a freelance writer, well-being consultant, and international speaker specializing in the science of happiness and its effects on relationships and health. Her 2010 Scientific American Mind cover story, “The Happy Couple,” was the catalyst for Happy Together: Using the Science of Positive Psychology to Build Love That Lasts.  Happy Together was named a best book of 2018 by Business Insider, Success magazine, Fatherly and The Greater Good Science Center.

James Pawelski is Professor of Practice and Director of Education in the Positive Psychology Center at the University of Pennsylvania where he co-founded the Master of Applied Positive Psychology Program with Martin Seligman in 2005.  The Founding Executive Director of IPPA, he is currently leading a three-year, multi-million-dollar grant investigating connections between the science of well-being and the arts and humanities.

This series is part of the Cynthia & Harold Guttman Family Center for Storytelling at the Nancy & David Wolf Holocaust & Humanity Center in Cincinnati, Ohio, where the science of character strengths is integral to our work creating a community of upstanders. https://www.youtube.com/@holocaustandhumanity  

Our thanks to the Mayerson Family Foundation and the VIA Institute on Character for their support of this series  

https://www.mayersonfoundation.org/   https://www.viacharacter.org/

Episode Resources     

Follow Jillian and her guests on LinkedIn 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/suziepileggipawelski/  

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jcoppley/  

https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-pawelski-1636572a3/  

Find out more about Suzie & James’s work 

https://www.suzannpileggi.com/ https://jamespawelski.com/  

Take your free character strengths quiz here  https://www.holocaustandhumanity.org/upstander/assess-your-character-strengths/

Transcript

Meet the minds behind "Happy Together"

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Inside you lie unique character strengths just waiting to be used. Standing up strong is where we harness them to build resilience, spark hope, and inspire courage. Lean into the best parts of who you are and lift others as you rise.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Hello and welcome. I'm Dr. Jillian Copley, and you have joined a Standing Up Strong podcast, the conversation where we get to welcome the biggest hearts and the biggest minds in the field of positive psychology, true global luminaries in the field of human flourishing. It is my absolute delight and honor to welcome Susie Pelegi Powelski and Dr. James Powelski today. I am so happy to share something about their history and their work with you. It is way too brief for everything they've done, but I'm so excited to jump into the conversation with you. I will just keep it as spare as possible. But what I do want to share with you is they are the authors of the best-selling book, Happy Together, and an online course, Building Love That Lasts for Wondrium. And these things were inspired, really catalyzed, by Susie's scientific American Mind cover story, The Happy Couple. With this work, they've inspired millions around the globe, I feel sure, to think about how to reconnect in new ways. They've also in this this fall released the Audible original Love and the Golden Years. In addition to their work on relationships, James also researches the well-being effects of the arts and the humanities, and has just edited with Catherine Cotter a special issue of the Journal of Positive Psychology, Positive Humanities. Arts, Culture, and Well-Being. What a delight that will be to read. So, Susie and James, if you have the delight of seeing them in person and hearing one of their really inspiring workshops or keynotes, you might also have the opportunity to observe one of their greatest accomplishments, and that is their son. They have a 15-year-old son, Liam, who frequently accompanies them, and what a joy it is to see them all as a family. So welcome, Susie and James. We're so delighted to have you in the conversation today.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Thank you. We're so excited to be here today with you.

SPEAKER_04 2:26

Thanks, Jillian. It's it's really great to be here.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Yeah. So, oh my gosh, you have such a deep and rich understanding of well-being as individuals as well as in relationship. And I'm just, I really want to dive into this notion because we, you know, we all find our way to well-being in our own unique ways, right? We know that there are some things that are quite universal for us, and there's also quite particular for us. But one of the things that seems to be so rich, so important in terms of predicting our happiness long-term and lifelong is the center of deeply connected relationships. And I'm wondering if you could talk to us a little bit about that relationship and that research and the work that you have done in the field.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Sure. We began getting into the area of relationships. Early on when I first studied positive psychology, Marty Seligman, the founder of positive psychology, uh, his model, which many know is PERMA, which stands for positive emotions, engagement, relationship, meaning, and accomplishment. They're the pillars for his theory of happiness. Well, when I was studying, he didn't have the relationship pillar. And I always wondered, it was just positive emotions, engagement, and meaning. And being a natural connector that I am, I love people. I would talk to him, like, why isn't there relationships? We know Chris Peterson summed up the entire field, other people matter. And I felt that early on, or at least in the infancy, we focused a lot on individual well-being in the field, which is incredibly important. But we're social creatures, right? We wouldn't be here without others, without our parents. We need others not just to survive, but to thrive. So I started looking into literature at the time. And as you mentioned, I did a piece for Scientific American Mind. I never dreamed I'd be writing a book with my husband on relationships, but I felt that there's so much great research in academic journals. And at the time, a lot of relationship books or manuals, if you will, it was about fixing problems. And of course, that's important, but that's gonna just bring you back to, you know, kind of maybe mid-level. So I thought, well, what are those strengths, what are those traits, what are those activities, exercises based on science that we can all do to help build and strengthen our relationship? So that's just a little introduction, um, what um, you know, was the catalyst um for me to get involved in the relationship uh area. And then I think, James, for you being my husband, I was like, maybe we'll write a book together. And at first, as a philosopher, he's like, I'm not writing a book on relationships, but we wrote a book on relationships, right?

SPEAKER_04 5:16

We did, and just a couple of things that your question makes me think about with regard to Chris Peterson, who, of course, is the major figure behind the via classification of strengths and virtues. And he famously has said about positive psychology that you could sum up the field in three words: other people matter. And so clearly he had um his finger on the importance of relationships. In fact, uh he's one of the reasons why Marty included the R in Perma. Uh Chris insisted that relationships was something that that really needed to be um be a part of the field. And uh Chris also was famous for saying there are no happy hermits. So if you have no relationships in your life, uh then you know it's a lot harder to get to the um to get to the happiness level. So when Susie invited me, asked me if I would be interested in writing a book with her on relationships, the number one reason why I said yes is because I thought it would be a great way for us to work on our relationship. One of the things that we don't want people to assume is that because we're in this field, that means we must have the perfect relationship, and we've never had any kind of a disagreement about anything. Um we are human beings, and um we have our challenges, our strengths, and our challenges just like anyone else. And so we believe strongly that it's important to put in the effort, it's important to do the work, it's important to learn about the research and then to put it into practice in our daily lives and not simply take relationships for granted. They're too important for that.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Yeah, oh I love that. And thank you for making us all feel better that you know there's not a perfection out there that we just haven't attained yet. So thank you for that. Um you know, on the other side of the fence, though, there's there is all this research that we know it's important, and at the same time, sitting right alongside that is um this growing epidemic around loneliness. I mean, what our former Surgeon General was really identified as truly an epidemic, and how um, in the same way we know that relationships are so critical, how incredibly impairing that loneliness can be. And I'm I'm wondering if you all have a sense of that, like why we're facing that at this moment, what um what you would have to share about about how we've landed in this place.

SPEAKER_02 7:50

Well, sadly, right now, the younger generation, you know, the generation Z and the younger folks um have a higher level level of the social disconnection. And a lot of it, I mean, I think there's a myriad of factors, but we all know about you know technology. Technology is a tool, like any tool, it can uh benefit us or it could hurt us. It's how we use it. So, like during COVID, we were using technology to get in touch with James's parents and um and my parents who are older, and that's a great thing. But that's in addition to you know already having uh close relationships. Um, a lot of people are using it maybe as escapes, escapism, or instead of meeting with their friends in person. We know we learn from other people, eye-to-eye contact, mirror neurons. Um, so I think we have to really be careful for those of us who are parents or grandparents, being around the younger kids, really encouraging them to get together with their friends in real life, in real person and having connections. Um, a report just came out. You might want to talk about that, uh colleague of yours, uh Julianne's work on the social disconnection that just came out recently.

SPEAKER_04 9:00

Yeah, so the Surgeon General, Dr. Vivek Morti, his report was actually based on the work of Dr. Julianne Holt Lundstad. In fact, she was the scientific editor for that um guidance that was issued. And she has now um put together a consortium that will be studying social connection uh across the United States in for the next 25 years. So a sustained study called Social Connection in America. They just came out with their first report, and so that will allow us to benchmark how are we doing? Are we doing better about connecting with others or are we slipping uh along those lines? And part of what I love about what Julianne says is that although loneliness and social isolation are real problems, the protective factors that come from social connection are actually greater than the danger that come from isolation or loneliness. So she really emphasizes, and I think that's very consonant with what this podcast is all about, and certainly the work that Susie and I do, is focusing on what are those things that can help to bring us together, that can provide not only those protective factors, but also those promotional factors. So I want to just add one thing onto what Susie was saying about the technology, um, and that is how we use our money. So interestingly, uh, money can be used for things that bring us together, or it can be used for things that bring us apart. So as you have more money, you tend to go from having a roommate to living by yourself.

SPEAKER_03 10:42

Right.

Using character strengths in relationships

SPEAKER_04 10:42

Right? You're able to then buy space, buy distance, buy your privacy, uh, because we think that that will make us happy, right? But it turns out that it can make us isolated and lonely. Um, we may then live in a place where we don't even know our neighbors, and we don't think that we need to rely on them or depend on them because we're self-sufficient, we have the money to be able to have our groceries delivered to us, we have the money to be able to have, etc. etc. So ironically, what we do with our money can actually wind up being a kind of cocoon or a buffer or a barrier to being able to connect with other people.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Yeah. Oh my gosh, such a such an important thought. I I truly, it's so interesting you bring this up. I literally was just thinking the other day what it was like to have one television, one car, and how that made, in some ways, life much smaller, less independent, but actually much more cohesive, right? Connected to the family, because there's three channels, there's one television you only watch or you don't watch altogether. Same with the car. You're in that neighborhood, the car's, you know, one person's taking it, everybody is just there in the neighborhood. Um, so I know we could talk about that topic alone uh for these next few minutes, but I want to um also shift a little bit because I know Susie, you just recently um uh focused uh a recent Psychology Today post on um you referenced Todd Cashdon's work, but this notion of um also of course your own research and work in the field, but this notion of what strengths have to say about our relationships, what character strengths have to say, and not just as we call it strength spotting and seeing the best in one another, um, but there's a lot more to it, a lot of uh layers of complexity about how our character strengths can really fuel our relationships. I'd love to hear you talk more about that.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Absolutely. So we know from research when we exercise our strengths as individuals, um, we have greater well-being, and that makes sense intuitively, right? So if you're a naturally creative person and you get to do that at your work every day or in your leisure, you're gonna be happier because you're bringing your authentic self to the table. Well, the same in relationships. We're all, you know, different, we have our unique qualities. Maybe we share some strengths with our partner, but it's really important to find out what if those of us in a you know marriage or committed relationship, or not just romantic relationships, but friends and families, colleagues, find out what um the other people's strengths are and what yours are. And instead of um, I talked about like gift giving, often we give a gift that we like, not so much our partner. But this is something that doesn't um really involve guessing or um money. But if I know my partner's top strength uh is love and learning, yes, as this one's would be, and maybe he knows uh mine is I'm a pretty zestful person if you haven't uh known that already. What are those things we can do together? Um, so a date, an outing, you don't even have to go out, you can do something in the house. What is an experience? And how can you be creative and create something where I can bring zest to the table and James's love of learning? I mean, one thing we like to do because he likes to learn about the city and history, and I'm more physical, I like to be out in nature. I mean, he likes that too. But one time we rented um segues and we did a historical uh tour of our city. So I got to like zoom around and I was having a great time. I was listening to the tour guide, but you know, he had a pen in his pocket taking notes. So at the end of the day, we both really felt like my sense of um zest was really satisfied and his sense of love of learning. And Tod Cashton's research shows that when we help facilitate um strengths in our partner, it leads to a greater uh connection, a deeper connection. Uh, couples are happier and more satisfied overall with the relationship and sexual satisfaction. And if you think about it, I mean it totally makes sense because if I'm doing something with my partner that um he is enjoying because he's bringing his love of learning into it and he's really being himself. How much better is that than when somebody's dragged, you know, on a date and they have no interest in doing that? Now, of course, compromise, sometimes you know, you go along with your partner if they want to do something you don't have an interest. But I think looking at strengths, it doesn't really matter the activity so much as long as they can bring that strength. So maybe you have a partner who's really funny or hopefully really kind. What kind of activities can you do to use those strengths? How can you create opportunities for your partner?

unknown 15:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:41

So, Jillian, can I jump in on this question too? Because I think it's it's a super, super important one. I I very much like what you said, Susie. So when we think about strengths use within relationships, again, whether it's romantic or a work colleague or a friend or a family member, it does add these complexities that go beyond what we normally think of when we think about identifying your own strengths and putting them out into the world, using them more in new ways. And so what Susie just described is a really important way of acknowledging that there are differences within relationships, and that those differences can be integrated and brought together in unique and creative ways that can be satisfying to both partners, and that can help us negotiate situations where otherwise there might be a dissatisfaction because only one person's strengths were kept in mind and being addressed. Another way of thinking about this complexity in relationships is that there's a the many at least of the strengths have a giving and a receiving side to them. So if you think about gratitude, for example, it's one thing to give gratitude, it's another thing to receive gratitude. So we like to talk about, we like to use metaphors with regard to relationships. One of the metaphors we like to use is about the gratitude dance. So just like in many forms of dance, not all forms, but many forms, there's a kind of an initiation and a response, and that's what keeps the dance going. We think that in gratitude there's a kind of an opportunity for an initiation, and then a kind of opportunity for a response. Typically, when people talk about gratitude, it's all about the initiation. That's important to notice what other people are doing, to um to express gratitude for what other people are doing. And oftentimes, though, that's as far as the advice goes. And what we've found in giving our workshops and seminars around the world, this isn't just something that um is a challenge for people here in Philadelphia where we are, but around the world, people feel awkward. How do I respond to gratitude? How do I respond, even when somebody gives me a compliment? How do I respond to that? And so oftentimes people will kind of um kind of brush it off or shut it down, oh that's nothing, or don't worry about it, don't thank me, or don't. And we think of that as kind of a way of actually stopping the gratitude dance from happening. It's as though one person says, Would you like to dance? and the other person says, No thanks. No thanks. So what can we do not only to initiate gratitude, but also to respond to gratitude in ways that acknowledge and take it in and make the other person feel heard, and also indicate that we've accepted that gift, we've accepted the invitation to dance, and we collaboratively work together on deepening and strengthening that experience.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Yeah, oh my gosh. Um, really so important. I mean, I love I love thinking about this uh notion of a relationship being this dance of strengths, right? The both the synergy of it and the collision of it, right? Because dancing is about both of those things at times. Um, a beautiful metaphor. Um and I can absolutely vouch for the fact that you embody your character strengths in the sense that I am I I uh deeply connect with Susie as being zestful and deeply connect with you, James, as being a love of learning. So I I I love hearing that reinforced. And of course, I have to thank you because um, you know, when it comes to coupledom, big holidays coming up, whether it's birthday, whether it's you know the end-of-year holidays or what have you, this whole notion of gift giving can be deeply stressful. Like, what do I do for this person? And so what you're sharing with us is like, wow, you just you need to look at really who they are through the lens of their strengths, and that will give you insights into how to really address them in a way that's meaningful to them. If I've captured that right now.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

Absolutely, and the combinations and dates, if you will, or outings are endless because you know, we all have strengths, we have them in different configurations. So I would recommend picking one of your top strengths and having your partner or friend pick theirs and come up with really fun ideas. What are those activities you can do and you know, just make it a really great time and uh um talk about it, how it went afterwards. And it's really uh limitless the number of experiences uh or dates you can do by focusing on strengths instead of thinking, where are we going? Uh, what restaurant do we want to go to, or where should we go this week? Look at the strengths and be creative. And then we know too that novelty is very important when it comes to successful relationships and helps um boost relational satisfaction. So it's a win-win, uh, whichever way you look at it.

SPEAKER_04 20:55

Totally. And when we think about gifts, oftentimes we think about things. And, you know, things can be wonderful things, can be wonderful to give as gifts, uh, and they can also not be wonderful to give as gifts. Um, Susie and I have come to the point where you know we have a lot of things, and so we don't necessarily welcome or think about where would we put those things, right? Um, and so when someone, you know, feels obligated, like, well, it's the holidays or it's your birthday, so let me give you a thing, the other person may or may not feel like they have room for that thing or need for that thing. Uh and then you know, oftentimes we we pay attention to that thing only when it malfunctions. Uh, and then it's a thing that needs to be repaired or something, right? So focusing on experiences is a way of giving gift that can become a part of the relationship itself, a part of the shape. Shared memory of the relationship. And so it's a gift that keeps on giving and doesn't just sit on a bookshelf or sit in a drawer or sit in the garage.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Yeah. Oh my gosh, I love that. I mean, it's like transforming this thing that's quite can be quite transactional into something that's like shared meaning for the couple, right? I mean, you've taken something that's that's kind of commonplace and made it something much more important. Really, really wonderful. So I'll I'll take another um turn here if you don't mind, which is you know, we've talked about some of the possibilities of a relationship and how we cultivate, you know, the best in one another, look for the best in one another, activate that, dance with one another. Um what do you think you know? Obviously, um we have a growing you know, the growing increase of people who don't make it as couples. Um and and relationships that are challenging. I mean, what do you find kind of is the the barrier to activating everything that's possible? Or what are some of the challenges that you see around the world? Because I know you've worked with so many couples and and spoken to so many groups. Um do you see some commonalities of the challenges and and how they can be addressed?

SPEAKER_02 23:14

I think often we tend to think about our partner the way we think of ourselves. So, well, this is what I would want in that experience, or this is what I would do. And but we are not our partners. And I think in the beginning of a relationship, um, if we think about normally you spend hours talking to someone, maybe on the phone, asking questions, that sense of curiosity, and then months, years, decades maybe into the relationship, you kind of stop asking questions often, or you assume you know your partner. I mean, we're always growing. Uh, I think the strength of curiosity, one of the biggest strengths, is something we should always uh use in our relationships, whether we've been together, you know, a couple weeks or a couple years or you know, decades. Um, so that's one thing, asking questions and then reminding ourselves what was it about our partner? What was his or her strengths that attracted me? Um, maybe that deep sense of love of learning. If I'm getting frustrated that we have more books in our house than most public libraries, you might be able to see some of the public. I thought I had a lot of books and vegetables, but I love that about it. I'm like, well, a sense of love of learning, and then years later, could I could think like, oh, he's just trying to annoy me by buying, you know, two dozen more books and there's no more room. Um, but instead thinking back, well, my husband has a sense of love of learning. That's who he is, or maybe with my zest when I'm you know high energy that I'm not trying to uh be loud at in the evening when you're trying to get some sleep, but that's kind of who I am. But I'd also say on the flip side, you might want to talk. Do you want to talk about um the overuse and underuse and not using our strengths just as an excuse? Yeah, so again Aristotle said something important about that, right?

SPEAKER_04 25:09

So for Aristotle, there is a continuum. Uh so if you think about, for example, our response to fear, we can respond to fear, uh we can have too strong a response to fear, and that we might call cowardice, or we can have too weak of a response to fear, um, and we might call that recklessness. And so Aristotle says that in between those extremes, the extreme of excess and the extreme of deficiency, is the relative mean. That's where the virtue is, the virtue of courage. And that relative mean is dependent on the context of the situation, it depends on who you are. And so it's important to, it requires wisdom to understand the situation, to understand who you are, where you're coming from, and to pinpoint what the right kind of response is, what the right kind of uh emotion is in this particular situation. So it's easy to think about, oh, I have the strength of love of learning, therefore, and then to be um, you know, uh single-minded about. Therefore, I can buy any book I find that I find attractive on Amazon, right? I can buy limitless numbers of these books. And um it's important to have some nuance around that, right? Because my love of learning might be infinite, but my bookshelf capacity is not. So, how do we find the right contextual match there, the right contextual fit, particularly when we're in relationship? And so, how does my love of learning, how can my love of learning play out in these particular situations and ways that work for those that I'm in relationship with?

SPEAKER_02 26:56

I was just thinking of something funny Chris Peterson said to me once. He's like, you know, you gotta be careful with certain careers. Like, you can't use your strength as an excuse. He's like, for example, he said, if I'm an accountant and I'm just being really, really creative, that could get me in serious trouble. And, you know, finding these loopholes that I know aren't correct, but I was just using my sense of creativity. So not using our strengths as an excuse. Or me throwing a crazy party late at night when I know you have to get up early to work on a research paper. Well, honey, you knew I was desperate when we got together. I mean, that's you know, being really irresponsible. Um so I think modulating our strengths. Uh, I wanted the philosopher to talk about Aristotle, but I think he said it pretty succinctly. The mean between the extreme, there's context, there's different cultures, there's situations. So sometimes we might have to, you know, modulate the strengths given the uh occasion.

SPEAKER_04 27:57

Yeah, and the other piece of this too is it might be the case that kindness is not one of my signature strengths, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be kind, right? So there are some there are some things that you need to practice even if you're not world-class at it yet. Uh and so um there's a baseline uh that we should um not forget in all of this.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as you were speaking, I was reminded of you have already shared um Chris Peterson's just sage and beautiful words that you know, summing up all of positive psychology is other people matter. And I've heard it said, I'll check this with you if this is true or not, but I've heard it said that he followed that up with, and they can't read your mind. So I'm wondering in the context of what you were just sharing with relationship, right? So you can, James, you you're talking about, you know, wanting to activate your kindness, and where is that responsibility at times for your partner to say, hey, I need a little more of this strength from you. Um, I don't know. Is does that play into how you think about relationships as well?

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Absolutely. We say all the time, we're not mind readers. He was also talking about gratitude. A lot of couples we spoke to, uh, those who are having uh really big challenges or breakups, divorces. I remember one couple in particular, they didn't have any like big fights, but she said it was like a slow uh boiling over the years or simmery, where he felt that she wasn't appreciated. Her husband had no idea. And after 25 years, she left. And unfortunately, you know, he he saw the situation, but it was too little, too late, she said. But she didn't feel appreciated. And he said, Of course I appreciated you, but she needed to hear it. So sometimes we may feel grateful, but we're not expressing that gratitude to the other person. That's really important. And it's not just if you express it, uh Sarah Aljo's work and Barb Frederickson, it's how you express it. So focusing on the strengths and the actions of the other person rather than just focusing on the benefit to yourself. So focus on the giver rather than the gift.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Beautiful. Yeah. Well, you truly, my mind is abuzz in terms of all the things you've shared and what I want to process after our conversation. But I I would love to hear you say, I mean, just truly knowing how critical our relationships are to our long-term well-being and and so many other positive impacts on our lives, health, and well-being in total physical, mental, psychological, social, et cetera, et cetera. Um, what would you want while our leader or while our listeners are finding your um latest release before they get to that? What do you want them to remember to take away from this conversation about relationships? Something they can just keep in their minds, something they can act on, something that you think is like the critical thing for them to understand as a result of this conversation?

SPEAKER_02 31:13

I would say relationships, it's like we have like a muscle, like the physical gym. Think about we like to uh talk about the relationship gym. There are things you can do, their skills, their strengths that you could practice and exercise on a regular basis. Don't wait. We should invest our relationships, like our health and well-being depends on it, because it does.

SPEAKER_04 31:36

Another metaphor we like to use is the metaphor of the gym, the relationship gym, as a way to come together and work out on things and exercise ourselves. It takes effort. Uh, it takes rightly directed effort. And um, fortunately, there are many resources and an increasing number of resources about uh how we can direct our effort in developing our own character, but then also in supporting those around us in the development of their character and in the ongoing continued uh development of uh of our relationships.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Yeah, just wonderful. Well, as I shared, you've given at least me and I'm sure all of our listeners so much to think about. So I just want to thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your insights with us and um doing that so graciously. Thank you, Susie and James.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

Thank you. This was lovely.

SPEAKER_04 32:35

Thank you. A real joy to be with you, Jillian.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Yeah, and thank you so much to everyone who's tuned in to listen. Just keep standing up strong, showing up, and remembering who you are at your best and helping others do the same. That's how we'll create a better world.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Standing Up Strong is a production of the Nancy and David Wolfe Holocaust and Humanities Center in partnership with the VIA Institute on Character. Find the link in the show notes to take a character strengths survey for free. Managing producer is Ann Thompson, technical producer is Robert Mills, and technical director is Josh Emerson. This series is part of the Cynthia and Harold Gutman Family Center for Storytelling and is generously supported by the Meyerson Family Foundation. It is recorded at Technical Consulting Partner Studios in Cincinnati, Ohio.