Emotionally Intelligent Leadership, with Cameron Burgess and Richard Bullock

Effective leadership takes emotional intelligence. Cameron Burgess, National Director of Sanctuary, and Richard Bullock, National Practice Lead for Sanctuary, discuss self-awareness, self-management, social awareness, and relationship management, and how these translate into safer, higher-performing teams. Expect practical tools, safety plans for leaders, and ways to have courageous conversations that build trust and drive change.

Guests: Cameron Burgess, Richard Bullock, Sanctuary, The MacKillop Institute
Produced by: The MacKillop Institute

Chapter markers:
00:00 Why emotionally intelligent leadership matters
04:20 Self-awareness to self-management, closing the gap
10:05 Reading the room, team awareness and dynamics
15:30 Leadership safety plans, triggers and strategies
20:40 Courageous conversations, curiosity and empathy
25:55 The SELF framework, safety, emotion, loss, future
30:10 Practical habits to start this week

If themes in this episode affect you, support is available in Australia, Griefline 1300 845 745, Beyond Blue 1300 22 4636, Lifeline 13 11 14.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

That's TMI, the Meaningful Insights Podcast, delving into the heart of human-centered professions.

SPEAKER_03 0:07

That's TMI, is recorded on the lands of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to all the traditional custodians of the lands on which you are joining from today. We've got a great couple of guests with us today. We've got the wonderful Cameron Burgess, who is the National Director of Sanctuary. And we're also joined by the also wonderful Richard Bullock, who is the national practice lead for Sanctuary. And I'm sure both of them will tell you a little bit about what we're talking about when we mention sanctuary. That's a kind of odd word to be using straight off the bat for this episode. But before we get into that and our topic for today, which is emotionally intelligent leadership, might just quickly introduce our two guests. So first of all, Cameron, Cam Burgess, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks, Chris. It's good to be with you. Thank you. And Cam, am I right in thinking that you've got a pretty extensive career across not-for-profits and the community sector? And you've worked extensively across Australia and also in Southeast Asia. You've held multiple positions in management roles and senior leadership, but ultimately all of those roles have been about good leadership, effective leadership, about people and about communities and culture, and really being driven by that compass of making change and impact in the world. And you've even held chair positions or not-for-profits in Myanmar, and you've had a range of experiences by the sense of things. Yeah, that's right, Chris. Goodness.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

I've obviously been around for a while, but yeah, look, it started out back in the day studying social work. And it was probably in that last, I think my last year when I realized I was really interested in community development and probably realized that my passion lay around building the capacity of people and teams and organizations and in fact whole communities, which I've been really privileged to do in lots of different contexts from public housing estates here in Australia to really grassroots development in impoverished communities in places like Myanmar, as you mentioned. But I yeah, I think the thread, you nailed it, is just about how do you actually create the environment in which people as individuals and groups thrive and grow. So yeah, somehow all leads to this.

SPEAKER_03 2:39

And also a pretty big fan of basketball, I hear.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_03 2:43

I think there was something in there about winning a competition recently.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Not so recently, Chris, but for anyone out there who is of middle age and spent too much time playing, watching sport as a young person, yeah. Probably a decade ago now, we convened a group of slightly unfit middle-aged ex-basketball players to see if we still had it. And the answer in season one was no, we don't. And I think we finished bottom of the ladder, and it was humbling but not surprising. And we had one or two training sessions. And season two, I'm proud to say that the old guys took out the championship, defeated a team of 18-year-olds, and at that point we hung up our guardians and have never played again because that just seems like the right thing to do. But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

Leave it to the young ones. That's what I see. And Rachel, thank you so much for joining us as well. And thank you for being here and giving us some of your time.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Oh, thanks, Chris, and really appreciate you. I'm sitting here feeling like I'm gonna set up for a joke. I've got the Kiwi accent, you've got you're hitting with the Scottish. Cam's coming in with a warm bully and like Australian accent.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

I know exactly what you mean. I was in a call with someone from the US the other day, and it felt like the start of a joke because there was a Scotsman, there was an Irish person, there was an American, there was an English person, and I was like, yep, this definitely sounds like the start of something.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Awesome to be here. And look, by way of introducing sort of myself, look, I live now on Waterong Country, sitting here in Port Arlington, but I am a Kiwi boy, been involved with education for over 25 years and a real diverse version of it. So from international baccalaureate schools to Steiner schools to low decile, like really struggling sort of communities. But where I really found my tribe, if you like, was in actually in the trauma-informed space, was part of working along a number of amazing educators that you well know. Back in 2014, we set up McKillop set up their first trauma-informed school, which the heart of it was sitting at Sanctuary. And it was a real light bold moment for not only amazing, unconditional positive regard to kids and their families, but really what it meant for staff and for leadership. Just putting the relational, the human experience at the heart of the whole organization. And yeah, since then I've just been super passionate about it and really love working across all parts of the organization around that sanctuary model. So awesome to be here, man.

SPEAKER_03 5:15

And Rachel, you mentioned that you helped establish one of McKillop's first schools in 2014 in Geelong, which was a special assistant school helping to really support some of our most vulnerable young people. We've now just opened our fourth school in Sydney, and you talked about the fact that school was essentially a sanctuary. When we talk about sanctuary, what do we mean?

SPEAKER_00 5:39

It's essentially it's a model that sits as the underpinning for which McKillop Family Services as a whole of organization happens. Yeah. But in its essence, it is around trying to develop a kind of a setting condition, which is all around safety, with the goal of then being able to have transformative healing processes as a trauma-informed space. But in in that nature, I think it's not more than just being about not everything safe or the ability to be kind. A lot of it's some of that real difficult work of working around, rolling up the sleeves and having some of those difficult conversations, those hard conversations, the elephants in the room, that we can become really good about recovery and moving through so we don't get stuck. So that to me is the heart of it is about the constant change and transformative effect that we need to work as a healing community.

SPEAKER_03 6:35

And Rachel and Cam, you both work to deliver sanctuary as a model to other organizations. And this is a huge part of your work. Now, you support the implementation of Sanctuary here within our own organization, but also supporting other organizations to learn about what Sanctuary is and how to implement it effectively to support them through that journey because that takes time. It's essentially a whole of organization change process, and that's not quick and it's not necessarily easy. And that's essentially what you do day-to-day now, Cam. Is that right? Yeah, that's correct, Chris.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

So I have the privilege of often traveling with Richard here to all sorts of different organizations, the theme always being around creating an or embedding change within an organization. But in order for that to happen, we're always needing to understand human behavior and how change happens. And so a pretty significant component of that is leadership and that interplay between emotional intelligence and leadership. I think I've got the best job in the world.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

And what a great topic for today and for today's episode. So just on that, Cam to help implement sanctuary in any organization, it's really likely that we need emotionally intelligent leaders and emotionally intelligent leadership. So we thought, what a great topic for today's episode. But what does that mean? Often I think we we hear these terms and we don't sit with them. We don't sit with them and think, what does that really mean? What is emotionally intelligent leadership? What does it involve? What does it look like? What does it feel like? Calm to you, what is emotionally intelligent leadership?

SPEAKER_02 8:22

You're right. Like it's one of those things, Chris, where we all nod. So often you talk into a room or in a conversation and you use this terminology, and everyone nods in furious agreement and presumption that, oh yeah, we all understand what that means. And I think part of the work that Richard and I do is trying to actually move that from an abstract concept to how do you know if you are being led by someone who's emotionally intelligent, if you're leading or influencing, how do you know? What are the metrics for being an emotionally intelligent leader? And Richard mentioned that idea of safety. I think one thing's for sure, we know intuitively when we're in the presence of someone who is emotionally intelligent because we feel safe. They somehow make us feel safe, but what's that about? And and how is that uh demonstrated through the skill of leadership? But by kind of way of laying up here, I am using your basketball pilots, yeah, Chris, but laying up a bit of a definition. It's this idea that we can both understand and manage our own emotions first and foremost. And that's probably easier than it sounds in reality. And they're not always guaranteed that if you understand your emotions that you're going to manage them either. It's understanding what makes you tick when you're at your best and maybe when you're under pressure, then how to manage those emotions. But that's the first part of the equation. I suppose the second part is then being able to recognize and influence the emotions of those around you. So it's understanding the impact of your emotions on others, but also influencing the emotions of those around you. And I think as opposed to being a nice to have, wouldn't it be nice to have emotionally intelligent leaders? I actually think it's essential to have. Like in the war for talent, if you can go after one thing and one thing only, I'd be going after emotional intelligence in a leader, knowing that then those other skills can be developed over time. But that's what's going to create the environment in which other people can thrive.

SPEAKER_03 10:31

That I at times understand my own emotions and behaviours and yet can't manage them. For example, I know and fully understand that it drives my other half up the wall the way I stack the dishwasher, but I don't change that behavior. I still continue to do it, even though I know it's going to get a reaction, and even though I know what that reaction is going to be. And why is that, Cam? Why do we why can we be aware of our own emotions, but not necessarily the behavior and the impact of them?

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Yeah, that's a great question. And I won't even go into the dishwasher stacking conversation.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

Stack it like a raccoon. However, a raccoon stacks a dishwasher, that's how I do it, apparently.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

Post this, I'm gonna Google raccoon stacking dishwasher and see if I can get some small disturbing insight into your domestic life or not. Yeah, I look, it's such an interesting question. Like, we why don't we change our behavior? I think some sometimes just behaviors have served us well for a long time, and there's a resistance to why would I do things differently? But maybe, you know, the other part of that question is we're not always sure of the impact. So if we think we're managing our emotions or perhaps we know we're not, that we're not always clear on what the impact on other people is of our behaviors. And so we can think that we're demonstrating emotional intelligence, but it's not until we create a bit of a feedback loop to actually hear from other people and be vulnerable enough to seek feedback that maybe we realise that what we think is stoic control of our emotions might come across to someone else like being passive aggressive, right? We've got to we wander through the world without always great insight into how others perceive us. So I think maybe there's two parts there resistance to change and being courageous enough to ask, how do you experience my leadership or my that my response to that particular situation that happened? But I don't know, Richard, any yeah, yeah, further thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 12:40

And I yeah, I'm also likewise stuck on Chris's raccoon stacking, which I'm sure you're coming with the right intention, but the other halves looking at you in horror, going, What the hell are you doing? And look, Sanctuary does ask us to look a little bit beyond that. We it's very quick to jump to the assumption that we you generally, as humans, we judge ourselves, our inner selves, by our own intention because we can hear those in our heads, but our judgmental selves will judge everyone else by the action, good or bad. So when we think about things where somebody challenges us about our behavior, where we create a piece of discord there, and that's where the change piece comes into play. And as soon as we're creating that sense of change, there's gotta be some loss in the some something along that journey, and it's gotta be a little, there's a little bit of a pain point. The scale of that's interesting, of course. But ultimately, it all starts with us all like all problems. Usually, when we think about what do I need to do, just come back to self-reflection first, developing that self-awareness to then move into better self-management. And we do this a little bit with, for example, in the sanctuary model, one of the 101s of in terms of a practice tool is having everybody in an organization having their own safety plan. And for leaders in particular, we can extend that out to a leadership safety plan where it's what are those things that really challenge me as a leader? How does that show up in my body and my physiological feelings? How does that show up in my behaviors? Because we also fall, if you want to Google up around the drama triangle, the reenactment, where we can fall into archetype roles that are ultimately unhelpful and keep us in this drama cycle of no change. But we know that play the stress plays out in our behaviors, it alters the way that we wish to lead, and we end up having a narrow lane. Our cognitive functions starting to really, we've got the blinkers on, our approach is only on threat and seeing things as threatening, we're over-generalizing, we're jumping to conclusions, all the things that we sometimes, when we're in the heat of it, we're s we don't realize until down the track and we reflect, oh, that's who I was being. But it's us, and it so by going through that process of what's the situation, how does it trigger me? What does it play out in my behavior? How does it affect my leadership? But also how did it affect my team? So now I'm actually seeing that ripple effect, and it's calling me to be getting a little bit out of outside of ourselves to say, how do I actually read that of my team? You know, because again, going back to that thing we judge others by their intentions, we don't know what those intentions are until we've been curious enough to ask or given a safe enough situation for people to speak freely about that. And they're uncomfortable conversations to have, super important ones. But those reflection questions then lay up into simple what are five things I can do just to help myself manage, keep myself calm, but a self-regulation. But also, what else could I do to prevent further damage or harm from happening from those around me? So it can have twofold. A super useful one, and we like to think that our newest staff member, our kids in our school, in our RIZI homes, right up to our CEO, have those simple safety plan strategies. They're really mindful about that self-awareness to self-management piece.

SPEAKER_03 16:09

So, one thing that we found about this podcast and the topics and the guests that we've had on is we have this habit of going really deep really fast. I think we asked one question and we've covered so much already. Everything from the intention that somebody has in their actions, their awareness, their self-reflection. You've covered that there's even loss in that and potentially discord and some uncomfortableness. And out of all of your experiences, for both of you, you're going out and you're doing this work day in, day out. And Cam, you said you think you've got the best job in the world, going out and working with other people, trying to create these spaces of safety and working with people on their emotional intelligence. What's the hardest part of that? Because I can't help but listen to this and go, Well, that's a lot I've got to do. I've got to think about my intentions, I've got to self-reflect, I've got to be self-aware, I've got to think about how I behave impacts others, I've got to ask them for feedback and this kind of feedback loop and have some maybe some uncomfortable conversations and maybe ask some questions that are uncomfortable for me to ask. When you're doing this with people, where do the challenges arise?

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Yeah, you're right. It's maybe like talking about emotional intelligence, it's easy to Yeah, let's do that. But it takes some heavy lifting. I think the challenge sits in exactly what you mentioned, which is those uncomfortable conversations. We can potentially do the work on our self-awareness and our self-management and to a degree do that in isolation, perhaps, or it's a more reflective exercise. But then the second part, and this arises from the work of Daniel Goldman, originated so many of these ideas around emotional intelligence, but we then need to extrapolate that out to kind of social awareness, so accurately observing other people and relationship management. And it's in that relationship management piece that we're needing to have uncomfortable conversations, potentially around this kind of leader-follower nexus. Because I think the risk sometimes with emotional intelligent leadership is that we think only about our own traits and what we bring to the table and understanding ourselves better. And that's the start. But then we're never in a leadership relationship by ourselves. It's always in relation to a follower who is going to have their own set of responses and their own set of needs and ways that they're going to receive information. I think the hard part is in having those uncomfortable conversations about how each other's behavior is being perceived or experienced by the other. And I think certainly what we hear from organizations of all shapes and sizes is that for every leader or manager, it's having the skill to have those difficult conversations about how effective the work and relationship is that is the real rub point. So that's when the rubber hits the road.

SPEAKER_03 19:15

Yeah. Is the term itself, emotionally intelligent leadership? Is it almost a bit of a misnomer when I'm a misalignment with meaning? I can't help but hear emotionally intelligent leadership and immediately think of the leader, and I immediately think of the individual person and their individual traits rather than you use the perfect expression a second ago, Cam, it's a relationship. You're not a leader without a relationship. Is it almost more emotionally intelligent relationships?

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Yeah, I wouldn't disagree. Yeah, you're right. The lens that we often bring to it is that I'm a leader. What sort of leader am I? We reflect on our traits. But leadership is actually comprised of our own leadership traits and qualities. But then equally, the follow up. And who are we leading? And what sort of leader do I need to be for this particular individual in my team? And I think that takes emotional intelligence. I think if you've got children, you understand that there are broad principles of parenting, but you also tailor your parenting to the person, the young person or the child that you're parenting. And it's a little bit the same in our teams that we need then the emotional intelligence to understand the sort of leader that person needs to thrive. But then the third component is around the situation. What's going on for our organization right now? Well, what does this task require? What sort of environment are we in, culturally, fiscally, whatever it might be? And so emotionally intelligent leadership is about, to your point, Chris, around relationships. How do we relate to followers, the situation in a way that is actually going to get the outcomes that are required for that individual for that moment? And that requires flexibility of the leader, not just to have one playbook, one style of leadership that they apply, because it's not always going to work in every situation. So right now, our kind of throwaway line of oh, emotional intelligent leadership, let's nod, it's got more complex, right? Adaptability and reflection are key.

SPEAKER_03 21:22

So that's it, it's actually quite dynamic and complex and contextual and very evolving, I imagine, because in each situation with each person, it's going to be completely different. But almost how you need to show up for one colleague in one particular context might be quite different for how you need to show up for another colleague in another context.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Yeah. And I think that's the movement in leadership. Is it we when we talk about that modern agile leader, the one that can be aware and respond? It can flex around from being levels of supportiveness, also directing and come into different roles across that. It's Herring Cam and talks about the complexities of leadership. It is the master class of lots of skills all at once. And we often assume that if you think about Chris, I know you've come from an education background as well. You get some amazing teachers that you assume are going to transfer into great leaders within the school. It's often not the case. Let's imagine in McKillop Family Services, for example, we can have some amazing youth workers sitting working on that residential care floor that just by the nature of the fact that they've been able to keep resilient in the work and show amazing connection with the young people, they find themselves in supervisor and coordinator roles. And that's a whole different space. That ability to be agile. And all of a sudden, I guess for me as a practice lead, some of the things that we often find ourselves in terms of leaders asking me questions, one of the tools or the ways, the perspectives I always try and encourage people to look on is what we call the self-framework. Yeah. And it's an acronym of just allowing a trauma-informed perspective to happen. And the self, just to walk you through it relatively quickly, but it unpacks conversations. And this might be a conversation that you and I might be having around a conflict that we are trying to address within our team, for example. And we're going to bring together this conversation where we know there's going to be people that are affected by it. So they're going to be walking with their armor up, a little bit prickly. And maybe it's the time where there's just that there's that hesitation to be there, et cetera. But we know that we've been stuck on this for a while. For example, in that situation, and this is why it's good for leaders, because number one, I think it allows the opportunities for people to be heard, no matter what it is. And it's getting away from assumptions. So to invite the conversation when we talk about safety, it can be anything that getting clarity about anything that is not safe for people. And that could be physical safety or social, just the way that social groups are working, the psychological safety, the things where things around maybe trust. Can I be trusted to feel that my opinion counts in this group? Because when there's psychological safety, that's a trust issue. Equally, the fourth domain is often talked about the ethical or moral safety, and then think about cultural safety. So any one of those, getting clarity around safety is important. But then we can open up conversations about what are the feelings around the room. And this is where just a bit of truth telling and just allowing people there where it's hopefully, and this is like the craft, I think, of the leadership, where it's safe for people to feel vulnerable. And not that any one person's feelings counts more than others, but often it's again about getting a range of those that might be across the room. And not only saying what you're seeing or you're feeling, but also what you're observing and maybe some of those other emotions. Yeah. When I mentioned the loss piece about change before, this is often the one that people really struggle with because making change does hurt. And so sometimes it can be loss that we need to let go, something we need to let go of, something that we were working with in this great way or had a great program, but it's not working for us anymore. And so therefore we need to let go of that. And that's that's going to be a legacy piece. People are connected to it. So how do we acknowledge, honor that piece of letting go? How do we do that as a leader where we know we're directing towards change, we're leading towards change, but people are part of that process and they need that acknowledgement piece. Yeah. And then inviting conversations around future. And that's where it's super important for leaders to balance. When we talk about emotionally intelligent leadership, yep, show up for your staff, be emotionally available, allow that safety for vulnerability, but you've got some structure without that. If we don't have the structure around that emotional, emotional piece, it can just turn into just everything just falling through our hands and we're just stuck about juggling reactions and emotions. We speak to them, we acknowledge them, we think about change piece, but then it's really important that we frame up some actions that are actually going to carry us out of that. And we become a little bit accountable and responsible for that. And it's not just the leaders, the leaders are actually trying to invite people to be empowered and like that collective responsibility out of it. But balancing reflection and emotion to action and future, that's I think the play. And the timing of that, there's no science to it. You've got to have a leader that is constantly listening and then knowing or even trialing. Sometimes, are we going now? No, we're going to stay a bit longer, but now we're going. So that's where that sense of moving into that higher level of kind of supportive drive and directing towards future.

SPEAKER_03 27:06

There's so much in that ritual, and I think there's a couple of key takeaways in there for me. Around we've mentioned safety a couple of times. An emotionally intelligent leader creates a place of safety for everyone and a place where we can talk about feelings and emotions, but like you said, in a structured way. I've definitely been to some of those sessions before where a leader's tried to run one where we all talk about how we're feeling, and it just becomes a bit of a negative spiral where everyone just continues to complain about all the things that they're not happy with, and then there's no resolution and there's no kind of actions. And so I think the other key things you mentioned there was about the future and the actions and the structure for that. So are they then some of the key things about being an emotionally intelligent leader is not only are you able to create those spaces of safety where we can talk about feelings, but you do it in a really structured way, and then you structure it towards actions and future actions in a supportive way. So it's not just understanding all of this stuff and the why, it's actually how you do that and how you do that effectively.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Absolutely. And that's why we use that phrase trauma-informed or trauma-responsive. By the nature, it defines that we're actually going to be informed into some future, into a response, into some action. But we sit okay with speaking about things that aren't quite safe. And we're comfortable with practice being uncomfortable speaking about that. And that is part of a developing a literacy, a culture, if you like, of the way that we communicate and the ability to constantly probably reposition ourselves as leaders about how we sit with power. So we're sharing that conversation rather than almost forcing it out of each other. A lot of deep listening involved in that one, eh? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Richard, it reminds me of some material that Brene Brown talks about to make this really practical in terms of what are three things that we can actually do to begin to role model emotional intelligence as leaders. And she talks about these three, and they're contained within what you've just shared. One around being vulnerable, first and foremost, as a leader, appropriately vulnerable at the right time with the right people, but certainly being willing to engage in conversations, demonstrating I don't have all the answers or I can't see the issue clearly right now. This is an area that is outside of my previous experience. So role modeling that, seeking input from other people because we don't have all the answers. And secondly, I think you were touching on this as well, is that curiosity of asking open-ended questions. So being prepared to be vulnerable. I don't have all the answers as a leader. I'm going to remain curious and ask all those open-ended questions. And thirdly, demonstrating that empathy of deep listening. I always think of Eleanor Roosevelt and a quote that she rolled out at one point, which was something to the effect of lead yourself with your head and lead others with your heart. Going into those conversations, really wanting to deeply understand what's going on for people and engaging your heart to then apply some clear actions and some good outcomes to the conversation. But I think there are three practical things that perhaps someone who's listening might say, What can I do? Be vulnerable, be curious, and practice empathy.

SPEAKER_03 30:31

I immediately just want to ask you, how do you do that? What are the steps? If I wanted to be vulnerable, how do I do that? If I'm not sure, well, where do I even start with that? Or I think, all right, I'm gonna go and tell everyone what's happening in my family life at morning tea tomorrow. What does that look like? How do I actually take some steps to be more vulnerable?

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because it takes again, Brene Brown quote, I think, but it takes a lot of self-trust in some ways to be vulnerable. And it takes vulnerability also to build trust. So they're always hand in hand. And that discomfort before that moment where you go, I feel like I need to be vulnerable, but I'm not confident enough to do it or not brave enough to do it, even though the invitation we're in a meeting and the invitation's there, and that's where it does start with self and being able to, I think ultimately, particularly again as us as leaders, the ability to work through that discomfort place, self-aware for towards better self-management, to allow myself to move into that chain space, to trust and know that we talk about sometimes that vulnerability is the new strength in leadership. Yeah. Again, making that link between it's the step from self-awareness to self-management that has to happen first before then we can start thinking about the equal part about that from our teams, where we go, team awareness. How do I accurately read my team so I can accurate or successfully help support manage my team? It always starts with ourselves. But to find little opportunities in meetings, I know within sanctuary organizations, even just practicing, we practice each morning, usually just a community meeting, which is a quick check-in. How are you feeling today? What's your goal? Who can you ask for help? And it's not a time to unpack, it's not a therapy piece, it's just straightforward, in some ways, our own personal self-awareness point daily. And through that time, we like to think that we'd slowly extend our range of what it feels to be comfortable in the way that we share our language in a workspace. Yeah. So finding small, appropriate, and ideally culturally safe ways of setting that up is the key.

SPEAKER_03 32:54

And Richard, you've just mentioned about culturally safe. For some people who might be listening to this, what do we mean when we say that?

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Ultimately, just all of us have our own unconscious bias when we think about what culture we come from. Everybody comes from a culture, but how that culture informed it, of course, it can be our ethnicity, if you like. It can be everything from our culture of our family, what schools we went to, what informed us through our sports clubs or through media and radio or whatever. Just everything that's is informed our space. So this idea about unconscious bias is asking us to be aware of all the complex ways that we've been and now we'll sit with an owner when we front up and sit into a team meeting. But I know everyone else does as well. Our levels of cultural safety, if you like, all be very different. So we just don't assume anything. There's no sort of one way to do this. So that's getting away from that cultural dominance piece. We're just going gently, humbly, and putting it out there. Curiosity also works. Is this working? Sometimes as leaders, we have to take a few risks and say, hey, look, this is how we're going to do it, but also being aware that it can be responsive to that. Often across Sanctuary, a lot of the success piece where you can keep to what when we talk about being true to being trauma-informed practice, we're true to that. But then we're just making small changes that really sit within the right context of all our different teams, of our cultural parts of about that. So it actually lands and it feels like we've got some ownership in that.

SPEAKER_03 34:37

And Cam, I'm gonna come to you for this thought as well. This being vulnerable, creating these safe species, our self-awareness and self-reflection, but also understanding what's happening for other people, it sounds like it could be very easy to push hard and quickly to change. It sounds like we could also share a lot and try to be very empathetic and vulnerable. Does that risk maybe a fatigue or a burnout? Or we hear a lot more often these days about compassion fatigue and things like that. And again, maybe not even stopping to think about what they mean, but is there a possibility there that we can almost run too fast into this and trying to actually put feet in front of the other before we're ready?

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Yes, is the short answer, and to pick up on the word you use trust and safety are key. So it would be really ill-advised, I think, to and not a great experience for a team if you've got a manager who's or a leader who's kind of like, oh, I'm gonna demonstrate emotional intelligence. That possibly is a bit of a flag that maybe you might need to actually work on your emotional intelligence and reading the room. But I think it's the wisdom would say, look, if you want to be a more vulnerable leader, start with a small group of people who have your trust and you have their trust to just have some of those conversations with. And I think back on a conversation I had with a leader, a CEO recently, who was sharing with me an aspect of the job that they just felt ill-equipped for when they started and felt exposed in some ways. And they figured out who in their inner circle they developed the trust. And then they asked those people in that inner circle to give them feedback in real time when they were engaged in that activity that they felt was perhaps kind of their Achilles heel. Immediately after that activity, that group would huddle together and they'd provide real-time feedback. You did this really well. That felt awkward. Here's what we'd suggest next time. So that is real vulnerability from someone at the head of an organization who would be very tempted to at all times demonstrate that they've got the answer and they're great at every part of their PD. No one's great at every single part of their PD. I'd be good, but they're not always going to smash it out of the park. I provide that as an example of that. That's a really easy first step that that I observed a leader to take to role model vulnerability, to be curious about what I can learn from this. So that's the common sense that I think needs to be applied to this conversation about emotional intelligence, because yeah, it's not just a free-for-all to talk about what happened when you tried to stack the dishwasher last night.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

For example, you know, like Chris, we've got an agenda. This is this is this is a meeting and a strategic plan. Like this.

SPEAKER_03 37:46

I'm literally I'm just imagining someone having gone to a day's training on emotionally intelligent leadership and then walking into a strategy meeting and being like, okay, today everybody's going to share something and be very vulnerable and share something personal because I've been told that's what I need to do to be an emotionally intelligent leader. Yeah. I'll share a story from home about a raccoon. I think that's such a good point, Cam, isn't it? It's about starting small and doing it in a way that is safe and full of trust. I imagine in that scenario, that was really beneficial for both the CEO but also the other people in that circle as well. I imagine they felt even more trust in that CEO because the CEO was vulnerable with them and they were like, okay, we're building a relationship here. This person is showing me that they don't know everything and they want support. And rather than standing there saying, Yeah, I know everything, I'm the CEO, I know what I'm doing. So I imagine it worked in many different ways.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

Absolutely. And I think appropriate vulnerability, right? Appropriate being the key, but I think that's an attractive quality in a leader because, again, that's what's creating the safety to say this person's willing to admit that they do not have all the answers. And so therefore, they're going to actually engage people who have different perspectives, and we're going to get a better outcome. And that provides me with a sense of safety because it's foolish to think that one person is somehow going to be able to have insight into every need that an organization has done well and appropriately with the right people. It creates the safety, I think, that people need in their workplaces and in their relationships. So that's why I say in the war on talent, if you can get an emotionally intelligent leader, don't worry about the deficits. Like that person will actually pursue feedback on how to build strength in those areas of weakness, and you'll have a higher functioning team and a healthier organization.

SPEAKER_03 39:44

I've definitely had leaders that have said things in the past to me like you can teach process, you can teach procedures and policies. It's very hard to teach some of those qualities and skills that will actually serve somewhat well in any. Position where they're working with other people. It's hard to teach that stuff sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

Yeah, we can always grow and adapt. And so you can grow in empathy, you can grow in self-awareness and in correctly reading the emotions of other people for sure. But if you've got a leader who's got a lot of that stuff sorted already, you're going to move a lot quicker. And it's amazing how quickly people make an assessment of leadership to say, I think this person's good. I feel safe. What is that about? They don't actually know how brilliantly they're doing it. They're just going, I think often they're articulating this person's emotionally intelligent, and I feel safe that they're going to be able to lead this team, this organization, lead me in a way that is going to get the best out of me and also bring other people in with their perspective and the answers because they're not coming to demonstrate the fact that they're a superhero. They're coming to equip and build capacity in the team to get to where we need to go.

SPEAKER_03 41:09

Is this something that you really can you immediately respond to if it's something you can grow? Often this is something we've got to do ourselves. That self-reflection, self-awareness piece. But can you nurture it in other people? Can you maybe not teach it? But is there a way to nurture it?

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Richard looking down thoughtfully, but he's probably pretty well placed to answer this too. That's something as simple as just running reflective practice exercises of taking the time to reflect on a situation and what happened and what we learned from that and how we might like to be different the next time that comes around to get a different outcome. That's a really simple way to foster emotional intelligence. That's the vulnerability, curiosity, empathy piece. So there is a lot we can do. But Richard, I feel like this is your small point as well.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

I can't help but not think about where sanctuary is useful in this in terms of what can foster or promote it. And the the model breaks down into how trauma, you how theory, knowledge helps. Just understanding some simple psychology, let's say, and what we're talking about here, things like even our attachment style, understanding our personality and our human behavior, but also things like parallel process and how things can become contagious within groups. So understanding knowledge, then we can also think about the stuff that guides our commitment to things. So just having that as a basis and an agreed basis within our teams. I've touched base on that self-framework, the safety, emotion, loss, and future, but it is a ripper to have. And so when Cam's talking about reflective conversations, we can put that into a supervision situation. We can do it to drive the way that we'd even design a team meeting just to ensure that we cover some bases or the way that we reflect on an achievement, or the way that's going to set us up for something like a high conflict situation. So having some structures is super useful. And then some practical tools. And again, I've spoken about community meetings, but within the sanctuary space, a lot of it is all about, in some ways, coming back to that better self-awareness for better self-management that leads to better or more accurate team awareness for better team management, which then starts going, this makes ourselves a little bit safer. That interchange between a leader and I think about if I boil it right back down, like the importance of that leader to be that consistent and reliable and predictable. So yeah, as that safe place to come to. That doesn't mean that they don't change, but they can be consistent in the way that they will be responsive, that you will be heard, and there will be some action coming from that. And that reminds me of when I talked about attachment theory before, it's quite child developments process where we will have staff that will come and need that, but then leaders that need to promote that empowerment for autonomy and freedom and trust, get out there, explore, get to that point of boundary or your risk point, and know that when you come back and need that, whether it be that supportive space or coaching space or even some straight direction, I can, as a leader, can be there for you in that space. So that breathing, that idea about you sometimes we refer to as serve and return, but yeah, that relationship between things is dynamic.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

And in the work that you're doing, ritual with Sanctuary, and you're doing that across our own organization and you're doing that out with other organizations, a huge part of that, it sounds like is taking it from the abstract to the concrete. It is building the knowledge, the understanding, but then actually also providing concrete structures and processes and strategies to build it and doctorate with all the others around you as well.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

Yeah, absolutely. And again, when it starts getting really practical, that's when like when we think about where we learn the most is in that social learning. And we start sharing stories, we're starting practicing stuff that we go, oh yeah, this I can see how this is useful, but I can see it on the ground. We're not just going off and reading about in a book or watching a video, yeah. That it's live. But that is it's that's the rub, though, that's the point that we're all trying to get it accessible, practical, in reality, crucial.

SPEAKER_03 45:49

And just as we're approaching the end of this episode, what would be your top tips for someone? So if there's someone listening to this and they think, okay, I think I need to explore this a bit more. I think I need to think about perhaps my own emotional intelligence and my own leadership and maybe the people and the team around me as well. What would be your suggestions? And Cam, I might come to you first.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

We talked about sort of these four areas of self-awareness, self-management, other or social awareness and relationship management. So it depends on where people feel they're at in that journey of look, I keep getting hijacked by my own responses and emotions through to no, I've got that under control, but do you I really don't know what my team's thinking. There's a range of entry points, but I think for someone right at the beginning who's saying, okay, I think I understand a little more about emotional intelligence, probably the first practical thing you could do is actually think about moments where you've been under stress or duress and you have led or behaved or responded in ways that have actually been counterproductive to yourself or your team if you're honest with yourself. And I think just do the work of going, okay, what was going on for me? What was the situation that kind of led me to behave like that? What is it about my previous experience potentially, or some of the areas where I'm a bit blind or I've got deficits that led me to do that? And just actually do some of the work to say, to link it back to Richard's comments earlier about a safety plan. That's a really nice baseline. Okay, I can just put some things in place to know next time I'm under stress and I'm likely to get hijacked by whatever it is, being criticized or being called out in a meeting, whatever that scenario is, I'm actually going to regulate my emotions and I'm gonna be the best version of myself. And that's just the first step to understanding and managing your emotions before you even get to then thinking about others and the impact thereof. So that would probably be a really practical and I think achievable first action. And ritual.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Look, I think my I'm gonna go for three top three, but they'll be brief. Number one, I reckon if you want a more emotionally regulated workspace, start with yourself. Do the work, and that's ongoing. I think two is to just create a safe place for people to come and chat, um, be real. And there's something about the third one there that the priority is about finding the resolve in things, the ability to recover, the ability to move through, the ability to transform. We're human, we're imperfect. And so an emotionally intelligent leader gets that and will support working through that.

SPEAKER_03 48:45

What we like to do in this podcast is also round out with just one key takeaway. And my one key takeaway is definitely that I think I need to go away and think about and do some self-reflection on my own leadership and emotional intelligence. I think that this has been a really productive conversation to just go, there's a lot in this, and it is a journey, and even if we've made steps on that journey, there's many more still on that path in front of us, and there's still steps that we can take, and there's still things that we can think about. So, my key takeaway is actually to say thank you. I've really appreciated personally listening to this. But for both of you, Cam, Rachel, if you had one key takeaway, one final kind of thought to round out this on emotionally intelligent leadership, what would it be? And I'll hand that to either of you, whoever wants to go in first.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

I'm gonna go first because Cam will round it off with something much more profound, I feel. But I look, I'm similar to you. My feeling that I've had hearing all of us speak in some ways, is that I don't know it all. And staying open to that, but also having the ability to admit that isn't it's not admitting to my ignorance, for example. It's actually, I feel like it's just about me constantly just trying to stay open to that humility piece around it. So even though I may have perceived power, ultimately I'm just a person trying to do my best. And that's the humility part about it. Cam?

SPEAKER_02 50:29

That was profound, Richard.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

Oh, was it?

SPEAKER_02 50:32

Yeah, you're a nice bookend. Oh, I'm sure. Oh, look, I think the workplace is changing rapidly. I think it has changed already. And the days of command and control, leadership, and people just being completely infallible, long gone. And the research that we see coming through from the generations following are that people want authentic leaders. They want to be coached, they want frequent real-time feedback, not a once yearly performance review. And all of that speaks to traits and qualities that you'd find in an emotionally intelligent leader: transparency, honesty, accountability. And so all of that to say that emotional intelligence in a leader is not the nice to have, I don't think, for the future. I think it's essential for effective leadership. And it is that trait of emotional intelligence in leadership teams that is going to cause organizations to attract and retain people and also directly influence their productivity, whether that be manufacturing an item or dealing with humans on their worst days. The skills that those leaders need, I think, are the same. And people and workplaces need to adapt because it's no longer an opt-in, it's a non-negotiable, it is the currency for leadership moving forward.

SPEAKER_03 52:04

Cameron Burgess and Richard Bullock, thank you so much for your time, your sharing, your wisdom, your insights, and the conversation today. Thank you for being here with us. And hope you have a wonderful rest of your day.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

Thanks, Chris. It's been amazing. Pleasure.

SPEAKER_03 52:25

Good luck after dinner tonight.

SPEAKER_02 52:27

Thank you.