That’s TMI: The Meaningful Insights Podcast
That’s TMI: The Meaningful Insights Podcast delves into the heart of human-centred and caring professions, sharing honest, practical stories from education, community services, family services, social work, and many other fields focused on people and relationships. Featuring the voices of practitioners, leaders, researchers, carers, young people, and sector experts, it offers insights, reflections, and ideas for anyone committed to helping children, young people, families, and communities flourish.
That’s TMI: The Meaningful Insights Podcast
Backpack Full of Dreams, with Simangaliso Nyoni
Cultural Practice Lead Simangaliso Nyoni joins the hosts to talk about cultural responsiveness in human-centred work. Beginning with an Acknowledgement of Country, the conversation explores why language matters, how to decolonise documentation and practice, and the discipline of deep listening. Simangaliso shares her journey from Zimbabwe to Australia at 19, a backpack-full-of-dreams story of courage, representation, and leadership responsibility. A practical takeaway: shift from calling out to calling in, so change lasts beyond the room.
Guest: Simangaliso Nyoni, Cultural Practice Lead, MacKillop Family Services
Produced by: The MacKillop Institute
If themes in this episode affect you, support is available in Australia: Griefline 1300 845 745, Beyond Blue 1300 22 4636, Lifeline 13 11 14.
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That's TMI, the Meaningful Insights podcast, delving into the heart of human-centered professions.
Speaker 2:That's TMI is recorded on the lands of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to all the traditional custodians of the lands on which you are joining from today. Welcome back. Thank you for joining us for this next installment of that's TMI. You are rejoined by your hosts, chris Smita and Justin, and a special guest today, but I'm going to hand over to Smita to let her introduce our guest as we explore the topic of cultural considerations today.
Speaker 1:I'm really excited about today's guest. We are joined by Samangaliso Nyoni, a cultural practice lead at MacKillop Family Services. Samangaliso, you have such an interesting background and you do such incredible work at MacKillop Family Services. First of all, start off with a little bit about yourself. Tell us a little bit about you and a little bit about what you do.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. So a beautiful introduction. By the way, a little bit about me. I am a coffee lover as well. Addicted to coffee. That's a good thing to be addicted to. So I have my long black in the morning, religiously have my long black, and I'm a runner. I love running. I've done a marathon.
Speaker 1:You're on your own there in this crowd, simone Aliso, that's definitely a unique skill.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like there's even a bigger story for why I started running, but honestly, it's been one of the best things that I've taken, but in terms of my role. So I actually walked into the doors of Makila Family Services in a very different role, as a principal practitioner and a little bit about how. Then I've landed into the cultural practice lead space. We'll talk a little bit more about it, but my role is a cultural practice. Lead is a cultural practice. My main focus is on supporting multicultural communities as well, in terms of organizationally and international role as well, looking at our culturally responsive practices, as it is everyone's responsibility to be culturally responsive. There are a few parts about my role. I can talk all day about it, but it's actually a very fulfilling role and I feel very privileged to be a part of that, a part of a one-woman's team. Why is that term so gendered One-woman's team at the moment? But that's actually not true. I've got a whole lot of tribe in terms of the community that we have at Makilop.
Speaker 2:I love that, simangaliso, and you immediately make me think about language and how important our use of language is. You were about to almost default reflexive action there, say, or one man and job, and there's so many things like that that I've become very aware of since working here. Things like you know to take a shot at something, to take a stab in the dark, like there's all these expressions that actually, when you think about them, you know to take a shot at something, to take a stab in the dark, like there's all these expressions that actually, when you think about them, you go hold on, where did that come from?
Speaker 1:That's really dark.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like if you unpack some of these expressions, why do we have them, why do we use them, and so on that thread, how does language play into cultural considerations?
Speaker 3:Language is huge because I always say to people that I do a lot of cultural consults right, and it's so interesting to me. One of the things or the key themes that come up a lot is how, when people are speaking about the people that they support and I'm also very mindful of language to call people clients or call people young people, call people families, I always say your starting point has to be what does that person want to be called? Right, we have a language that we have in our system for different reasons, for documentation and stuff. But I think one of the things that I've had to sharpen a lot in my role was this deep listening and really tracking and being attuned to what people are saying to me more than what they're asking. What are you actually saying to me? And I've noticed that in our language. That's when you can see why people come up with the practices that they do come up with because they've made judgments. There's a lot of unconscious bias and well-meaning intention sometimes that actually doesn't, is not congruent with what maybe a family or young person might be wanting, support or think, is a priority as well. So I think language unless you make an intentional commitment to be kind of really mindful of why do I use that language, where did it come from and who does it serve? Because language serves certain people, right, it serves me when I type in my documentation and I feel so good about the fact that I put together a case note on our system and it reads so well. But if a family had to come five years later and look at that documentation, does it serve them and their story? And if the answer is no, then I have to rewrite that case note, don't I? So I think language plays a huge part because, again, we can't ignore the fact that systemically, there's still so many things that haven't been decolonized. You know, we're not even close to that. So unless we actually start, I think that decolonizing process has to start from your mind and it starts for me.
Speaker 3:I think it might look different to someone who was born in Australia. I wasn't born in Australia but I, you know, I'm a descendant of people that did experience colonization, because Zimbabwe, where I'm from, is a former British colony, right, and there were things that my parents or my grandparents told me even prior to me coming to Australia that I cringe at now, but you could see that was a legacy of the history that they'd experienced. Because one thing that I was told, I think, when I was coming to Australia was like go out there, go and do well, we're really proud of you. And then there was an emphasis of around but be very mindful. To Australia was like go out there, go and do well, we're really proud of you.
Speaker 3:But and then there was an emphasis of around but be very mindful that you don't upset white people. You know you look at them in the eye, because white people, if you don't look them in the eye, they will think that you're not being truthful and I can see that those were messages for them wanting me to survive, right. But now I look back and I'm like but there was also a part of you, without you realizing that you're saying culturally, what we do with not looking at people in the eyes. You're saying that's not okay. Negate that and dismiss that. So long long answer to the question that he asked. It's just it opens a whole kind of worms around how we actually move around the world or we move in spaces and language is.
Speaker 2:Language is key it's interesting how the emphasis was on adapting to other perceived culture rather than, for example, in australia, as perhaps potentially being more aware of some of those cultural nuances, beliefs, values, differences. I think here in this room we all know that there are people that don't look you in the eye for a whole range of reasons, and it doesn't mean that it's dishonesty or disrespect or you know anything like that. It can be simply that that is just what feels natural to them. It could be cultural, it could be a whole range of reasons, right?
Speaker 3:It could be social anxiety, it could be anything, you're right.
Speaker 4:So, manali. So I wonder too, like having experienced you in the workplace. You're often kind of looked to to be a cultural guide by people in the room. But I've always noticed that you garner respect in those spaces and I think it's because you have this beautiful warmth about you. You're welcoming, but at the same time you're a fierce advocate. And I just wonder how filling that space is for you. Has that always come naturally to you, or is that something that you've had to kind of learn how to enter those spaces?
Speaker 3:wow, that's very beautiful reflection. My head just went bigger. I'm like say that again. No, I'm like say that again. No, I'm kidding.
Speaker 3:I, to be honest, I think a lot of it has had to do with kind of my lived experience and how I was raised. I always share this story and with kind of a lot of gratitude that I was raised by my grandparents, my grandfather. My grandmother passed away when I was younger and I think sometimes I have this thing where I feel like when I speak sometimes I can hear his legacy in my voice. And I mentioned him as kind of a pivotal person in terms of shaping who I am, because he was one of 30 something children born in a polygamy family. His dad had three wives but as he was growing up he had to then pave the way and raise his other half-siblings and stuff like that. But I watched my grandfather have the most difficult conversations when I was young, those conversations that you think I want F to swallow me. But what was interesting to me was he was so always intentional about exposing me to those conversations even though I was young, and I didn't particularly understand it when I was younger. These are adult conversations. I shouldn't even be privy to this conversation, but I think it was part of his legacy to me that treat people with kindness and warmth, always have a conversation with someone and leaving them feeling more fulfilled than like feeling like you've taken something away from them and you've depleted them, even if you don't necessarily agree with them.
Speaker 3:But also speak with conviction. If you believe something really to be quite true, speak with conviction right, and don't be apologetic for that. But also ensure that you actually leave room for growth. Just because you know a couple of things doesn't mean you know everything. So always leave room for learning, and I think for me, that's partly how I want to be in spaces and that's how I want to be received, and I think that's what kind of carries me. Not always I have times where I've gone. Where did that come from? I think I could have put that through a filter of kindness a bit before it came up. I just it's just, it's just come out, and I'm also not afraid to apologize and I'm not afraid to take accountability as well. So I have often gone back to conversations and gone. You know what? I could have probably had that conversation with you outside of an audience, and then I do apologise and I do commit to doing better.
Speaker 1:And can I ask you, Samanga-Lisa, I think part of that is finding your voice and I can only imagine that, moving to Australia, that that in itself was a journey and a process. It can shift over time and it can look different in different spaces. Is there anything that you can share from your journey that really that you think was pivotal in how you've kind of shaped and found your voice over time?
Speaker 3:I love that question. I think there are quite a number of things I think that potentially have been, you know, spaces where I think I've believed in myself because I think that's very important. That's really core, like how you see yourself as well. Often then kind of gets mirrored to you right, how you see yourself. So when I came to Australia, I was 19. I knew no one in Australia.
Speaker 3:I remember getting off a telemarine and just going crap. You know, I had a backpack right and I had a backpack. Literally my backpack was full of dreams and passion and the only thing that I'd actually say to people back home was I'm going to Australia, I'm going to make something out of myself. I't know how it looks like, and then I would map out like a vision board of what a way I wanted to be like. I would map it out in like a five year I want. In five years I want to be this and in five years I want to. And every time I would kind of hit a milestone for me was confirmation again that it wasn't the sacrifices of my family were not in vain and it was huge, because when I left Zimbabwe the most important people believed in me but no one else did, like it was very interesting because I did extremely well in primary school, struggled in high school, literally struggled. I wouldn't even pass a single thing. And now what I understand of that is kind of multiple things, including the fact that, like I'm a person who can focus on one thing and do it really well. The minute you try and throw too many things at me, it's just my brain just work it just.
Speaker 3:And the way the system in Zimbabwe is built is primary school, four subjects. I would ace those. They double those subjects when you go into high school and I'm like how do people study for eight subjects? How do you do it? Eight, nine subjects, and because I wasn't doing well in high school, I would get a lot of kind of bad reports With really again going back to communication and language, and I think, especially when you're an educator, be mindful of what you write on your school reports. One of my reports that still pains my mom is a report when I was 13, where a teacher was because we used to clean our own classrooms in Zimbabwe. A teacher was like Smanga Lisa will only always be good at sweeping classes. That's the only thing that she's really good at and you know what? There's nothing wrong with sweeping classes like a clean house is next to godliness, so he can take that. But I think at that time it brought a lot of shame to my family because they didn't understand the you know the difference between how I was doing in primary school and how I was doing in high school. But that was the drive for me. I think I was like no, you don't know me Like I'm built for. You know bigger things. So when I did get my first degree, it was like it was a lie. He said I wouldn't be anything. And then when I got my first job, I'm like see, got my own money now.
Speaker 3:And then the advocacy part and and being fierce around it started, even when I first came to Australia. Then everything started to fall into place. But most importantly, I think for me it was being in spaces where I was helping and supporting others. It was being in spaces where people could say, okay, even people back home would see me. I post stuff of my achievements and people have a different opinion about that, just like oh, you want to show off and so I posted, because I know there's a girl child out there or there's someone in Zimbabwe. So okay, so you left Zimbabwe, no, and you went and made something of yourself, and I usually sometimes get that feedback and I think that's the driver for me. You know, you said I couldn't do it, but look at me now I almost want to sing, like sometimes. So those are the things of going. I managed to change the trajectory of my story, my story, where it started. I shouldn't be where I am. My partner.
Speaker 4:her parents immigrated from southern Italy and there's a photo that sits at Anna's father's house of them getting off the boat One suitcase, one kid in hand. Her mother was pregnant at the time, but that suitcase was all they had and I often look at that photo and will ask her dad about really the courage it took to take that step. And you had me wondering around. What would you say gave that courage to take that step, to go into the unknown with?
Speaker 4:this bag full of dreams, as you said. I wonder, yeah, what would be your take on that? Do you feel like it was a courageous decision, and what fueled that courage?
Speaker 3:When I look at a 19-year-old, like in this day and time, and I see them, I'm like I was so young but I thought I was an adult. I think what fueled me was I had no other option. So there were two options. I come here and I dive into the unknown and I believe that whatever I have in me is going to propel me to where I need to go. The other option was that I shrink and I withdraw and I am exactly some of the stories that were said about me. So those were the two options and I actually wasn't willing to do the other option of just, you know, proving that person right or proving some of my story. So I think what fueled it is this opportunity to rewrite my story.
Speaker 3:I have a lot of people that I went to high school with that haven't had the same opportunity. So I had an opportunity. I think ideally, everyone wants to stay in their country of origin if things are working right, but I had a different opportunity and I was like I'm going to miss this opportunity and I think that's one thing for me not missing opportunity in conversation, not missing an opportunity to say to someone look, that was amazing. Not missing an opportunity to say to someone that's really brave, not missing an opportunity to apologize or not missing an opportunity for a teachable moment in a conversation, because inside I'm like I can't say that so yeah, I missed opportunity, like I didn't want to miss an opportunity to do better for myself.
Speaker 1:And that, I suppose, takes my mind in a slightly kind of you know different trajectory. So I'm thinking about what opportunity looks like and how we even understand and conceptualize opportunity when perhaps often we see for our multicultural communities, unless there's representation, how do we even know what opportunity looks like? And one of the things that you mentioned in your story just then was how, by posting up some of the things that you're doing, that actually there are young people out there looking at you and kind of saying, oh, she's doing that. I could do that too.
Speaker 1:To share a little bit of my own story, I would say that there was a period, maybe five years ago, I was in a leadership role and a young woman, kind of, as I was leaving that role, wrote me a card and she referred to me as a leader of colour. She was a young woman of colour and she was talking about how inspiring it was to have seen a leader of colour. That was the first time I'd ever even thought of myself as a leader of colour. I had never actually had that kind of thought of myself, but to see it kind of reflected through someone else's eyes and then suddenly think, oh, there's a lot of responsibility that kind of comes with this. What's your thoughts when we're thinking about cultural considerations, the importance of representation, and do you feel weight with the responsibility of your role?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I do. The reason why I'm hesitating is because of the power of what was written in your card. To have someone saying a leader of color and you're walking around and embodying that and not even knowing, but to have that said back to you, it's so amazing and I think that then speaks volumes of you and how you show up in spaces, right, because I think that's really important for us. It's not about what comes out of our mouth, it's about whether that's actually aligned with how we move around the world and how we treat people and how we represent ourselves. In terms of going back to your question, I do feel a lot of weight because I think I would take it back to the comment that I made first around kind of really decluttering and decolonizing my mind. It's really important to me to do the work. There's a book out there around doing the work. It's really important for me to do the work, the internal work as well, because my greatest fear is that if I don't do that in my oh, I'm taking on this role and I'm going to do things a bit better that I might be harming people, because I'm one voice and I'm taking on this role and I'm going to do things a bit better, that I might be harming people, because I'm one voice, and I'm one voice with the experiences that I've had, but with also some privilege that I've had, like I'm now, as a black African woman, in a leadership role, right. And I have to be mindful that sometimes I speak of things and I speak and say I look after multicultural communities, but I'm also speaking from a place of an educated woman who ends money every fortnight, you know, has choices in terms of traveling and educate, like and a whole lot of things right. So I have to be also mindful that in my kind of feeling like I'm representing communities, am I truly representing all of communities? And I'm very always try and be clear that I'm actually not a representative of all multicultural communities. But having say that I can do that without also dismissing that it's taken me strides and steps to get here.
Speaker 3:I wasn't. I didn't show up in a leadership role. I didn't show up educated. I didn't show up in, I had to work for that.
Speaker 3:So when another person looks at me, I want them to go how did he do it? And I and my first response would be you can do it, before I even tell them the formula right. My starting point is belief that they can do it as well. So there is a lot of weight, and particularly in this role that I'm in, because it didn't exist before I started at my club, the cultural practice lead a role in terms of a focus for multicultural communities, but it also speaks volumes of the commitment of the organization to have created that role. But it's even worse because now, even after my time is done, someone's going to pick up documents and look at the footsteps and going, oh, so this is where she started, where was her heart at, where was her intentions at. And if people go, oh, maybe she could have done this a little bit better, or maybe she could have considered that, but you can see the echoing of her heart and intentions in it of being inclusive, then I've done my part. That's beautiful.
Speaker 4:I'm interested in that idea of when you spoke about having to do the work yourself, and as an Australian white, am I middle-aged?
Speaker 2:I don't want to say middle-aged, but you know middle-aged.
Speaker 1:Self-proclaimed middle-aged man.
Speaker 4:Male who wants to be as inclusive as possible, who is probably a people pleaser as well, but is becoming more and more aware of my own bias. I'm often kind of get stuck in this loop of I know what I want to be, what's the work I need to do to get there, and I'm wondering that's probably a really big question, oh gosh, yes, but I'm wondering, you know, even maybe starting with some common mistakes you see people make on that journey?
Speaker 3:Oh, if you do not have people in your life and your tribe that will lovingly call you out on things, therefore, you will have a lot of blind sides. I always say there's a lot of blind sides. I go am I doing this well? Am I kind? Am I? You know, I ask those questions and then I have moments where I would have, like my core group of friends going okay, are you, do you want just me to hold your hand right now, or do you want an honest of what I'm observing? And if, like, depending on how robust I am and like what kind of a day I have, I'll choose an option. And but also, just because that person is reflected back at me, I also have to put it through my sieve. Right, I have to go. Okay, I see where you're coming from, but does that actually resonate with what I think is happening?
Speaker 3:And I've had some reflections back where I haven't taken them on board, and an example of that is I had recently had someone get in touch with me. They had missed years of my life and they got in touch with me and their reflection back at me was that they didn't think I should be where I am. They think they're surprised that I'm just still where I am, because their whole opinion of me was that they thought I would have a. I'll be in New York, in an office in New York and doing better than what I'm doing. And it really put me down for quite some days, you know, and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm lagging behind, I need to run a bit, not run a marathon like run a marathon in my life and I was like, and then it took days and I think after the trigger and the emotional intensity of it went, I was like, actually, no, is this a fair reflection back at me, given this person has made such a chunk of my life and I'm really proud of where I am right. But I know that this is not where I'm going to stop.
Speaker 3:So the internal work looks like having you know your tribe, but it's actually also looks like, you know, being also open with your own self and that self-awareness, and but not in a harsh way, because there's a difference, right, I know that I used to have like a harsh inner critique of, oh, you messed that up and you should have. Now it's like that's information. Why do you think you did that? Let's unpack that for you, for yourself. Okay, are you going to do better next time? Yeah, I think the the inner work is ongoing as well, so it's an ongoing journey.
Speaker 2:We never fully get there thank you for sharing that story. I mean that must have been upsetting, yeah, like does it come back to what you were talking about earlier, about how we show up in spaces and the intentionality and warmth and leaving people more fulfilled than when you arrived? And so I can't help but wonder what was going through that person's mind when they sent you that message, because it doesn't sound like that was filled with warmth and intentionality and trying to contact you and leave you more fulfilled than when they arrived. It seems like perhaps their intentions were maybe not well aligned it to be honest, it was really hard.
Speaker 3:there were parts of that that I took because it wasn't even written, so this I had to listen to it over the phone, right, wow. So I think that was really harder and like so you kind of sit with that, but I think there were glimpses of their heart through that, of going I want bigger for you, but it just it came out really wrong. But also what it did, though, the gift that I gave to myself was that it highlighted I reframed it and it really highlighted that there were parts of me that still function from a deficit point, like the parts of me that I think I still don't trust myself enough, and that came through the having that conversation. So I actually don't regret having that conversation really with that person, and as much as it hurt me, I was like, oh, I can see the glimpses of me not thinking that I'm good enough. So that's the gift that I got from that conversation, and then the other things I chose to delete.
Speaker 4:You had me, through the last two responses, actually thinking about. For me, I feel like there's a message there about it's a willingness to yarn and to talk about it with that cultural humility of doing so in the knowledge that I'm going to learn when I get feedback.
Speaker 3:And then I have a question, like you've asked me questions, I have a question. And then I have a question, like you've asked me questions, I have a question what do you think stops people from having those hard conversations as well around cultural inclusivity? Because you get into, sometimes, spaces where I think it's easier for us to speak about every beautiful thing that we're doing here around cultural safety and cultural humility, and there's a lot of good that's happening safety and cultural humility, and there's a lot of good that's happening. But there's also a bit of kind of avoidance or discomfort with certain things and curious what your observations have been.
Speaker 4:Well, I can probably just speak for myself, but I think when I find myself in that space, it's probably avoidance, because I don't want to hurt anybody, rather than take the risk of being aware that I carry biases into the conversation. Rather than take a risk, sometimes I'm not feeling courageous enough and I go. I'm just going to avoid the conversation. That's just me, jeez.
Speaker 1:I think that's a really really hard question because I suppose puts me in a position of trying to look at it from both sides, because I obviously experience it. On the other side I see people, I suppose, pick and choose which conversations they want to be a part of and what they choose to remain silent on, and I've seen people kind of pick and choose the reflections that they'd like to have around, how they think they're doing or how the organization is doing or how the team is doing in this space, and it's always really interesting, I suppose, what continues to go unsaid. But then I completely see people with such beautiful intention and heart out there really trying their best to step into these spaces and lean in. And then there is, of course, as you've raised, justin, that anxiety and that fear.
Speaker 1:There's also, I think, a lot of stigma that surrounds this conversation. To be reflectful of yourself and to potentially come out with a result that maybe you have been casually racist, maybe not now, maybe at some point in the past, that's actually a really confronting thought and that's a reflection for everybody that's not just any culture and have that reflection of yourself. So I think there's almost an element of if you have to dig that deep, and that's the potential outcome. That is challenging as well, I think, for people, particularly for people who genuinely in their heart want to try Even more. So I think that's a really kind of hard place to land.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of things that you say. I almost want to just reflect back in my answer to your question, like, I think so much of it is around that intentionality, but you've got to be mindful of it. You know, you said right at the start it has to start from our mind and that everyone has to do the work. So if we're not conscious of it, we've got to be conscious of how we're showing up in the space, we've got to be conscious of including everyone. If we're not conscious of it, how can we do the work? So I think we have to start there. Then we have to make the intentional effort to do the work. I think.
Speaker 2:Sometimes, though, there's a fear, like I think there's a fear to upset what is seen as the status quo, and then there's also that element of who does it serve, and I think there are times where people don't do things because it maybe serves themselves and they don't realize that that's actually contributing to a bigger dynamic. If I'm calling that out, am I doing the right thing? Am I looking into things that aren't really there? Am I reading into it too much? Is it also my responsibility to do that as a white, almost middle-aged man? And there are times where I've called things out and then I've gone. Sure, if I should have, but if I don't, well, someone else and I, I'm conscious that it's you know, that fear. But then there's trying to take responsibility and it can be really hard to wrestle with that internally. And and when do you call things out and when do you not?
Speaker 3:yeah, and you know my curiosity around that is, around calling things out. You know, calling things in or calling things out in spaces and having that kind of reaction, whether it's your nervous system going oh I don't know if it's landed, or now it's exposing me or I'm a bit vulnerable One of the things that I've learned is to kind of lean into why I'm feeling dysregulated at that time. I'm feeling dysregulated at that time and even with conviction and something that you know to be true, it doesn't mean that you won't have a reaction internally, right. So I've been in kind of in spaces where I've called things out and calling things out and any liberation work, because we can't say we're doing cultural humility and cultural inclusiveness without that piece of work around liberating people that are feeling oppressed, right. And part of that is Iating people that are feeling oppressed, right, and part of that is I've learned that there's not always an applause when you do that, because people are now sitting and having to really reflect and look at the ways that they've walked in the world, including myself.
Speaker 3:You know my journey to being here and being decolonial and an ongoing journey is filled with so many things that I look back at now and going gosh, you were a little bit lost. Then there's some growing that you needed to do. So sometimes in my calling out, did I harm anyone? Did I use language that was harmful? If the answer is no, I'm like okay. So that little bit of discomfort, I kind of have to lean into it and know that you never know. There was some. There's a moment for that person. They might not declare it in that moment, but they've walked away with a teachable moment that they will never forget.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I resonate with probably that idea that. Yeah, I think it does carry shame for me around past behaviour conversation as well. Just quickly, I'm interested in that calling it in. Did you want to talk to that a little bit, because I've never heard that term before?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I use that a lot when I'm doing a lot of work around. Can any anti-racism work? I wish I could claim that I coined it. No, not really. It's through doing really a lot of work. And what's happened is you were talking earlier on about people doing this amazing work around anti-racism work within schools and you know a lot of research says that. You know young people have learnt it from somewhere and often sometimes you have to be quite attuned.
Speaker 3:Sometimes calling out doesn't necessarily transform the behaviour. It might stop it, like in public going. I don't want to get into trouble with the teacher, so I'm not going to use that language in a classroom, but when I'm on the street I'm going to use it. But when you call in, you actually try and tap into people's empathy and emotions and going your behavior is actually quite harmful. This is why it is harmful and they found that it really transforms the behavior, not just in certain spaces, but they are intentional about going okay, my goodness, my behavior is quite harmful. Now I'm willing to change that. So I think it's different Ways in calling out. How dare you? That's actually not right, how dare you be harmful or whatever it is. So, yes, there's a difference.
Speaker 2:I love that expression and I love that explanation as well. It's like prohibition, right. When you ban something, you just push it somewhere else. You're actually playing around with the symptoms and not the root causes. Yeah, rather than calling out, how do we call in? I love it. Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 1:I am loving it as well and it's really I just think it's a beautiful kind of summation of really this whole conversation that we're having around when we're talking about. Why are people feeling not comfortable to kind of lean into these conversations? Maybe it's because we really do have to consider how we bring people into conversation and the journey that we take them on to get them there, and it really is only by tapping into motivation and intention and what sits at the heart of that feeling, really kind of digging into that space. That's where the change happens, that's where the growth happens. Simply calling it out is step one, baseline, but there's so much more to go to see that change happen. So powerful, samangalise. I love that. I'm going to take that and steal that immediately.
Speaker 3:Please do. Sharing is caring.
Speaker 2:Well, we've been on quite a journey already. I think we're going to have to have you back, because I feel like we haven't even scratched the surface here. We like to round off with a bit of a key takeaway, and so if there is a key takeaway from the the conversation, what would it be? I'm struggling to choose one, semangali. So this is amazing. I think, first of all, we're going to have to call this episode backpack of dreams, because I just thought that was a beautiful analogy and imagery. Maybe this sums it up really well for me. The expression about how we show up into spaces. I feel like that captures a lot. It captures a lot around the intentionality, kindness, leaving a conversation with the other person, feeling more fulfilled than when you arrived into the conversation. Who do things serve? I feel like a lot of it is captured in that and calling things in. Yeah, I think that's my key takeaway. Smita, justin, do you have a key takeaway yet?
Speaker 1:There's so much. I'm really reflecting, I think, deeply on so much of the conversation and the stories that you've shared. Simangaliso, I think I'm actually really just sitting with your story. I think I found that really powerful. I'm so grateful that you've shared that with us today. Just your own journey, courage, resilience, growth, and to hear those voices that kind of keep coming out to push you down or to tell you something about yourself that you know not to be true, and how you've gone on a journey to really continue to find yourself and find that kind of centre and anchor in yourself of who you are and who you want to be and where you want to go. And you're living your life with that authenticity and the fact that you are using that to support others in your role is just so inspirational and powerful. So thank you so much for sharing that story.
Speaker 4:Yeah, see, manali, so it's similar for me in that I feel like you've been so generous in sharing your story and it feels like a real privilege to be in that conversation story. I couldn't pick one because I think I'm going to have to reflect on this for a while. I've learned so much, but probably one takeaway from me is at MacKillop we're really lucky in when we think about cultural configuration. There's lots of places where we can have conversations and I think I'm going to throw myself to those conversations after this discussion. So so thank you amazing.
Speaker 3:thank you for having me. Yeah, you know, I think the thing that kind of stands out for me and that I'm really surprised about is I didn't even think this is the direction our conversation was going to go. So surprised, yeah, but it was just natural, organic and just a feeling. I'm excited we could have gone for three hours.
Speaker 2:I think we're going to have a few more. I'm not going to hold you to that and I think the thing that we've found so far is we seem to go deep really fast. We went deep very, very quickly and we like it to be organic and we want to just have a conversation and see where it goes and I think, to round us out, just a massive thank you to you and for not only giving us some time to do this, but for your sharing and for your story and your wisdom and your insights, and it's been really wonderful to hear from you and can't wait to have you back again and do another episode. So, samangaliso, thank you very much for your time today.
Speaker 3:Thank you, thank you.