That’s TMI: The Meaningful Insights Podcast
That’s TMI: The Meaningful Insights Podcast delves into the heart of human-centred and caring professions, sharing honest, practical stories from education, community services, family services, social work, and many other fields focused on people and relationships. Featuring the voices of practitioners, leaders, researchers, carers, young people, and sector experts, it offers insights, reflections, and ideas for anyone committed to helping children, young people, families, and communities flourish.
That’s TMI: The Meaningful Insights Podcast
Creating Safe and Welcoming Environments
What does it really take to help someone feel safe and welcome when they are new?
The hosts unpack the human side of onboarding, beyond checklists to everyday interactions that shape culture. Drawing on Dan Hughes’ PACE, they explore practical ways to connect, when to pause rather than fix, and how small moments of attunement change a day. The team leans into vulnerability, compassionate candour, and structures that support reflective practice.
Produced by: The MacKillop Institute
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That's TMI, the Meaningful Insights podcast, delving into the heart of human-centered professions.
Speaker 2:That's TMI is recorded on the lands of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to all the traditional custodians of the lands on which you are joining from today. Hello and welcome to this very first full episode of that's TMI. You're joined again by Chris Smita and Justin, and when we were talking about this first episode, we talked about what do we want the topic to be? Should we have some sort of guest speaker or interesting person to talk to? And we had this whole conversation about being new. We're putting a podcast out there for the first time. It's new. What if people don't listen to it?
Speaker 2:And then we suddenly thought what a great topic for our first episode being new and being new somewhere, perhaps a workplace. We've all been new in a place before. We've all been new in a workplace before. So what's that like and what are some of the experiences, and how do we make sure that when someone is new, that we make them feel safe and welcome? So what have been some of your experiences, Smita and Justin? Maybe we'll start with you, smita.
Speaker 1:I love this question because it takes you, I suppose, to all different kinds of places.
Speaker 1:I think this is a topic you can go really deep.
Speaker 1:An example that really kind of comes to my mind that I think, took me by surprise at the time and has been a really great learning journey for me ever since was a good few roles ago kind of.
Speaker 1:You know, starting at a new organization, feeling incredibly welcomed by my manager and kind of being embraced into the role and the organization.
Speaker 1:But watching my colleagues experience that dynamic differently, so actually watching my colleagues kind of have someone new step into the role, watching my colleagues experience like the role change for them because I was stepping into my role and what did that really mean for them and their experience of their role and some of the tensions that come with that. And it really resonated for me as I've kind of moved forward as a leader. Because I think that when we welcome new people in, there's an element of actually managing that change throughout the team and actually really bringing a person into a whole team, not just a person into a role, if that makes sense, or welcoming them in as an individual. They're actually becoming part of something much bigger. And when you're bringing someone into something that's much bigger, you've actually got to take everyone on that journey. So every time you orientate someone new, you're actually orientating everyone on that journey, bringing that person in and making them feel welcome and making others continue to feel valued and respected along the way.
Speaker 2:That is such an amazing insight, straight up.
Speaker 1:I told you, I got you go deep straight away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you, smita. I mean, I was coming at this with the how do we give someone the orientation and point out the fire exits?
Speaker 1:Very important too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but that's such a good point, and I think I can reflect on this personally as well, where, as a leader, when I've had new staff members, I've focused on them and making sure that they feel welcome, that they feel comfortable and maybe not necessarily had that thought about everyone else and the bigger team and the bigger dynamic, and maybe sometimes we can put so much emphasis on an individual that we don't think about the collective and what that means for the collective. What were some of the challenges that you saw arise in that example?
Speaker 1:I mean immediately, you see, dynamics are created and insecurities that come out of some of those dynamics that can bring out not the best in people.
Speaker 1:And it's so important, particularly when you're kind of starting in a new role, I think, to really kind of be starting from a place of we give people the benefit of the doubt, we give people generosity, we give people curiosity.
Speaker 1:So kind of laying those foundations I think is so important just to kind of allow for some of that to unravel. You think about it. You can use the Marie Kondo metaphor of everything kind of comes out onto the table and then is re-put back neatly, the things that bring us joy, back into the cupboards, and that in itself is a process. So I think that was a challenge that we experienced, but certainly the way that we overcame it was through building that trust, through that kind of authenticity of approach. When you kind of get to know someone and you realize, oh no, this is a person with integrity, who is we're all here kind of for the same purpose and drive, it really just allows people to kind of get back on the same page and get back on track. So you can always fix it, I suppose, afterwards, but you can set it up from the beginning for success even better.
Speaker 2:And we'll probably come back to that shortly Smita around. How do you do that? Such good points about the authentic self and building those relationships is a huge part of that, but how do you actually do it? What are some of those practical tips? And certainly, where you've taken my mind to is that whole idea of people also talk about change management and when someone new comes in, there's change. It's change for that person, it's change for the entire team. I don't so much think about change management as I do relationship build. Relationship management for want of a better phrase is actually bringing that new person in, changes the entire dynamic, and so how do we ensure that everyone feels part of that and we build those relationships?
Speaker 1:you could basically say change management and relationship kind of building and relationship management is one in the same.
Speaker 2:In the same, yeah but we like to make things clear talk about change management rather than relationships, don't we justin? What about you? What has been an experience that that you've had?
Speaker 3:geez, after that response from Smita, I'm not sure that I have the depth to my answer, maybe especially after I was kind of caught on the fact that we started this conversation by saying we could have got experts but instead it's us.
Speaker 2:Instead you got these three.
Speaker 1:Instead you got us.
Speaker 2:We are sorry listeners.
Speaker 3:But actually like thinking about welcome, I went back to actually earlier this week and I just happened to be speaking at a at a conference interstate and it was when it was two-day conference. I got up there early on the sunday all set to go on the monday where I wasn't speaking on the monday and then had a bit of a work disaster early in the morning I had to deal with. So I ended up turning up like probably two hours late to the conference. So the welcome person at the desk was there doing registrations, everyone else was inside, we had a nice conversation but I was clearly late to the party and I kind of felt that the story is actually the next day I was speaking first up and I've turned up at the conference center again, but this time I was really early because I like to be prepped and I was a little bit nervous.
Speaker 3:I wasn't sure what was coming. I hadn't really seen the room I was in because I turned up late the day before. So I wasn't feeling great. And I walked around the corner and the same welcome person was there walking past me and she did two things. She kind of stopped and made a bit of a quip about oh wow. You either show up late or you show up early, and we had a bit of that shared giggle in the moment. And then she followed that with I really like what you've got around your neck there.
Speaker 3:And I had my lanyard with our McKillop Aboriginal artwork design on it and after that.
Speaker 3:I felt really good and I walked in really good and I went well. What did? What happened there? And it actually reminded me of Dan Hughes, psychologist out of the States I think talks about the pace model, but really connection in that moment through, I think, firstly playfulness, and I think that's really important. We lose that sometimes, how important it is to be playful. And then secondly, I think, dan, he's called empathy, I probably should say compassion, but through then just a connection and a showing, a comment that I think was more around calming me down for knowing that I was going to be speaking first up and so giving me a compliment to do that kind of walked in with my whole day changed. I kind of heard your story, smeda, and I thought, I thought I must admit there's a little bit of me that went. What a pity, though, that that some of your colleagues in that space when you were new, were I get.
Speaker 3:There's always politics, there's things that happen in a workplace, but really I think the the workplaces we're trying to create are ones where people are open and compassionate, even if those things are going on, because I think that goes a long way. So yeah, I don't feel like it's as deep as your story, samina, but that's my story from early in the week.
Speaker 2:Justin, you make me think about always trying to be mindful, aware that we're all human, we all have emotions. We all have feelings. We don't necessarily know what's going on for someone at that given moment in time or what they might be feeling and you know a whole range of emotions potentially in that moment. But if we just try and make a connection with that person, if we pause we're in that moment with them we find something we can connect with and we do it playfully, you can very quickly make people feel very welcome and very comfortable and, yeah, something I try to remember but you know, maybe isn't necessarily always easy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, while we're kind of talking about communication and I think it kind of segues really nicely from what you were talking about, justin is, I think, this idea that every conversation is a relationship. I was really struck by this concept because I think often as teams, as individuals, as leaders, we often undervalue the power of everyday conversations and how many opportunities and chances you have through everyday conversation to actually continue to show up and show what kind of relationship you want with that person. Often we kind of overvalue and, I suppose, overestimate and plan for those conversations that might happen, say, for example, in supervision or in kind of formal environments, but then we put all of this pressure there and if they don't go quite right, then always have time. That's not where the relationship sits. That is one moment in time, that's one conversation. So actually I think pulling it back and when you're looking at someone and thinking how I show up to every conversation with this person is actually going to frame how they see me, how we view each other, how we trust each other and how we kind of go on this journey together. It gives you so much more room to build trust, so much more room for mistakes, to reflect, to learn from each other. We've always got that the next conversation. So that's always been, I think, a powerful kind of tool that I've tried to kind of take forward. I think a powerful kind of tool that I've tried to kind of take forward, I think, in the workplace.
Speaker 1:But I think the other thing that goes hand in hand with that sometimes is just sheer honesty. I've really tried over the last I suppose oh, I reckon, five years it's been a professional, personal journey trying to bring more vulnerability into the workplace and trying to be a lot more honest with my team or with colleagues around. Oh, I think I missed the mark on that. I want to take us back. Can we just reflect on what happened there? And I'd actually like to apologize. I'd like to try that again and actually just calling it out if you get it wrong or saying, oh look, I actually don't think I'm bringing my best game. You know, in this conversation I'm really conscious that X, y, z is going on. Can we actually hold and I want to, I really want to give you the time that this conversation deserves Can we actually schedule this for later and honest with people about what's happening where you're at, so that they know that you're always trying to do your best, that your intentions are always about that connection and trying to get it right.
Speaker 2:Because that's it, isn't it. It doesn't matter what job title we have or what position we hold in an organization. We're all just trying to do our best.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Every single one of us, but sometimes I think, when you're in a particular position or a job title, you think we have to act a certain way or behave a certain way, or people look at us to behave a certain way, when actually just trying to do our best, we're all just trying to make our way through and we're all learning and we all have our own individual skill sets, experiences, the things that we bring to the table. So maybe there's a place for being more vulnerable and authentic and if we model that with others, if we lead that by example. So how do we do these things? What are some of the, the practical ways that we can do this, especially if we're're, for example, in our situation we're all leaders within an organization. What are some of the ways that we can try and build that connection with all of our team members or new team members, and bringing everyone together and finding connection points, for want of a better expression, what do you think, justin? What are some ways we can do that?
Speaker 3:Actually. So Jared Jones was someone important in my life who was the deputy CEO here at McKillop Family Services, a very special, well-respected man and unfortunately passed away. But one thing that I really valued about him and I knew this through my interactions with him over time, I reflected on it heavily when he passed was, no matter how busy he was, if he ran into you, he always made you feel important by giving you his undivided attention, even for that moment. So he might be on the way somewhere else, and I've reflected on how did he do that and I think it was just great attunement. He would stop. He had the ability to pause for that five seconds, look you in the eye and and really listen to you and show that he was listening and then, in his answer back to you, reflect that and that was enough. You felt that was positive interaction and then you entered your next interaction feeling really good and I wish I could bottle that skill.
Speaker 3:It's a hard skill. I think we'd call it attunement with others, but yeah that's probably where my mind is.
Speaker 2:Do you think it is a skill you can own and learn and become more experienced and more proficient?
Speaker 3:at. My initial reaction to that is yes, I think so. However, can you do it? I think it has to be deliberate. It has to be deliberate. Practice there has to be. You can't just always rely on yourself to catch yourself in those, those moments. I know for me it's always been helpful to have trusted people around me feedback on that but also that it's really explicit that we value relationships and we value being available to each other in the workplace, which means you can have conversations about it. I think the danger is, when those things are unsaid in the workplace, that they get ignored. No one's, no one's speaking about it, not through a choice people are making.
Speaker 2:They just forget or they get caught up in some of that day so you think there's a bigger element to that, then it's not only that you've got to have the individual deliberate practice, but you also need a larger culture of that, a culture that makes it deliberate Leadership and everyone in the organization also noticing that, talking openly about it, using that language, like the need to be something that is seen, visible, lived, breathed, walked oh, absolutely.
Speaker 3:The conditions that you walk into either enable or do the opposite to that. You could have the best interactions in the world, right. But if you walk into a space that feels unsafe and that can be visually, that can be from other interactions that are happening around you, et cetera, then I think it's very hard to do. At the same time, I don't want to then say that our individual interactions- don't matter.
Speaker 1:That's where I was going to go as well, in the sense of it's so important for everyone to have that responsibility. Each person in an organization has responsibility for safety and how you build it and how you demonstrate it and how you show it. And if every person brings that, then the organization inevitably from that swell becomes safe. So it has to kind of work both ways. You have to have the environment that allows people to do that, but then also have the commitment and the action of the individual making it happen every day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think one thing I had in my mind was around this is the teacher in me, but working with students who are disengaged from schooling for all different reasons, and the example that comes to mind is you do all this work, all this relationship building to build to have that young person feel safe enough to walk into that school. You think everyone's on board, we're here, it's happening. The young person turns up and then all it takes is the first interaction as they walk in is they're not the right socks. And all that work, even though everything else is perfectly aligned, can totally break down in that moment. I think we're talking about the conditions, and the actual relationship and the interactions complete the picture.
Speaker 2:I like what you said there about aligned, justin, and I think that alignment is such a key part of this, isn't it? Because if we don't have alignment between the collective and the individual, the the top down, bottom up, if we don't have the environment and the conditions of the environment aligned also with the individual and the individual action, then it's going to be very difficult for it all to work together and for it to work effectively. Does that actually help, then, and create a culture of that?
Speaker 1:I mean, it always comes back to safety, doesn't it? Because to model vulnerability you have to know that it's going to be received with that generosity. It has to be a safe environment to kind of create that culture. A bit of a chicken and the egg, isn't it? You need people to kind of step up and be courageous and be vulnerable, to kind of open that environment up. But you also need people to receive it in the same spirit.
Speaker 3:I must admit I am a believer that we can practice it. We can find routines in our work, in our practice. For example, here we start every morning asking the question how are you feeling? Which is essentially a practice in vulnerability, and you may say I agree with you certainly need to have safety for that to happen, but it's also giving you a space to be back for each and every day While you get ready. We're all going to keep practicing it and when you are ready, you can show it, and that adds to our team.
Speaker 2:It felt so odd the first few times that that happened, where people would ask how I'm feeling. I'm like why are you asking how I'm feeling, what? What's going on here? What's all this lovey dovey stuff where you're asking how I'm feeling? I'm like are you asking how I'm feeling? What's going on here? What's all this lovey-dovey stuff where you're asking how I'm feeling all the time?
Speaker 2:It's remarkable how it makes space and and I think you're right, justin if we don't practice something, how can we get any better, how can we strengthen it, if we don't practice it and make the space to practice it? I think that's something that happens very well is we make the space for these things and we make the space for these conversations. And I'm linking what you're saying about asking those questions at the start of every day, justin, and I'm just so used to it now that I do it in a lot of my meetings now it's not just the first thing in the morning, it's actually at the start of a meeting. I'll ask people are you and what's a goal for you for this thing? Because it makes the space and I think to a point you made as well, samita around there's always time, I think, something that I've also learned from being here is people respond with let's just hold that.
Speaker 2:They don't actually respond in that moment. They say let's just hold that and let's hold that space, and so they acknowledge something, but they make the point it doesn't have to be responded to. Not everything has to be responded to immediately, but I think, especially in certain places and in workplaces in general, we feel like we have to respond to everything. If someone says something, we have to respond. I actually know don't got time. You you can just sit with something and go away and think about it and you have an appropriate response, that you can respond in a way that is supportive and shows that authenticity, and sometimes we need to think about that.
Speaker 1:This is a little bit of a side note, I suppose, but one of the things that I'm really reflecting on hearing you both kind of talk about this is how, actually, through practicing this work, you actually are building a language around it as well. And often you're starting out in this kind of work and approach. It's actually really hard when you don't have the words, you can't actually name your emotion because you're not used to talking about how you feel. It's hard to be vulnerable because you don't know how to be vulnerable. And then, as you practice, slowly but surely, you actually begin to build the vocabulary around that, and I think when, as an organization, everyone is building the vocabulary and it becomes a shared language, that becomes so powerful.
Speaker 3:That makes me think about in our workplaces. We obviously want them to be places where they're safe and we're free to be able to make mistakes and to learn from those mistakes, but we also want them to be places of high professional standards, right. So it makes me think about how do we get that balance right in our workplaces.
Speaker 2:If we're thinking about what place is, and we're all human and we should all be allowed to feel for one a better expression.
Speaker 2:That's probably not the best expression, but let's just go with that. We want people to be able to be human, to err, but surely it's about supporting them and coaching them, and this is the same for me as well. I have an amazing leader who coaches and supports me, but being able to move forward from that, how do we effectively move forward? Surely it's about supporting that person where they have perhaps erred or it's not been the best response in a situation to move forward positively, so surely it's about action. And how do we support someone to implement an action to rectify the situation and move forward more positively? And circling back to your example, smita, where perhaps there's somebody new in an environment, new in a workplace and perhaps maybe others haven't made them feel so welcome, how do we support those people to move forward more positively and proactively and potentially move forward to build that relationship and acknowledging that perhaps they hadn't supported a positive relationship to begin with, but can they do it, moving forward?
Speaker 1:The first thing that I think really resonates with me is when we think about where high professional standards come from. I think they come from a process of learning. I think you have to make mistakes to have high professional standards, because it's through failure, through trying again, through that refinement and that process that we improve. So with that as a basis and we're thinking about actually environments that allow people to make mistakes is really setting itself up to thrive. I think the flip to that and the important element and component is around the level of reflection that that person has. So if you've got a colleague or a team member who is a reflective person in that conversation, then that's a very different journey that they're going to go on because purely by the process of reflection they're going to improve and take that through as they move on and automatically you've got action kind of happening through that. If that person is not a naturally reflective person, then there is actually a really specific, I think, and concrete process that does need to occur with that person and it can be as simple as depending on what it is. I mean, there's obviously a spectrum of things that can go on in a workplace it could just be about having really clear communication and actually just having the safety to tell someone oh, I actually think we could try it differently. Or let's think about what we might do differently next time, if it's something perhaps a little bit more complex, really having an open, honest conversation with well, actually that made me feel and kind of taking them down that route and what could it look like next time, what you'd like to see, what you'd like to hear feel, et cetera. And I think that being really clear in our communication is incredibly important to this work.
Speaker 1:When we think about how we use candor in this space, it's a spectrum but it has to exist. There's obviously a level of candor that's just not remotely attuned with what's going around and can be insensitive, but in the vast majority, when you use candor with your colleagues, you're actually giving them an opportunity to have more effective relationships and have higher quality conversations and interactions with them. The flip, of course, to candor is I've heard it referred to as ruinous empathy, where sometimes we to avoid conflict when we're sitting in that kind of stage of really kind of feeling for someone and kind of put ourselves in their shoes that we don't want to have a clear conversation with them. It actually just lets that situation continue to swirl and stew and nothing then improves. So it's finding that balance between having empathy, listening in reflection, but then having that really clear communication piece to take it forward.
Speaker 3:That's a beautiful point and I actually want to pick up on the reflection piece a little bit more and say something that this is the early days of our podcast and maybe it's a bit late to maybe get controversial, but I'm gonna go there. When it comes to reflection or reflective practice, if you're in a helping profession which is about helping people and it's people are complex, which makes the work complex, and it means every day you're having or doing things in your helping people that either does help or doesn't, and it's not always predictable. There's a there's a hundred different ways you could approach it and maybe some of them are good, and there's a number of different ways you could approach it to have a good outcome, and there's a number of different ways you could approach it to have a negative outcome. You need to be reflective.
Speaker 3:I actually think if there's someone who can't be reflective and that could be because of their, because you're not learning from all these experiences you have every single day, and to me that can lead to that person just doing treating everyone the same, doing the same thing day in and day out, which means potentially doing as much harm as good in your work. And and I think that's a line where we go. Actually. Our professional standards say in a helping profession that if you're by luck doing harm or good, you probably can't be in this profession.
Speaker 2:It's an interesting point, justin, because so many of those helping professions, or the very relationship centered and oriented professions, talk about reflective practice, but we probably don't pause and think about what does that really mean when we talk about reflective practice and, I think, most importantly, how do you do that? So there is someone who is particularly good at it, who's particularly good at reflection, especially in a professional context, or someone who maybe struggles with that? Maybe look to the examples of people who are perhaps effective at it. What is it they do? You know? What is it they do to be reflective? Is there a particular structure they use? Is that a particular way of thinking? Is there a framework? And I suppose where I'm going with this is can we and how do we support people to be more reflective?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that makes me think of two points I'll try to make relatively. One is I think that we can put in place structures that allow that to be a guided practice, and what I mean by that is, as humans, we're naturally drawn to go to speak about difficult things with people we like or our friends or our close colleagues. The problem with that is they often have the same values, belief systems of us, see the world in a very similar way, which means we can go to them wanting to be empowered, but by the end of the conversation we're feeling even worse about the situation because we're like this is rubbish. Yes, that is rubbish. Oh, yeah, it is. It is, and before you know it, you're doing unhelpful actions around it that don't make the situation better. So I think you can have that structure and within that structure it can be guiding people through becoming more reflective, if we understand the different levels of reflection.
Speaker 3:So, for example, someone who's non-reflective would be the problems. The other person it's not about me at all, it's just the other person. If we enter a conversation, a reflective conversation, with that person, we want them to be, by the end of this conversation, enlightened and guiding their actions through their higher purpose and reflecting on what the world needs of me in this moment. Probably eight steps too far down the road, but maybe we can just shift them to go. Okay, it might be a little bit about me, it's still about the other person. Okay, it might be a little bit about me, it's still about the other person, but it's a little bit about me, and, and if we can help them shift through those levels, then there's hope that they're going to become really reflective in their practice.
Speaker 2:If, though, we we try a number of ways of supporting them and they can't even get to that second step, that might be the time where we have to have a difficult conversation around what we expect in our work makes me think about a little diagram drew for me once, justin, because I was talking about perspectives and and you said, yeah, it's just like that diagram. I was like what diagram? And you got a bit of paper out and you drew a circle and you drew an arrow pointing towards the circle and you said this is one person looking and they see their circle. And then you drew the side of it and you drew like a rectangle and you drew an arrow pointing at that and you said, and this is someone looking from the other side and they see a rectangle. But you put the two together and you said but what is actually on the bit of paper?
Speaker 2:And it's like, well, it's a cylinder, you know it's a cylinder where it's, you know, a long cylinder and you've got the circle at the end. You look at it from the side. You've got the rectangle. Two people are looking at the exact same thing, but they're just looking at it from two completely different perspectives. But it's the same problem or it's the same challenge or it's the same topic. Even just drawing that out as a visual, that was such a moment of clarity for me and I actually wonder whether doing something as simple as that, and then using that to start a conversation, could be helpful.
Speaker 1:I am going to go deep here, guys, so just bear with me.
Speaker 1:But I mean, I just found that imagery of the cylinder and we look at it from different directions so powerful. But it also really reminded me of that kind of old adage of we put the problem in front of us, not between us. And sometimes I think that the challenge when we're looking at a cylinder from different angles is the barrier that's actually occurring is, rather than seeing it as it's in front of us, we are focused on the relationship that's actually happening between the two people looking at the problem and that's getting in the way of actually seeing it as a cylinder in the middle, of actually seeing it as a cylinder in the middle. And when I think and I'm reflecting on what Justin was saying earlier about that reflective piece and how we take people on that journey, I actually wonder whether there is work that we can do before the conversation and we even conceptualise it as the readiness for reflection.
Speaker 1:And I think about a journey that I've gone in my own leadership journey around coaching and learning how to be a coach, coaching team members and certainly at the beginning of that journey and taking my team, I remember there were some conversations that would just flow You're talking to someone, they're really in a reflective space.
Speaker 1:And you have these amazing coaching sessions that just they're bouncing and they leave, and they're really in a reflective space. And you have these amazing coaching sessions that just they're bouncing and they leave and they're empowered, and then other ones that you just felt like, oh my gosh, you're just pulling milk from a stone here. And then what was it that was stopping that person from any kind of problem solving for themselves? They're always looking outwardly for someone else to kind of find their solution or reflect for them. But there was elements of were they in a reflective state, were they ready for that conversation? Sometimes, as leaders, we're trying to have a conversation with someone, but it's on our terms, at our pace, at our readiness. So, yeah, I wonder whether, as we're setting up this kind of reflective space, thinking about what actually needs to occur beforehand to get people ready for it.
Speaker 2:Such a good point, musa. I think about the number of conversations where I've been either the one leading or the one being asked to be more reflective, yeah, and how often I've shown up to those meetings without the readiness. If I'm the one maybe being asked to be more reflective, I've often turned up to that meeting not even knowing what the topic of the meeting is what the?
Speaker 2:agenda is and then, all of a sudden, you're being asked to be reflective about a situation that you haven't even been thinking about, or us as leaders in that space. If we are asking someone to be reflective, have we just set a meeting and asked them to come along and then all of a sudden gone? Okay, we need to talk about this and they need you to reflect on it. How are we actually setting people up to have these conversations?
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's a fair chance. A big poster with big bold red words saying reflect now is probably not going to work for you.
Speaker 1:There's probably some research on that somewhere.
Speaker 2:I'm sure I imagine there is. Well, that's been quite the journey of a conversation, hasn't it? We started out this very first episode with talking about being new in a space and how we make people feel welcome in a new space. We've talked through candor, empathy, collective responsibility, individual responsibility, culture, authenticity, reflection. There's a lot in there and certainly makes me realize it's as simple as you maybe immediately first think, and if I have to round that out with a bit of a closing thought, I think my closing thought for this would be around holding space.
Speaker 2:I genuinely think holding space is one of the most important things I've learned as a leader and I think, all too often in my career certainly, and maybe for lots of other people, we try to have immediate responses to things and we try to have immediate solutions. Things come up in conversations, come up in meetings, and, and we feel like we have to respond immediately and we have to come up with some solutions immediately and then try and pick the best solution out of those ones and it's not always the best one, and actually there's something really powerful in just not responding. But I think the most important part of that is just follow through. What's the what you do next? It is actually taking that away and sitting with it, thinking about it, pondering it, seeking advice, coaching, mentoring from from others, and coming back to it because if we don't.
Speaker 2:That's where problems would lie is is if we say we're going to sit with something and then we don't, and we don't come back and we don't do follow through. That's been a really, really important thing for me on my journey. Smita, what about you?
Speaker 1:Such a big one. It has been such a wild journey. I think something that's really kind of twirling around in my mind after the conversation today is thinking about those moments of connection and how we all kind of lean into authenticity in that moment. A kind of common theme that I've heard throughout the conversation today has really been around action and individual agency, and I think that's really important. I think that often we can get caught up in the idea that we're looking to others to solve things for us or to create an environment for us, create culture for us, but actually we're a really important part of that process and journey and taking responsibility and ownership of our safety of reflection and action. I suppose if there's any kind of key takeaway, I'd be thinking about that. Every conversation matters. We never have to put all our eggs in one basket. Give ourselves to your point, chris. Give ourselves the space, hold it, come back, reflect. It's important to think about every conversation with someone is the relationship that you're building with them.
Speaker 3:I think I'm going to go fairly random after learning a lot from both of you. I had my parents recently stay with me and I think I'm just going to try to be more welcoming when they do come and stay and maybe do that with my partner as well when she comes home. And probably my other takeaway is we do need a better selection of drinks. If we're going to do this again, maybe a selection of coffees, maybe some fizzy drinks. Is fizzy drinks good on a podcast? I don't know.
Speaker 1:Some biscuits, biscuits you know wouldn't go astray.
Speaker 2:I suddenly feel like I'm at my Nana's house. We need a selection of coffee and biscuits and some fizzy drinks for the kids.
Speaker 2:That would be me well. Smita justin, thank you so much for your insights today and to all those listening, wherever you are, thank you so much for joining us. We hope that you found this insightful and informative and, at the absolute least, easy to listen to and entertaining, and we really look forward to you joining us for the next one. So thank you, go well, stay safe and we'll see you at the next one.