That’s TMI: The Meaningful Insights Podcast
That’s TMI: The Meaningful Insights Podcast delves into the heart of human-centred and caring professions, sharing honest, practical stories from education, community services, family services, social work, and many other fields focused on people and relationships. Featuring the voices of practitioners, leaders, researchers, carers, young people, and sector experts, it offers insights, reflections, and ideas for anyone committed to helping children, young people, families, and communities flourish.
That’s TMI: The Meaningful Insights Podcast
Student Voice in Schools, with Dr Russ Quaglia
International student-voice advocate Dr Russ Quaglia unpacks what authentic voice really means, and why it strengthens, not replaces, teacher and leader voice. He shares a practical definition schools can adopt, voice as thoughts shared in trust, realistic suggestions for the good of the whole, and responsibility for what happens next. Backed by decades of research, Russ explores self-worth, engagement, and purpose, and the daily habits that make voice the air we breathe.
Guest: Dr Russ Quaglia
Produced by: The MacKillop Institute
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That's TMI, the Meaningful Insights podcast, delving into the heart of human-centered professions.
Speaker 2:That's TMI is recorded on the lands of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to all the traditional custodians of the lands on which you are joining from today. Welcome back and thank you for joining us on this third installment of that's TMI. Today we are very excited to have with us world-renowned expert on student voice in schools, dr Russ Qualia. Dr Russ Qualia is a well-known author on the topic of student voice and school leadership. He's been a university lecturer and professor, a researcher, and he's also a children's book author as well. He's known for his deep passion in the area of student voice in schools and he believes deeply that every young person has a voice and that we need to listen and hear those voices and that when we do and we do this authentically and genuinely we can promote student engagement, a sense of self-worth and purpose. Russ, thank you so much for joining us today. So, russ, to kick us off, why student voice? Why is student voice and hearing from every student? Why is it important?
Speaker 3:Wow. Well, chris, all I got to say is I don't even know why I'm on this. That was like not only a perfect introduction, but now I have nothing basically to say. I appreciate the introduction. It's actually funny when I think of. This is 44 years of doing this work, and it's funny to me.
Speaker 3:Now, when someone will introduce, they'll say something like oh, this visionary around student voice work. And I'm like, no, 40 years ago I was a visionary about student voice work because no one paid any attention to it. I go right now I am just a survivor of student voice work. I'm just so damn thick headed I didn't give up. And now, all of a sudden, it's oh yeah, what an important thing to talk about. But literally 1986, I started working and writing around the importance of student voice and the impact it had.
Speaker 3:And a question that I get asked a lot is why student voice? And without being flippant, it's just like why not? It only makes sense that we ask the people that we work with not work for or work to, but work with what are they thinking, what's their ideas, what's their input? And so, when it comes to student voice, I never understand why this is like the program, when this should be the reality, the reality that we're all in this together.
Speaker 3:Student voice isn't more important than teacher voice, it's just different, and I hear that a lot. The kickback I get from a lot of educators oh you're so into student voice, you think it's so much more important than ours. I go no, don't. I know it's different than yours, which makes it important for me to hear it, but nowhere do I say student voice is more important than teacher voice or leader voice or parent voice. What I do say it's different and we need to listen to that, because we don't have all the answers, we don't know what these students are going through, and so why not only ask them what they're thinking?
Speaker 2:to your point, you said really, chris, let's listen to it, let's learn from it and then let's lead together on that, russ, do you often hear from people in schools that if we become better at listening to our student voices, that it means that they're going to lose their voice?
Speaker 3:How do we move that forward Again without taking away any of our own voices? Because some people also think that providing students an opportunity to have a voice is like this zero-sum game. In other words, if I'm providing students an opportunity to have their voice, that must mean I'm losing mine. I'm like no, it's not a zero-sum game, there's plenty of voice to go around I go by. Providing students an opportunity to have a voice will only make the teacher voice that much louder if you would, that much easier to listen to. So the notion of why student voice? Because it makes sense. It makes common sense, it's respecting who we're working with. And then the data we have. That speaks profoundly to the importance of voice.
Speaker 3:When students are perceived to have a voice and this is important to understand when they're perceived to have a voice, they're 32% more likely to have self-worth. And there's so much work out there now about this whole notion of self-worth and well-being. The mere notion of a student thinking they have voice doesn't mean they have to have one. It means they think they have a voice. They're 32% more likely to have greater self-worth than students who don't think they have a voice. They're 38% more likely to be engaged in their learning. They're 43% more likely to have a sense of purpose. So this voice thing on the surface makes all sorts of common sense because we want to be listened to and learned from. But it also has data to support. If we want students to feel better about who they are, if we want students to have a sense of purpose, if we want students to be more meaningfully engaged, we need to incorporate this notion of student voice.
Speaker 3:And I know in Australia you sneak the word agency in there on me and that's okay, I've learned to accept. I don't like it but I've learned to accept it because I am a flexible American if there is such a thing. But I get it. I get the notion of voice and agency. I like to look at voice in the same kind of ilk, if you would, because I think people understand voice more than they do agency, but that's my bias. But that's a long answer to like. Why student voice?
Speaker 1:That's certainly my experience with that word agency too, Russ, is that people don't fully understand it a lot of the time. But I will say you've given us great points around the importance to students, not only their schooling but also their life. Yes, why is it important to have a shared definition of voice, do you think?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So, justin, that's the key question and when we work in the schools, it's the number one thing we do. Actually, the number one thing we do is to say this is why voice matters and we got data to show it matters in common sense and case studies. But once that is sorted out, we need a common definition because what happens is people sometimes think voice there's a few things. They either think voice is something we give students and I'm like no, they have one, they have one. You might not be listening to it, but this isn't like divine intervention, oh, you will have a voice. It makes me nuts.
Speaker 3:When school says we're working on student voice, I go no, you need to be working on teacher ears, because kids have a voice, they have a voice. We need to do a little better job listening. So the very first thing, just to your point, is we need a common understanding and this is where I connect the voice and agency, because I get the agency thing and I understand why that's in policy. But to your point, if I talk to a kindergartner, a preschooler, about agency, they're looking at me like I've got three heads. If I talk to parents about I'm talking about student agency, they think that I don't know, the secret service is coming in somewhere. I'm like, no, I want to talk to you about voice, but we need a general understanding of what it is, because people's definition is so different. So we have three components. The very first one this is interesting.
Speaker 3:Now that I'm here with you, I'll pull the curtain back. I wrote the first book on student voice over a decade ago, which did pretty well. It's in a number of different languages, but here's what's interesting about it the definition of voice in that book was pathetic. It was just now. This isn't helping book sales, I know, but it wasn't good. It just wasn't good because our definition was this sharing thoughts and ideas in an environment underpinned by trust and respect.
Speaker 3:So on the surface, yeah, people are sharing thoughts and ideas. The key piece is in an environment underpinned by trust and respect. I understand why people are in schools, but if we expect voice to be listened to and learned from, it really needs to be an environment underpinned by trust and respect. And I share this with adults and I'm saying when you talk to your significant other, you're way more likely to share your experiences and ideas if you know that person is trusting you, if you believe, that we're in an environment where I can say what I believe without being ridiculed or put down or judged. So that was our first component and I said, oh yeah, that's pretty, pretty good. But that was me when I was at the university, because it's the 40 000 foot level oh yeah, just share thoughts and ideas, underpinned by trust and respect.
Speaker 3:Then we got some pushback and rightfully. The pushback says no, that's just going to create a lot of chatter, and I'm like you're right. So the second component after they share their thoughts and ideas, the second component is offering realistic suggestions for the good of the whole. Now look at that definition. That definition is different. It's not just one-way communication of me asking or complaining. I am now sharing my thoughts and ideas, ideas for the good of the whole. So what I'm suggesting is we got to change the narrative. It's I want to hear your thoughts and ideas, but I want to hear them how they're for the good of the whole, right, and I want realistic suggestions.
Speaker 3:I hear people all the time say think outside the box. I want you to think outside the box. I tell people all the time here's the reality. You work in a box. Schools are a box. Now, if you need to think outside that box, go ahead, but know those ideas that you're getting outside the box need to get brought back into your box. I go, bedazzle your box, make it bigger, make it prettier. I don't care what you do, but stop saying I need to think outside the box. There is a miracle cure out there. I go, you can think out there, but just know you work in a box, so bring something back. That's realistic, all right. So now I've got shared thoughts and ideas, offering realistic suggestions for the good of the whole. That's pretty powerful.
Speaker 3:But I was still missing the piece, and this is where the agency piece comes in for me. But I wrap it into the way we define voice. The third component of our voice definition is accepting responsibility, but not only what I'm saying, but what needs to happen next. That's the agency piece. Now I own it. So I'm sharing my thoughts and ideas because I'm in an environment underpinned by trust and respect. I'm offering realistic suggestions for the good of the whole. And third, and just as important as the other two components, I'm now accepting responsibility for what needs to be done. Now, all of a sudden, I'm looking at voiceless. Amen, I want more voice.
Speaker 3:Because if we all just to your point, if we all have that common definition, it is an easy thing to support. It's not saying oh, just tell me what you think or we're going to have a, we're going to have a seminar on voice and everyone's going to air their grievances. No, that's then it becomes an event. To me, voice is a process. It's not an event. It's not going to happen because some principal says, oh, this is what we need to work on, or some teacher says, I'm going to give my students voice like that's theirs to give. It's going to happen. We have a common understanding and that common understanding which really works is that preschoolers understand it. This isn't like rocket science out there. This is common.
Speaker 3:I was going to say this. I don't want to say this in a bad way. I was going to say preschoolers understand it and parents even understand it. That's the real killer, because, as a former principal and I know you're going to have principals in your audience as a former principal, my biggest lie because I was a principal back in the day my biggest lie is when I said to the principals it is to the parents that are in my first meeting with the families I would always say it is so good to see you all here.
Speaker 3:Okay, that was lie number one, because it really wasn't. I was like they scared the hell out of me. Then my second lie is I would say to them come by my office anytime. I have an open door policy I want to hear from you. Come by my office anytime. I have an open door policy. I want to hear from you. That was even more of a lie because I did not want to hear from them. And then I said the third biggest lie was if you see me in the store, stop, just pull over. If I'm being arrested, come in join me. I want to hear what you think.
Speaker 3:The reason I had trouble saying that now is because I didn't mean it then, because we didn't have a definition of voice.
Speaker 3:A parent voice was a complaining one Like you need to fix this, Dr Q, you need to do this. My son, johnny, is not being treated like I was in fix it mode. But if I had this definition of voice from my parents amen, I would be begging them to come to my. Come to my office. Sheer realistic suggestions, go to the hole and, oh, take responsibility for what needs to happen next. So this notion of voice I know that was probably the longest explanation ever, but that notion of the definition of voice is critical for us because we can't start with everybody all over the place how they're defining voice, because I understand why teachers don't want students to have voice and I understand why students don't want teachers to have more voice, because we don't understand what it really means and there's a big difference between voice and noise and we're promoting this notion of voice. Everything else out there that doesn't think for the good of the whole, not offering realistic suggestions or accepting responsibility, to me that's noise russ.
Speaker 2:You mentioned the stats around self-worth, engagement and purpose earlier. Could you tell us a little bit more about those principles?
Speaker 3:yeah so so we've got that voice definition. Then we have what drives these, what we believe are three guiding principles of self-worth, engagement and purpose. Within those guiding principles there's all sorts of other variables. For example, you can't have self-worth unless there is a sense of belonging. I can't feel good about myself if I don't feel like I belong in the community. Now here's the catch that when we talk about, belonging is not just feeling a part of the community, it's not just wearing the same colored jackets or going to the same, cheering on the same teams. That's all fine and dandy. But a real sense of belonging is I feel like I'm a part of the community but I can be myself. That's the difference, because this notion of belonging is relatively easy to do. Gangs do it all the time, cult leaders do it all the time. But in school we want more than that. I don't want you just to feel like you belong. I want to celebrate who you are. I want to recognize your diversity and celebrate it as a group. So when I hear people talk about belonging or self-worth, I'm like the first thing we need to do is have these students feel like they belong, like they matter. Individually they matter, and collectively they matter.
Speaker 3:The other piece is around self-worth. The students need heroes. They need someone that they can look up to, not just the superstar athletes or the people you see now in the Olympics. Those aren't bad role models, but I need real people. I need people like I can pick up the phone If I'm having a bad day. I'm not picking up the phone and say oh yeah, I know you're a supervisor, could you help me? I put this little thing. No, that's not happening. Maybe it will, I don't know, but chances are it's not happening.
Speaker 3:I want to know the brothers, the sisters, the aunts, the uncles, the older students, the younger students, the teacher, the janitor, the cafeteria worker, the administration that's in the front office, the principal, the assistant principal, the guidance counselor, the art teachers, theater these are the heroes, whether they know it or not. And some teachers say I don't really want to be a hero and I just tell them that's not even your choice. Your only choice is if you're a good one or a bad one. The students will decide if you're the hero or not. So I talk to people all the time. That's not me, I'm like it might not be you, but some students might think it's you, so you need to rise to the occasion.
Speaker 3:And then the last component, particularly around self-worth, because I know this notion of taking care of ourselves. Self-awareness is important is having a sense of accomplishment. We are driven by grades and I get that, but I also want my students to be recognized for effort, for perseverance, for citizenship. We talk about that like it's important, because I believe it is and it's in mission statements, but rarely do we practice it in schools and that becomes problematic. I get the importance of grades, but I also believe the importance of citizenship and perseverance.
Speaker 2:And what about engagement, Russ? How does hearing student voice really help with engaging students actively in whatever we are doing in our schools?
Speaker 3:So this is funny. We wrote this book on engagement. I always make fun of people that write books on engagement because it's 9 billion of them out there. Oh my God, everybody's an engagement expert and I tell people all the time no, engagement is relatively simple. Let people have a voice and you know what they're going to be engaged. Oh, you're going to tell me what you think about what we're learning. Shocker, I might be more engaged. You're going to share your voice with me. Oh, I might even learn some of your interests. Shocker, you might be engaged. I'm going to test your fun and excitement ability, because that's how we look at engaging what's fun and exciting. Like, I can't know what excites you until I talk to you. Again, a shocker. The notion of communicating opens up these doors to engagement like nothing else. Like the data, when students believe they have a voice, when they believe they're being listened to and learned from, they're 38% more likely to be engaged in their learning. I don't care how many books you read, you're not going to get that kind of data results.
Speaker 3:And again I go back to common sense. Now I want to be super clear about this. Common sense does not translate to common practice, I get. There are two distinct things. Like, we do things in school that make absolutely no sense to anyone, but you know what, we still do it. So I tell people all the time what makes sense and what doesn't. How about going back to some common sense? And common sense tells me if I know my students, the better I know my students, the better I can gauge my teaching to their needs. And I'm not just talking academic needs, I'm talking about motivational needs.
Speaker 3:If I'm teaching mathematics and I have a jazz player, a jazz guitarist, in my class, you know what I'm taking those notes he or she is learning and I'm going to put some academic, some mathematics spin on it. If I have someone that's so engaged in geography during my English classes, you can make damn sure I'm going to be having them writing papers on some kind of geography thing that's going on. If I've got someone in my class that is an environmentalist, I don't care what subject matter I'm teaching, I'm going to hone in on that and say, from your perspective as environmentalist, how does that impact what we're learning in math? How does it impact what we're learning in math? How does it impact what we're learning in English? What are you learning in my social studies class that's going to help you round out, be a better environmentalist. Now that person grew up to be an environmentalist, I don't know, but what I do know is, in time and space, that they're going to be recognized for something that they're interested in. And that only happens if I have conversations with students.
Speaker 3:As a university professor, I would have small classes with my doctoral students and they were pretty small and I got to know them and we'd have conversations, and the richest conversations were the ones that we just went on these tangents where they were applying things. I was also a professor that had hundreds of students, because clearly I was also a professor that had hundreds of students, because clearly I was a brilliant professor. But no, I'd have huge seminar classes. I don't know 800 people. I didn't know them from all the ground. I know I'm hitting with them students, but I know I'm missing with others.
Speaker 3:So it was like this, and I know people don't have classes of 800, but even if you've got classes of 30 or 40 or 25, for that matter, you've got to be so purposeful, understanding who your students are. It's easy to write it off as a professor because it's out there in big lecture halls, but there's no excuse to write it off when you're teaching primary, elementary school, middle school. There's just no reason we can't know our 100 plus kids incredibly well. There's no excuse. And the same thing, there's no excuse they shouldn should know who you are as a person as well. I'm always amazed the teachers that are most engaging with their students. They not only know the students, but the students know them. They know what buttons to push and they know which buttons not to push. And I tell the staff all the time, and particularly administrators, I say your staff knows how to engage you, don't they? Because they know what buttons to push. Now you need to figure out what the positive buttons are to push. But yeah, it just makes sense. The more conversations we have, the greater it is for engagement.
Speaker 3:And then, last but not least, purpose, which, since COVID, as a matter of fact, I've been hell-bent writing about purpose. When COVID came and all the schools were upside down, I said you know what I know? We think this is the tough times. These are not the tough times. The tough times are going to be after post-COVID, after the students get a taste of what it means to be independent and I don't have to come in every day and jump from class to class. I'm going to be learning asynchronously. I'll be in control of my learning. I'm going to take more responsibility. It's going to be tough getting those kids back in to get socialized again.
Speaker 3:I also thought it was true about the teachers. I think it's tough for teachers to come back from COVID. I've got teachers in metropolitan districts here in the United States that love teaching during COVID because they had no discipline issues because everything was online. They had nobody touching each other because everything was online. They had no traffic because all they had to do is deal with the traffic going from the second floor bedroom to the first floor office. So it was like this is pretty good. Now I've got to get re-socialized and see what's going on.
Speaker 3:But I see us losing students now. I see us losing teachers now because I believe they've lost their sense of purpose. They've got to revisit what are my values, what are my passions, what are my goals, what are my skills and what voice allows us to do. It allows us to verbalize what our values really are. It allows us to share what am I passionate about. It allows me to come up with goals and my aspirations of what I'm going to do next, and then, ultimately, through conversations, I can figure out. After I understand my values and I understand my passions and my aspirations, I can talk about what skills do I need? Because that is the piece we forget about. Purpose. Purpose is more than understanding who you are. Understanding is who you are and what you're going to do about it.
Speaker 1:That's purpose who you are Understand, it's who you are and what you're going to do about it. That's purpose. It's actually had me thinking of the next question, which is how do you think are probably the most unheard student voices in schools and how do we recognize them and how do we listen to?
Speaker 3:them. So if you've got a love, that's such a great question. So, justin, my experience is the students that are the most unheard are the ones that we don't align with. It is easy. It is easy to hear the voices of students that we align with. It is so hard to track someone down that we know we're going to get critiqued. It's like why I introduced this new idea. I think I'm going to run it by my staff because I am a hundred sure they're going to be 100% supportive, which is great for your ego, but doesn't do much advancing my understanding of what I'm working on. So it takes effort and time to go after people that we don't hear from.
Speaker 3:Often. Silence is not golden. I say this to administrators all the time. As a former administrator, I would think if my staff didn't have questions, I'd be like I was crystal clear. They are loving me. Instead, what it was is they were talking to their steering wheel driving it like what the hell is Russ talking about today? What the so silence? I tell teachers all the time is not golden. If you have a quiet staff meeting and ask for input, no one has any. So I go no ask, force them to ask questions. You've got to figure out what's going on.
Speaker 3:The other thing, justin, is important too about voice that we're we're slow on this one at our end. I don't feel good about this, but this is our weakness. Students with special needs we're going to be purposeful about going after them Now. They could be on the exact same page where we are. They could be incredibly affirming to what we're doing. But we can't take anything for granted.
Speaker 3:The other thing that I share with people is and I know this is going to sound somewhat odd, but listen with your eyes. I tell people all the time listen with your eyes. These students aren't very verbal. I'm like you know what when their head's on the desk like this. I don't need to do a survey on engagement. They're not engaged. Look with your eyes, because your eyes will tell you a whole lot about what you can hear. If I see a student sitting by themselves in the cafeteria, these students being mean to each other, I don't need a survey, I don't need a focus group. I'm seeing with my eyes, I'm listening with my eyes and I think that becomes critically important.
Speaker 3:The other barrier when it comes to certain students and I'm not saying all students, but certain students they don't know how to use their voice. They just don't. I tell students, I tell this to teachers too. Don't judge me. Don't. Let me judge what you're saying by how you say it right.
Speaker 3:I think we spend so much time trying which is good trying to have a definition of voice that we understand, can appreciate and operationalize, but then we just can't assume that voice just happens. It's not a natural way of being. We're going to teach young people when to use their voice, how to use their voice, what to use their voice about and where to use their voice. It's pretty basic and I we have staff that goes out there and works with students and when I see them work with students I'm like saying, yep, that's exactly what we need to do. But then I also realize that's exactly what we need to do with staff.
Speaker 3:Have you ever gone to a staff meeting and see how they communicate with each other in the faculty room? It's mind-boggling to me. It's what somebody's feelings are getting hurt. Have you ever been to what else? So I've been to more elementary schools where I have an elementary teacher open up to say one thing about another elementary not a bad thing, but just questioning something. What happens? They believe angry, they leave upset.
Speaker 3:We talk about students having clicks. Oh my god, we're like teachers. We're the click masters. We're the master click clicks. Oh my god, we're like teachers with a click masters. We're the master clickers. Oh, that could be a new book. I'm gonna write that down, actually, master.
Speaker 3:So the notion is not having a voice just creates these pockets. That creates these pockets where I do have clicks and the staff where I don't understand how to share what I'm saying without hurting somebody's feelings and it it's accepting what I'm hearing. The other component of voice is about listen, learn and lead. The very best people that use their voice know how to listen and then they're also willing to learn and then they're really willing to lead with each other. So if you look at the definition of voice and then compound that with listen, learn and lead, you've got a winning combination. But again, it doesn't happen with a workshop. It just it takes time.
Speaker 3:But I'm thinking of the schools we're working with. We're looking at three years and I know that sounds like a lot, but when you spread it out over time I would find this fight is oh my God, you've been working there for three years, I go. Yeah, we've been working at a school for three years. We go five times a year for two hours. That's 10 hours. That's 30 hours in three years and you're happy that you have voice I'm like it's a miracle we have anything that happens in schools. When you look at the way we do professional development Because they're always saying, god, things are so slow, I go, you just spent 10 hours a year on this that's like teaching algebra class for a week and wondering why your kid's on calculus it's seriously dude, you've taught me for 10 hours. The same thing is true with professional development. We think it's a pill. Take the PD pill, you'll be fine. Take the pill, call me in the morning, tell you what you need.
Speaker 1:It's good, russ, you actually had me thinking and this is probably off script so I want to make the recording, but I was actually like so I spent the last 10 years working with young people who disengaged from mainstream education and one of the great privileges I've had is I've got to do what's called a referral interview. It's not really an interview. When I meet the student for the first time. They're coming into our schools and the family and it's amazing how often we'd be told by schools, like most of the time, that this child or this young person will not talk, they won't give you anything, and within an hour it's amazing how we get them to talk about what they want for themselves at school, what they want for their family, and really, quite often schools come out of that well, that was amazing.
Speaker 1:I can't believe I've never heard him say so much. But really what it was, if I reflect back, it's we invest first. Part of that reading is just showing them that we value you, we want you here at our school. What you say is important and I'm going to listen to every bit of it and we're going to. We're going to talk about it and when that happens, 99% of the time that student has said far more than any adult in that room, even in a room full of adults.
Speaker 3:Yep, yep. Because here's the thing what you did, justin, what you did, you create an environment of trust and respect. Because these disengaged students that I work with as well, they're disengaged because they don't think anybody understands them and they're so tired of people saying, oh, they just don't care. And I'm like, they care. They don't know yet that they don't care, so don't tell me, oh, they just don't care, they're not going to say anything. I'm like no, they care. They need to know that we care. That's the difference. So when someone says these students don't care, I say hell to the no, they absolutely care. You need to convince them that you care.
Speaker 3:And the second you did that, justin, it's yep, yep. I'm going to share what I'm thinking, and now it's up to you to listen to that and learn from it and not react, because I've also seen the flip side. The kids will say something, the students will say something to the administration. Then the administration says no, that's not what you think. I'm like no, that is what I think. I've seen this with parents. I've got two grandkids and I see my daughter do this. She doesn't live in Australia, so I can say this, because she will never hear this recording, but they'll ask the little ones what they want and they'll tell her. And then she says to the little ones that's not what you want, no, that is what they want. You asked, he told you and I tell this to teachers Stop asking for things you don't want answers to Absolutely.
Speaker 1:We also ask a really interesting question to the children and young people, which is who's your favorite teacher? And it fascinates me that they always come back. So they always firstly have one. Secondly, it's when they speak about why. It's because it's adults who went out of their way to get to know them really well. And it's amazing how many times in schools we speak about that one class that student or young person is doing well in, like it's a miracle, like it's just happened and it's just luck of the draw and they do well there. It must be because they like the subject and they don't like others. But actually what we find all the time is students quite often they're not just giving the subjects they love, they're actually giving the adults who really they had a connection with.
Speaker 3:It's like real estate. When they say real estate is about location, teaching is about relationships. Justin, you know what I ask students. It's interesting and something to try. Instead of going to the teacher you know, like who's your favorite teacher, I would say who's your favorite person personally and tell me why? Because then it has them think a little bit differently. And then we say are there characteristics that I can learn from as a teacher, from this? Because all of a sudden I've taken the teacher baggage away. But I want to know who do you like spending time with? That's another way to ask. I always try to ask it get around it a little bit, because this is a patty and this is your favorite teacher. What do you want this teacher to? I would want to go like who do you like to hang around with? Why do you like to hang around with? Why do you like to hang around these kind of people? And then all of a sudden you can start deducing oh yeah, this sounds like Mr So-and-so or Ms So-and-so, because they'll have lunch with you in the cafeteria, something like that I always try to.
Speaker 3:When it comes to the student voice, I try to be as leading and non-direct as I can be. Does that make sense? I want to hear what they think, but I want to make sure I'm understanding why they're saying what they're saying. I don't want them to say things that I want them to hear. And we survey students and do focus groups all the time. I would ask them a question and they're saying what I think they want everyone to hear them say and I would literally, justin and Chris, I would look at them in the eye and I'm like you don't mean that. No, I do. I'm like do you really? And they're like this no, and I'm like all right, tell me what you think. I don't need to know what adults think. I want to know what you think your student voice and there's something special about student voice, see the word it's student, it's your voice. I don't want student voice mimicking adult voice. I don't need that because I have adults there I can talk to. I want to know what excites you. I want to know what your values are. I want to know who you want to hang around with. I want to know what I can do to help you be a successful student. And then I want you to know, because I'm going to be ready to answer this for the students and this is important for everybody that's going to be listening to this above voice. You need to share your voice with students, what you expect from them as well.
Speaker 3:This isn't a one-way street, and I think this is absolutely true with disadvantaged students, and we work with some inner-city schools, and the very first thing I urged myself to do was raise expectations. We're going to raise expectations. They're so used to flying under the radar because the radar is so pathetically noncompliant to anything. I'm like no, let's raise the stakes, let's raise the expectations. If we're going to have celebratory things, let's celebrate something worth celebrating, and one thing to celebrate is to ask the students what they should be celebrating.
Speaker 3:What gives you recognition? What would make you happy that I recognize you? So something what are you good at? And I would do this with an interview, particularly when you talk about that the referral meeting or interview I would be so upright and say listen, you're here for a reason. A lot of people won't think you're good at anything. What are you good at? I need to give me something Like what makes you shine? I don't care what somebody else says. What makes you shine personally? What are you passionate about? What do you want to get up like it's Christmas in the morning? What is it? Just help me understand what it is, because that's the only way I can help you move forward. And how does this tie into voice? It's all about voice. We can't do this silently, we can't read minds yet, but it's all about voice. It's being willing to listen, be willing to learn and then lead with our students.
Speaker 1:Beautiful advice.
Speaker 2:That's beautiful, russ. There's so many good things in there. That last kind of comment around what are they good at and finding what they're good at makes me think of so many times when I was a younger teacher where I would give students praise and they didn't react the way I expected. And then I realized afterwards it's because they didn't place value on the thing that I was giving them praise for. They didn't see it on the thing that I was giving them praise for. They didn't see it as something that was deserving of praise. So it links so beautifully with all the kind of points you've already made around purpose and value and goals and aspirations. But we need to hear what those are. We need to hear them. And yeah, if you could sum up some key messages, because I think there's just so much gold in this already. But if you could sum up some key messages, because I think there's just so much gold in this already, if you could sum up some key messages for our schools what would they be?
Speaker 3:I guess the first one would be that voice is not easy. It's seemingly easy and I see people, I see schools, I see actually states, for that matter that say we're doing voice, we do a survey, our students feel valued because we meet with them or the principal will have lunch with them once a week, maybe once a month, and I'm like, no, that's not it. It's going to be like the air we breathe. Student voice needs to be a natural way of being and it's not that yet. So I think for the schools is to be purposeful about it. I don't think having a period called student voice is helpful. I don't think having a student group called the student voice group is helpful. I think it's just going to be a natural way of being, where it becomes the air we breathe.
Speaker 3:We've been in a district in California actually for, I want to say, eight years and we shouldn't be there that long. They just want us there because we just keep on enriching what they're doing. What's really fascinating about this? We'll send people there to see the school and now they're. They wonder why? And I'm like because you're like the model voice school and they're like I don't see it anymore and I'm like that's the beauty. You don't see this, because this is who you are. It's a way of being. It's not. There's no fanfare, there's no giant posters anywhere. This is how we roll. It doesn't slow them up, and this is in the most challenging places on the planet, and they just need to show that somebody Justin to your point shows that they cared, had a trusting relationship with them, respected who they were and valued. That doesn't mean they get their way, and this is the other important thing that I would leave schools with.
Speaker 3:The students having voice is not them getting their way. That's just called being spoiled. Students believe they have a voice when they believe they'll listen to and learn from. It doesn't have to be their way. They need to believe that they will listen to and learn from, and then, all of a sudden, the rest is gravy.
Speaker 3:And the thing about moving forward is I would challenge schools to continually reflect on their purpose and renew their passions about who they are, why they became an educator. To me, that's really important, and by having that understanding, the voice piece just comes to the top. There's nothing magic about it. It takes hard work, though, and it's got to be purposeful, because it's not a natural way of being a student. I'm used to having their voices heard, learned from a valued. Some teachers aren't either. So this is usually hard work, incredibly purposeful, and the best way to do it is being honest and open and create this environment of trust and respect and the rest will come. It's going to take time, but the rest will come.
Speaker 3:I've seen it happen over and over 44 decades plus, of the most challenging places. It's this belief, and I tell teachers all the time you've got to believe that wonderful surprises are just waiting to happen. And all the hopes and dreams all the hopes and dreams we have for ourselves and all the hopes and dreams we have for our students they're all our reach. This isn't a magic potion out there. All these hopes and dreams are well within our reach.
Speaker 2:We just need to be purposeful and go after it oh, I think we've also got the next title for your next book. That, to me, is just why I got into education. I just want special things to happen for kids everywhere and good things to happen. And that happens when we hear, when we listen and when we hear and learn.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and Chris, your point, it's about being present, and I can't be present as an educator if I'm not sure of my own purpose, and I think that's a challenge. We have a lot of educators now and I've dealt with it myself. There are times I'm like, why am I getting on a plane again until I'm there? And this is my purpose? This, this gives me hope and it just refuels me again and I it's. I think it's critical, but we got to take time to do that. And again, purpose is a pretty complicated entity out there, but we all have it. And the other good thing about purpose it's a renewable energy, it's an absolute renewable energy well, on that beautiful note, we might thank you for your time, russ, and all your phenomenal insights.
Speaker 2:I'm very excited to read the latest book and the next book, but and definitely some of those early ones, even though you've said the ones from 1988 are maybe not the best ones. Everything is an evolution has to start somewhere. So very excited to see what you do next and thank you for giving us a little bit of your time today. I know I've certainly appreciated it and I'm confident that everyone listening will have appreciated it as well. Thank, you you so much Russ.
Speaker 3:I think I made a mistake, but let me thank you. Thank you all, for allowing me to be part of this. I look forward to the day when you have a meeting where I don't have to get up at three in the morning because I promise I will be there. So I hope this was helpful. Chris Justin, thank you so much for the opportunity.
Speaker 1:Thank you Absolutely, Ryan. I you so much for the opportunity. Thank you absolutely. I was gonna say I won't say anything else because I've probably got a hundred questions that could go for a hundred hours. So that was amazing.
Speaker 2:So thank you so, to round us out, thank you so much again, dr ross qualia, for all your amazing insights on student voice in schools. Thank you to all of our listeners, wherever you are joining us from today, and we look forward to you joining us for the next episode of that's TMI.