Ep. 8 – Building Up, Not Out

Want a clearer way to fund what matters without writing a blank check? We sit down with Fayetteville Mayor Molly Rawn to break down a voter-friendly bond approach that keeps the tax rate steady while letting residents approve nine priorities one by one. The hook: a refinancing question that must pass to unlock the rest. The payoff: modern infrastructure, smarter amenities, and the capacity to grow without tripping over our own pipes.

From there, we get candid about housing. “Affordable” looks different to a software hire shopping for a $325k home than to a neighbor living outdoors and waiting for a shelter bed. Both needs are urgent. We talk about the missing middle, duplexes, triplexes, and small apartments that zoning still blocks in much of the city, and why permitting should be simple, predictable, and fast. Builders want to deliver; the city’s job is to remove needless friction, align code with reality, and make room for homes that match how people live now.

Capacity starts underground. Roads, water, and drainage are the foundation for any new housing. That is where the bond earns its keep, funding the systems that prevent moratoria and sprawl. We also explore solutions beyond the market: a reset at the housing authority to rehab unfit units, deeper partnerships with nonprofits serving unhoused neighbors, and a new path to put underused public land to work through transparent requests for proposals. More multifamily, not limited to student-by-the-bedroom leases, can open doors for families, teachers, nurses, and service workers who keep the city running.

Culture matters, too. Fayetteville can keep its values and still embrace three-to-four-story living on corridors, corner duplexes on quiet blocks, and mixed-use places that shorten commutes and lower costs. Other university towns have found that balance; we can learn from them without losing what makes us us. If you care about bond mechanics, housing affordability, zoning reform, and restoring trust in local government, this conversation offers a practical roadmap and a hopeful tone. Subscribe, share with a friend who cares about city building, and leave a review with the one change you’d prioritize next.

Transcript

Welcome And Bond Recap

Aquatic Center Case For Competitiveness

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Welcome back to the Radical Moderate podcast. I am your host, Pat O'Brien, and this is going to be episode two with uh Fayeville, Arkansas Mayor Molly Ron. And we kind of we kind of left on a cliffhanger. We were right in the middle of talking about this bond issue that for those that didn't uh kind of set the table, if you didn't listen last week, uh you're in your first year as mayor, you've identified lots of needs, but there was a sales tax that had been paying for previous bond. And because of uniqueness or changes really in Arkansas law, you can only go to the voters at certain times. You made the decision that in March of 26, you're going to do this bond issue. And we had gotten into one of the specifics was it about an aquatics.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

An aquatic center, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

An aquatic center. And you had made the argument that you're in a region of called Northwest Arkansas, and that some of the other cities in the region had that, and you you felt like you're losing out telling that argument. Let's let's just say to a little role play, let's say that I'm a voter and I'm still not convinced. Like give me your best argument. And can the can the aquatic center be uh taken out of it? Is it how are people actually going to vote? Explain the process of their auctions.

How The Nine Ballot Items Work

SPEAKER_00 1:31

So I'm going to give you two two inches. The first I'm going to to pick back off where we left um left back up in our in our time together last time. Um it being competitive within the region and also um being competitive for our employers. When I talk to, this is what I was saying before, when I talk to people that are hiring young professionals to come here, they are choosing where to live within this region. And let's say they have a daughter or son who is on the swim team at their high school. Let's say um it's somebody that um is recovering from an injury. And one of the ways that they do their, you know, therapy or their recovery is that they work out in a pool three days a week and that's part of their PT. Or, you know, swimming is just a part of the culture of their family. We can't meet that need adequately in Fayetteville. And so those are the type of things, believe it or not, that people look at and make a decision about when they are choosing where to live. So it isn't, and and we know this to be true. It's more than just anecdotal. We have seen data on this. Um, and so the second part of your question is what happens if it if it's sort of the mechanics of how you vote. So when you go and you vote um in in March, there will be nine items on the ballot and you vote on each issue separately. So it's a$320 million,$325 million total bond package, but each individual item. And so what I know that you're gonna do, Pat, is you're gonna go through and you're gonna vote yes for all nine. But you could, you have you have the ability to vote for each one single, uh say singly. There is one exception. The very first thing voters will be voting on is the refinancing piece. And that is question one, and that is the ability to roll over what we are still have outstanding on the last bond because we have paid it off early. It hasn't yet matured. What we is rolling that over into this next bond. That's the refinancing question. If the refinancing question does not pass, it does not matter. Everything else that doesn't matter, it does not matter what what is voted on it, you don't have the percentage down ballot.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

So with the with these individual items, are you saying that some of them could pass and get funded? But if there's more than 50 plus one no on any particular item, it doesn't pass.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

It doesn't pass and you you get less of a um, yeah, and then the bond, but the bond initiative becomes smaller. Yes. I certainly hope that doesn't happen um because you know, a great deal of time and um effort and community input went into figuring out, you know, what are the city's needs right now. And so I certainly think that would be a disappointment. But yes, that is correct.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Well, I think it's interesting. I don't remember voting and having an issue with that much complexity before. Uh I think that's interesting. You're giving the voters more choice. Yeah. So it's not just, you know, there could be six of the nine things they want to vote for, but they're like, well, I'm gonna vote no because I just the three I I can't live with. You're saying they could vote on eight of the nine.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

They could vote on eight of the nine as long as the first as long as the one of the eight that they voted yes for was that refinancing question. And I and I also want to say it doesn't change what you, the taxpayer, are paying. I mean, i i if you go out keep plugging sonic, I promise. I mean, I've I I don't think I can ethically take your free drink.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

I literally, for the people listening, I am not giving her anything to plug Sonic. People just love us. I mean, what are you gonna do?

Taxes, Refinancing, And What Fails Means

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Well, he has a massive sonic cup filled with Sonic ice. He hasn't offered me any of the it you are going to pay the same thing at the gas station, at the you know, car service place, at the when you go buy a new pair of shoes, you know, if seven pass or if nine pass. So it does not lower to to tack to only a few of them to pass does not lower your taxes.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Dick, would it would the bond just get paid off faster? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Well, let me say there is a lot going on with this bond issue. So good luck, good luck in in, you know, uh communicating to the voters, and I'm sure there'll be a campaign. I at a minimum, I'd like to have you back maybe after, and and whether whether it passes or not.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

After it passes, where we're gonna we're putting that optimism out there.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

I'm trying to not, you know, go one way or another.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

It's gotta be neutral.

Pivot To Housing Affordability

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Trying to be, but and and I will look at it in a very serious manner, and and you know, I think it's interesting that you have those individual choices, but you mentioned something earlier, and with it was the word affordable. And I really want to I want to do a deep dive on this. Okay. I know that when you ran, you part of your platform was that housing was maybe wasn't affordable, wasn't enough of it, and and just housing was something that you wanted to really bring attention to. You've been in an office. What what have you learned so far? And then because I you talked about trying to listen to people, listening to staff, et cetera. What are you hearing and what potential solutions do are you seeing at the local level in Fayetteville?

Defining “Affordable” For Different Groups

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Ooh, I'm glad you asked that. So, yes, so I ran on housing um as a platform. I um made the case and I think doubled down on a couple of different videos, maybe even a podcast I was on at the time, about how um local governments can absolutely impact change in the area of housing. Um, I'm 10 months in and I absolutely still believe that. And I'm proud of what we have done this far. Um, Fayetteville is the first uh city in the state, to the very best of my knowledge, to hire a chief housing officer that works directly with the mayor's office that is looking at housing all across the board. Um it's puzzling to me that one of the challenges in talking about housing Pat is that it means something different. Like it I'm being very, very, very simple and at a very basic level. The words that we use when we talk about it mean something different to everyone, depending upon your background, your demographics, where you are, what job you do. I will tell you what I mean. I met with a group of business leaders on, um, I believe it was about a week ago, and they were talking about trouble um uh keeping their new talent in Fayetteville and losing them to other areas of northwest Arkansas because they said we just don't have enough affordable homes. If we had more homes at the$300,000 to$350,000 level available, we could keep them here. Now, this was a man that runs a company that employs probably between 300 and 350 people. And he used the word affordable to mean a$300,000 home. And he's not wrong in that for the wages that he is paying, there is not enough housing stock. That is the amount, that is the dollar amount that some of his employees can afford. And they're they don't they're not seeing it in the market, so they're going elsewhere. I was at a meeting two days before that talking to a group of people that are working with our unhoused neighbors, people that literally don't have a roof over their heads, right? And are camping outside and trying to solve the situation, you know, with overcrowded shelters. And when they talk about affordable homes, I can guarantee you they don't mean 300,000, right? But yet they also are saying we need affordable housing. And so neither of them is wrong about what the city needs more of. We need more of both of those things, but so much misunderstanding and disconnect is because we're talking about two different problems. And what I want to do is try to talk about all of it. Yes, we have a housing crisis. Yes, that means we have too many unhoused neighbors. Yes, that means we need to help them have more safe, secure, sanitary places to go. Full stop. Yes, it also means that we have a housing production problem and we are not building enough new homes. And so it is troubling for me when I hear um my fellow elected officials talk about housing and wanting, you know, we have a housing crisis, we need more housing, and then voting against things that allow us to build more housing. So that's really frustrating.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

And I think are you talking about other mayors? Are you talking about people that you need their help? You want to name some names?

SPEAKER_00 10:22

I I I think I guess what I mean it I guess what I mean is that it is a di it is a dynamic problem with a lot of nuance and more than we we can walk and chew gum at the same time. We can make investments as a city into critical water and infrastructure and transportation upgrades like this bond initiative does, we can make those investments because if we do not make those investments, we're going to end up like other cities to the north of us that have a moratorium on building housing because they don't have adequate infrastructure to do it. So, as my friend Mervyn Jeb Raj, who, if he has not already been on the podcast, he would be a great guest for you. He's at the Center for Business and Economic Research at the Walton College of Business at the University of Arkansas. What a mouthful. But he talks about being able to, you know, if you want to build more housing, you have to start underground first. We can do that in this bond and also make sure that we are increasing our funding and our outreach to programs that directly work with those individuals that are experiencing homelessness.

Infrastructure First To Enable Housing

SPEAKER_01 11:26

So let me I'm glad we're gonna do a deep dive. Let me throw out a couple things, kind of thinking also from a national perspective. So just I ran some quick research and you see some stats of let's call it around$5 million, what I'll call homes and bigger housing, uh, that there's a gap, and that maybe in 2022, 1.4 million homes were built, but one point eight 1.8 million households were for people get married, they're having children, they need a house. So in one year, you're 400,000 to the bad with the gap. But then, and and this is just you know some searches I pulled up real quick. It did separately give me the statistic to say it's more like seven million if you're talking extremely low income. Right. And so the the the internet machines that I use kind of use the same uh bifurcation that you just use. So at least you're on the same page with them. Let's talk first about uh and we'll try to get to both, but let's talk first about the home part. So I'm wondering if the Great Recession, and with which of course was started with a housing boom, oversupply, and this is what happens with capitalism. If you don't regulate it properly, it it can overheat. And so you get too much production. It looks like a lot of people went out of business, and I the stats I'm saying is maybe a million workers in that industry said no one's gonna pay us, so we're gonna go do something else. And whatever it is, wherever they came from or whatever they were doing, they chose to do something else. Is that a big part of the issue, or would you say no? We've kind of gotten past that 15 years later. Is the Great Recession still a problem today for the housing market?

SPEAKER_00 13:30

You know, that is a great question, and I'm not an economist, and so I'm not sure. I want to be.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Really, the whole thing here is I just I want people to call me an economist. I have no training in it.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

So I you know, I uh I'm gonna make what I think is an education, I'm gonna give you a little bit of a politician's answer and say, probably, right? Probably. There is probably some aspect of that that is still lingering. Um, I don't spend, frankly, a lot of time worrying about why how we got here, or worrying about like, is this a holdover from a recession or if this is a new problem? I spend a tremendous amount of time focusing on where we're gonna go because we are here. We are in this situation where we don't have the right mix of housing types, and we also um don't have the right, it's not just price point, we also don't have the right types of housing. So there are a majority of areas in Fayetteville right now where it is against city ordinance to build a duplex. You cannot do it. So it means we are telling people who own a piece of land, you can't build a home that would, you can't build a structure that would allow for two families to live there. If you're gonna build here, you have to make it single family. And that's fine and good. And single family homes are great. I live in a single family home. You probably live in a single family home. But why are we making it so difficult for people who don't want that or maybe can't afford that? Why is that so hard? And so those are the type of regulatory things that the city is absolutely in control of that I think we can do to make the market a little bit better for people.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Have you uh, and I'm sure you're right, how so you since you've been in office, I presume you've been trying to identify these various scenarios. What have you found so far? And have you already produced uh ordinances to try to attack the the problem?

Zoning Barriers And Missing Middle

Permitting Fixes And Housing Authority Reset

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Yes, what I have found so far is a um I'm chuckling because I am thinking about how I sometimes feel that the most important aspect of my job is going to be doing things that, you know, the old proverb of like you're planting seeds um that will, you know, under the shade of for trees under the shade of which you shall not sit. I mean, I'm butchering it, but you know that that thought, I mean, it of how much of what we're doing now, I'm like, man, this is gonna be a real gift for the person that's mayor after me, right? Um, because it is a we didn't get here overnight and we're not gonna get out of it overnight. I am proud of a lot of what we've done. We've made it easier for uh prefabricated homes to be able to come on the market. Um, we are working on legislation right now. It's in our long-range planning committee trying to figure out what makes sense for manufactured homes. How do you, you know, is there a way in which those make sense in our city? How does that um you know, how does that, how does that fit into a piece of the puzzle? We have um made it significantly easier in terms of our process to get through the to get through the permit approvals for people that are building. And then on the um low income side of things, Favel's housing authority had been in a um a real problematic place for a very long time that had a lot of changes in leadership. They have a lot of properties that are run down that are not, that are frankly are not fit for people to live in. And housing authorities, I believe uh federal housing authorities can be some of those most important tools that we have for low-ingum and low-income individuals. And so we made uh the first of its kind a um contribution to the housing authority earlier this year to help settle some outstanding debt that they have so that they can begin to move forward. We have plans in the works now on a partnership of how to rehab and rehabilitate or or re, you know, remedy in some form or fashion some of the places that they own. Um and we're doubling down on our investments on doubling down is probably not the right phrase. We're also re-um just looking at the relationships that we have with the nonprofit organizations that provide direct care and help to um unhoused individuals to see how can the city be a better partner. And we also, uh something I'm excited about that has never been done before uh in Fayetteville, I don't think it's ever been done in the state. Um, but um our understanding it is, is it is completely legal. So we certainly don't want to get uh anybody's heckles raised in it is that identifying pieces of city-owned land that have been un underutilized and making those available and saying, hey, you know, pitch us, give us your proposal. How would you help make more affordable housing on this um on this spot um if the cost of land weren't so tremendous of a of a barrier?

SPEAKER_01 18:24

So, like are you saying you might potentially cut them a deal?

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Um I think we have to be really careful in the language that we use.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

You wouldn't you wouldn't say cut a deal.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

We have to consider fair compensation. You know, there are legal requirements that we have to stick to. I think what we are saying is that we are open for business in terms of wanting to partner with you, wanting public-private partnerships to figure out how we can help identify this piece of land pre-entitled to where we can work together to um build affordable housing units. So I think that's how I would say it.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Well, one of my theses, if you will, with this podcast is that complicated problems typically have complicated answers. And it sounds like from a government perspective, you're trying to do what you probably would see as the low-hanging fruit, the stuff that just spikes a lot of common sense. You have to, it's a democracy, so you got to go through a legislative process to do that. My question here is somebody's got to build the house. And so, like I'm in the restaurant business and everybody thinks they can start a restaurant. And a lot of people do, not I think people know, well, I can't build a house. First off, I don't have a license. There's a lot of capital at stake. I'm sure you or your uh housing officer are talking to builders. Yeah. What are they telling you that they need? And andor are they saying, hey, we're we're bullish. We we do want to start building more houses, or do they give you reasons? No, we don't want to build more houses and it's for XYZ reasons.

Public Land Partnerships For Housing

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Um, what I hear is that they do want to build more houses and that Fayetteville needs to make it easier for them to do it, right? So it's one thing to go in and and and develop a house. It's another to have to um navigate through convoluted or sometimes contradictory um regulations in our city code, um, to have to jump through the hoops of talking to four different partners to get uh departments, excuse me, to get permit approval. And so I think that we can streamline that process because I do think there are absolutely people that that want to build in Fayetteville and want to build more homes. And you said something, Pat, you said complicated problems of which housing the housing crisis is, without question, a complicated problem. Often have complicated solutions. And that is true. But also I would say that the solution is um, you know, there's that difference between simple and complex, like simple and complex, like easy and hard. The answer is um not difficult. I mean, it's it's we need to build more of them, right? We don't have enough homes for people to live in. We need to build more of them. Right. That is simple as a lot of people. We have demand, we need supply. Right. We need supply. Um, but making sure we have the right mix of supply is where that complexity comes into it.

Builder Incentives And Streamlined Process

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Let's kind of want to segue then because and I'll I'll give another thesis of mine. Uh, like I said, I really want to be known as an economist. Uh I'll start telling people you are just say it and it'll we'll speak it into existence. But I have a uh question or a thesis, if you will, that if you're a home builder and you're just looking at your timeline and your use of capital, and somebody comes to you and says, I would like to build a$600,000 home. And then you're like, okay, and you give them a quote. And then somebody else comes in and they're like, I would like to build a$200,000 home. Having built a couple of things, but not really have any expertise in that area. I'm wondering if that home builder is saying, it's not that much faster to build a$200,000 home. I have a thicker profit, maybe not the percentage, but the dollar amount on the$600,000 home. It's just more profitable. And if that plays into the decision, so that's a thesis, but I also want to give you an opportunity to talk about the the people who are never going to live, they can't afford a$300,000 home. But we don't want them unhoused. We don't want them on the streets. Talk to us about those things and how much have you gotten into that, or or what are where do you want to get into as you proceed through your term as mayor?

SPEAKER_00 22:33

I want to see more multifamily units being built in Fayetteville that are not restricted to the student population. And when I say not restricted to the student population, I mean specifically that are not rented exclusively by the bedroom. I want to see more, I'm saying it again, more multifamily, meaning apartments, essentially, um units built in Fayetteville that are rented where, you know, families or individuals who are not students who are not interested in renting by the bedroom could live. And I think that's a huge piece of it. And you are right. Um, I am sure that in looking at it, you know, sometimes it's it's gonna be much harder to build a uh an affordable home than it is a you know a higher priced home. That's why more of them, what we know is that more of them can help drive that cost down. When you have um a smaller um supply, it the price of everything is going to go up to where if you increase that supply, people can be a little bit more competitive.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Do we need do we need to go up? So like I build vertically? Yeah. I you ever been to Manhattan?

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, yes, that is not the yes, I have. And what I will tell you is that it's all and and know what, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

It it there's but but here's where I didn't mean to unless you mean Manhattan, Kansas.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Right.

More Multifamily Beyond Student Rentals

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Well, what I really meant was that you know, some people would hear, especially in the south, oh New York City, and I would never want to live there. Yeah, but it wasn't always like that. There, they the the land is compressed, and so they loved being there for a number of reasons, and so they went up because they couldn't go out. Right. And I think in the South, particularly, we see a 10-story apartment complex, and we think this is a horrible thing. But if you go to a San Francisco or some of these cities have been around a long, long, long time, it's just very normal and it's much more affordable than having a big yard and that sort of thing. And and I I'm not talking about skyscrapers, but do we need to go up in our building?

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Yeah, yes. And and I'm talking about, I mean, you know, you used sort of extreme examples. Well, I we don't have to go to San Francisco or to New York to talk about that. We can go to we can go to Chattanooga, we can go to Madison, we can go to uh Raleigh, North Carolina, we can go to Des Moines, I mean, we can go to other places and talk about the hype that I'm talking about is like three stories, four stories. I mean, Fayetteville is uncomfortable with anything more than two stories, largely. We really are, and we have to get beyond that.

Building Up Versus Sprawl Mindset

SPEAKER_01 25:17

We have to. Well, as a person who went to school in Fayetteville and who lives there and lives in Fayetteville now, I I agree with that. And I think I don't know, it's it's a mindset change. And and I'll just I I've bet I've held back quite a bit, but I as we move toward the end of episode two, I'll give you a little bit of my opinion. I think Fayetteville's an amazing place with a tremendous geography. We've got the the flagship, university, and and when our sports are are good, they're really good. And even when they're bad, they're at least entertaining, like a car wreck can be entertaining. We have so much to offer, but I have felt over the decades that I've had my relationship with Fayetteville that there have been times where there's people who who have this longing for the small town that doesn't bustle and and doesn't have a lot of the issues that anyone has when you're growing. That's just not my mentality. I understand people like that, but I'm a I want to be an entrepreneur. I want to be thinking of like the next best thing. And I don't like sprawl. I've been to Los Angeles and I think it's terrible. But there are ways to do it. And and maybe I'll have you now on another episode because you mentioned places like Chattanooga and Madison. Give me a give me a 60-second snippet of what what you're talking about with places, what they've done.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Yeah, so I don't want to I don't want to those cities specifically, but I think there are cities that we can point to that are more similar to Fayetteville in size, in population, in demographics, that are all facing what we're facing, that have all have, you know, a lot of university towns, I mean, not in the case of Chattanooga, but in other places that are having to deal, grapple with these very same things. And there are lessons that we can learn with how they are building, how they are changing their development codes, how they are changing their city ordinances to encourage development, um, to build up, to avoid sprawl. Um, but we we do not, we are unique. We love to think that we are unique and we are unique and we are awesome, but we are not so singular and unique that there aren't lessons to be learned from other places.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And I, yeah, uh we'll leave it, we'll leave it at that. As we kind of got a just a maybe two more minutes left in the podcast. We've talked about a lot of things. I appreciate you being on the podcast. You're my first elected official.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Oh, I feel so I feel so privileged.

Learning From Peer Cities

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Absolutely, absolutely. So, what would you like to say to the audience about what you're trying to accomplish? And in a frame it like this when I've asked you about housing, I saw your face light up. I could I could feel the passion. You you already have like a lot of good initial answers, but there's probably a lot of stuff that you're saying. I I there's a lot of stuff I got to go get these great ideas from other mayors and other places. What would you like to leave the audience with? What do you want your you only get one term guaranteed as mayor? Yeah. What do you want it to be? What what is the what impression do you want the the people who put the trust in you, what do you want to leave them with after your first term?

Vision: Hopeful Growth And Trust In Government

SPEAKER_00 28:31

I want to leave people with a sense of um excitement and hope about Fayetteville's future that can hopefully temper some of the angst that I feel um a lot of people in Fayetteville have that is just rooted in this nostalgia. So, Fayetteville, we take our heritage um, you know, it it seriously. We are so many of us in Fayetteville are nostalgic for being, you know, a small$30,000 or$30,000, 30,000 people, 30,000 person college town and nestled in the hills. And we are growing and the die has been cast, and that is not who we are. And I want people to embrace change and look forward to the future with hope and know that we can still hang on to our values, hang on to what makes us special. We can still be who we are, be the Fayetteville that we love and grow. And I hope I can leave people with that spirit that it's gonna be okay. The change isn't all bad.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Well, I I think you've got a really good chance of success. I know how tough that road can be, but I would just encourage you to keep listening to people, but also just leading them and just saying, here's what I I've listened, and now here's what I think we need to do. I got to make a decision. And if you'll just trust in me, because then you put your faith in me, uh, I think a lot of good things will will happen for Fayeville in the future.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Thank you so much, Pat. And you're my favorite economist, by the way. But I thought of one more thing. I thought of one more thing I really want to say, but now I know I'm out of time. Can I say one more thing?

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Meg it quick.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

I want Fayetteville to restore people's faith in how government can work. We are living at a time when what is happening nationally is regardless of what side of the political aisle you are on. You can't look to a lot of places in our government right now for inspiration and for trust. And I want Fayetteville to remind people that, like, this is what democracy that cares about people can look like and how we function and how transparent we are and how seriously we take our work as public servants.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

I love it. And I think that's a great way to close. Uh an impassioned mayor uh Molly Ron of the great city of Fayetteville, Arkansas. Folks, thanks for listening this week. That is the POV of P.O.B.