Ep. 21 - Radical Honesty: Can Friends Still Talk Politics?

What happens when two close friends, raised on Razorback baseball and drive-in burgers, stand on opposite sides of America’s loudest arguments? We open the door to a raw, respectful conversation that refuses caricature and trades hot takes for honest questions. Pat grew up center-left in a political orbit; Scott found his footing in conservative-leaning franchise circles. That mix of shared roots and split perspectives becomes the perfect lab to test the hardest topics; 2020, January 6, media bias, immigration, and the money-soaked machinery of modern campaigns.

We start with the origin story: Arkansas towns, restaurant families, and a spontaneous road trip to the College World Series that forged the trust to argue without flinching. From there we get specific. Pat lays out why he sees January 6 as disqualifying for Trump. Scott condemns the chaos but focuses on how censorship, editing, and platform bans fueled conservative distrust. Instead of shouting, we slow down and separate claims: responsibility, response time, rhetoric, and what evidence would actually change a mind. The aim is clarity, not conversion.

Then we go wider: tribes and brands, and how business incentives rhyme with party incentives. Why do some candidates thrive on attention while more qualified choices stall out? We talk DeSantis, Rubio, and the case of Asa Hutchinson to show how narrative and capital steer outcomes. Pat voices a low-probability fear about undermining future elections; Scott counters with worries about mail-in voting and voter ID. Both of us set red lines anchored in the Constitution and transparent process, because if the guardrails fail, everything fails.

This is a guided tour through polarization that keeps the human at the center. You’ll hear steelmanning over straw men, curiosity over contempt, and a practical blueprint for arguing with people you love: restate the other side fairly, ask better questions, and be willing to update when the facts demand it. If you’re exhausted by outrage but still hungry for substance, press play, ride shotgun on the Omaha drive, and join us in the messy middle where friendships last and ideas get sharper. If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who disagrees with you, and leave a review telling us the toughest topic you want us to tackle next.

Transcript

Odd-Couple Origins In Arkansas

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Welcome back, everybody, to the Radical Moderate Podcast. I am your host, Pat O'Brien, and today I am joined by one of my closest friends in the world, Scott Davis. Welcome to the podcast. Man, thank thanks for having me on. So let me let me frame it here a little bit so people understand why why is Pat having his friends on the podcast? We have a nickname. We call ourselves the Restaurant Razorback Blood Brothers. There's a history for that. I'm gonna let you get into it uh here in a minute. But I want to kind of tell the audience the thing about us is we're we're kind of an odd couple, but we've got these things that are like super similar about each other. And then we have these things that are very, very different about you know where we come came from and how we grew up. So to start off with, uh, we're both from Arkansas, grew up here and all that, but you're from Heber Springs, which is town six, seven thousand people. I'm from Jacksonville, which is uh a town of 30,000, but in the big county next to Little Rock. Um we're both the sons of restaurant people. So my dad was a McDonald's guy. Your dad was and still is a sonic guy. Uh, we both worked in our businesses as teenagers, but then I end up coming up to Northwest Arkansas and going to college and law school at the University of Arkansas. You end up doing a little bit extra higher ed, but kind of quickly go to, man, I I just do better just going straight to work and trying to build a business empire up. And then um just personal stuff, uh, people who know me, I was single my whole life until just not quite two years ago at this point. You got married really young. Then you get into stuff like you grew up where guns and your dad teaching you how to use guns is very common. Me, not at all. Um, but kind of the big thing, and the reason why I wanted to have you on today is when we start to, when we started to get to know each other, we quickly realized from a political standpoint, we had really different opinions. I'll just, I mean, I'm radical moderate, but I'll just say I was kind of a center left and tell, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you were coming at things kind of from a very Trump, pro-Trump type perspective. So that's the frame. Why don't you go back and tell everybody, like, why do you, why do you think we became friends? How the hell did that happen?

Franchise Families And Diverging Paths

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Now, uh, you know, I think, I think we we've we found that, you know, I tell people all the time with uh, you know, with you know, I I could lose everything tomorrow. And and and I know that you would have my back. And and uh and I just I've always felt like we've even though we may differ on on some political views, some policy issues, um, we still have so much in common. And you know, I always tell people, uh, especially whether it's you know, especially in a conservative world, or even if I'm, you know, uh, you know, talking to somebody a little bit more liberal, uh I always use us as an example of, you know, almost that it should be the example that the country is is led with, in my opinion, these days. And being willing to have conversations, even if they're tough conversations where we're polar opposites on our uh opinions on on that subject, we can still do it in a respectful manner um and um and and not tearing down the the other one because we we still love each other, you know, at that at the end of the day. And and um and I I think that's what's made our relationship so special over the years.

Omaha Road Trip Sparks Hard Talks

SPEAKER_01 3:51

I agree, and to me, and I don't know if you if you put it the same exact time frame, but it was uh the summer of 2018, the Arkansas Razorback baseball team got to go to the College World Series in Omaha. It was the finals, and I don't know if I called you or you called me, but we were constantly communicating, and I just said, hey, I got a place to stay and can figure out tickets. Do you want to just jump in a car and go? And you're like, yeah. And so for people that don't know how the College World Series works, it's not like the Super Bowl. You don't know when it's gonna be. You in terms of you don't know if your team's gonna make it. I guess there's that. You have very little notice. So we just jumped in the car and it's probably like a maybe a nine-hour drive. Right. Both ways, we spend it, I think like Sunday night to we got home on a Friday because there were so we spent a lot of time together. And it, you know, we're talking about Sonic, which is how we got to know each other, but then you kind of run out of things business-wise to talk about. And so I think that I that's when I remember first having those conversations. I don't know if you remember it differently or the same.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

No, no, I absolutely. And uh, you know, starting with the Razorbacks, which we don't, I don't think do enough of the winning, but we we we we love to win. Yeah. And uh, and you know, and I and I think that's uh, you know, again, uh when we when we talk about our political thoughts and and views and where we want to see our country, um, you know, we don't know what what it's gonna be like, you know, six months from now, four years from now, whatever. But at the end of the day, we want to win. And uh, you know, and I and that again, that's where I think we better have, you know, be able to have those conversations and um to you know to get to that spot where we are.

Business Tribe Versus Political Tribe

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Well, and I think, you know, we'll we'll probably talk about Sonic a little bit later, but to kind of go to the heart of the matter, uh, and I don't, you know, I I've grown up around people who I would I would generally say uh identify with the Democratic Party, people who are probably center left to liberal. And that I think you just become that's your friend group, you know, that's who you're hanging around with. And of course, I was a political candidate. So those were the people who were supporting me, financing my campaign and all that. It's just natural, I think, that you're gonna gravitate toward toward that, your whether it's your tribe or how you want to describe it. I think for me, what was unique was after politics, then I get into Sonic. And just generally speaking, I think more the Sonic franchisees tend to be more conservative, which is not a big surprise. So you and I, I think we're jiving mainly on talking about the business and how to do that stuff, and then realized probably out of curiosity, like, hey, you know, you think about this differently and and why is that the case? So when I say I want to go to the heart of the matter, and I I gave you a heads up on this, so we're not we're not you know throwing a curveball at each other, but I I thought about like how to explain to people who might, let's just kind of use broad terms of people who are uh a Democrat or you could call them more progressive/slash liberal, versus people who starting back in say 2015, 2016, would proudly identify themselves as very Trump supportive MAGA, make America great. You and I, if you want to put it into each other's buckets, I'm more on the person who's the Democrat center left progressive, you're more the Trump MAGA. So what I think we've come to here in this country, with in too many relationships, is hey, I'm gonna now judge that other person. And I'm gonna say, well, if you voted for Joe Biden, I now know everything about you, I know how everything works, and vice versa. If you're if you will put on that red hat and you say I voted for Trump, I know everything about you. I don't think that's true, but I think that's kind of where we're at. So I but then I start you start breaking that down. And to me, I want to focus on one thing and get your take on it first. And that goes back to the 2020 elections, and just I don't think anybody's surprised, but I've never voted for Donald Trump. But at 16, 2024, never voted for him. Um, but I hoped in 2016 and I hope now in his second term that that he does well for the country. But in 2020, he loses. My take on it is he says that there was fraud, and he says, I just hey the election wasn't true uh an accurate reflection of what really happened. I really won the presidency. There's something like 50 or 55 lawsuits where he's going to court saying, you know, see it my way, and and none of them did. And then you get to January 6th, which was the day that they're going to certify the vote. My take on it, Scott, is that he was in the wrong and he kind of agged people on to storm the Capitol, and and then he was really putting it all on Mike Pence saying, do the right thing is like, what do you mean, do the right thing? Like, I'm certifying the election, that's my job. And then at a minimum, in my opinion, when the crowd was getting out of control, I think he was slow to respond. I think he was slow to call at the National Guard, et cetera. I think it was really, really, really bad, really kind of disqualifying. That's certainly how I felt then. You're gonna have a different take. And I want, I want to hear that. And I think the audience wants to hear it. How how do we even talk about this? And how do we still be friends when we probably are gonna have a different take on this?

Setting The Stage: 2020 And Jan 6

SPEAKER_00 9:42

But give me your take. Well, I mean, I uh obviously it's it's it's an event in the country that you never wanted to happen. Um, you know, I think from you know, from the conservative point of view with the though, too, we obviously we're going through a crazy time with COVID and and and and an excess of of mail-in votes. Uh, you know, when I talk to a lot of conservatives, it's not it's not that they feel like that even necessarily Donald Trump won that election. It was just there was different things going on. There, you know, perception can become reality, whether that's a real thing or or or not. Um, we've seen things like, you know, uh uh some censorship of if you remember, even of Trump and and you know, the the social platforms when he's you know he's pulled off of Twitter, they're or they're you know taking taking his his comments down. Um in fact, even recently we've seen, you know, with the BBC and and I know he's had lawsuit after lawsuit going after these people, but but literally taking um things that he said on that day and and editing the video to where it it was literally it comes out completely different. And uh, and you know, and so I think that, you know, um, you know, I think that's that's I think what the regular average Joe voter, which I think if you took a poll, uh number one, I think, you know, with Donald Trump and and and people that have voted for him since back in, I guess what now, since I mean we're over a decade now. Right. Um, you know, it's all it's almost one of those things that that uh people are kind of scared to even tell you that that's who they voted for. Right. Right. You know, and and and I in in my personal opinion, I don't think it should be like like that in, you know, in in the country. And and uh so I think, you know, again, I I try to be objective, whether it's it's not that I'm a MAGA, you know, I'm gonna, you know, I believe everything Donald Trump says, everything he, you know, he does, but but if I'm being real on what what draws me to it is is you know, is simply I you know, I think I I like his policy uh bet better than what the alternative was. And and I think he can he can relate with the average American um more than than what we've seen and you know with with some of these other candidates on on the other side. And um and so yeah, I think that's the that that that that was kind of my my takeaway from it. And um, you know, and and then you thought it was the end of Donald Trump. And that in fact, a lot of Republicans would have would have told you that. But um, it was one of those things where I think, you know, we've seen it with um, you know, the 34 felonies and and and and and the attack, I mean, it was literally, it's almost, you know, it comes across, I think, again, this perception that can turn into reality of of there is whether whatever it is, an establishment or a group of people that this guy, they they're trying to get rid of him. And um, you know, and and and then I think that became even more polarizing as we go into, you know, then the the you know, the four years under President Biden, and and um, you know, and then we get during the election, Donald Trump almost gets, you know, assassinated.

Scott’s View: Perception And Censorship

SPEAKER_01 13:01

Uh yeah, and let me on on that point, on the assassination stuff, and I talked about this the previous episode, that that was the low point of it all, and in terms of whether or not I agree with you that, you know, he is a martyr and that all of the things that were brought against him were wrong. I think it I think there's a a debate about that. I think you could see that both ways. I've said this before. I am so happy that that bullet didn't, I know that we're talking about Butler. I'm so glad that the bullet grazed him instead of hit him and killed him, because that would that would have been just horrendous. And and regardless of what you think about him as a president with his policies, regardless of what you think about him as a person and the things he says, that I think you transform you don't want any you want anybody murdered ever. But when you are a former president and and then now again president, you are representing the country. And that is just that is terrible for our country. And so, and I don't I don't hang out with anyone who would have cheered that on or made shitty comments, like, you know, I wish the boat would hit him. But I did see stuff like that, you know, and I'm like, come on, guys, like that's that's out of bounds. Like you can't, it's kind of like the Charlie Kirk thing. It it was yeah, it was a tragedy, it was just a tragedy, and just like leave it at that. But then some people piled on and like, you know, were happy about it, and and I I can't deal with that. Like, that's nonsense to me.

Martyrdom, Violence, And Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 14:43

Well, and I think and and and back to you know, again, where we've been at with Trump, you know, and leading the country, you know, we we seen we've seen what happened with just what you're saying there with Charlie Kirk, that if I had to speculate and guess, we would have seen the same thing if Donald Trump would have been killed that day. I think there would have been celebration. You think people you think you would I think I think there'd have been a a group of a percentage of, you know, again, it's it's i it's just how how polarizing politics I think has has become in in in this country. We are trained, and it's you know, in in a sense, whether it's how we were raised in the circle that we're around there, or when we go to school, you know, or we're going to college or, you know, whatever it is, we're probably going to gravitate a little bit more towards what we're around that as opposed to being, you know, if we're something completely different from that, we're kind of the outcast now. Yeah. So I think politically in our country, you know, the disappointing thing for me is when I look at it from a global perspective, is it's almost like we're supposed to hate the other side so bad that we'll take the the least bad option. That's what that that's what we're looking for. You know, uh probably a big you know chunk of the country that, and I'm even, you know, guilty of this somewhere, I don't know all the ins and outs and everything about that candidate. But if it's got the you know, the R by it, then I'm yeah, I'm going, all right, well, just click, click, click that one off. And I think, I think it's something that we've got to be, you know, we've got to be able to have conversations in this country and and on both sides of the aisle. Um, and then I think we've got to be a little bit more subjective of what, even if it's on our side, what what what are they doing? And um, you know, and and do I agree with that or or do I want to see it going in a different way? And the final thing I'll say, man, is you know, we've we've got to the point where there's so much money involved. It's almost like whoever's the least bad candidate that has the most money behind them and the best marketing strategy is probably gonna win the president. You could be the best candidate for president in 2028, but you'll probably, you would probably never would get there because you don't have the massive money behind you. You don't have the um uh, you know, yeah, the the marketing campaign behind you that's gonna take you uh, you know, to the to the top. I'll I'll use an example even with with Asa Hutchinson. I you know, I thought, you know, I think a lot of conservatives look at Asa as you know, kind of a uh, you know, more centered, you know, uh conservative that that's gonna have some some some liber more liberal thoughts and and stuff. Uh you know, you'd have thought that guy would have got a lot of a lot of votes in in in the last presidential election, but there's not that same kind of money and support behind it.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Well, and I think, you know, just on that point, like, you know, we're in a business with brands, and you're a so you're in Sonic, you're in Slum Chickens, and so a brand is uh a thing you're comfortable with. It's something that you're familiar with, you want to keep going back to, and and we're of course incentivized to to want to keep our customers. And so the Democrats are incentivized to want to keep their loyal followers and voters, and and vice versa, with the Republicans. So, one of the things I want to go back to, just because make sure we close the loop, what I was trying to say earlier about January 6th, is that for me, it was a seminal moment. And I don't know if you remember, but we we were on the phone with each other or we were talking that day. COVID, you're right, COVID was still going on. I was at my home office, we were talking about something else. And then I just stopped you and said, Hey, are you seeing what's going on at the Capitol? Like, and your initial reaction was like, Yeah, it's like a little protest. And in my opinion, you were kind of maybe you hadn't seen enough coverage or whatever, but you were like, it didn't seem like a big deal. Then about an hour later, I got a text from you like, hey, I've started watching, like, this is this is a problem, like this needs to be fixed. And for me, I never I'm never gonna get over it in terms of I'm gonna lay that at the feet of Donald Trump. I think he's responsible for that. Now, what I will say is the majority of the American public got over it because they voted for him in 2024. I I didn't get over it, but I but I got over the fact that I mean he's the president, you know. I I'm not saying that he didn't win in 24. He he obviously did. I want to just ask you though, are you saying that you think his role in it has been maybe overdramatized? Or are you saying, look, maybe he didn't have the best, maybe he didn't do the right things on that day, but I'm just looking past that to the bigger picture of what I think he can do as president. Like, where do you stand on that?

Polarization, Labels, And Money In Politics

SPEAKER_00 19:47

Yeah, I mean, I I I don't agree with what happened on that day. And um, you know, and I'm not President Trump's spokesperson. I I I would have recommended some some different, you know, saying some different things and a little bit different rhetoric. And um, you know, obviously he he ended up coming out of it and you know, four years later he was the president again. So uh, you know, I'd make the argument on the on I've told you before on the Democrat side, might have been better off if he would have won that that first one. And and you'd really, as, as a lot of them would say, turn the page. Um, but uh, but now I you know I I think again, from when you look at the public and and and and again, perception can become reality, you know, it's that was a terrible day. I think you had a lot of Republicans condemned that that day. But then we've all we also seen it then weaponized and exaggerated. And, you know, and I and I think when you see that again, even if even if Donald Trump was in in the wrong in a lot of things that day, when you see things edited, when you see things, we're gonna weaponize that we're we're gonna we're gonna take him out in essence. I'm not saying that that you know they were responsible for getting him almost assassinated or you know, what what whatever there, but but I think it's it's it's a good example of of how we we've we've got to be able to change you know the the tone and and and how we're having these conversations, you know, in in our country today because and and I and I'm big for you know we we should always have the right to peacefully protest. And and I think we've seen that on on both sides. I'm not okay with what happened on January 6th, but I'm also not okay with what things that I've seen happen in in Minnesota or you know, all these other things that um that that are not okay. And, you know, or you know, call you know, you you see on the conservative side, you know, you're you're called Hitler and and you know, you're you're racist and you're all not say those things I'm sure exist in our country, but but I think you we're we're we're at a point in society today where I I think we're making a little bit bigger of a deal out of it than what that really is. today and talking about a smaller group that is really probably if we really knew the nuts and bolts behind it probably so small and minimal that it really shouldn't be devoting a lot of her time to well I'll I'll move on from at least in this podcast from January 6th and because I to me it what I wanted to actually do is redirect and say and I've tried to tell this to my friends who'll just call you know liberal to progressive sort of thing it was bad but Donald Trump is just going to say that his role was small in it and this sort of thing and like that's fine.

Revisiting Jan 6 Responsibility

SPEAKER_01 22:43

I mean and so he got elected again and that was kind of the final judgment my fear and and I've tried to describe it this way that there's let's say a 5% chance that this is going to happen. So that's a low chance but it's higher than zero is that we're going to get to the 2026 midterms and Donald Trump is somehow going to try to alter those whether he suspends them or just set declares from the beginning they're fraudulent like I I think there's a a chance that's going to happen and I think there's not going to be any evidence to really prove it. Now I'm saying 5% which I mean if I tell you there's a 5% chance of happening you're like so you're thinking the odds are pretty low. I'm like yeah of course on the other hand it used to be 0% chance of the odds of something like that. I we'll see right so Mike you shouldn't live life with fear of something that may never happen. But I just want to get on the record with you if he says hey we got to suspend the elections or I'm like no no it's in the Constitution we got to follow Constitution that's where I'm going to be at it and I would hope that you would be like okay Mr. President like come on man like we can't go that far.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Yeah I mean I think again I'll I'll tell you the the it we're we're talking about fear on on both sides. If we talk what are you what are you scared of what's your fear I'll just I'll just tell you like I said on the on the conservative side there you know I think you would you would probably say the same stats and percentages on on people that were worried that mail-in ballots are were were were gonna rig you know the the election or massive amounts coming in or you know illegals voting or um and you know that I think that's a good example of it um you know under you know Kamala and and and and Joe Biden for the for that four year stretch I think we can both agree as as a Republican and a Democrat that that immigration got out of line. And and and it's something that that's something that in my opinion has always been able to be a pretty bipartisan thing. But same deal you know there's there's the fear on the conservative side that well there that we got seven or eight states that they're not requiring voter ID or we're going to have all these fraudulent votes come in. Again, I'm back to the perception sometimes can become reality in our minds. And um and so I think that you know for the way I look at that you know from from both sides of the spectrum I hear what you're saying as far as you definitely don't want a third term of uh Donald Donald Trump and and you're definitely ready to turn the page after two but uh but it's uh but yeah I I again I I think that's something that you know I I just don't think that's going to be something that we'll be talking about.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

And maybe maybe it's a 1% chance which is very very low. I'm just telling you I don't think it's zero. And I do take your point.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

Well there's probably a five uh there's probably a one percent chance that it's Barack Obama the first Donald Frost for uh the 2028 presidency.

Fears Of Future Elections

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Well I'll say this um if if they you know what they could legally do the people who support Donald Trump what they could legally do is they could change the constitution saying that you can run for more terms and uh I think Donald Trump really hates Barack Obama. I think a lot of this I think a lot of this really started back when when it was at that dinner the correspondence dinner and he made fun of him and I think he hurt his ego and and not to say like that's a great reason to run for president but there's a history in this world of trying to tell someone you know you can't ever be an actor or you can't build a company and you put a big chip on somebody's shoulder giving them that motivation I wish uh President Obama hadn't done that. I really do. I don't and by the way we we're we've got a couple minutes left so kind of summarize some of your I appreciate you doing this kind of summarize some of your thoughts though on I mean are you for our audience would you say I'm a MAGA guy or would you say no I I got a lot of mega friends and I respect some things where you say man it's mostly about the policy but I do understand you have to win an election and that's just that's like a logo right I mean it's just a way to get people interested.

Immigration, Voting, And Perception

SPEAKER_00 27:04

I'm that I'm de I definitely wouldn't consider myself just the the MAGA guy or even that in general at all. You know I I look at policy things I look at a guy like Ron DeSantis running Florida that from the outside looking in, it looks like he's done a hell of a job. I look at a guy like Marco Rubio that's Secretary of State whether you like him or not he's he's he's got he's going around the world and and now he he he may be kind of the the iron fist sometimes in in how he's dealing diplomatic diplomatically with some of these people and and foreign leaders but I think there's respect there. You know so I I'll look at things like that I'll just you know for back to a guy like Donald Trump he's probably not the you know I I would agree with you the not the most qualified candidates that we've ever had to be president of the United States. Well I think what the draw to him was was that this is a big time business person that we've never had one necessarily lead our country and maybe he can place big time people around him that that that can get us good results and and then the the final thing I'll I'll say man our human instinct is when we're told no want to do the opposite. When I you know when whenever I I'm putting Clark to bed at at night and he and he wants something and I say no he's he's gonna be upset and he's probably going to try to do the opposite. And so to summarize it I think that's how the American public looked at Donald Trump was you tell me no that I cannot vote for him or he cannot be the president, well this is what I'm gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

That's yeah I never thought about it that way but that's kind of just straight human psychology is he was yeah you there was a lot of I think attempts to shame and say is in those early days and just say if you vote for Donald Trump, you're a bad person. And now looking back retrospectively that was probably the worst thing you could have done if you really didn't want Donald Trump uh to get elected for sure. Well I think uh it we've laid out I think we laid it out kind of in a good way here and I I hope man you know this like I I don't always know who's listening. I don't know what they're listening for, but the takeaway I'm I'm hoping that people get is I hope that like A, they already have someone in their life who they really do it could be a family member or a high school classmate or whatever and they they they enjoy doing stuff with them but maybe so that's kind of the basis but maybe they've shied away because they think they can't talk politics. I would just hope if there's no other takeaway from this like you and I do it all the time. And I mean there's been times where I'm like all right Scott you're trying to sell me on something here I'm not buying and not but you'll like well defend your position Pat and I'll give you the right why I'm doing it and then you'll listen and if you think it's good you'll take heed. If you think I'm full of it you'll you'll call me out. So we unfortunately on this particular episode we've run out of time so we're gonna come back uh for folks who listen this week we're gonna come back part two. I don't even know what we're gonna talk about part two. But for this week I want to thank everyone for listening to the POV of POB