Lenten Challenge - Baptism

Join Pastor Ken and Jordin as they look at baptism from a Wesleyan perspective.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Welcome everybody to another episode of our Lenton Challenge podcast. My name is Jordan, and I'm here with Pastor Ken, and we are going to be diving into this week's topic, which was baptism. And so this past Sunday, um, Pastor, you preached on baptism. We also had a baptism in our first service. And so, in light of that sermon, was there anything that you would have liked to have gotten in that just did not fit?

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Well, I tried to, I tried to cover most of all the big points. Quite a bit, yes. Uh, the the one thing that, you know, when I think about baptism and I think about the disagreements among Christians, and again, you know, some of these, once you get like that ground floor of obedience to Christ, understanding this is uh, you know, an initiation into the Christian uh faith in that sense that God's grace, you know, is is flowing through that. It seems to me that that some of the debates almost get to the point of like Jesus and the Pharisees about the Sabbath. Yeah. Like, how strict are you going to be about this word? Yeah. And and the the danger in that is that sometimes you lose the principle that goes into it of, you know, God makes these incredible promises to us. He calls us to basically mark when we give our heart to him and start on this journey and and have a way that that allows not only the individual to make that a special event, but the whole church to participate and and that. And and you know, we don't want to lose those big principles in the debate about which form you use, this, that, something else, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

It's always interesting to me because all these groups and their different opinions, like everyone thinks that God has enough grace for certain things, but like, but on this issue that we hold strongly to, God does not have enough grace for, you know, it's just like, yeah, wait a minute. Like, is you know, does God have enough grace and enough power and enough, you know, knowledge and all the things to be able to extend that in any circumstance, he'd so deems, or is it just people who follow your way that you know it almost becomes your brand to have to be able to do that? Yeah, our brand has the right usage of God's grace. But, you know, the big point that that you were kind of drawing in, and it's the thing we've seen coming back to all these topics from a Wesleyan standpoint, is don't draw a line in the sand where the Bible doesn't draw one, don't swing the pendulum too far. And so in the case of baptism, you know, you mentioned methods, meaning, etc. But the one that really gets people riled up is the babies or no babies, you know. Um and a lot of people point to, as you did in your sermon, families that we see, like so-and-so and his family was baptized. And you kind of see three views on that. Is it, well, babies had to have been there, so we shall bap baptize them, or well, we can't know, so we won't. Or, hey, we don't know, so let's not draw the line. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Yeah, yeah. And of course, we have taken the third approach in the Wesleyan tradition. And you know, when you take a an approach like our church has, where you give a lot of choice to people, some people see that as failing to make a stand. Yeah, yeah. But but you know, in a case like this, I I really don't know that's that. I I I kind of celebrate the choice in that because you know, some parents, I mean, who knows children better than the parents?

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

And some of them, I think, understand that, you know, their child might respond better one way or another. Uh, it's important for the family dynamics that they, you know, include discussing choices beforehand, or they focus on, you know, the church providing the instruction and confirmation and and so forth. And and and when it comes to those families in the Bible, I mean, I again I I don't know there's any way to nail that down. Right. The biggest argument is the idea of believer baptism and the believer has a choice.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

And then, of course, confirmation plays that role in our tradition. Yeah. Where it it it does, you know, if if a person has their child baptized as an infant, it separates the choice and the baptism.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Whereas other groups say, no, no, those two have to be together.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Um, I I don't see that as a hill to stand on.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Yeah, well, and you just see so many scriptures like, you know, don't prevent the little children from coming to me. And these things too, where it's like, like you're saying, if if families and parents especially know that they want to take that step, it to me there is not enough biblical grounding to say, no, we're not gonna do that. Right. Um, and that has really, as we've seen in, you know, the pastor search process been such a sticking point um with many of the applicants is that absolute rejection on willingness to do that. Um, and that's you know why we wanted to make sure um that we would be looking for someone who is willing to do that because, like we said, we don't we're not gonna swing that pendulum all the way. And we want that to be open for parents if they so, you know, deem.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Yeah, and and and I hate it when people get so focused on one way that they feel like they can't be part of a group that they fit with otherwise because of that. And we do see that sometimes. And and you know, I know there are groups that are very and individuals that are very passionate about it has to be this way. But again, it it kind of comes back to that, you know, was the Sabbath made for humans or humans for the Sabbath kind of thing that Jesus says, I think, in this this area. Uh another thing that came up after the the message yesterday, it's a little bit different area, uh, but I didn't mention this. Uh is that I had a person come up and say, you know, my um had a relative that was getting their citizenship and they were able to use their baptismal record as a part of that. Interesting. Well, baptismal records are official records. Wow, I agree. And so, you know, churches have to be very careful. Um, I'm pretty sure I use my uh baptismal record uh because my parents had some trouble finding my birth certificate when I got my passport.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

And you know that it it kind of points out how that, you know, in Western Europe especially, um baptism became kind of the way people registered.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Because the government and the church sometimes were together, which was part of the opposition to infant baptism among some groups, is that uh these groups like Roman Catholic Lutheran were kind of seen as too wrapped up in the government kind of aspect.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Yeah, that was like your citizenship and your spiritual citizenship were just kind of all one, especially when um, you know, that started shifting towards the government-regulated religion. Right. And a big essence then of the this country is um, you know, trying to not that Christians don't participate in government, but trying to not intertwine those in a way that's unhealthy, um, as was seen, kind of seen in those like Middle Ages time of the church.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Yeah, the government's not supposed to support a particular church or a particular faith.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

But while we're talking about it, we should clarify though that that separation of church and state, not to rabbit hole in a different discussion, but is not that Christians are not to participate in levels of government and um, you know, bring forth legislation that is in line with that. It's actually, um, I believe in its original inception, it was a uh a Baptist um preacher who was saying that you know the government should not invade the garden of the church. And that was kind of the original conception of that. But you know, you mentioned that you will not dunk a baby. But I've seen videos like the orth many Orthodox churches will dunk grab them by the ankle and dunk the baby like three times because we got to get a dunk for each father, son, holy spirit.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

I've seen it too. It's one of the reasons I don't want to do it. Oh dear.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

So yeah, and I think one last point on this is people will point to um from Acts. I think it's Peter saying, When people are, what should we do? And they he says, you know, repent and be baptized.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

And that we'll see that's an order of operations. You are to repent and then be baptized. But um, while that could be, I think you also see though, that's like those are a list of two things that you are to do as part of that, um, that they're not necessarily indicating some particular order. Uh, because we would say that you continue repenting, you know, to the day you die. Um, kind of like the idea of you're getting ready for a trip, you know, maybe you need to go to grab some food at the store, you need to pack your bags, you know. These are things you need to do before you leave for your trip, but they're not ones you need to do in a particular order.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Um, they just need to be done before you leave.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yes, yeah, yeah. That there's uh an obedience aspect in baptism. Um, and you know, again, as I as I went through that long list of scriptures, this is a very complex, yes, rich symbolism of baptism's impact on our lives, which really underlines the importance of it.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Um, but also kind of shows a little variety in that.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Yeah. So you talked a bit about this, but the kind of is baptism required? Right. Is, you know, do you have to be baptized to be saved? And I think as we're saying with this topic, there's some nuance to that beyond just a hard yes or no. So what are some thoughts you have on on that particular area?

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Well, and and and you know, we've often been very resistant to have anything besides faith as salvation. Right. It's that that uh only by the grace of God through our faith are we saved. Um and and not get into the faith and works aspect where we work our way in.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Now, you know, baptism is seen as an act of obedience, it's seen as something important. Um you do have the at least the one case of the thief on the cross where somebody is promised salvation without having to be baptized. I I think, you know, the vast majority of cases, it's kind of one of those why would you not be obedient to Christ and being baptized if you were trusting in him? Right. I mean, what what would be the the reason uh for that um that would cause you not to, which kind of solves the problem, you know? It's it's that uh in in some ways that I I don't think our salvation is dependent on this one particular action on our part, but as a saved person, we want to be obedient to God and to Christ. And so it's almost becomes a theoretical question, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Right. Like it's a reflection of where your heart is at in your faith. You know, kind of like when our faith and works discussion, as James is highlighting, like, how can we see your faith if not through your works, you know, with the people around you? And so in the same with baptism, it's it it's a reflection of that obedience. And so, yeah, you do have to put into question if there's someone who's saying, Well, I refuse to do this, the thing that Jesus is calling us to do, it would then okay, that seems a little disjointed. In which in that case, then I think it goes back to more about where's your heart at in this particular situation.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Um and if I could something related to that is um, you know, sometimes people will approach me, uh, other folks about being privately baptized.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Uh there's a there's an aspect of baptism that that needs to be public. Right. You know, and it's it's kind of connected with that. Jesus says, you know, if you're ashamed of me and in public, I'm gonna be ashamed of you at the judgment type thing. It doesn't mean that all baptisms have to occur in a church. I mean, you know, they happen at camp, they happen in the Jordan River, they have in various places, but but you don't really have secret baptism, you don't have a a very private thing because it is uh an affirmation of the community to the person as well. And it is a proclamation of I'm being obedient and following Christ because I am trusting in Christ.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Right. Yeah, and I and the thief on the cross to me is a great example of God's grace overcoming exceptions, not rules. You know, and I think that's a little people will point to the thief on the cross and say, Well, see, I don't have to be baptized. It's like, but we can't make our rules and our understanding of theology on the exceptions. Those have to guide us in going, oh, look, God's grace is so, you know, magnificent that it can overcome the fact that he's not. But it doesn't mean that if the opportunity wasn't presented, that Jesus wouldn't have said, let's go be baptized. Right. You know what I mean? And so I just think we have to be careful that we're building, don't build our theology on exceptions, but also don't negate the exceptions because they do show the power of God's grace in those things.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Absolutely. And and and somewhat related to that is, you know, sometimes we have this uh uh tendency to say, what is the minimum I can do to serve God, which like you know, if you're in love with somebody, you don't look for the minimum you can do or the absolute edge that you can walk on. It it kind of uh, you know, the you want to have that heart that's guided by the spirit where you want to give God your best and your utmost. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

And I think on this topic of do you have to be, people will point to John 3.5, uh, in which Jesus says, you know, truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and spirit and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Uh, and they will point to that and say, See water, baptism. But what I actually heard was another explanation was the idea of water being your actual like physical birth. Um, because just kind of the nature of not to we don't need a graphic detail, pregnancy and labor, but the idea that born of water is your first actual birth as a human, and then of the spirit is the new birth. Right. Um, which I just thought that was two different perspectives on that, because some people say, well, water, baptism, must, and then others say, No, that's not what it's saying.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Yeah, and and you know, in my sermon, I did um take some references that could be argued to be other things, but they were kind of like the beginning of the Christian walk, and they almost always had water as connected there. Yeah. The other thing, I mean, you know, John is he has multiple layers. Oh, yeah. And you know, who else says, I am the living water in John?

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Is it that you have to be born by the Son and the Spirit? I mean, you know, another way of understanding that. Um, and and again, I think I think the grace of God is really our best defense, if you will. Yes. When it comes to the particulars here.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Yeah, for sure. Uh, and then kind of finally, you know, you mentioned our standpoint, actually, even being a little different than the Methodists, on re-baptism, what that entails, you know, you'll hear a lot, like you mentioned, remembering your baptism, but there is a certain difference in remembering and being re-baptized. But like you're saying, it's not that you needed like a do-over, the first one didn't take or something, but just marks maybe a significant point for someone. So for you, like as a pastor, how do you start to kind of walk that line of when is somebody, yes, this is something that we should mark with a baptism? And okay, we don't need to be baptized every single time we, you know, do whatever.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Right. Yeah. Um, and and I did see, you know, I've been in churches, denominations where there was pressure to keep being re-baptized sometimes, uh, whether it was because they wanted the numbers or whether it was because of what I would call the there's sometimes a religious anxiety of people, the promise of God is secure. They have a hard time feeling that and resting in that. And and it it can become unhealthy from that. Um I I I think, you know, what comes up with me, and and you know, they really, I mean, when I was going through the process of having my ordination recognized in the Methodist Church, they really hit hard upon that. You don't rebaptize, you don't rebaptize. God's promises are secure, which I I believe God's promises are secure. I I thought it was maybe a little overdone because I think you have to have a conversation with someone. And you have to, you know, and you can reaffirm, you know, you you don't have to feel um insecure about God's grace, about the, you know, you can have confidence in Christ, but then, you know, you have a significant change, a significant movement in your life. There's a point where and and often I've had people say, Well, I I understand that, but but this is something I really think I need to do because of what happened in my life, or because it will help me to, you know, be able to have this new start in some way. And and I I just I failed to see the problem in that, you know. Right, right. And and the splitting hairs part, you know, of course, is whether you call it remembering your baptism with water or being baptized again with water. You know, it's it's kind of like, yeah, what's the difference? Splitting hairs with words.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Yeah, well, and we kind of we did this as a family, um, like when our son Owen was wanting to be baptized. Um, and we kind of chose just personally to wait till he had an understanding and asked and that sort of thing. But then we just decided to do it as a full family because um, you know, my husband had been baptized as a baby Catholic and you know had no really recollection of that. Um, I had been sprinkled in high school and had kind of wanted to be immersed. Again, not to say that that's because that's the most correct way, but just felt like I wanted to do that. And so it was a way for us to kind of do that um as a family and and mark that point there, which I thought was was nice to do. Yeah, people give me a hard time because they say my first baptism wasn't legit, because it was just in the bulletin was a little piece of paper and it said, check here if you'd like to be baptized. And I said, Yeah, I I trust in Jesus. I want to do that. And like, Jordan, you just went up in the middle of the service with my paper. Yeah. Here we go. Baptizing and yeah, didn't even tell my parents and just came home and they're like, What? We would have gone to that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Well, and and my personal experience was, you know, I was baptized at age 10. I I knew what I was getting into then. I mean, as much as a person knows when they start that journey, I followed Christ. I got very involved. I have an experience to call to ministry. And then at the very end of my high school years, I rebelled against God and I went away and I tried to ignore God for uh first two years of college. So when I came back, I needed to mark that.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Now, the part of it I don't like is that it was with one of those groups that said, Oh, well, we have to baptize you again, even though you've been baptized as a believer.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

And I've known I've known churches that wouldn't even accept the baptism of another church in their own denomination. I mean, even that is a problem.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Yeah, even the Catholic Church will accept, like has made proclamations of accepting other like Protestants. Like you don't need to be baptized again.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

No, it's fairly recent. Yes, fairly recent.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Yeah, I mean, yeah, the idea that like, well, this other church, we're not sure they did it right, so we're gonna do it for you over here.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

And and you know, part of the the confusion that can come in, as we talked in one of the other podcasts, we're talking about differences within the broad stream of Christianity here.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

There are groups that are really not Christian in their theology and their understanding, but they also baptize.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Right, yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Which makes it very confusing. So that, you know, if you have somebody that has been in a completely different, basically, you know, understanding of faith, and then they come in, well, that's that's a whole different situation than somebody's that's just been baptized in a different denomination. Yeah, basically.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

For sure. Well, um, we hope you all have been enjoying these, and we hope that you're seeing, you know, for me personally, it hadn't really occurred to me until I dug deep into these Wesleyan ideas that really there is a desire to let's not draw lines in the sand where they don't exist. And I think there can be a fear of churches of not drawing lines for fear where people may go. Uh, but at the same time, we want to follow biblical guidance and not think that we have a better understanding than the Bible itself. And so I hope that you guys have enjoyed kind of hearing some of these and and seeing that aspect of Wesleyan tradition that we have in our now non-denominational church. And so we'll have one more podcast, just uh not necessarily Wesleyan, but looking at uh Holy Week and as we prepare uh for Easter and celebrating uh our risen Savior who makes all of this conversation possible. And so we hope you'll join us, that you've enjoyed this challenge, and we'll uh see you then.