Special Podcast on the Book of Numbers

Join Pastor Ken and Jordin as they take an overview look at the Book of Numbers and our current sermon series.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Well, welcome everyone to this special kind of one-off podcast covering the book of numbers. Pastor Ken, you have started back on a series you actually had already covered a bit of and jumping back into kind of walking with God in the wilderness, a look at the book of numbers, how God journeyed with his people, continues to journey with us. And so we're going to do this kind of one-off podcast because just to give people a sense of important things they should take away from the book of numbers, uh, any kind of extra things that we think they should should know. But then also, you know, we've heard a lot of great feedback about the podcast, people enjoying it. And so we will be looking. Um, this will be a one-off for this series, but we'll kind of look in the next series to see about bringing these in more and giving people information. So when it comes to the book of Numbers, which you're the Old Testament guy, most people don't consider themselves uh very uh fluid in the uh fluent in the old testament just because it can be a bit complicated. But what are kind of overall themes and things you want to hit on and have people understand when it comes to this book of the old testament?

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Yeah, I I know the book of numbers is probably not on anybody's favorite list of Bible books to read. And and part of that is it's kind of a two-part thing. You know, there's chapters that go into all this detail about the census, about the holy things, and they lose us, you know, our eyes glaze over. All the numbers? Yeah, all the numbers at the beginning and the end. And you'll notice that there's not going to be really a focus on those. But it's kind of like Moby Dick. You know, the book of Moby Dick's like 450 pages long, my copy. But like two-thirds of it is all this detail about whale hunting in the 19th century. And you can skip those chapters, and then you find it's this incredible story about Captain Ahab and the white whale, and it's very exciting and so forth. But if you try to wade through all those other whaling chapters, it can really bog you down. Yes. Uh, and so what we're looking at is that very vital narrative. And there are two movements to keep in mind. One is that, you know, by the time we get to chapter 14, there's going to be this um really judgment on the older generation that we've seen complain and complain and cause problems and refuse to trust God despite all the miracles they see. And then you kind of begin this transition to the new generation. Uh, and the old generation basically does not get to go into the promised land. And so you have these continued rebellions, but then once the new takes over, it's a period of more obedience to God. And so there's that movement from the older generation that just doesn't seem to get it. They can't break out of their slavery Egypt mentality that's good old days kind of stuff that's very false, and then the new generation that's really focused upon obeying God. The other thing that you get in the way of movement that kind of overarches it is they start at Mount Sinai, uh, where they've gotten the law, where they're kind of they prepare the tabernacle, they learn how to live with the presence of a holy God in their midst and how to be a camp, and they're going to have to deal with everything from you know rough journeys to enemies in the human sense to all kinds of uh you know directional type things. So they learn how to kind of live and move with God without violating the sanctity of God. And it it could be like a little scary process, and and eventually the book has them move all the way to the very edge of the Promised Land. So as you're transitioning from Moses and that first generation of leadership to Joshua and the next generation, it occurs in this book. Um and of course, the narratives that we're going to look at are kind of the points where there's a lot of lessons for modern times. You know, um, I mean, everything from Moses getting burnt out, uh, racism, uh, how do you uh figure out whether somebody really is getting direction from God or whether they're just coming up with it on their own, you know, the whole false prophecy thing, uh, the nature of trusting in God, of faith. Uh, you know, the wilderness is a place where you have to rely on God. Yeah. It's a place of rebellion, but it can also be a place of deep obedience and trusting in God. And, you know, we use that metaphorically for our journey in life that sometimes we go through these, feel like we're in the Garden of Eden, and other times we feel like we're in the wilderness kind of experiences. So uh, you know, kind of keep that overarching movement in mind and uh don't be afraid to skip some of those chapters that uh get a little bit more focused for a priest in the old testament than for us. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Well, and I think the old testament can be a tricky read in general because you're trying to navigate as a New Testament, New Covenant Christian, what what does this mean for me? And you have lots of different, you know, different takes people will have on it. Some people just throw out the Old Testament, which I think is unwise. I mean, it is it is a shadow of the things to come. And and we only see our need for Christ and the prophecies of Christ and the real fulfillment if we look at the Old Testament as that kind of shadow. But it's hard to, you know, I think people can sometimes make the mistake when reading even the Old Testament is like everything must apply to me in some way. And I think there are applications, but it's that going through that process of first and foremost, what did this mean for these people? Right. Um, you know, especially when there's certain prescriptive behaviors and different things given is what did this mean? Who is it for? What did it mean for them? And then how do I uh, you know, what do I take out of that that's for me? Right. Um, and I think making sure those first steps are followed so that we're not misapplying things, but we're also not throwing it away and unwilling to see some of the natural applications, such as Moses being burnt out that can speak to us.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Yeah, absolutely. Very, very good point. Um, we we do sometimes have that tendency to run to application to me. Yeah. But if you don't spend a little time figuring out what's going on from the sense of the time the book portrays and the writing and so forth, then you might miss the most important part of the lesson. Yes. Sometimes, you know. Uh and and there's there's a lot of surprising content in numbers in the sense of some really deep spiritual things going on that sometimes we miss out on. Now, I think sometimes we have to be put ourselves at the uncomfortable place of, you know, we're a little bit more like these rebellious Israelites than we want to be. It's not those people messed up, but we get it all right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Once you get to the New Testament, we're all good over here. Yeah, and it is uh that's very relatable and something that we should remind ourselves of is just it's easy to point fingers and like, man, you guys, Moses went up there for what, 40 days or something, or to get the to get the commandments, and you all already made a calf. Like, what then it's so easy to like we can do those same things and um and to not point fingers at the poor Israelites.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

As much as we don't like it, sometimes we can't identify ourselves with the disciples, we gotta identify ourselves with the Pharisees.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Yes, yeah, yeah. And I think um some other struggles people may have with the Old Testament in general, and you get some of this in numbers and various things, is some of the more um I people would maybe say barbaric. Yes. Uh, you know, we I think part of it is the New Testament, but part of it is our culture has this painted image of God um in the lovey-dovey sense. Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Uh, but yet at the same time, God is a God of justice, and we may not like his enacting of justice that you see in the Old Testament. And so I think, you know, what's your advice for people when they're reading these passages? And some of them come across as like, oh wow, I can't believe they were told to slaughter this whole people group and different things, you know.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Right, yeah. Yeah, no, I I I understand what you're saying. There are troubling things. I I I think there's a a sense of, you know, this is in the ancient world, um, but there's also a sense where our our own world is like that in many ways we don't want to see. Right. Uh we we kind of get into this pretend mode about the nature of the world today. Yes. Uh the nature of our society, the nature of dealing with people, uh, the dark side of humanity that uh, you know, we want to uh downplay that, but sometimes we need to be well, always maybe we need to be very realistic about it too. Um and and consider, you know, things. And and and you know, yeah, you read these passages and you think, wow, that just seems a little drastic. Um but you have to understand God is building the best future for humans in light of our c behavior that we really can expect.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Um and all these people would be dead anyway, right? This is 2,000 years ago or well, 1200 years, 1500 years ago, somewhere around there. Um and and it's that sense of i i if nothing else, it should make us take very seriously the fact that evil, sin, these things are very destructive. If you allow them to grow, they are very much like a cancer that kills the whole patient. Yes. You know, and and you know, dealing with cancer, you cut, burn, and poison. I mean, it's very it's a very difficult situation, or it kills the patient. Yeah. Um and and I think there's a spiritual sense where some of these rebellions, if they are allowed to go on, are just going to wipe out any hope for humanity whatsoever.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Well, and you see that once they're given the promised land and they go in, they're told specifically to remove the other inhabitants, and in some places they don't, and it comes back to bite them. Right. Um and then I think the other thing is we need it's not painted very well for us in the Old Testament, but like there is great evil that many of these people groups are committing. Um, that, you know, we would deem proper justice for, you know, you consider like those, you know, burning children alive as a sacrifice to Molech and things. Yeah, so we're not talking like these really this really, you know, kind, caring, compassionate people group in many times. These were people doing barbaric, evil acts in those groups.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Yeah, I mean the whole thing that, again, as a part of our society of all you should affirm all the other c cultures and all cultures are are just different. There's no moral judgment. Well, that's just not reality. I mean, the Aztecs were slaughtering tens of thousands of people, cutting their hearts out in order to make the sun come up the next day. That that was not a kind of a uh a culture that you want to affirm. And there are cultures around the world today that are extremely destructive. Yeah. Um, and uh again, you also have to look at the fact that God is dealing with Moses leading a people, a nation, in a geopolitical sense, whereas the church is kind of a nation built by Christ outside of nations, it does not have the same requirements. I mean, our our political leaders still have to deal with the geopolitical world and all the the things that are hard to deal with there. But but the church is a a whole different reality as a spiritual body, a family of God. Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

And not to rabbit hole too much, but you do see uh some parts of our political spectrum even today are pushing for theocracies, uh, but which is what Israel would have been, you know, this kind of dual combination of both a religious group and the political kind of meshed in one. But like America is not a theocracy. No. Uh and in really we don't see the church being called, you know, Paul, especially in Romans, gives very specific rules for what the church is to do and what the government is to do. And so that that, you know, Israel is a kind of a unique situation with a theocracy, as you're saying, comparative to the modern church, which is not called to be that.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

And and for Christianity, that that idea just really doesn't work uh to have that kind of government because it is a group that's based upon the grace of God and the response of humans to that grace. When you're dealing with a nation, a community, you can't count on that and you can't force it.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Yes, which you see become a problem in the early parts of the church.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Stuff now, even yeah. I mean, you know, Islam is trying to force things, and so it becomes and and you know, really in a long-term sense, it it defeats the religion when you try to force things. And and yeah, the church had times when he tried to do the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Yeah, where being like we had talked about in the baptism podcast, where being baptized is essentially being a citizen. It was kind of this whole um, yeah, and it has not usually bode well when the the b the lines are blurred too far. Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Yeah, we we want our faith to be a faith and the state to be a state and and uh you know have that separation.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

So as we are kind of reconciling New Testament, Old Testament, and those sorts of things, there are a few places that appear, especially in Numbers, uh, that then are re-articulated in the New Testament in kind of cool ways. Um, just thinking one to maybe kind of touch on that you're gonna be doing uh coming up later in this series is looking at the bronze serpent. Yes, uh, which comes later in Numbers, and then John highlights uh in chapter three.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Yeah, it becomes a symbol of Christ being raised up on the cross for salvation, which is it's kind of, I mean, you know, when you read the numbers thing, you really don't expect it's gonna be used that way in some ways, although it is a really, you know, very kind of different passage in that. Um, and and it's it's kind of one of those that makes your eyebrows raise in the Old Testament because it seems like it's a graven image, which is exactly what you're not supposed to have, but Moses is told to do it.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Right. And just so so if people aren't familiar with that passage that we'll you'll be getting to is like the people have disobeyed, God has sent these fiery serpents that are biting the people, and then Moses is given um the bronze serpent kind of staff of sorts to raise up that the people can look at if they're bitten and be healed.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

And so, yes, that seemed as you're reading it in the Old Testament, it's like, oh, that feels very like an idol where it's very confusing. Um and yeah, the idea that you would look upon this image, this thing that's made and be healed. But then again, some of the Old Testament is confusing. But then when you see it as a shadow of the thing to come, and then it like makes it all so much uh more clear, like the fact that then Jesus is, you know, we're not being healed from fiery serpents, but like Jesus is your ultimate redemption.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

You look upon the cross, you gain life, and he's raised up like this this banner staff kind of statue, or not statue, I guess it would be like a pole with a metal metal bronze thing on it. Um yeah, and you know, Paul says at one point that that these things were written for us, and there are all kinds of um lessons for Christians in these stories, and you know, they are stories that um the New Testament people knew them, they focused on them, Jesus quotes them, gospel writers, you know, quote different places, and there's a lot of depth even for us today.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

As well as the fact that human nature doesn't change and people react to God the same way.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Yeah, well, and I think sometimes Paul's hard to understand because we forget how much he and the people he's talking to would know the Old Testament so well, and so he doesn't articulate things that we kind of need articulated because we're not as thoroughly, you know, equipped with Old Testament knowledge as maybe he and his people he'd be talking to. But you know, I think you can get into the weeds trying to picture Jesus in every page of the the Old Testament, but um there are really clear points of Jesus being, you know, prophecies and these kind of foreshadowings of things to come that are very cool in the Old Testament.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Yeah, God God kind of works in those patterns, you know, uh just as humans tend to live their life and respond in patterns and such. And and and it's just that um it's ways to probably help people to hear the message of Christ better, and that this is not something completely new, although there's much new in it. It's something that God's been planning for centuries and and you see those foreshadowing types, anti-types, lots of different ways of describing it.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Yeah, and I think like you were saying with the the Old Testament, there's passages, you know, kind of like you compared to Moby Dick with the wailing, but just that you think, like, why do I need to read all this? Like in Leviticus tends to come, you know, why am I reading all these laws? But you and you start to recognize through tedious reading just what the expectations were to be made righteous with a holy God. That it paints the picture of like we need Jesus, like thank you, Lord, for Jesus, because we're not doing any of that on our own. And while it's tedious to get to that point, you see the character of God in that that that's the standard to be in the presence of a holy God, and you're not gonna reach it. And it kind of helps you see that.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Um and and even some of those, you know, like things that we love as ethical high points in the teaching of Jesus, it's in Leviticus that says you shall love your neighbors yourself. Yeah, yeah. Amongst all those laws, there are those and then you know, laws about caring for people and the community, helping people out. I mean, there's just a lot of stuff that has shaped everything that comes afterwards. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Um so one last kind of specific that uh is popping up right now amidst our very tense uh political landscape as a world, uh, is this idea of the church in Israel and and what are we supposed to do? This and you see people in kind of social media and and the pop culture scheme that are on two opposite ends. Some will be saying, like the kind of replacement theory, which would say that uh the church fully replaced Israel. There is no nothing for Israel, like that don't we don't even need to worry about them, uh, which I think we would agree that when you look at Revelation, you look at the way Paul speaks of his people, um, that there is a redemption of Israel, there is a part of the, you know, end time story that they play. Um, so that that kind of idea of replacement would not necessarily be theologically, but then you see the other end, which is um people will use like Numbers 24, 9, it's also in Genesis, you know, uh I'll bless those who bless you and I'll curse those who curse you. And so we should bless everything Israel does. And so how do we make sense? Uh, especially looking at kind of the craziness that's going around that seems to be centered on Israel, like as Christians, what should our approach, our approach be to this situation?

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Yeah, and and it is a complex problem uh or or issue to understand. Um I I'm very careful about distinguishing between ancient Israel, you know, you call the individuals Israelites, uh, who God is working through as his main kind of group to work with at that point, uh, has given promises to, you know, going they're building up to the Messiah, that whole story. Uh, and modern Israel, and the members are Israelis, uh, kind of to distinguish, which is a secular state.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Um, and you know, you really got to be careful. I mean, some of these people go so far as it's it's almost like you said, Israel can do no wrong.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Even to the point of persecuting Christians and being against Christian things, um, that's going way beyond the Bible. I mean, I I do believe God has plans for the Jewish people, but you look at it, the plan is for them to come to Christ because salvation comes through Christ.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Uh and and you know, God has a whole lot of problems with what ancient Israel does. I'm sure he has a whole lot of problems with what modern Israel does too. And so it it it again seems to me like it's easy to confuse um God's work to bring salvation working through people and geopolitical nation states, which sometimes obey God, but usually they don't. Right. And they they usually have motives that are not at all God's motives. They're usually more motivated by power and greed and sin and all those things. And and you know, we as Americans know that there are times we need to criticize our government. There are times that we need to say, I just can't do that. Right. And and no matter what your space on the political spectrum, you find times that you just say that goes against who I am as a Christian.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Um and and I think when it comes to, you know, U.S. foreign policy in relationship to Israel and other nations, or even Christians' view is is that we offer them salvation, uh, the Israelis, we we connect with them, we have a lot of reasons to be politically allied, but you gotta be careful when you get into taking a verse that was applied to old Israel that God was working through before the Messiah came and applying it to modern Israel. And I'm sure God's working there, but it might be in a completely different way.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Right. Well, and I think this highlights a bigger issue in our culture, which which is this tribalism of like I have to fully be in one camp or the other, instead of approaching every situation with nuance, to say there may be for religious Israel, there may be certain things that we would support or be uh in favor of helping, you know, as we're Gentiles, graft it in and helping those people to be a part of that vine that is Jesus. Um, but then be willing to separate the nation uh and political things and and be willing to take every situation and view it objectively for what it is, with the nuance it requires, not blanket cover everything uh in this sort of tribalism. And so um obviously this kind of is a little bit of a rabbit hole from numbers, but this verse appears in numbers, which you know, and I'm sure people as they're scrolling their social media are being bombarded with whatever algorithm wonderful things have been sent your way that um don't mention the verse, it'll come popping up everywhere. You're seeing lots of this kind of stuff pop up. And so I think it's worth at least mentioning um in the Yeah, I I agree.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

And and and I think it is an issue. I mean, you know, there's there's nothing wrong with Christians being involved in politics. Yeah, yeah. I love having Christian leaders, although they have to make really hard decisions sometimes. Yeah. Uh but I see, you know, even with geo Jesus and the Pharisees, since I picked on them earlier. That, you know, there's a verse in Acts that says, A whole lot of Pharisees came to believe in Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

And we see even in the gospels when he's having all these confrontations with them, he still agrees with him on a lot of stuff. And there's still some who follow him and trusting him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Uh and and putting people in any kind of bag to cover everything gets it, it just doesn't it's just become the easy us first them mentality that we see um really pervasive in this culture, which is uh it does require a certain bit of work and being informed and being educated to make intelligent objective decisions on each topic, but it's something that I think we as a people, especially as Christians, should be more mindful to do.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Yeah, we we we don't really and we have the Holy Spirit, we have the scripture. We don't want others making decisions for us in the sense of putting us into this bag and says you've got to follow everything in here. Yeah or you're not one of those. Well, I choose to be a Christian, not one of those. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Yes, to first and foremost be defined by who we are in Christ. And yeah, so any, you know, looking at numbers again, this this kind of journey, this wilderness, all this, you know, stuff that many people can relate to in times of their lives where they felt maybe distant or rejected by God by something they did, but knowing that our Christian side of the story, there is redemption, there is hope in Jesus. Um, any last kind of thoughts when it per you know pertains to the book of Numbers?

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Um, just just one thing that I would bring out is I I didn't want to lose everybody in the wilderness by trying to do all these two parts, Exodus and Numbers together, which would have been way too long of a series. But the stuff that happens in Exodus, the the early rebellions and stuff, does kind of influence how God reacts more harshly. You know, he gets more harsh because he's given them chance after chance after chance. Uh and and so you know, you kind of keep in mind that we are picking up mid-journey.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Um, and we are, you know, kind of continuing on from that. Uh, but to me, I think one of the things that I find the most fascinating is the interaction between God and Moses. And we saw some of this last Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

Of they have this incredible relationship where when both of them get frustrated with the people, the other one talks them out of wiping them out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

Well, and I love Moses's willingness to be so blunt with God and and feel, I don't want to say feel like he can barter with God, but really feel like he can he can def like argue to defend his people and have and have this kind of give and take, like, you know, uh, I guess conversational relationship with God that I think you don't always see everybody in, especially the old testament, having that kind of relationship.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Right, right. Al although I think God kind of likes those scrappy figures because you know, you look at David, you look at Jacob, you look at Moses, and and and all the stuff that describes Moses, talks about Moses, talks about his special relationship with God. Yeah. And yet he's not the same as Jesus. He fails, he ends up, you know, basically not getting to go to the Holy Land. It's it also makes it clear that he's very human.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

Even though he's in a very privileged and very difficult position.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Yes. But then you know he doesn't go to the promised land per se in that sense. But um, I mean, obviously, like he's what one of the two in the transfiguration. You know, so there's a sense that like he was denied that earthly experience, but his faithfulness uh seems to have um oh yeah his faith and and redemption seems to have played out in in bigger ways post-earthly life.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

Yeah, and and he he becomes the person that represents the entire law.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

You know, so when you you know, it seems to be the entire old testament sometimes is described as the law and the prophets, represented by Moses and Elijah. Yep, yeah. And so I mean, these are the these are the the big figures of the old testament for sure.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

And in which is then so cool to think like at the transfiguration, you have Jesus talking to the law and the prophets, and he is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. And it's just very cool to see the way God brings things full circle.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

You can understand Peter getting so excited you want to live there, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's camp out.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Yeah, you guys cannot count on Peter to have a comment that we all relate with, but it's probably untimely shouldn't have been said. But well, uh thank you all, you know, for joining us. And, you know, as we look forward to what we can do with this resource and and and helping you in your walk and your journey, um, you know, feel free to let us know what you would like to see, suggestions, thoughts you have on podcast stuff. And um we look forward to continuing to help us all grow grow deeper in our faith and as we walk in the wilderness on the journey with God. So thank you all.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Goodbye, everyone.