Why Life Skills Classrooms Limit Non-Speaking Students | Dr. Vaish Sarathy

 If you’re parenting a child with non-speaking autism and feel like you’re constantly advocating for more than the system expects, this episode will resonate deeply. 

In this conversation, Sara Intonato speaks with educator, researcher, and parent Dr. Vaish Sarathy about why many traditional life skills classrooms limit non-speaking and minimally speaking students—and why separating communication, cognition, and motor skills is essential in autism education. 

Dr. Sarathy shares her personal experience raising a nonspeaking autistic child who also has Down syndrome, and how choosing to presume competence challenged both educational systems and expectations within her own community. Together, Sara and Dr. Sarathy explore how nonlinear learning, communication approaches like spelling to communicate and RPM, and a regulated parent nervous system can dramatically change a child’s learning trajectory. 

In this episode you’ll learn: 

• Why life skills classrooms often underestimate non-speaking autistic students
•  How separating communication, cognition, and motor skills changes autism education
• Why presuming competence begins with the parent’s nervous system
• How nonlinear learning and spelling methods can unlock autistic communication
• Why curiosity from parents can transform a child’s educational path

More than anything, this conversation reminds parents that their presence, regulation, and willingness to question the narrative can open entirely new possibilities for their child.
 
If you’ve ever wondered how much your child might be capable of when someone truly presumes competence, this episode offers both clarity and hope.
 
If this conversation resonated, you can connect with Dr. Sarathy at https://www.drvaishsarathy.com and Sara on Instagram @sara.intonato or explore additional resources at autismchangemakers.com
 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello everyone. Welcome to the Autism Changemakers podcast, where you know by now that I am committed to bringing you unfiltered, unedited information that can help you parenting your non-speaking or non-productively speaking child right now in your daily life. It's often the information that I wish I had when my child was little and I had to search high and low just to find. And today's episode is going to help you tremendously in the present moment with your child, no matter how old they are, and no matter their level of communication at this time, because we know that's always changing and growing. Today I am joined by the phenomenal Dr. Vaish Sarati, who is not only a fellow parent to a teen with autism and Down syndrome, but also a trained educator. She specializes in teaching nonlinear learners science and math. We did our level two rapid prompting method training together a couple of years back. She's going for her level three right now, and I admit she's gotten me motivated to start that myself. So someone who I deeply respect and who I'm deeply thankful to stand shoulder to shoulder with, not only as a professional, but also as a parent. So, Dr. Vaish, please add to that introduction with anything else that you want our listeners to know about.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

That was a great introduction. Thank you, Sarah, for having me on this podcast. Um, and I can't think of much to add, honestly, but I just want to say that because you mentioned that I'm an educator, um I, you know, I used to practice a few other things. I've been, I've I've had my, you know, um, you know, my feet in different places, but I've really settled firmly into the field of education because I think one thing that a lot of um educational systems and parents honestly don't recognize enough is that education, an equal education, I'm not talking about the alphabet or numbers or the colors that our kids have learned in plenty for years or even addition. I'm talking about an equal and appropriate education is the birthright of every child. So when I'm teaching nonlinear education, even when I'm teaching spellers, you might think that like we've gone over these hurdles, but often we're stuck in like teaching the same thing over and over again. So I that's it. That's all I want to add.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

I will say that every time I pull up one of your social media posts, I want to share it because everything that you say is so poignant and important for people to know about. But one of them really caught me when I watched it. I was pretty much standing up and applauding all of your words that you shared. And it was about how so often, when a student has autism or Down syndrome, they are strongly encouraged to take a life skills track in their educational life. And your post was all about how people make them feel like they have to regulate before they start learning academics. And your post was so disruptive about that. It was around how actually the opposite is true. It is the academics that support regulation, that support a learner's growth, not the refusal of academics. And I think this is such a crucial topic because people think life skills, and I think they're often envisioning teenagers, you know, getting work study training or domestic training. But I remember I encountered this hurdle for the first time when Rocco was seven. And I was approached, we live in New York, so I was approached around the topic of state testing. And of course, if you have a learner who struggles with motor planning, you're not going to want them to have to sit through long exams and whatnot. But it wasn't spelled out to me that if I said yes to saying, yeah, no testing for us, I was also saying yes to a life skills track, which pretty much for him meant no academics. No one educated me on this decision. I had no idea what I was getting into. And he is the living, breathing testament to what you spoke about on that post. After the academics were taken away, he started getting really bored in school. He'd never had behaviors at all, at all before that. And then all of a sudden, behaviors started to come out. And it was sort of this fork in the road that, you know, I don't believe in regrets, but if I could go back and tell my younger self, hey, don't say yes to this so quickly. Educate yourself more, make a different choice. That is a standout moment for me. So I was just wondering if you could speak to this because I think this is a sneaky conversation that starts at a younger age than most people think.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Yeah, it does. And it it reflects all of our internal biases and our um, you know, and our school systems biases. The problem is that um you were talking about the fact that Rocco did not get a um, you know, any academics. And it was interesting when Sid went into the school system, he was into the minute you're non-speaking, so there is no nuance here. Even without the testing, like if you're non-speaking, you're automatically shuttled into a classroom that in in our school district is called the independence skills classroom, which is like the biggest misnomer ever, right? So yeah, in multiple ways. And I'm happy to talk about the so-called independence because that's actually a critical area which we need to understand. We need to really understand what we mean by independence and what we want by independence, because we fall into this independence trap, is what is actually keeping education away. Not for schools, but for parents. I I think schools is just a way to like make it sound not as bad as it is. Instead of saying we're not going to teach you academics, we call it the independent skills classroom. That I that's triggering to even hear it, but it's true. And um, they call it the pre-academics classroom. What is pre-academics? Like, why why is there a pre-academics? I understand pre-algebra and pre-calculus. Why in in what age do you need a pre-academics? Even there is no um, unless you're like three or four, there is no such thing as a pre-academics. Even for then, like you have you teach your three-year-old things that you want them, like you just chat with them casually, and that is teaching. I'm mom, your dad. I mean, what is like we've made academics into this big bad wolf um thing that people have to like um qualify to receive academics, right? So the the pre-academics classroom is is like it it should be triggering. It should, it feels like a slap on my face when someone says pre-academics. It's like, what do you mean by pre-academics? It's like saying pre-life, right? I don't know what that means. Yeah. So um, and the truth is that these classrooms exist. And I don't follow the system in this, is that because schools do not know how to separate communication and education, is that is that we're still in a system that truly believes that communication is entirely reflective of a student's uh cognition. So there are three things communication, cognition, and therefore education, like school systems, educational systems have not been taught because this movement of non-speakers and spelling modalities is very new. So I understand that. I mean, and and I don't blame them because we know that systemic changes can take decades. So it is it isn't something that anybody can rely on a school. When we come back complaining about schools, that's fair that we should we complain. That's but it's also the change is not gonna happen tomorrow. It can happen on an individual level, like teachers can educate themselves, but we all know the teacher burden is pretty high. When are they gonna find the time? They're underpaid and overworked. At some level, systems have to educate themselves. I don't know how that's gonna happen. I don't have an answer to that. So the only thing I think the people that are in control are parents, right? So, or guardians or people, therapists, even like people who have a little bit more time. I mean, that's that sounds terrible to say. It's not like you and I have a ton of time on our hand, but I mean we don't we make the time, yeah. And I mean, we don't have a choice, let me put it that way. Right. That's right. Yeah, we have no option but to make the time. Yeah, yeah. So I I I forget, I think I went on multiple tangents, but I'm trying to I loved all of it. I I loved all of it.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Keep going because I think this is so important. And yeah, to your point, who has the time to go down these rabbit holes of discovery and research and empowerment when these things should already be happening in an education.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Yeah, but you are going to be the person that's going to make these things happen. And by you, I mean every parent, whether you're listening to this podcast, whether you have ever listened to either of us or not, regardless, you are the instrument of change because these changes are not going to happen to the next generation if we sit down and accept the doll outs that are given to us in education, right? So that's not gonna happen. So you, we're the ones that are going to like make a noise and be unpopular and and and make sure that education and communication and cognition are seen as separate things and motor skills, like these are all um understanding that communication is basically just a motor skill. However, cognition is not a motor skill. So it understanding that these things are different, like, and to be able to develop a model that is used by everyone where we see, okay, this is motor skill, this is cognition, this is communication, this is the sensory experience, and to understand them separately instead of putting them in one black box and say that, okay, this child needs a life skills classroom, which is just the which is the most stupid thing ever, because life skills classrooms, I have never seen a life skills classroom that has been successful in teaching life skills. Because A, it's not motivating, and B, you're at you actually, the the person running the classroom, if you don't understand that communication and cognition are different, then you don't even have the tools to teach life skills. You don't know how to teach, you don't know how to access the child's motor system. Because if you could, you would be able to help them communicate.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

So if I feel like that is that is the mic drop of mic drops. And it's so crucial because I remember at that moment with my seven-year-old having been told he has an IQ of 40, which is not actually true. He had motor planning issues that made him unable to answer the questions they were asking him in these types of settings.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

With is it ever true that who has an IQ of 40? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

I don't know. And if and if someone does, it doesn't mean they're less valuable of a human either. I think, but I was made to feel like he was in that environment that we were in. And I was made to feel like he was not worthy and deserving of academics because what was the point? He wouldn't be able to understand them anyway. This is what I was told. I'm not making that up. And so knowing what I know now, I don't take it to heart when someone passes those types of judgments because I know they're speaking from an ignorant place. They don't understand exactly what you just spoke about, they don't understand the difference between motor planning, cognition, and I forgot the third component that you said, academics maybe, but it was if they don't understand these differences, it's like apples and oranges. You're not even talking about the same thing, the same modality of educating somebody. And so let's go back to a parent who was in my shoes all the way back then. You're being told one thing about your child, your guts telling you that it's not true. You're being offered, I'll put quotation marks around the word, educational options that don't feel right to you, but they seem like they are the only option in a public school environment. What advice would you give that parent?

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Educate yourself. So I would say that I hope that you're able to meet someone who's able to tell you that communication is a motor skill. I mean, I didn't know that. I was also educated by somebody by by an RPM provider at some point that communication is a motor skill. I think it happened when Sid was eight, so I kind of got lucky that this happened seven, that earlier than later. But um But understanding that that what you see is um it's so hard because all our life we rely on our sight and what we perceive through our senses as the truth. And I think maybe like if you want to like dig in philosophically, that autistic individuals are here to tell us that this is all like an illusion or Maya, right? So it's that like what you see is not the truth. Like you are seeing a person who cannot answer a simple question, who doesn't turn their head when you call their name, and who is exhibiting everything you have known to be true about intellectual delay, and yet there is no intellectual delay. So I think maybe this is like the first step in like understanding that what you see is just is is not true. And to know that, I mean, like if bring it back from philosophy to to hard science is to just basically understand, which even neuroscientists do not understand, have not integrated that communication is a purely motor skill. It's like they may they should know it, but they don't apply it in practice. Not everybody does. So yeah, I mean, I I'm sure that once you remind them, they'll know it. But they we all get swayed by what we see because like it looks like intellectual disability, it walks like intellectual disability, so it must be an intellectual disability, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:35

So I think this is important, yeah. And I think this is an important point because you brought up something really powerful. The people who have been taught this way are not bad people. I've met some of the kindest, most caring people in school environments who genuinely want the best for my child, but they don't know what they don't know. They've been trained to think that if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, that's what it is. And it's not their fault that they've been taught that way. I always give them metaphor of it's like going to the cardiologist and telling them that you're taking vitamin D and doing acupuncture to improve your health. They're gonna think, well, that's just crazy. That's not gonna work because in your frame of reality, that's not real. When it is actually very real, it's just not something that they have exposure to. But them not having exposure to it doesn't invalidate it. Correct. So in in your opinion, what has to happen first? Communication has to become a fluid process so that this person can actually show what they know.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

No, no, uh, because it may or may not be possible for everybody, but it depends on the access that you have, right? So um I used to think that, but then I realized it's a little bit elitist of me to assume that everybody can actually access that, right? So um, and as we know, the things that actually work are not covered by insurance. So um, like you know, so that uh there was a joke that one of the therapists um that I used to work with made that the way you know if something works is is it covered by insurance? If it's not, then it probably works. So yeah, um, I mean that's not always true, but yeah, at least in in in therapeutic modalities, it's broadly becoming true these days. So um having said that, um backing up, what needs to happen first is I I have I I have a saying, I mean it's my own saying, but I really like it, is that some uh and it kind of just came to me that you have to assume intelligence before you see intelligence. And the way I like to say it is that assumption of intelligence reveals intelligence. You may have no tools to teach the child communication, that is okay. Okay, let's say you don't know any of the spelled communication modalities, you don't know how to get the child to communicate, you don't understand the motor system, that is fine. You can still make a difference by just the way that you interact one-sided. Maybe your child is is never um not never, but at this point of time not able to communicate with you in their fullest potential. But if you can interact with the child in an age-appropriate, respectful fashion, you're already building the bridge from one side. You don't need to build the bridge from both sides. Any side, the bridge is built. Once the bridge is built, then you have a level of trust and relationship with your child and you have to keep going. That's it. That's all it is. Talk to your child, upgrade or if you just up level your language, up level your respect and the and what you believe of them and what you believe they deserve. That is the first step, not communication.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

I love this. I remember when Rocco was little, he worked with a provider, a prompt speech therapy provider, who I really loved. And she really believed in him and she really helped him tremendously. He's still making progress in his oral motor ability and his speaking ability. And she was so gifted at what she did, and she had a plaque in her office, and it said, My teacher believed I was smart, but I didn't know if I was, or something to the effect. I'm not going to summarize it well, but it said, My teacher believed that I was smart before I was, and so I was.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

That's exactly it.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Yeah. And I really I think I took a picture of it and I should frame it because so often we forget that our kids, even typical kids, are going to be a product of their environment. And can you imagine being in an environment every day where people assume you're not intelligent, assume you're not worthy of academics, assume that you're not capable, assume that you don't want to learn even. And if all you do is hold the frame of, I believe in you, you're smart, even if I don't see it yet. We experience things together and share in this experience and learn and create joy and curiosity and empowerment. What bad could come of that? What's the worst that happens? You share an experience with another human being.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Exactly. Um perfectly put. I think that what is the worst thing that can happen? And um I wonder why we don't do that more often. I think we get caught up in our um in our ideas and in our loss of hope, and we come back into like we kind of get into the treadmill of like we need to do a little bit, and I don't think my child is capable of learning much, so let me treat teach them the alphabet again, and we kind of break any motivation or any joy in learning that I child may have ever had. So I think we get caught up in um what we should be doing instead of kind of really like we could really abandon all of these modalities and just do that one thing, is is basically live in joy, respect, and speak to them as an age appropriate in an age appropriate tone, as a person worthy of a normal communication, right? Yeah. That you would have with like my son's 18, another 18-year-old, or if if your son's 14, another 14-year-old, regardless of the age. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

And that reminds me how Rocco is supplementing his high school diploma at home, which he said was important to him to receive. He wants to do that work, and he doesn't mind having to supplement at home to get there. But I was speaking to one of my close friends in the RPM community. Her son is Rocco's age, and they homeschool. And as I was exploring different options for his supplemental education, I said to her, Hey, are you on a diploma track with your son? You know, what does your homeschool look like? I was just gathering some information. And she said, No, we're not. And I should mention that she is now a stay-at-home parent. She's a former school teacher. Her husband is superintendent of a school district. And she said, no, because we everyone we met who did the homeschool track lost their love of learning completely. It became so stressful for them. It became so results-oriented. I would rather my son love to learn for the rest of his life and find interests that he wants to pursue in adulthood and things that he finds to be joyful and share in connections with people than just have a diploma on the wall, but all of us get so stressed out in the process that we hate learning. I agree. I thought if two career educators have, yeah, you know what, that's not important to us, that's telling you something.

unknown 20:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Sorry to say that again.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

You left a very powerful impression on me. What is the whole point of learning? And and as you share about this, it just reminds me where in education have we gotten so results-oriented that we forget about the process of learning and the growth that comes from learning.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

I mean, yeah, we've it it has been like that for a long time. And for us for a very neurotypical linear learner, maybe it worked. I mean, like that's how our um our job system is structured and everything, and job growth is linear. Everything is like you you finish this, you're expected to know this, you finish this, you're expected to know this. But because our learners are extremely nonlinear, which um I had discovered kind of early in Sid's education, is that I think I I think now that Sid may be like even like whatever the uh opposite nonlinear doesn't is not enough to you know describe how nonlinear he is. I feel like he's just like he's just like a constellation of stars thrown in that there is like no there is no connection to his uh to his thoughts that I can comprehend, which is why poetry comes really well to him, because he can he can go into the abstract in like a very um in a very poetic fashion. But but he's not the only one. And most of the spellers that I work with um are nonlinear. So a lot of times parents will come to me saying that I'd like him to progress in a math in this math path, like he needs to do algebra one or algebra. And I'm happy to start. I start, but I can actually feel the um what's the word for it? It's it's like there's some sort of a resistance. They want to do it, but it's so heavy, it's so structured, it's too much. And and you slowly kind of lose the joy in learning.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Yeah, it's it's interesting. It's interesting too because I remember when you told me you discovered this with Sid learning math and how he would master addition, and then what the obvious next step might be, which would be subtraction. He it wasn't clicking for him, but if you skipped ahead to multiplication, it clicked for him, and then he went backwards into subtraction, and then he could get it. And and I think it's so interesting because we, at least in America, are grown up to learn in that really highly structured, regimented fashion. This is how you do it, and this is the only way that you do it.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Not just America everywhere. That that is that is how it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

Yeah, and I think it's so disruptive for people to even entertain the fact that, oh wait, what if we're wrong about this?

SPEAKER_01 23:04

And we never have to subtract or divide. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

Right. And and what and what if we're we've been wrong for years to think that this is the only way? I think that's a hard mental leap for some people, and I think that's why we see so much resistance. People don't want to admit that maybe they've been doing it wrong. So they cling to their ego around, no, this has to be the right way, instead of being curious and saying, well, what if it's not? What if there is a different way? So I would love to know how you really embrace in your work linear, non-linear learning paths, because I'm sure they can be different from one student to the next.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

Yeah, they are very different. So this is one of the things I've been trying to do is to create a curriculum, uh, non-linear curriculum. And then I realized what like an what an oxymoron that was. Like you, I don't know. You can you can't actually develop a I'm I'm still trying in math where like I can go from here to here, like um, and uh you know, to to different places, but but uh I'm gonna see. I mean, I'm I'm it's it's a work in progress. Maybe it'll happen, maybe it won't be a curriculum, but like a suggestion guide. Like maybe after um this you can do this or something like that. But how do I embrace it? I kind of have to look for cues from my students to see um what is it that they are leaning towards and and look for their answers to questions. Um, there are some students that I'm asking a mathematical question and they're giving me like a poetic answer. And and I'm I I know at that point that it's not that they can't learn math, but going from on a in a structured fashion through algebra is not the answer, is that I I have to kind of like tie in math and poetry, which is very challenging but also very fulfilling. Um it's I and I was not like this. I just want to clarify that as uh as a child and a teen and a young adult, I was um I was an extremely linear neurotypical learner, uh, in the sense that I was all about hitting deadlines and I was very academic, and I was like, I'm gonna go this and I'm gonna get into this college and I'm gonna clear this entrance exam. And I was very much like that. Um and I believe I until I actually hit college because I I wanted to get into the Indian Institute of Technology, which is very hard to get into, and I did, but then I kind of um for some reason, like there was a break in my linearity, which I didn't recognize, so I just didn't do well in college at all. I mean, I was like the straight A, like X, like ridiculously good student until college, and then suddenly there was a break. And I have no idea. I think I feel like I was maybe preparing for this somehow. But like by the age of 18 to 20, I just like I didn't I I didn't know what to do, so I continued on the path. I continued to get a PhD, but it was really hard. If you'd asked me when I was in 10th grade, everybody would have told you like this is the person who should get their PhD because I was like like this, but but I somehow got my PhD. Um which allows me to put a doctorate in front of my name and nothing else, but like I which is why I at this point I don't really value degrees. I do have two masters and a PhD, and I can tell you how um little they mean yeah because you can actually learn because it's a very linear pathway, and I convinced myself to go through that linear pathway for a very long time until I realized that okay, this is this is nonsense. I need to stop now.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

So fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

I was just speaking with someone the other day about university in the states, which of course is very costly for people. And I thought, is it even really necessary anymore? And I went to university, I had a scholarship like you. I was the type A linear thinker. I I I loved school, I loved learning, and I loved doing well with it. You know, I I had a very achievement-based personality. You know, I think I got myself worth from how well I did academically back at that time of my life. And and it's been so interesting for me, that former type A, I say recovering type A person, to really embrace there's not a right way to learn. There's not a right way to grow and find your path in life. And I was listening to a podcast a while ago where someone was interviewing this really high-level entrepreneur who built multi-million dollar businesses and his children were about the age of our sons. And she asked him, Are you encouraging your kids to go to university? And he said, Absolutely not. He said, Of course, my son wants to be a doctor, so he might have to, again, to get the board certification thing going. He said, But my daughter, absolutely not. School doesn't teach you to learn, it teaches you to follow the rules. He said, I told her when you finish high school, you want to work in interior design? Great. Go find the best interior design firm in the world. He said, tell them you will work for them for free for two years. And I will, if you show up and you are a dedicated employee every day, I'll make sure you have a place to live, I'll make sure you have food. But after two years of you being the best employee they've ever had, of course they're gonna want to hire you. You're gonna know all their secrets, you're gonna be the best employee, and you'll have the training you need to go have a career that you love, but you don't need a degree for that. And it was so disruptive for me to listen to it and found that I agreed with what he was saying because I was the person who was raised that you have to go to college, you have to get a scholarship, you have to do these things. But do you? And now we're seeing with our children, but is there even only one way to learn and find your path and your joy in life? And most people I speak to who have college degrees never even use them.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

I do want to, I want to, I want to place, I agree with you 100%. I'm gonna place a caveat as well. That I think that type A moms that have been in a very linear path make excellent speller parents. And and the reason is that you have to experience that to know that it doesn't work. Okay, you have to be type A to know that you don't need to be. But your ambition doesn't go. And then you're if if I was not super ambitious with Sid, I was not ambitious in a typical way, but I knew I wouldn't have never presumed intelligence in a boy with Down syndrome and autism and non-speaking. Like, there is no way on earth that I would have presumed intelligence if I was not this. So I'm very grateful to my ex-ego, like my like it was ego-driven. It's like, I am so smart. How is it even possible? Like it was a very immature ego. I mean, it's not, but it worked at the time. I don't think like that anymore. But I was like, how is it possible, regardless whether my son has Down syndrome or not, that he cannot be smart? It it was it the right thinking, no, but it helped pushed me on. You know what they say about ego is that sometimes it can, it's the good thing is it can move you forward. Like the function of the ego is to is to like push beyond fear.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Yeah, thank you for saying that. That's so important. And it it reminds me to be grateful for that part of myself too, because you know, in my years as a yoga teacher and a yoga student, which I still am, perpetual yoga student, you're sort of taught to let go of that achievement side of you and just be present. And and I am really excited to hear you talk about being grateful for this part of yourself because it was there for a reason. I remember being in that meeting when the lady told me that my son had an IQ of 40 and that he would never learn this, he would never learn that, he would never have the core strength to ride a bicycle. And I remember just sitting there with this smirk internally thinking, I'm gonna show you. Just just watch me. Just you wait, just you wait. You have no idea the fire you have just lit under me. And I'm I'm so thankful that Rocco is able to benefit from that. And it's also been interesting for me to pull back in certain ways and say, okay, now it's time for me to follow your lead with learning. Now it's time for me. You have a voice, we worked hard for it. Now it's time for me to listen to you.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

That is such a subtle nuance, which what you said is that we need that ego, we need that push, but we also need to let go. So the the place where we um that where a parent can get stuck is that if they're if they're too caught on, I need my son to be better than the others, but that that would be like where it's it's kind of your your ego's tanking the whole situation. So you need that push, you need that ego. You'll often, if you find um, you know, artistic students who are doing really well, you will see a type A parent behind them. But they I mean, but ultimately the most functional situations are where they can start there and then let go.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

Yeah, I think that sometimes the type A energy can cross into unhealthy when it becomes too much about proving something. Is your quality of life really going to be improved if you prove something to someone at the IEP meeting? Or can you just go live your life being a parent with your child and allow whatever you're working on to improve your life in your home together? I think that's an important distinction. I recently was speaking to someone who was putting so much pressure on herself to film every single one of her son's spelling sessions because she felt like she had to take all this evidence to this school meeting to prove how smart he was and to prove that he could do it. I said, Do you really think they're going to watch hours and hours of his spelling videos anyway? You'll be lucky if they watch one minute. Like, take the pressure off of yourself. Just go live your life, make a highlight real, you know, in a minute to show them one minute of his highlights at the meeting. And that's it. Otherwise, look at how much you're draining yourself to prove something to someone who may or may not even care. Like that's your thing to heal. It really has nothing to do with the district. Who would you be if you didn't have anything to prove? Yes. Absolutely. It's juicy. It was juicy for her. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. And I think it's also challenging when parents in our population have been wired for hypervigilance for so long that when things start to go smoothly, they'll sometimes find another area to be hyper-vigilant in. Like I have to take every single video spelling sessions and send it to school. Do you, or is that your old programming, which maybe it's time to pull back on a little bit and read about? That's the hard part.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

I think letting go of hypervigilance is the hardest thing ever.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

I would love to know from you letting go of not only hypervigilance, but I've heard from followers who are in the Down syndrome community that they've had to work really diligently to let go of lack of presuming competence, the inability to presume competence. I've heard, we are not part of it ourselves, but I've heard from many of them that themselves, in their children, and and when and themselves too. But when they start presuming competence in their spellers who have Down syndrome diagnosis, many of them are getting shunned by other people in the community because there seems to be really rigid thinking around what an individual with Down syndrome is or is not capable of. So I was wondering if you could speak to that because you have that experience.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Yeah. And I'm also very lucky in the timeline that it happened with Sid, is because I um Sid never fit into a Down syndrome or an autism box. So I never, and I had uh, you know, when I was meeting with other kids with Down syndrome, I couldn't relate so much because Sid's developmental delays were so much more significant. And because we suspect he might also have a diagnosis of cerebral palsy. So in the first few years, we didn't. But I also um nobody convinced me to presume competence. It it I made that decision one. There is a very critical decision I did, and I encourage parents to kind of reflect on this. Is that through a series of events, it wasn't, of course, it doesn't mean that I did everything by myself. There were multiple people involved in the situation, but nobody had to convince me. That's it. There were there was people like there was just like I was seeing visionaries like Soma around me, right? But um but when Sid like um demonstrated in fact, it was a school system, it was an online school that requ that asked me to give him a diagnostic test for grade two, and I remember laughing in their face. I was like, what are you talking about? Sid doesn't even understand his own name, he can't do a diagnostic test. And they said, We are required to ask you, we don't care about the results, just just so it was a multiple choice question. And I had read a little bit of Soma's book by the time, so I tore the answers into four pieces. Like it was like a you know those geometric puzzles, like if there's three dots and then there's six dots, what is the next number of dots? Something like that. Something that was neurotypical second grade. And I put the four choices in front of him with no expectation. He was on his high chair where he would eat, and he just he wasn't even looking. He doesn't his vision and motor visual motor skills aren't like integrated. He just lifted his hands and batted at the right answer like this. I'm and I've talked to many parents since then. And a lot of times parents will say that, will assume that's a fluke and ask him to do that two or three times. And I am so grateful. I mean, I could have done the same thing. For whatever reason, I didn't. I just assumed, okay, what if it was not a fluke? What if he knew what he was doing? I think that single incident, I just changed the way I spoke to him and everything. And it was just like I just decided maybe it's not a fluke, but I'm not gonna ask him to repeat it. And I'm gonna presume he knows what he's doing. So there and combined with the fact that I saw Soma soon after, it's like multiple, it just kind of cemented in me assuming intelligence. You never should have to struggle to assume intelligence. It is not a gradual process, it is a switch. Okay, you turn it on and you leave it on. That's it. So it's not um, if there are voices in your mind saying maybe that's not true, maybe give yourself a time commitment that for six months I'm gonna talk to this child as though he or she is is is an age appropriate. I'm just gonna talk, it's just one way, right? So maybe give yourself a time commitment, give yourself 21 days or whatever the habit formation gurus say, but I don't care, but something. But it it is a switch. It it is not something like enlightenment, I suppose. It's not something that you can struggle to and and fight to achieve. It is a switch, but it is also a switch you can turn on in yourself. And at some point you have to decide if you want, if, if, if yes, the fact about community is true and it's real and it's unfortunate because more than the autism community, the Down syndrome community is very tied into the idea of intellectual delay around which the entire community has been structured. So I understand that. The services provided to the community, everything is designed about this, around this assumption of low IQ intellectual delay, uh, intellectual disability. Is it real? Is it not? We have no idea. Is it real in some people? I don't know. I like to assume it's not real in anyone, but I don't, again, I don't want to um it it it breaks your whole narrative, right? Assuming that, oh my God, what if this is not true is too much of a leap for some people. So you're gonna face resistance from the community. In autism, this is not the case because we've had savants, we've had artistic geniuses. It's very easy to make the leap. Okay, so it's not that the it the Down syndrome community has had it harder because the definition of Down syndrome is intellectual delay and disability. So are you gonna get pushback from the community? Yes. Are you gonna listen to it? That is your choice.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Oh, so powerful. Reminding everyone, you have agency and you get to choose. I think that element of choice is so simple, but sometimes people forget when they feel like they've been conditioned a certain way.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Yeah. So long, but I assume the feminist movement was like that, right? At some point, like women that decided to be feminist were probably shunned by other women who didn't who thought that stepping outside the home was like was changing their whole narrative.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Oh, yeah, of course. Absolutely. I think we see a lot of martyr mentality as well. In my work, I see that a lot. People have been conditioned to believe I'm only a valuable parent if I give up my whole existence in favor of my child's. And sometimes it starts from a loving place of, oh, I'll just do this little bit extra to make sure my child is okay. And then it slowly becomes this snowball effect. Then they, you know, a few years in, forget who they are, they stop taking care of themselves. And I spoke to someone recently who said, you know, I cognitively know that I should take better care of myself. My blood work is telling me that, my doctor is telling me that. But then when I hear about someone, you know, going to fitness class for an hour, I just think, how could they do that? I could never do that. But it's a choice that she was making to never do that. And so I think we as parents have to become really deeply conscious of these moments of choice that can almost pass you so quickly, you gloss over them, but they're so powerful. Like that moment when you chose not to assume that it was a fluke that Sid hit the correct answer when you were asking him those questions. You chose in that moment to presume competence. And this is something that you can do no matter how much money is in your bank account, no matter what your child's diagnosis is, or what you've been told about them. It's a choice that you get to make now. Um, Dr. Vaish, I was wondering if you could share with our parents who are probably listening to this and thinking, oh my gosh, this is so amazing. Now what do I do? Where you would direct them. And I know you have some great supports that they should know about.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

Um first, I would say that I think everybody should be in a breathing meditation or mindfulness practice. Because if you cannot create space between your thoughts and your choices, you will not be able to make any of these. So, in a place of overwhelm and discomfort, um, it this is not gonna happen. So these things, those that that that that choice that I made to decide it was not a fluke. Um, the choice that you are able to make to not be a self-sacrificing parent and to choose the right thing and to decide that I'm not gonna listen to this narrative comes in both of us from years of mindfulness and meditation practice. Okay. So it that was preceded by uh 15 years of meditation. Okay. So and then at that point, my brain was able, there were there are separations that are possible. So I would actually put that forget about spelled communication, go do a meditation, practice, and then come back.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

Thank you. I feel like I need to give you a standing ovation for saying that. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Yeah. And then if if you have the space, I am um in your mind, I mean. Um I my I have my signature course that I offer once or twice a year. It's called Nonlinear Education, it's a six-week guided program. Um you do not have to be a sp, your child does not have to be a speller or communicate in any particular way, because like I said, you can educate even if a child doesn't have a communication method that you can tap into yet. So the education, there's a lot that you can do as a parent to work with your child in a nonlinear way. That my whole my whole aim is for education to spark joy in the child and in you. And a lot of times when parents do nonlinear education, like the one thing they do is like, I feel happy with my child, I feel connected, like I feel like there's trust and we get along as opposed to this like stress. The you lose the stress of parenting when you can talk to your child with joy. But but if you're ambitious, there's space for that too in nonlinear education. So yeah, and um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

And a question about that is this the type of program that would also benefit individuals with ADHD who have verbal ability or non-linear learners who might present with different motor planning, or is it exclusively for non-speakers, individuals with Down syndrome, et cetera?

SPEAKER_01 43:09

It is um more for speakers for non-speakers, but also for minimal speakers. So I would say if we're if if we had to put a label, I would say for level two and level three autistic people.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

Okay. Thank you for the same.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

For parents and Down syndrome, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Okay. Because I I'm seeing now people who have other children, even friends of mine who have children who do not officially have autism, who are struggling in school because the typical way of linear learning is not working for them, but they're not finding other solutions that are bringing them joy in learning anymore.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

It is much harder to be in that space as a person with, let's say, I'm I'm kind of dipping into labels a little bit, but level one autism than it's to be a level two or a level three autistic person. I think the space of education and communication is actually easiest for level three because you. You have no choices. It's easy to go into spell communication and nonlinear education. In level two, you think something is working, but it's actually not working. So you're kind of in this delusional state. So it takes a little bit more to come out. In level one, it's more the case because you're actually in the system and you need to go to linear pathways to get a degree. And you're capable of doing that. You need it's very hard to step out of the system. In level three, the system has thrown you out anyway. So it's like, I don't need it's very easy to say, I don't want to go to college when like most colleges don't want you anyway. So but when uh in in level one, it's it's very hard. So I would say that it's it's it's it's a tough balance.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:40

But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

And with your nonlinear learning, how does it work when someone signs up and says, Oh gosh, this sounds perfect. How can this help me?

SPEAKER_01 44:50

It's uh the course is online and it spanned six weeks, and I have um, and I think kind of the the the the nicest and the most beautiful and the most productive part of the course is like while the course is accessible to you for a lifetime and you can go and listen to like very short lectures, they're also very nonlinear. Um, but it is the QA sessions, which is which is more than a QA, it's kind of a personal guided uh it's a group session where I guide the group through or the cohort through through the learning and give them like specific, very actionable tasks. It's it's I've designed it to be very actionable so that you have like a couple of things that you can do for the week and then come back and then yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

And is this for a certain age range of people? No, no, okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Any age range, you can start anytime.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

Yeah, so cool. It it's so exciting because I think this fills a really important gap that people are hitting. And I've seen this a lot in my client work, where people realize the traditional linear model of education is not working for them, so they opt out. And then they're faced with this huge question of now what? They're either confronted with really rigorous academic homeschooling options, which, like we said before, take the love right out of learning, or they're left with unschooling, which feels really unstructured and unsupportive because we know boredom is a fast lane to dysregulation. And so parents are struggling with this big question of now what do I do? So everyone who's listened to this podcast, now you know what to do. You can find Dr. Vaish and you can enroll in her program and you can go back to loving learning with your child again. Go back to sharing an experience for both of you. Again, I think that's something that I've taken to heart that I really try to shout from the rooftops. When I do something with Rocco that helps him learn, I receive just as much from that experience, not only the educational part, but I also get to share an experience with him. And if we can approach education from that place, if we get to do this together, what a gift we get to share this experience together. It changes your whole outlook. It gives you so much more endurance on the academic pathway because it's not a results-based thing anymore. It's really about learning and growing together. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

That's all it's about. Dr. Vaish, is there one last piece of advice you'd like to share with anyone listening that you'd like them to know?

SPEAKER_01 47:22

That it's not just your child that's capable of more than you think. You are also capable of more than you think. We need to start presuming intelligence in ourselves, in each other, um, and in people around us. And um, I would say go meditate. Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

I have nothing to add. No notes. No notes, except my heartfelt gratitude for you and the work that you're doing. And it's such an honor to call you a colleague and a friend. And hope this is the first of many collaborations that we do together. I hope so too. Thank you so much, Sarah. Thank you, everyone. Thank you for listening. We can't wait to hear your insight. So find us on social media. Talk to us. We're real humans, we're real parents, we're in this with you, and we want to know what your takeaway was from this episode. Thank you for being here with us, and we'll see you soon.