Resistance vs Discord in Motivational Interviewing: How to Handle “Resistant” Clients

In this episode of MI For Change, we explore one of the most misunderstood concepts in therapy and behavior change: resistance.

What if your client isn’t actually resistant?

In Motivational Interviewing, what we often label as “resistance” can be better understood as:

• Sustained talk (arguments against change) 
• Discord (a breakdown in the relationship or communication) 

And that distinction can completely transform your sessions.

In this episode, you’ll learn:
 • The difference between resistance, sustained talk, and discord
 • Why labeling clients as “resistant” can be harmful to the therapeutic process
 • How to recognize early signs of discord in sessions
 • Practical Motivational Interviewing questions to reduce defensiveness
 • How to shift from confrontation to collaboration
 • How to bring conversations back to trust, curiosity, and partnership

If you’re a:
 • BCBA
 • Therapist
 • Psychologist
 • Counselor
 • Educator
 • Or anyone working with behavior change

This episode will give you practical tools to improve communication, increase client buy-in, and create more effective sessions.

Remember:
 It’s not about controlling the client…
 It’s about guiding the conversation.

Learn more about Motivational Interviewing and explore on-demand courses at www.drmonicagilbert.com

Join the MI Academy for practical training and resources — and enjoy an exclusive 15% off with code MIFORCHANGE at checkout.

📲 Connect with me on Instagram: @drmonicagilbert

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Am I for Change, where we speak about motivational interviewing and how to have better conversations that actually move people forward using motivational interviewing in real life, real sessions, and real leadership. So if you want to hear more, you are in the right place. And today we are talking about Discord and resistance. So let's talk a little bit first about resistance. So when we talk about resistance and we say resistance, I'm sure that we can all think about what this looks like. When we think the word resistance, perhaps someone pops up, perhaps an event pops up, something pops up in your mind where you can vividly see it or recall a time when someone was resistant. For me this morning, my kids were resistant to getting up and doing what they had to do on this beautiful Saturday morning. So that was that's what pops up when I say resistance. So resistance is something that we can all understand. When we say that someone is resistant, we already get an image of how this person is. Now, resistance has long been used in the field of MI to describe clients' behavior. However, it can be problematic when used to describe their behavior. First, the term can seem judgmental. If you're going to start working with a parent and someone tells you, hey, that parent is really resistant. Or if you're going to start working with a client and someone tells you, I used to work with that client and they are super resistant, you already go in with your wall up. Everyone. This happens to everyone, I'm pretty sure. So it can seem very judgmental when you're already categorizing someone as having resistant behaviors. And it doesn't really respect the person's autonomy. Are they resistant or are they grabbing on to their autonomy? Are they resistant for not wanting to do this? Or is it that their values align with something different? And if their values allow align with something different, then are they really being resistant to me? Or are they just voicing out what they want to do instead and what it makes more sense to them? So that's something to think about. The other reason why the term resistance can be very problematic, it's that it is unilateral and does not include the therapist. So it doesn't include you. And we're saying this client is resistant, we are shifting all the blame to them. And we are not taking our responsibility for that conversation or that interaction. And it's not to say that it's the therapist's responsibility or it's the therapist's fault or anything like that, but we are the ones communicating. We are controlling what comes out of our mouth and how we are using it. So we do have to take responsibility for that, for what's coming out, not how they're going to react. You have no control of that, but you do have control of what you're going to say it and how you are going to say it. So instead of using the word or the term resistance, the newer edition of motivational interviewing breaks that word resistance into two components. One is sustained talk, and the next is discord. So let's get over the sustained talk so we can get into the discord. So sustained talk are conversations, are words, are sentences, anything against change talk or anything against change, the opposite of change talk. So change talk when we are working with a child that has, let's say it's a child that has a lot of these aggressive behaviors in school and we're speaking with the parent about it. The parent saying things like, Yeah, I can see how this behavior is getting in the way. Maybe we should look into trying a new intervention. That's change talk. Or even like, I see how that's becoming a problem. That's change talk. Now, a parent saying, I think he's fine. I think that he's just being a boy. That's sustained talk. Or we've tried a lot of these interventions and we just don't think it's gonna work. Sustained talk. Or something like, well, it's a teacher's responsibility to deal with those behaviors, not really us, sustained talk. So that's a quick comparison of change talk versus sustained talk. So in the field of MI, we like to categorize it like that. Is the parent or is the client that you're working with engaging in sustained talk rather than just saying that they are resistant? The other component is Discord. So what is Discord? Discord is basically the interaction or the communication of the therapist with the client, is how things are going. How is the conversation going? Is it a friendly conversation? MI uses a lot of metaphors. So one of the metaphors is are we dancing together or are we arm wrestling? And I'm sure that you can think about conversations that you've had with other people. And maybe it was this morning, maybe it was a couple of weeks ago, a couple of months ago, that some of them were just so fluent and they were beautiful. And it was like you were dancing together, and others were just not that good. They were very aversive. Um, it just seemed like you guys were were in a match to see who won. So we all have those situations and those examples that we can go back to. So what we want to see obviously is more of the dancing and less of the discord, less of the arm wrestling. Um, and in that, we tend to use motivational interviewing techniques to first prevent that conversation from getting to the discord. But also, what do we do when it does get to that discord? And how do you identify it? That's what we're going to talk about today. So, first, how do you know that a conversation is getting to the Discord? Well, we start seeing the signs. We start seeing more sustained talk. The parent all of a start, all of a sudden, starts engaging in way more sustained talk. And everything is a no, and everything is like, well, how do you know? And they're putting it back on you. So we we start seeing that increase in sustained talk from the client side. That's the number one sign that, hey, this is going towards that discord. The second thing to look for is just the physiological or the nonverbals. So we we start seeing the body tense up. We start seeing the arms cross. We may start seeing that client distance themselves or that parent distance themselves from us. Sometimes it's even literally in the session, they will sit in another chair or they'll start getting up, or or you'll start seeing these behaviors. And that's how we can tell that, okay, there may be discord. We also see um more of that, not hyperventilating, but the breathing. The breathing increases as well. And again, the biggest signal is the sustained talk. The sustained talk is becoming stronger and it's becoming more intense and more frequent. That's how you know that hey, I am going towards Discord. So, what do you do in that situation? You do not call it quits, you do not just leave the session, you do not cry. Okay. Um, I'm gonna give you guys some questions that you can ask that can bring the session back to more of that dancing atmosphere that we want it to be, right? We want it to be a situation where you are stepping in where they need it, and then they're stepping in where you need it, right? If we think about salsa, for example, if you're dancing salsa, I was going to, I think it's called Salsa Kings here in Broward with my husband. I know how to dance salsa, but my husband doesn't. So I said, okay, I'll go with you. And oh gosh, he just he has two left feet. I feel bad, but he does have two left feet. So he was with the partner, and I was just looking from from glancing over there. And whenever he in salsa, when one foot goes forward, then your partner's foot should go back to allow your foot to enter the space. So it's like a give and take. Well, my husband was putting the left on the left, the right on the right, and he was stepping on that poor girl. But this is an example of how our conversations are sometimes. The parent or the client is saying something, and we're kind of saying the same thing, and we're stepping in when they're stepping in. So it's important to learn how to step out and when to step out and when to step in. And you learn that with experience and with practice and just knowing how the conversation is going to flow. So, how do we get back to that? How do we get back to that or just redirect the conversation? So, depending on what the conversation is like, and obviously it's better if you start asking these questions prior to it becoming discord. When you start seeing some of these pre-behaviors to that Discord, it is important that that's when you should intervene. The same way that when we work with our little ones, we don't intervene in the full-blown tantrum. We want to intervene in those those behaviors that lead up to that. So when you start seeing it, these are some questions, and I'll read it off my screen, which I have here, that you can ask clients. So the first one is what do you think your child or student, if you're working with a teacher, might be trying to communicate through this behavior? So, what do we do with this? We normally this one creates an immediate shift from blame into curiosity. And I've spoken about curiosity and the importance of this in the past, and this helps the person see the behavior as communication. So if you're working with a teacher or a parent that is just like, this is not a bad behavior, or this behavior just comes out of nowhere and you're kind of going back and forth with them, then throwing in this question allows them to brainstorm and also evokes some things from them, evokes that solution from them. But again, it brings the conversation down. Another question is if things were going even a little better, what would be the first small sign you notice? So this moves a conversation from stuck in the problem to imagining progress, which opens the door to the solutions. Again, these questions are a gateway. You are drawing the door, and of course, you want the parent or the client to turn the knob and walk through it. What do you think your child or student needs most from the adults around them right now? So, what do they need most? This question often creates a pause and perspective shift, especially in emotionally charged conversations. Another question When have you seen even a small moment where things went differently? So this helps them discover exceptions, which often leads to insight about what is already working. Sometimes we have parents that are like, nothing is working, or maybe a teacher in the school. I've tried so many things, nothing seems to work, I continue doing it, and I just none of this works. So asking that question allows them to peek into it. And I understand that perhaps there is a possibility that they can respond with nothing. I see nothing. And then we can kind of probe and say, well, how about this? I've seen a little bit of this. What do you think? So the question doesn't have to die there. Another question. This is powerful because it activates empathy, which often reduces resistance immediately. Remember that those resistant behaviors are in a way there to protect our nervous system, to protect ourselves. We build up a wall, which is this resistant wall, because we feel in danger, because we feel like someone is attacking. So whenever you feel like someone is attacking, I know that sounds very dramatic, but we think about it in milliseconds. We think about it so quickly that we don't really interpret what we're thinking. But we build up this wall when we feel like this other person is going to attack us or this person is attacking us. And then the resistance, exactly what the name implies, is us coming in with our tools and things like that and just blocking whatever it is that the person is going to tell us. What you want to do in the conversations, just so you can picture it a little more, is that you want that wall to start coming down. And in order to do that, we have to come in with curiosity. We have to rebuild that trust if we lost the trust for whatever reason. And it's really with the goal of how do I bring this wall down? Because while the wall is while the wall is up, it is impossible for you to try anything, for you to have a conversation. It's going to be a battle. So, how do we bring this wall down? And sometimes you have to wait for the next session. Sometimes during that session, you'll try these questions and it's like it's met with more sustained talk. And you can just call it a date. Just say, well, this is how the conversation is going to go. Try to reduce the conversation and try to end it with a positive note. And then maybe next time you can try again. Um, it's really things that we can control. Again, the only thing we control is the way we, the conversations and the things that come out of our mouth and the way that they come out of our mouth. So if that's what we can control, let's do a good job at doing that. So this is at the difference between resistance and discord. And my my tip, if you want to call it a tip for you all today, is or a summary, right? Like a summary better. A summary of all of this is catch it before it gets bigger. So before the discard the discord starts brooming up, try to catch it and start asking these or other open-ended questions that pull the client back to that curiosity rather than that defensive mode. And also remember the spirit of MI. Remember that partnership. You are there with them. And even saying it in the session, remember, mom, I'm here with you. I want to work with you. I'm not doing parent training to you. We're doing it together. So even saying that is so powerful. And bring them back to that spot if you feel like it's going to the Discord. And how do you know it's going to the Discord? If the sustained talk increases or intensifies, it is probably going that way. And the beauty of it is that you will see a complete change not only in your relationship with them, but also in the buy-in. And who wants to be in a defensive conversation where you're battling? Like I sweat when I had these conversations or I've had them in the past, because inadvertently, I mean, they they do happen anyways. You know, you're getting out of there, you're like frustrated, your heart is beating, um, you're mad, the parent is mad, and you didn't, you didn't get to to anything. Nothing came, nothing fruitful came from that conversation. So sometimes take a step back, and if it's too tense, we will just reconvene in the next session, and that's absolutely okay. So I hope that you guys found value in this MI episode, and I hope to see you for the next one. Thank you for joining me on today's episode of MI for Change. If you're ready to keep growing your motivational interviewing skills, I'd love to invite you to explore my MI Academy, where you'll find a full library of on demand courses designed to help you put MI into practice with confidence. You can learn more at www.drmonicagilbert.com. Until next time.