Planning and Educating for Long-Term Care with Lawrence Vivenzio

In this episode, our guest is Lawrence Vivenzio, Director of Business Development at Assured Allies. His entire career has been dedicated to working in the long-term care insurance industry, from field-level sales and worksite enrollments to consumer and agent education, and even a stint as an agent himself. We start by talking about his grandmother, Hope, and his family's journey into caregiving while he was in college. He later discusses his path into the industry, the role education plays in building a solid aging plan, and the latest product innovations shaping the space.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

What have you learned by watching someone else struggle? And how did it change your path? Welcome to the in-between years, where life doesn't come with a manual, but we've got the mic. I'm your host, Holly Westerveldt, and our guest today is Lawrence Vivincio. He's the director of business development with Assured Allies. He is a self-proclaimed long-term care lifer, and which that means he's always worked professionally in the long-term care industry. He's done a host of jobs, including field level sales, he's done work site enrollments, he's educated consumers, he's educated agents, he's been an agent, and so many other things. So as you can see, he's gonna bring a wealth of knowledge and just a whole bunch of stories to this conversation. And we are so excited to have him here today. We're gonna start by talking about his grandmother hope and his family's journey into caregiving while he was in college. So, Lawrence, I thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing Hope's story with us. And if you wouldn't mind, you know, start out today by just telling us a little bit about Hope and how your family came to have to care for her.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Yeah, no, absolutely. And thanks for the introduction, for having me. And uh, I'm hopeful, no pun intended, that everyone gets to learn a little bit of something just from our journey. And that's the whole point of sharing our stories, right? Is yeah, you know, what can we learn from each other and you know allow the next generation of our families to have a little bit of an easier path or an easier journey. And that's why we're all in this business is to help people plan for these events. But we didn't call her hope. She was grandma noni to me. Yeah, but everyone who met her was just like, gosh, she is the sweetest lady ever, and she totally was. And I remember at the time she was probably 87 or so, and had only stopped driving a couple years prior to that.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Yeah, her genes were incredible. And we always joked, we anything she would eat, she would put Tabasco sauce on it, and we would say, That's what's keeping her alive, it's keeping her going, keeping her spicy.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

It's good secrets of life, right there.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Absolutely, Tabasco sauce on everything that'll do it. But we went to visit her about 87, I think it was, and she was in independent living, so just you know, in an apartment that was 65 plus kind of thing, and still she was an excellent pianist. Like if you know, oh, it was a Chopin, it was some Chopin etude, the revolutionary etude.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

It is like an impossible song to play on the piano, and she just had it in her head. And she had for years. I remember that from when I was really little. And she was still playing her piano and everything. And we noticed she lost a ton of weight, so we started scheduling some doctor's appointments, trying to figure out what's going on. And eventually her doctor said, Well, other than being anemic right now, there's nothing wrong with her. So then we started paying a little more attention, and my mom picked up that she wasn't remembering to eat.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Oh goodness.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

So we then, you know, got her evaluated by a psychiatric professional and you know, didn't think to ask the obvious. And I think unless you dealt with this, you probably don't think to ask the obvious. And there's a lot of, you know, we'll tie into assured allies and what our wellness programs do that prompt people to kind of pay more attention to the quote obvious, right? You know, so we didn't think to ask, hey, what's your address? Right. What was your last address before that? So I remember being, I don't know, roughly 20 years old at the time and sitting through this appointment and going, oh wow, she really can't remember this stuff. And that was her dementia diagnosis. So, you know, shortly there and she moved in. Uh, and she lived with my parents for roughly five, six years, I think, maybe longer. I was there for three of them or two of them before I had that next phase in life, a kid going through college. Yeah. And it was an interesting journey. It had its fun moments. So she was about five, two, you know, cervical kyphosis, which is kind of the you know, the hunch in the neck if you don't know what that is for folks out there. And no matter where we moved the liquor cabinet, she'd find it. Like, doesn't matter how high up it was, we eventually had to padlock the thing.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

So, you know, it had its moments, and you know, she'd find it.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

That's great.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Or I never had a pet until I was 16, right? And my my parents got this bass announce, right? And my mom would treat her like a person and like cook her food and things like that. So my grandma kind of caught on to that, but what she didn't realize is that you can't cook it in a rubber dog bowl. Oh, so you know, we'd come home and find dog bowls melted to the stove with, you know, the rubber lining on the bottom that kept it from slipping. Uh, and then all the things that came along with it, you know, you'd have to lock the door to the stairs to the basement. You know, so there it had its comedic moments. The liquor cabinet was the keeper, but uh, you know, that also had its associated dangers. Of course. But yeah, it it was quite the journey. And, you know, I think the big takeaway is try and ask the obvious and be observant for the simple things that we all don't think about every day or take for granted. For example, remembering to eat.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Ask them what they had for breakfast. Well, I can't remember. Sometimes means I truly had something and I can't remember, but other times it literally means I didn't remember to do it. And I would have never thought that until I went through it.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Yeah, yeah. And also, even if they did, like my mother-in-law is going through this journey now. And to ask her what she had for dinner, she might not even remember that she ate it, even though she did. Um, you know, and certainly couldn't tell you what it was. So, you know, it's a good thing. But those little questions and paying attention, I think that's a great piece of advice. And it's one of those things, you know, families, you know, as our loved ones age, we don't always have these kind of discussions. And we don't always talk, number one, we don't always ask those questions of our loved one, but we don't always talk among ourselves either, of you know, comparing notes or, you know, just making sure that those kind of things are okay. So, you know, given your depth of uh experience this industry, I mean, what additional advice do you have for people to have those discussions maybe earlier later, you know?

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Yeah. Just the simple prompting of that opening question, what's your plan? Goes so far. And to tie back to that time in my life, I never knew heard once the term long-term care. And you know, what kid had, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

But you know, the way I put myself through college was I was working at and helping manage a really nice area restaurant. And one of the regulars happened to be, and for those of you who listen and know my story, you know who I'm talking about. Uh, I'd say an industry legend, kind of like a founding father, if you will. And he ran a small agency in New Jersey that turned out to really not be small. I my initial thought was it was. And the restaurant owner, when I was towards getting my degree, basically said, Hey, you need to hire this kid or you're stupid. So he hired me. And that was my entry into the long-term care arena, was working for an MGA in northern New Jersey. And I remember thinking, this is like learning a new language, just with how products worked and all the different elements and pieces. And once it was there, right? You know, once you can fluently speak a language, you fluently speak it. But then I thought back on, I didn't know any of this existed. Like, not just how to do business in the world of, you know, independent distribution insurance, but what this stuff is that, you know, health insurance and Medicare don't pay for it. Education, the simple prompting of what's your plan and understanding the next pieces and having the right specialist or professional there to provide that education, the earlier the better. Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

I think that's a very interesting point you make about the right person there to provide the education. Because not, you know, I spent a long time in insurance, all of my career, but not all of it was in long-term care. And I wouldn't have been the right person to advise somebody on what to do or or what actions to take. I mean, I knew it existed, I knew people should have it, but to really tie that together, you've really got to go to somebody that knows and understands what this is.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

So I think absolutely, and who can provide realistic advice. Most folks in our industry ultimately are trying to help people with a plan. But that plan, for someone who's 30 years old and single, perfectly healthy, has no kids, that plan might be to wait. Yeah. Everybody needs a long-term care plan. Some people are gonna hate that I just said that. Everybody needs a long-term care plan. But for that 30-year-old who, you know, really doesn't have income yet or assets yet, or even call it the 25-year-old. It's not really a suitable sale, right? Everyone needs a plan. It doesn't necessarily mean they need to be sold insurance immediately or sold a hybrid product immediately. Their plan might be to wait, but having that education plants the seed at that young age that the problem will be there in the future and helps them be cognizant of planning at an earlier age and not waiting until they're 75 and uninsurable for most options. And, you know, there are solutions for that out there now. There's excellent hybrid products out there now, especially the hybrid annuity products, you know, to speak with the assured ally's relationship with Equitrust, where people who are 75 who have a married health issues are very insurable, potentially at the best rate. But planting that seed early about what's your plan allows them to think about it. And that seed will germinate and break over time and then be a you know sapling or eventually grow into being a small plant. That prompting at a younger age, sure, not just you know, our parents or grandparents, because more and more, not just kids, but grandkids are watching this happen and know it's going to become an issue.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

I say it all the time. Everybody has a cure story. We've done it personally, we've watched our parents do it, you know, we've watched our grandparents go through it. Like we all have a story and it impacts us. And if we don't have a plan, which most of us don't, like we need one. And then we can talk, you know, later on about how do you fund that plan and what does that mean? Absolutely. That's a whole different conversation.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

And you mentioned my agent training and education background.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

That's one of the first steps in the process. You know, when people say, Hey, I have Mr. Client, you know, sitting on the couch in front of me, you know, what are the first steps of the conversation? And quite literally, step two in my book is get them to tell their story and then you tell yours. Yeah. And I always very emphatically say, if you don't have one, like bless you, but get one. Like I'm thrilled you didn't have to live through this in your family, but you can borrow one from a friend, a neighbor, uh, you know, a distant family member very quickly. Yeah, because almost everyone has one. And if you don't make that emotional connection with the client on the topic, they're not going to see the need for a plan. So you need a story.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Yeah, 100%. 100% agree. So let's talk about. I mean, and so many of us go through it without a plan. I mean, that's you know, what your family ended up, you know, having to go through, and so many others do. And all we can do in our profession is try to do better. So talk to me about, you know, the industry just a little bit. Like there's a lot of changes. You mentioned, you know, your partnership with Equitrust and what that is. But but tell me given your long tenure in this industry, what changes have you seen in the industry? Good changes, bad changes, and how do you think that's impacting people that uh and their choices along this journey?

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Yeah, yeah, goodness. From a product solution standpoint, I think the regulatory environment has made truly innovative and different products difficult to progress, right? So I've been in this world now for 16 years, and we've really seen a lot of the same things, right? So over let's rewind 16 years, right? LTC specialists really mostly sold traditional long-term care, and it was sold with 5% compound insurance, right? Back when I started, we were able to say there's never been a rate increase. Yep. That changed very shortly after I started in this world. Yep. So we've seen that evolve, and we've seen 5% turn into 3%, or then 2%, or 3% for 20 years in different pieces there. But we've also seen LTC specialists who primarily did hybrid product or long-term care traditional products evolve into these, hey, these new hybrid products, and now they use them every day.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

And now we have, you know, more innovation on the annuity hybrid space as well, which personally, from my very biased standpoint, or where I am right now, I see as being the way of the future for many long-term care plans and new designs, because you have the ability to innovate with process, with having the financial asset as the chassis, you know, to say, you know, to cite that product as an example, you know, hey, when you first go on claim, what are you really using? Well, you're using your own annuity money. So why would there be an elimination period? There shouldn't be. It's your own money. We're not going to restrict you for 90 days to access your own cash. It's like saying you can't go to your bank account for 90 days when you go on claim. So you're seeing these elements of innovation come out, and you're seeing innovation and process with a very streamlined digital underwriting type of process. And we're seeing, even on the traditional side of the business, you know, more streamlined AI even evaluating, you know, milliman records and electronic medical data to come to a decision sooner. So I think we're seeing process innovations, we're seeing product innovations. And we'll see where 16 years from now the industry is. Yeah. But it's been an interesting journey.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

It definitely all makes it easier for the consumer to get through the process of purchasing and also to have solutions. So because not everybody that that is listening out there is in this world, let's talk about an annuity-based product and what that means to a consumer. And so think about this. And I want to tee this up for the consumers out there. So many people have money that's sitting in a savings account or a money market or a CD or even a traditional annuity that we've that they've purchased somewhere. We're not necessarily, you know, that that's sitting there for the tomorrow money or the money we want to pass on to our grandkids or whatever. How does that factor into uh to an annuity-based long-term care product? And you explain that a little bit for people.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Yeah. Yeah. And what comes to mind when you prompt me there is I don't want to credit the wrong company. But roughly 20 years ago, one of the original hybrid, you know, life carriers came out with this mantra or sales pitch or kind of paradigm of live, die, or quit. Yep. With these hybrid policies. You could have benefits if you live and need care, you have benefits if you die and you don't, or you have benefits if you want to take all your money and run, or a portion of your money and run, somewhere 80%, somewhere roughly the same amount you put in, et cetera. With the annuity chassis, you add a third or a fourth rather thought bubble to that three bubble tree that now becomes four. And it's live, die, quit, or grow. Okay, because the hybrid life policies, with the exception of a few, really weren't designed to be big cash accumulation vehicles and have major liquidity features. With the advent of an annuity chassis, you know, and the most current versions being very competitive annuities, like even if it's stood on its own, they're competitive products. If you live and need care, you have excellent leverage for long-term care. If you die and you don't, your annuity account value goes to your beneficiary. Gains are taxable, it's not life insurance, right? If you want to take your money and run, Ken, same story, gains are taxable. If it's for LTC, back to this thought bubble, tax-free LTC distributions up to the per DM maximum. But if you're 78 and something hits the fan and you have no other potential cash flow vehicle, take a withdrawal. It's your cash, it's your money. You know, you'll proportionally reduce your LTC, but you know, a lot of the ways I see very successful producers talking about this is saying, look, Mr. Client, you know, do you have safe money somewhere? Well, yes, I do. Well, what shelf is it sitting on? You know, is it in a safe in the basement? Is it under the mattress? Is it behind the drywall? Or is it literally just sitting on a shelf in the closet? What if you just moved it to a new shelf? It's still your money. Yes, there's fees for the long-term care. That's how you get that leverage, but you're protected from downside market risk, right? So having that chassis, I think, is bringing serious innovation to our world, still providing excellent LTC coverage, providing a little bit more flexibility, all with, you know, a very streamlined underwriting process that Assured Allies administers for a carrier partner.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

And it's been, I think, something that's been very eye-opening to a lot of people in our world of long-term care planning.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

I think there's one other point you kind of very briefly smoothed over earlier that I want to talk about because I see that as an innovation that's happening too. And that's some of the wellness benefits and some of the things that that people can do, you know, before they're needing this, or, you know, in addition to just having that protection out there, talk about what that innovation has been like and how that can help consumers.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

And that's been huge. And that's really something at Assured Allies, we have we're founded on was the way I describe Assured Allies, and I might get in trouble for this, was a bunch of people very much smarter than me got together. And for the most part, in my brain, they were in two groups, physicians and data scientists. And they basically said, how can we help people age more successfully? And developed these wellness programs that were now integrating into new business insurance products. At first, assured allies focused on enforced carrier blocks to say, hey, if we can take your people who are going to go on claim soon, put them through these programs, we think we can delay the need, right? And save you X amount of money. And now that it's integrated into new business insurance, we're seeing even more success with that, with you know, the current insureds. And we're seeing excellent net promoter scores from those who participate. We're seeing excellent uptake rates on oddboarding. It's been a very successful program that we're going to continue to watch blossom. But it goes back to what we were saying with prompt the simple questions. Think of the obvious. Yeah. That we is so obvious we don't even think to talk about. Are you remembering to eat? There was a meeting the other day with our wellness team, and they were giving this great example of potential trip hazards in the home. Right. And for this one particular person, it was about decluttering the stairs. This person could still ambulate, right? They were not near needing care, but they tripped over something in the stairs once.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

But they didn't think of the obvious, which was get everything off the stairs and assess that every day, like especially towards the bottom. It was like that's where the packages went, the this, the that, you throw your coat down, it falls off the banister, right? So eventually, you know, the part of that wellness program that built them to, hey, when you think of the stairs, there's a light switch on the top, there's a light switch on the bottom. Every time you're about to flip that switch and go up or down the stairs, assess the area. Move the things away first and make sure the stairs are decluttered. And eventually, what's that going to do? Hopefully help them from falling down the stairs, breaking something, create, you know, an issue that will then be a sooner issue because of the deterioration of that or potential hip surgery or whatever, right? And eventually it will create the habit that there's nothing on the stairs. When we think wellness, we hear that term. Everyone thinks they have to like train to be a decathlete. Our programs are more focused on successful aging. And that is a very small example of one. You know, everyone thinks physical strength, but that doesn't necessarily have to be it. And that's relative. It's different for everybody. There was one great success story in an internal company meeting that was highlighted about a year ago. And step one for this one gal who had a little bit of social anxiety going on, too. And it was interesting to watch her intake call and just her demeanor and her personality and her confidence level, and then her call from six months or a year later or whatever it was, and she was literally a different person. But her first step, her first goal in her wellness plan was look, I just want you to step foot in a gym. You don't have to talk to anybody, you don't have to lift a weight, just walk at the door, assess the situation. Yeah, report back, tell me what it felt like. What'd you do? What'd you experience? What do you think is a good logical next step? Were you comfortable? What made you uncomfortable? Because for some people, that's the first step. Yeah. And we don't think to ask the obvious of hey, does going there, just the thought of going there, make you uncomfortable? So, yes, the wellness programs that Assured Allies has been developing are the base of what we. Do and have been an excellent story in helping people. Or even there, here's another one that popped into my mind just now. There was an advisor who sold herself an insurance plan with our never stop wellness program built into it. And her plan was to not use it. But it automatically came with the product for a year, right? You can opt out in the second year. So she said, you know what? I'm going to give this thing a try. She told me she was surprised with how much she's enjoying the program and how frequently she wants to interact with her wellness coach. So even, you know, the people who go into it, because I'll still have agents, you know, who might ask about, you know, a product for sale on the market and say, do they have to do this wellness thing? I was like, not necessarily, but not only with the way this is integrated in the product, are you earning more benefits? But we're finding that people who don't even think they'll want to do it are really enjoying it because they're not training to be a decathulate. They're not going to go on world's strongest man and flip over giant monster truck tires. It's about things people want to do that people can do, and that will help them along their aging journey. You know, that's what it's all about.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Meeting them where they are, which is huge in getting them there. I think that's just a wonderful innovation. And I don't think as an industry, we always share that enough, you know, that that's just a whole additional benefit. You know, yes, you're getting the protection. Yes, you're funding your care plan, you know, and all those things, but we're also helping you be more successful in how you age and have a richer, fuller, healthier, hopefully, life.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Yeah, you know, and another simple example of that, we now know there's studies, we probably many of us have probably read it, that link hearing loss to earn earlier, accelerated aging and earlier onset of dementia. Yep. And for any of you, obviously the first step, if somebody says, I want to hear better, that's part of this wellness plan. The first step is go get a screening.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

But for most of us who don't think beyond the being in the journey and asking the obvious, that's the end of it. But it's not.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

For any of you who have had a relative with a hearing aid, you know the screening getting done isn't the challenge. It's getting it off the dresser and into the ear. Yep. Once a day.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

That's the challenge. And those are the kinds of things that our wellness programs and our coaches will help with.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Very interesting. And something definitely for people to check out. So we're coming close on time here, but I do want to end with one more question for you. And that is, you know, what is one thing that you think people need to know about the journey into caregiving? Like, what do you need to know? What's going to surprise people about caregiving? What last piece of advice do you want to give people?

SPEAKER_01 24:46

No, goodness. Other than plan ahead, not to be too blunt for an open access podcast, but it's going to stink.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

It's going to it's going to stink. Caregiving is rough. Like it is emotionally, financially, physically taxing. And when you have those things weighing down on you every day, plan ahead. Just having the resources to get a little relief will be tremendous. Yeah. Yeah. Tremendous. I mean, I don't want, you know, my kids to have to, you know, come home and wonder where their grandmother and their mother or father is because there was an accident and now they're, you know, going through a bathing thing because there was an accident in the living room when they're coming home from college. Yep. Plan ahead. It's not easy. In fact, there is finally more research and data out there on caregiving and the stress and the toll and how it impacts work life and family life and split families because geographic dispersal has become a bigger and bigger problem when it comes to people's long-term care plans or lack thereof. Right? People don't grow up and die in the same city anymore. Right? Maybe the parents might stay in the same city, but their kids are, you know, from New Jersey to California to Wyoming to Florida to Virginia. Well, when the parents are alone in New Jersey, who's going to do what when? Who's got to move back? Who's needs to move their own kids who might not have kids? Who's going to argue over that? Have a plan. And I think it ties back to the first bit we touched on. Prompt the very simple question. What's your plan? Or what's our plan if mom or dad or you know Uncle Jeff need long-term care? If they can't bathe dress or get out of bed tomorrow morning, who's going to do what when? Let's think about this.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

And how long could the resources last? So just prompt the simple and think of the obvious.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Yep. And then reach out to a specialist to help you fund that plan when you have it. Yeah. I love that. That's great advice to end on. What is your plan? Get a plan together and have that conversation. So I, Lawrence, I thank you so much for sharing your story, for sharing your family's story. For telling us about hope and all the great stories about her. It sounds like she was an amazing lady. I really appreciate your time and all of the insight and advice that you gave to people. So thank you for that. And everyone, please look for the next episode of the In Between Years coming your way next month. Thanks for listening.