Faith, Soap Boxes, and Hobby Lobby

Today, Lizz joins Andrew at his home studio!  The two catch up on what has been happening in Lizz’s life and how she has been preparing and processing her move.  They then discuss the spiritual gift of Faith and how it applies to Andrew’s struggle with disillusionment.  This leads to a conversation about the need for imagination in a life of faith in God.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello. Oh hey.

SPEAKER_03 0:03

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Eternal Creatures Podcast, of course, recorded at home. Brought to you by Andrew's apartment. Yes. But guys, this time I am not alone, which is so nice. Liz is back, ladies and gentlemen. Hey. Welcome back, Liz. It's been too long. It's been way too long. I've missed headphones on my head. Well, here they are. Ta-da! Ta-da! Y'all, welcome back, as course, to the Eternal Creatures Podcast, the podcast for people who view the world just a little bit different.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

A little bit.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

Just a tad bit. Not even that much. But um uh today's episode is dedicated to people who rev their cars in enclosed spaces. I don't know if I've dedicated to this to y'all before, but um, stop. That's really all I gotta say. Bro, I was in the tunnel yesterday trying to go to the our little dance thing because a bunch of our friends went to uh this place called the bank.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

There's no cash.

SPEAKER_03 1:01

No, uh, except the cash you give them. Cash was $7 to go in there and sit down and eat a mid-burger. But uh, this is not dedicated to the bank. Uh but nah, there was some dude in a sports car reving his crap and just the tunnel reverberating with just the most loud, obnoxious noise in the world, and I can't stand it. This crap used to happen to Nova all the time because all of our parking lots are frickin' enclosed. So all the people with sports cars who think they're sick. There's a stereotype there too, I'm not gonna say it. But certain people, it always was. But uh, we're gonna keep that in the thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

You know, when I hear cars revving and I'm with my friends, especially my girlfriends, I'll just shout after the car. I'm like, oh my gosh, you're so hot. Oh my gosh, take me out on a date.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

I don't even think that's the thing because they usually have a girl in their car with them.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

But yeah, it doesn't matter. Old, young, paired, not, I'm just like so hot.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

And I don't care. I get it. It sounds cool, but it hurts, bro, in the enclosed spaces. Like it's cool on the road, but when you're in like a little box and stuff, that hurts, bro.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Just be considerate. Yeah, stop. The equivalent of someone farting in an elevator.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

Well, that's a little different. I might embra I might prefer the rev people than than the uh than the elevator farters. Uh they're not. Y'all y'all have a different issue.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Well, thank goodness it's not dedicated to you today.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

Yeah, thank, thank it. Maybe. And if it is, it's not gonna be a good day. You might want to turn that episode off. But yeah, no, this episode is dedicated to y'all. Relax, all right? Stop revving your engine, turn on the podcast like this one, and uh you just cruise. All right, we get it. You got a cool car. Stop. All right, let's start the episode.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Hey Liz. Hey Andrew.

SPEAKER_03 2:50

Hey Carol, how you doing?

SPEAKER_00 2:51

I'm doing for those who don't know. Uh I'm moving now officially. Well, not officially, but it now it feels real.

SPEAKER_03 3:02

No, let's not give them any intro whatsoever. This I'm happy though. I'm sure the the audience is like, all right. Well, we got three weeks of Andrew. Like, what's up? Where are the people's?

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Well, we took June off because we all had what Andrew said, things going on. My thing was trying to figure out my life. But in the midst of it, lovely.

SPEAKER_03 3:29

Um, this is this is uh this is some pretty r rough stuff right here. This is okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

It's okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:37

Low budget potting. But I love it, it's so great.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

In the midst of June, um didn't really get anywhere. So the only thing that I had secure was my mom in New Jersey. And she's so gracious. She's letting me move home. And I don't know. I'm I'm grateful. I actually feel like I was productive this week because 80% of my stuff is in a box in a commercial like semi and is heading on up Route 95.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

She's been sending us pictures uh all day, and it's been uh it's been pretty sad to see. It's been pretty sad to watch the uh the the the decline.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

What have you thought when I sent you pictures and stuff?

SPEAKER_03 4:21

Uh it's the end of an era.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

It's the end of an era. I don't really I don't know. I don't really I told Liz this the other day because we were watching the World Cup game with some friends. By the way, if there was one if there was one complaint I had, it's England how they lost, but we'll move on. Um I might give you all that later. But um we were watching the World Cup games that day with some friends, and I was telling you afterward that I don't know if I realized like just how significant a friend you've been to me in this time, and it's gonna be very weird living in this town without you. And so um but at the same time, the time between you leaving the position and actually um like still existing in this town, yeah, and and actually moving has been so long, it doesn't always hit. Now, for some people like Brooklyn, it hit immediately.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

No, she's in denial.

SPEAKER_03 5:23

Well, that's why she's in denial. Because she recognizes it. I'm not in denial because I'm over here like Liz is still here. I got plenty of days to see her. Now that those days are coming to a close, I'm like, ah, shoot, this is I know it's like the homies.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Now I'm like counting down the days with the homies. Yeah. Not even like the people who I was like, ah, I have like eight weeks to hang out with, I'll see them once. It's like, no, no, no, no. Like the homies. Yeah. I'm counting down those days.

SPEAKER_03 5:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

And I feel like that one guy on Instagram with the hottest homie and a hoie in my hand, toes in the sand, life's good.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

I'm not on Instagram that much, apparently. I have no idea what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Anyway, homie dude, I love it.

SPEAKER_03 6:06

Oh shout out, homie dude, I guess. But uh, yeah, okay. So you're packing. You're starting to it's starting to become more real.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

What uh I don't know. What what are your what are your thoughts around it all?

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Well, around week four or five of unemployment still in this town, I was starting to realize like I was grieving a life that I made in chaos.

SPEAKER_03 6:38

Hmm. Okay, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

And I mean, I don't want to say chaos, like everything was blowing up, like not that, but there were a lot of uncertainties in my life right after grad school. And so you think your first job, you think your first department by yourself, like this is everything for me specifically. And there's a lot of unknown and building blocks, and graciously, I have to tell myself, you've only been a 20-year-old for five years, so you're like a five-year-old adult. And I am just like, well, we can take this bit by bit. And there were a lot of different things that um that happened over the last three years have been really encouraging, really challenging, and then really just like, what is going on upside down? And if you think about the grief cycle, some people say there's only five um stages. But one of my friends, and I heard this the other day, which makes me like question a lot of things, is um not question, but wants me to be curious about is the sixth stage is called making meaning. So instead of just like being okay with it, like what is the thing that comes out of the thing that you're grieving? So a lot of people are like, when you lose a significant other, when you go through a job loss, when there's a traumatic accident, like what is the making meaning part out of it? And I don't think at the beginning of June, I was ready to even look at that question because I was so in the other stages of grief. But I think right now I'm more open to getting rid of like harboring the resentment or the anger or the frustration of the season and just be curious at poking around to finding small bits of meaning in the midst of the season. And I have a lot of meaning in this season. That's not to say there's nothing, it's desolate here, it's beautiful here. It's also interesting to see like how I'm proud of the life that I made in the midst of a lot of unknowns, a lot of things in the air, a lot of, wow, I didn't think I would be here, or whoa, I don't think that should have happened to me, or maybe I wish I was a little bit further along in some aspects of my life. But at the same time, like it was so funny, like taking in the bank last night. The bank is the line dancing place we were talking about, and I'm like, this is such a weird place to say you're gonna miss. Like in its small little making meaning. So like, okay, so why why is this something I'm gonna miss? I'm like, well, I branched out and made friends, and we all shared in a hobby together, we all looked forward to a weekend together. Like, these are small little things that I don't think I would have found myself wanting to be grateful for until like it wasn't gonna happen anymore.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

Yeah, I can see that. I can see that. Um I don't know why this is the question, and maybe it'll make sense a little later, but what do you think about the concept of the gift of faith?

SPEAKER_00 10:04

The concept?

SPEAKER_03 10:05

Yeah, because I know all of us as Christians, right, are supposed to live a life in are supposed to live a life of faith, right? We can't know God fully. So the aspects of the unknown are the is where we're supposed to have faith in him. But what do you think I think recently as I've kind of been learning a bit more about spiritual gifts, and by recently I mean like within the past year, of being more involved in the church and kind of understanding more of the inner workings of church language and spiritual gifts and you know, charismatic, all that kind of stuff. The concept of faith versus a gift of faith seeming, and I don't want to make one higher than the other, but like it seems like to some people this might be uh just a gift that they have that's a little bit stronger for than maybe another's.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Yeah. I get really confused because I always asked like our leaders, I was like, what's the difference between faith and the gift of faith? Because it felt like one was like lowercase F, like basic salvific faith.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

And then like we have faith in who God is through love, and like we hold faith through through every day. But the distinguishing between everyday faith, the gift of faith, and salvific faith, um always tripped me up. I feel like we were told like the gift of faith was like for miracles. So like extraordinary like things. Okay. But I'm not sure if if that's the only applicable definition. Right. I think there's this the verse of the day for the recording of today is like, and the peace of God will surpass that surpasses all understanding will rest upon you for those and like guard your hearts and mind in Christ Jesus and Philippians 4. And I think that connects to at the end of like when you come to the end of yourself, like you just have faith. Um I love this episode because it's making me think on the spot, which is like good. Um I like the concept of faith um as a dialogue in my office that I used to work in. I had two photos, and one photo was my favorite verse, and the other photo was Hebrews 11, which is the they call it the hall of faith, is like the title in like modern Bible. You don't actually have titles in these letters, they're just there's it's just a letter.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

We would call it the hall of faith, too. That's such an American thing to LeBron the to like LeBron Moses, like it's like it's the hall of faith. Yeah. And this year's inductees.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Abe. Rahab. You know, she did make it. She did? No, she did. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

I'm pretty sure she's like crap. Is my theology that crap? I thought it was Rahab. I mean, yeah, but Rahab. I was like, I think I know that one.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Uh I want to hear your thoughts on it, too. I'm gonna throw out a song by Benjamin uh William Hastings.

SPEAKER_03 13:37

And you said you had no music. Look at you.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

I didn't. It just came up in the dialogue.

SPEAKER_03 13:42

And that's why I bring you the pod.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Faith is. The whole concept is like he's trying to again explore this concept of faith, and he ends a couple of the songs in different um questions or statements. Like the first one, it says, Maybe faith is a gift that you wasted on me. Maybe faith is a gift that I'm yet to receive. And it's just a lot of these questions on like walking the Christian faith. It's like, I don't I don't actually understand what faith is. Um, but again, back to Hebrews 11. Hebrews, the writer of Hebrews says, faith is yet the things of assurance that we have yet to see. But does that mean the gift of faith is for the faith for things that are not seen that are bigger? I I don't know. Read that quote again.

SPEAKER_03 14:42

I know you gotta pull it up.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

The song lyrics?

SPEAKER_03 14:44

Yeah, the song lyrics.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Uh the first one says, Maybe faith is a gift that I have yet to receive. And then the second chorus ends in maybe faith is a gift that you have wasted on me. Because he's it's a very like contemplative song.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

And then the last last chorus says, If faith is a gift, give it to me. Go listen to it. I like the acoustic version better.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

What's the song again?

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Faith is by Benjamin William Hastings.

SPEAKER_03 15:11

I gotta listen to that. I don't remember the song off the top of my head. But um I ask because I think there are certain traits or characteristics or behaviors or whatever that we all have. Some people are just better at it than others. Like I think organization is like that, for example. Like I think some everybody can be organized. Some just are naturally good at it. And other people have to work at it.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Yeah, I'll agree with that.

SPEAKER_03 15:44

And s because to some degree, everybody has to be organized in a way, in a way.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

Right? And so everybody has to build some sense of organization in order to like keep a job or something like that. Um but some people are just so good at it that if they're in spaces that help them be highly organized, it is um like it it just flow it flows with them. Whereas other people, if you're in a very highly organized space and you're not that kind of person, it can be incredibly stressful.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

And vice versa.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

Yeah. And so I wonder sometimes if when I when I view the gift of faith, that's kinda how I see it. Is like I wonder if some people are just better at being Faithful? Faithful, but faithful in the sense not in the sense of consistent, but just in the sense of like not having to know.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Like the spirit of it. Yeah. Not like the doing of being faithful, but like like the confidence. Yes. Holding fast. Yeah. Hebrews talks a lot about holding fast or keeping the fr keeping the faith in the forefront. And I'm like, yeah, not my strongest suit.

SPEAKER_03 16:56

What well what made me think of it was when you talked about meaning making and uh of this time. Yeah and wondering kind of what that process has been like for you since beginning it.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

Or since being given the time to even sit with your whole experience, sit with the emotions left over, the feelings left over on day-to-day, and what that has been like for you, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Aaron Powell I don't know if it's considered faithful or the gift of faith, but I think it's me continuing to surrender this part of my life to the Lord and really believing that He does make like beautiful things out of ashes.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

And he can do it immediately with some things. He can give me the little like, hey, this was good. Like, oh, I need to shout out someone later. But anyway, my friend Kathleen was like, hey, like, just know that you have made an impact on like so many people while you've been here. Because getting stories from people like asking about you and just wanting to say thank you for your time here. And so like even those little things from God are like meaning making, even if I feel so removed and distant and quite opposite of those feelings. Like I don't feel like engaged with that part of myself right now. Yeah. But it's cool to know that while I was here, even in the midst of a lot of questions, like the meaning making is God still used me to bring people closer to him. And he didn't have to use me. And he didn't have to use me while I was broken. And I'm trying to let myself hear those things, believe that they actually happened, and receive like the God's God's um, I hate using like cliches, but God's in the business of using broken people. I hate cliches so much. I I just can't.

SPEAKER_03 18:59

She's so she's so agitated. We don't have a video of this one, but she's so upset. I'm so disappointed in myself. Sometimes it fits, unfortunately, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Yeah. I just I think the meaning making, I really just want God to like play back the last three years in like a film reel and be like, this is what I was doing behind the scenes with this. This is what I was doing behind the scenes with that. And luckily, I have the rest of my life, because my brain loves to do this, replay every event in my life. But I want to ask him to be like, do it for the good parts and not the bad parts. I mean, go through the bad parts and show me how you were building up like you in me, or building up others through honest conversations, or teaching me to rely on you, or making me realize like, hey, you have a stumbling block. Like making meaning out of this, I just don't want to say that I wasted the last three years. My mom actually called me out. She's like, You didn't waste it. I'm like, but I wasted it. And she's like, stop that. So stop that.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

Um, I'm gonna try and grab this magazine that's over there with my uh handheld mic.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

But I can tell a story while we're waiting.

SPEAKER_03 20:18

Well, in the meantime, because I still technically have a mic, how's my audio?

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Uh your audio?

SPEAKER_03 20:24

Yeah, from your angle.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

It sounds great.

SPEAKER_03 20:26

Fantastic. I'm still Y'all, I'm still working on like audio, like hearing. What I mean by that is like Producing. Yeah, I guess producing, but like when I was helping with the tech team at uh at Y'all's Church, that was something that I realized like the really good audio people were able to hear like the little the frequencies in audio that's a frequency trainer you can download. Is it really?

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Yeah. It's a game.

SPEAKER_03 20:54

Is it really?

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:55

Oh, send it to me. I like games. Um But you had a story. Go on tell your story.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

Uh I was just gonna share earlier you were saying how grateful you are for me and a friendship and you know, hair flip this, that, whatever. Yeah. And I am equally in probab I don't know if more, but like at least equal because I think we have a high respect for each other. Um I in I don't know if I actually embarrassed you. I feel like I embarrassed our friends at my birthday party when I was like, I want to read everyone's card out loud in a group because I didn't want to read my birthday cards by myself.

SPEAKER_03 21:41

Like you didn't embarrass me, I liked it.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

No, but I embarrassed everyone else. They were all like, how can we f and the reason why I say it was Andrew has a really good way of seeing people and calling out like how God designed them and just articulating. Things very beautifully. And so, like, that was one of my favorite moments of our friendship. I also appreciated the first time we ever grabbed coffee. I thought it was going to be an hour. We we probably closed the shop down in four hours.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

Yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

So it was fun, though. I didn't realize how much of a friend you were going to be in this like year and a half part last part of my life here. And I am eternally grateful for you. So thank you. Yes. That's my story.

SPEAKER_03 22:33

I appreciate that. I'll take that. I didn't pay her to say that. Um just with a coffee. Yeah, that's true. Half a coffee, honestly. She was like, Can I make a coffee? And she went through all the process of making espresso, and I gave her like three ounces of milk. I was like, ah shoot. I do it.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

It's a little quartado.

SPEAKER_03 22:48

Yeah. It's great. Quartod-like. It's quartz.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Shout out to Pei.

SPEAKER_03 22:53

Quartad-ish. Oh, yeah. Well, that coffee's not from Pei.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Oh, but the jar is.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

The jar is from Pei anyway. Pei is my favorite spot. But um. Okay, so I asked you about uh about the meaning-making aspect because I think that is what I do as well.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

The eyebrows are giving it away.

SPEAKER_03 23:16

Well, I think it it exhaust me. Alright, so follow along with me, people. I think you and I are very similar to some degree in the way that we think, and I think that because of the majors we both chose.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

I'm so disappointed myself right now.

SPEAKER_03 23:38

Well, you are in music.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 23:42

I'm in nature.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 23:44

We both chose industries that understand the inner workings of the most magical aspects of life. And so the kind of brains I think that either that one comprehend that and also even want to. Because I think there are some people who can comprehend it but don't give a crap. It's like, yeah, great, uh, trees are sick. Like I don't I don't get I don't give a crap. But the kind of people that like will go behind that I think sometimes our brains, as beautifully contemplative as they are, make faith really hard.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 24:32

Harder maybe than someone who has like a gift of faith in a way.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Yeah, I feel like it's the more like some people when they stare at a painting, you could stop at the surface and just be like, this is a lovely painting. And then if someone who studies art or who is like um finds a lot of joy in it, they'll take it a step further, which is like, all right, like let's see the knots to this era, let's study the author's life, let's look at the modes in the the medium and the theme of color, and like then they actually get a richer meaning because they understand more. But I think what you're saying is they they have the ability to have more of a beautiful experience with the painting, but it might take a little bit longer because they're gonna have to ponder it more to make meaning out of it, versus just like a naive younger eye, which is like, whoa, that's really pretty. It doesn't mean like the younger people or like less experienced people can't have as beautiful of an experience, but it's like the intelligence and the knowledge to notice the intricacies and even the knowledge to question things and seek the meaning of choices, the meaning of decisions. Like that actually makes it more beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 25:55

Yeah. I think it can it in the way that makes it more beautiful, because I agree with what you're saying, right? I think part of I think even uh nature for me, even as a kid, was always my belief in God before, or like affirmed my belief in God before I understood God whatsoever. And so for me, how intricately woven all of nature is and how adaptable it is, um for me it was it it took it made it didn't make evolution unreal because I think a lot of people misunderstand what evolution ca typically is. But it made the idea that nature made itself, essentially, um, or that it all started from something that already existed in the world, it made it um just not make any sense to me. To me, it it it drew to intelligent design.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Aaron Ross Powell So it made you be like, there has to be something greater than just what I'm ig the systems and the adaptability of nature was pointing to something create greater than itself outside of itself.

SPEAKER_03 27:05

Yes. At the same time, though, I do wonder sometimes if I lose the magic of the fact that the thing even exists, because I understand a lot of how it exists. So in the way that some people use nature, like they understand nature to such a degree that they almost use it to disprove God because it's like, oh, we understand everything. Like we understand how, like, what chemicals go into this, we understand what like the chemistry behind it, the biology, the ecology, all this kind of stuff. We even understand some of the history behind how species are created and all that kind of stuff. I wonder sometimes if that happens even in a God-centered way. In the sense that, like, yeah, yeah, you get everything about the tree, but the tree is still magical.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

What?

SPEAKER_03 28:00

Just because you understand it I also can't lose the the greater picture of the fact that the tree is even here is something beyond like leads to something greater in a way.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

You know who's really good at noticing the magic?

SPEAKER_03 28:20

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Kids.

SPEAKER_03 28:21

Kids, yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

And I wonder, and the gift of wondering is also I feel like I read a Substack or a mar magazine article on like obtaining the gift of wonder again. But what if the gift of faith is actually less of a an intenser, like, oh my gosh, I can believe for more, I have faith for more like less of that. What if it's just like like to have faith like a kid is the gift of faith?

SPEAKER_03 28:50

Yes. I think so. And I think so. This is kind of getting to where I was thinking when I update on my life, and I know y'all have had a lot of updates, but I think I'm realizing that I'm just very disillusioned right now.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

How Sam?

SPEAKER_03 29:06

Um my entire I'm in transition. I'm in life transition. And my entire kid upbringing was this idea of who I'm going to be. And I'm uh of me being uh essentially I I've always been interested in nature, obviously, but then you know, I would watch people like Crocodile Hunter and all this kind of stuff, and I was like, I don't know if I want to be you, but I want to do what you do. And as you grow up and you realize, oh, okay, well, specifically what they do is actually really difficult. It's actually like a very rare thing.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Just rustling crocs.

SPEAKER_03 29:46

Yeah, it's also far more television than it is real.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

You mean scripted, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:51

Well, yeah, it's exactly. It's scripted, but it's also planned. Like it's not like the amount the like when you actually get into the industry that theoretically there would be in in ecology, wildlife, all those animals that you see every episode, you don't see those in the real world.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

Aaron Powell What do you mean? I can't just go see a peacock whenever I want.

SPEAKER_03 30:11

Well, a peacock maybe, but but like when they're picking up like great whites, it's like most of the time you're in the ocean, you're not gonna run across a shark. Like yeah, most of the animals you study, unless they're like really small and theoretically uninteresting, they're not uh you're not gonna see them. And so a lot of it is just being in the woods, being in harsh conditions. Putting and looking for signs. You're looking for tracks, you're looking for you're looking for pictures, you're doing all kinds of stuff, but it's not nearly what you think it is. So now you gotta take that kid dream and put it in real-world uh concept and say, okay, do I want to do this? And if you say no yes, then you keep going. If you say no, then you gotta pivot. I said no, I had to pivot.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:57

Okay, now what do I want?

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Because at one point you're you're still wanting to be doing work with your hands that is in line with something you're passionate about, you're excited about, you've had dreams about since you were younger, but the work looks completely different.

SPEAKER_03 31:14

Yeah. Yeah. And so I kind of feel like I'm going through something similar to a retired person, except I have the thing of I've got many, many more years when I'm 28, I've only been an adult for however many years. Like I've got years and years of work ahead of me. But now I am out of a long-term thing and but have no plans forward. And the and I compare it to a retired person, especially, and this will probably be big for our parents and their parents, because in their generations, they're more likely to be in a long in a job for years.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Yep, it's cultural.

SPEAKER_03 32:00

Yeah. You find a job, your job probably, depending on the job, makes enough to buy a house. You get a house for your family, you stay, you build a consistent, safe life, and you just keep going.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Yeah, they didn't have time. I don't think it's they didn't have time to dream, but like the concept of dreaming has become more available to us as more opportunities and avenues have opened up with time, technology, and industries becoming created.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

Yeah. Yeah. And their world was just different. Like nowadays, like if you listen to anybody who talks about career growth, it's it's about jumping around. It's about like going from job to job and building your career that way. It's not the same with them.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Which is so funny because my mom's been in the same field for almost 40 years at this point.

SPEAKER_03 32:48

Yeah. And so now people get retired and they realize, oh crap, I've been doing the same thing my whole life. I haven't really had to, I've only had to be so creative. And now I've got and now I'm retired at 62 because I'm too tired, my body is too tired to keep doing this same grind, and I make enough money to let go of it, but I'm reacting to the tired. I'm not pursuing anything further. So now I'm just up trying to figure out what to do with my life.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Yeah. I think something that I'm really excited about is like in the next season as I move, is I want to look at my whole life as 160, 168 hours of trying to find the most joy. Because I think in this last season I was too confined to making my 40 hours, which turned into like 65 or even 70 hours, maybe even 80 if I like tried hard, you know, like mentally worrying about it, everything. Like it was all drawn from a work source. And I found out like a few nights ago, like going salsa dancing was so great. Going line dancing was really great, wanting to do this. And like, how can like I use the most of those hours every week to find the most joy with everyone? Because yes, work isn't important to the Lord, is I I stuttered. Work is important to the Lord, work is pre-fall. Like the Lord put Adam in the garden to work the grounds before sin ever entered the world. So I honor work, but how can my life not just be about work and what does it look like to include the rest of my passions and stuff outside of those hours?

SPEAKER_03 34:38

Yeah. And that's a that's a great point because even the way I viewed passion, it was all based on going to college, making your passion your career. And now when I realize, oh, that's actually a lot harder than you think. Than people think. And we have, I forget where I heard this. It might have been John Nordberg, but we have such a limited understanding of ourselves. Like for me, most of my childhood science, science, science, I'm going into the science industry. It's not until I get into high school that I get this like real love of performance. And like all my extracurricular stuff, because we didn't have, you don't have wildlife-related stuff in high school, so you find extracurriculars. And I really love theater, I like show choir, I like even uh speech and debate that allowed for a more creative writing concept. Like there was a whole creative side to me that enjoyed particularly live performance that um I didn't even know about. And so I'm in this transition of realizing, okay, the work world is not always what you think it is, or not what I dreamed it to be. My passions aren't as stable and consistent as I always think they, or or as simple as I think they are. And so now I'm in this place of like, okay, well, I feel like I'm leaving one season of my life, but I'm stuck in that in-between of I don't know where the next season of my life is. And that whole meaning-making concept, for me, I spend so much time of my day trying to do that because I am trying to figure out what is next. Where am I going? What is the point of today, yesterday, and potentially the future? Like, what are we doing? But it's an exhausting way to live. And for me, it I think it almost increases my religiosity because I'm trying to like dig into all right, how is a Christian supposed to move in this time? And but what it's kind of ending up creating is almost this like exhausting faith. It's this exhausting faith life of constantly feeling like every moment you've got to learn every moment, you've got to be find the verse that motivates you in this hour or motivates me in this hour, helps me get the next push forward, helps me believe, helps me this. And maybe a part of it is being new to even the concept of actually trusting God. But I think the other thing is trying to figure out what is faith really.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:24

And mixing it up for me as someone who has to look behind the magic or behind the mystery of stuff, or at least that's what my brain kind of almost enjoys doing. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong, by the way, with that kind of brain. Like that brain, I think, makes planes, for example. Like it finds all the chemicals needed to get this sky bus to go from New York to California in seven hours. Like, um, so I think it's a good brain, but learning how to attune it to a life that cannot make meaning of everything, or cannot find the correct equation, or cannot find the details. To the point where I almost sometimes think God almost enjoys like not uh letting us understand everything.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Like Thanks, God.

SPEAKER_03 38:17

Like showing us like Yeah, no, you understood that part, but now here's this. Maybe that's just my brain, but I do think that is probably one of the bigger things that I'm dealing with now and in this season is trying to figure out how to make how to exist without making as much meaning. And just trusting that there is meaning, but not having to ponder it or think about it or ask about it constantly and be like, okay, how do I almost it's almost like how do I just experience life and less always have to look under the hood or try and look under the hood and figure out how to do it right in a sense. Yeah, but so that is I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

I was I don't know what you if you struggle with that at all, if you're if yours is a little different because you're coming out of a different situation, like I think making meaning for me is less of an everyday activity and more of this um grieving process.

SPEAKER_03 39:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

I'm not looking in year two of this job, I was not looking for making meaning. I was asking questions, why am I here? But also like, I'm cool, like gonna go hang out with my friends at cookout for like three hours.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

It was like being I'm grateful I asked the questions all the time to God because it meant like an openness towards him. I think now more than ever, I am probably more demanding that the meaning would be revealed to me. But I think that still going to God with that posture of, hey, like I need you to show like what was supposed to come out of this to me, that's a good prayer. Doesn't mean he won't answer it like at any point. It just might be at a different point in my life. Yeah. Um, but I think that's just an honest posture for the Lord for anyone who's grieving and going through seasons of major transitions, like seven at the same time.

SPEAKER_03 40:30

So that's a good point. Just kind of just kind of being honest with where you are, and I think asking anyway. And I think just by the nature of existing with God, we just will practice not having answers.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:49

And you either sit with it and let it stress you out, but I think even then that's a lesson in itself of like part of the reason I'm even wanting to change is getting tired of the stress or getting tired of the headache of constantly reliving in my own head or thinking about myself and figuring out, okay, what's a better source of what is a better source of of of time?

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Do you want another cliche?

SPEAKER_03 41:17

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Worrying is a waste of your mind when it should be imagining.

SPEAKER_03 41:25

Go into that.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Worrying is the worst case scenario, and you're using the same brain power to predict the future, or not predict the future, but to dream. But instead of like dreaming, you're actively choosing to have nightmares.

SPEAKER_03 41:39

Oh, interesting. Why you say you're actively choosing to have nightmares?

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Well in worrying, like everything's going wrong. So for me, that's a nightmare. I mean, what else?

SPEAKER_03 41:52

Things are messing up. It's my worst idea. It's the worst thing that can happen. I don't I especially you, you're dumb orderly, so it's just a whole things going wrong is just things out of order, which is off.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

Yeah. It's just the the part I don't know like what parts of your brain do what, but I imagine I didn't get to that part of something. Get out of the neurologists out there. You guys are cool.

SPEAKER_03 42:26

Yeah, you guys help us uh thinkers out.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

Uh I think it's just like I think a better source of like our imaginative s imaginive skill sets would be to actually imagine.

SPEAKER_03 42:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Versus like worrying. Because we're like still like continuing an idea or continuing a vision and going into details, but it's all for the for the worst. What if I don't get a job when I get home? What if I'm stuck in New Jersey? What if but then the other tones of the questions, if you're imagining, is what if I'm being placed in New Jersey for a special reason? What if it's um what if it is the longest a longer term stay? Like what could happen in New Jersey instead of what if bad, what if possibility, and not cliche Christianity, stupid positivity. Let me just get this out. I know I'm not saying Christianity is stupid. Sometimes though. I just get a little bit tired of the 50% hobby lobby side. That's always gonna be 50% off, no matter what time of the year you come in. They're never not on sale. Everything is 50 to 70. Off.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

I don't know why. It's just cheap.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Because it's just positive all the time.

SPEAKER_03 44:04

It's just pre-home goods. That's all it is. Sorry, I have a couple Hobby Lobby looking signs around here. So it's not that I don't rock with them, but I do recognize they're goofy.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

My best shoddy. Her name's Karina. You guys will hear about her in a later episode. But she has a sign in her bathroom that's like something about gratitude. It's right across from her toilet.

SPEAKER_03 44:33

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And that's how we do it too. It doesn't matter who where listen, I'm a proud evangelical. And the only reason I'm proud is because I know we're stupid. I know Chick-fil-A is like our is like second chair for us. They have people dressing up like cows. Bro, the air quality was so crap. They still had people outside. Listen, Chick-fil-A, there's gonna be a doc about y'all in a couple. Give it five to ten. Netflix is coming out with a part series about y'all, and Christians are gonna cry. Netflix, listen, Chick-fil-A's got something behind them. Y'all don't put those people inside for nothing. I don't care if it's 14 degrees outside. Here's a space heater. Go on out there, greet them, and hit them with the my pleasure, whether you want to or not. That is the scariest thing in the world, Liz. Is the unhappy my pleasure? I know it's not your pleasure. You aren't looking at me. You hit me with the sad face, my pleasure. No, it's not. Yeah, just turn around and flip me the bird like you want to. It's okay. I know. Same bird you're gonna put on my sandwich. Yeah, you don't want it's that bird, the fried one. Flip me the fried bird while you do while you're at it. I know you don't want to be out here slinging chicken. It is Christmas Eve. You don't want to be out here.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

Oh man.

SPEAKER_03 45:50

Oh man. All right, Liz, continue your soapbox. Sorry, apparently I found mine. I was like, hey, Liz, here's a soapbox. Move.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

Um was my Was it about worrying, imagining, and but not imagining? Oh, oh, okay. Being curious about the future, but still grounded in real grounded in the Lord and grounded in reality.

SPEAKER_03 46:18

Okay, there's the difference between the po the unhelpful, over positive Christianity is the actual stuff that helps.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

I think people are I don't want to say this is too hot of a take, but sometimes words of encouragement or words of support or anything can feel super broad. And don't get me wrong, I love people telling me God won't leave you or forsake you, or God has good plans for you, or God's gonna make a lot of stuff out of this, like he's working all things together. I've been told these things in several seasons, and especially in this season, and I'm like, I just feel like people don't know what to say specifically to me because they don't want to say something too specific and then like get it wrong.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Or maybe I'm too afraid to hear something specific to like get my hopes up and pointed down. But back to like a healthy amount of curiosity versus worrying. Um like I want to be curious and be excited about what the Lord has for me, even though I am like petrified on the inside. And I don't I don't know about like what the Lord has for me in New Jersey. I don't know what the Lord has for me uh temporarily moving in with my family for a little bit. I don't know if what it means in terms of like starting over community, because I don't really have a lot of friends back home in New Jersey. Everyone like moved to their college towns afterwards, or honestly, I didn't have a lot of friends growing up. So it was just like it's really interesting to have like a clean slate in my hometown, and yet I'm a completely different person than who I was at 18, and yet I still have like the same DNA of questions and fears and insecurities. And still I don't want the majority of my mindset having thoughts that are like, what if the nothing changes to the all these negative thoughts? But what if you go back and something's different? What if you find a job you like temporarily and you're able to engage your passions? What if like those questions are okay to say? And I would rather be asking a list of those questions than what if negative, aka worrying? Because at least one feels a little bit hopeful.

SPEAKER_03 48:48

I agree. What has that transition been like for you?

SPEAKER_00 48:55

I don't know because I feel like I'm just discovering it right now on this couch cushion right here.

SPEAKER_03 49:02

Which it sounds like you started it a little bit, or is this just the first time you're like thinking about it to realize like, okay, this is how I want to continue, right? Maybe I've started it, but I didn't like solidify that this is what I'm doing, and I actively need to do it now.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

I mean, I don't think I think this is a healthy way to try to do the making meaning before you're making meaning, if that makes sense. Okay. Like you just said, just doing life. Cliche number three. Didding. Anyway.

SPEAKER_03 49:34

I don't mind uh the cliches, especially if we're gonna um unpack them. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

Uh I feel like I'm just trying to do the best that I can right now. Yeah. And again, the Lord will be faithful to show this whatever his sovereignty was doing behind the scenes. I mean, he doesn't he doesn't owe me it, but in his graciousness, he could, I don't know, lead me to meet like another great friend. Like you moving home. Like, if you didn't move home, we wouldn't be friends.

SPEAKER_03 50:05

This is true.

SPEAKER_00 50:06

Um, if you didn't move home, this podcast wouldn't happen.

SPEAKER_03 50:09

This is definitely true.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

Uh I was gonna make a joke about Miley, but I was like, she could have still had a cone wherever she was at.

SPEAKER_03 50:17

And she would have. My cat Miley is in a cone because she picked at an old injury, and so now she needs a cone. So now she's out there looking like she's picking up cable. Uh what she's probably doing is picking up heat. That thing is plastic. It probably is eating up nicely.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Smoke. You're such a good cat, Dad.

SPEAKER_03 50:39

Yo, I listen, Miley, I I tried to do this because now I understand some of God's discipline. Yo, Miley is just at the door every morning begging to go outside. Yo, yesterday our air quality was like four. Like it was I don't know what that, I don't know what the scale is, but it was crap. It was all smoggy and stinky. And Miley's just at the door, ah. Let me out. I'm like, Miley, Miley, you don't understand. The air is toxic. It's gonna kill you. Miley doesn't understand English. So she's like, listen, man, I don't care. Meow. Let me out, meow. Like, um, and so I just kind of tried to the best I could do was try and like give her brief moments out there, but it looks better quality out there today. It doesn't look as bad. Like yesterday, you could see it.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Oh, it's terrifying.

SPEAKER_03 51:39

That's just you can see the air. This is not breathable air. Go inside. I don't even think there were birds outside. I didn't I didn't pay attention. Maybe the government put them away. But I don't believe that, but I love that conspiracy. It's so funny to think that there is, first of all, some very unpaid worker in DC who's every every day on his building birds. Building, just letting them go. Just every day, turning on the pigeons and letting them go. At night he's gotta bring out owls. Like he's like part-time worker. After this, he has to go work at Starbucks. Like, my man is my man is loving life. Holy crap. Uh so I I love what you brought up because I've been thinking about imagination this whole time because I think I need to be more imaginative. I'm very science and observational. So, like for me, I get very um what is it? I don't know, my emotions are kind of like sometimes very controlled by how things are going observationally, and I don't live in that hope mentality very often.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 52:50

And so even though I am more creative maybe than I give myself credit for, and so I've been kind of wondering, like, okay, for someone who doesn't think that way normally, what are things that we can do to practice that? Like, is there anything we can do to engage that imaginative, that more creative side of our brain, and maybe I don't know, begin viewing the world a little bit more positively.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

I'm just singing the song from Wooly Wonka in the Char Charlie Chocolate Factory right now. That one, yeah. Yeah. Uh like if you want to view paradise, simply look around and view it. Anything you want to do it, want to change the world, there's nothing to it. I think a lot of it, if I'm thinking about it, has to do with breaking off limits that we've placed ourselves into. He's nodding, he's giving me a smile, he's like a yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:00

You're finding words that I need, but I don't have, so it's it's great.

SPEAKER_00 54:05

I think it's at one point when you're a kid, and unfortunately, because of the fall, and our parents are living their lives the first time, and they're coping the best they can, and they're raising us the best that they can, and they're teaching us the best that they can, and we get alongside kids and students and whatever, at some point we see like life is beautiful, right? But then life somehow like breaks people that either traps them in boxes, puts them in limits or something, whatever. And it's like I'm trying to remember when I was like when I was last a kid. Like, I feel like the last moment you feel like you're a kid is like when you don't have like any sense. And I think that's really hard because I'm like probably four or five, which is so sad. But if you look, and some of my friends who are in early education can just study this, like the brain does so much developing between zero and five. It's like massive. The amount of information do you take in, but it's not like you're taking it in to study and know it, and you're like, uh, great. Which I pride myself in that. I like knowing things because it makes me I like learning, I like teaching, I like information. It's cool. But I think my limit for myself for imagination would probably just be like capability, belief in myself. Um I think actually sometimes I think imagination and dreaming is foolish. So then I'll just not do it. Yikers.

SPEAKER_03 55:53

Go more on that.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

No.

SPEAKER_03 55:55

No, go more on that. Why is it foolish to you?

SPEAKER_00 55:59

I think it's foolish for me because I haven't seen it work out yet. And I think if I don't see this as my pr performative side and productive side, if I don't see a decent ROI of it in a decent span of time, I don't think it's worth it. Ouch. Yeah. I like that. So I like that recognition. In a sense, I'm supposed to convince myself, who once convinced myself that dreaming is worthless, then that it is now suddenly all the sudden is worthy and was always worthy. And somehow I have to dismantle this belief that dreaming is not worthy. And f not not not that I have to like figure out where that came from, but I have to dismantle that.

SPEAKER_03 56:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

So that I can go back to what I was supposed to do. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 57:05

So I'm gonna tell a little bit of a story about my return to Christianity. Um first I want to go to what you were saying about um people who have who just use very vague cliches and Bible verses. I think there's a couple issues with it, what? One, we don't really know scripture like that. And if you don't know scripture, you don't know the depth of scripture. And so what we do know is the Hobby Lobby posters.

SPEAKER_00 57:47

And I rock with Hobby Lobby, by the way, so I'm not trying to I'm tired of brushstroke thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 57:55

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 57:56

We have different issues.

SPEAKER_03 57:59

Um don't don't don't look at my bedroom art. Anyway, uh so I so so one, we don't know scripture, so we don't know the depth of it. The other issue is we don't know people. Not really. Not people that challenge our idea of reality. So we have a very simplistic view of life. And so when people come to us with something deeper than our simplistic view of life, then we don't really know what to do but hit them with scripture. And if we don't know scripture that deep, then that's even worse. Because now you don't know scripture all that deep and you don't know people all that deep. So when I was in college, I used to, because I can be somewhat hard on myself and pessimistic, I used to tell myself I walked away from Christianity because I didn't care. That is not true. I always thought I was gonna be a Christian. I considered myself a Christian the whole time. And I actually still stuck to a lot of very Christian principles. So I didn't seek anything sexual, I didn't get drunk, didn't smoke, didn't cuss. I was very much a loser around all my friends who were not Christian. Except some of the Catholics. Shout out to the Catholics. So but bec I think what happened with Christianity is that I was aboard with it. I don't think I understood I didn't understand God all too well, but the parts I did understand, I understood really well. So I just didn't really question the rest of it. And and the reason I can even speak to like some of the shallowness is because I think I am very much that person, or I was that person. I think I've changed a lot because of college and because of public school a little bit. Shout out to the public schoolers out there. Because I went from homeschool to public school to college, and now I'm meeting people that challenge my understanding of um of faith or of like people. Not faith, of people. And my parents were good because they didn't bring me home and affirm a vague understanding of people. No, they both came from upbringings that told them life is a lot more difficult and complex than classic middle class churchianity. I'm the one who grew up in middle class churchianity. And so they helped they help kind of break some of my very basic understanding of that, but you still know what you know growing up. And so if everybody around, if all if a lot of the other people who may be used to that kind of very classic churchianity, um, and I say churchianity more because some of it's based more on tradition than actual like tradition and like trying to be right in like always affirm the Ten Commandments and everything you do, as opposed to understand the complexity of humanity and like understand, like use that to understand seek God a little bit differently or understand God a little bit differently. No, we just go with what we know is right. And if there is any contradiction to what we know is right, there is usually a cliche that can tell us either why there's a that is wrong or why we should just kind of brush over it in a way. I just think sometimes we create very safe church culture in America. I get that. But as I'm going to high school and college, I think I'm bored with Christianity. I think it seems very simple, it seems very basic. It doesn't uh the most interesting thing I thought was the debate between or was like Ken Ham, like when Ken Ham like put Christian and science Christianity and science together, it was like, whoa. It was like that's sick. But um even that was a very limited view of uh even a very limited view of nature and science. It was just something that affirmed what the Bible said in a very simplistic way, which is the earth was made in seven days. And if you take a basic page-level understanding of it, then great. Ken Ham, his theology affirms that. And now that's cool. Now Christianity and science mix. But if you don't have people teaching you about original languages, or you don't have people who are just kind of expanding your mind, then it stays in that very basic: well, what does the page say? It's all in English, it's plain English. You can under, you can read it, you can understand it. No, it's not that simple. So I'm bored of it, I'm not as engaged with it. So when I'm meeting the people, I'm meeting them very genuinely. Like these are people that are like, oh, they're my friends, and I know that they may, my theology may technically be in sin, but I don't really, you know. I like them. So now I have to carry the balance of like, I like these people. I know their their lives aren't always super holy, but they're also not bad people. Like, they're not as scary as like this whole the world concept that, you know, I would have normally put them in. So fast forward to I move out to my own apartment. My f I now meet Christian friends again because I go to church. I go to church because I don't have any friends. My childhood says, My friends and my community are in the church. I also always wanted to be a Christian that cared. So I go to church, and now I meet friends, but friends who are able to connect the Bible to more than the Bible. They're able to connect it to history, observable history, by historians, not just Christians. I'm like, oh shoot, okay. I know it like affirms stuff like that. And there's other perspectives of science, of like the Genesis story, or like how things happened. The earth could be made in seven days or not. Oh shoot. Now there's questions. So now my faith is getting bigger. Or my not my faith, my understanding of where God and where Christianity fit into the world is getting bigger. And now I'm applying that to facts, I'm applying that to people. And the more I'm the more interested I am in the world, the more curious I'm becoming, and the less that my limits created by my boxed-in religion, whether it was created by the churches I was going to or my mind or both, because it probably is a bit of both.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:11

Now I'm more now I'm seeking more. Because I already believe in God. Now I want to understand him more. And now I want to and and now as I'm understanding more, things are I uh I am unlocking aspects of Christianity that I didn't understand before. Certain songs start making more sense, certain verses start making more sense. This is the knowledge side. So now fast forward to Williamsburg. I meet y'all. The reason I go to their church originally is because. Because they pray to God like he is right in the room. I'm like, huh? God's not in the room. He's in heaven. I mean he is, but he's not. You know what I'm saying? And so now that takes a different level of expanding my mind. That takes that goes from because before I'm I'm expanding my mind through knowledge. And so when but there's an element of faith where knowledge is limited. But for me, when I was going back into a faith, expanding my mind meant learning more. So I'm learning, I'm learning, I'm trying to learn more, I'm trying to learn more. There must be more to understand. It wasn't until I got to Williamsburg and started meeting people that actually started engaging with God as though he's real and almost as though he's a person. He's not, but almost as though he is. Because to me, interpretive means imaginary. And I don't like interpretive being imaginary. I don't like the idea that God could be considered fake. I don't like the idea that my brain could be making him up.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:39

And so the more abstract stuff becomes, the more I'm like, all right. These aren't the laws of nature here. These aren't the laws of historians. These aren't the laws of facts and sci and other things. These aren't even like some of this stuff, like some of the stuff we were asking him in our Bible study isn't even the law of even isn't even anything specifically written in the Bible.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:05

Yeah, but it's following the principle of ask and you will receive.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:10

Knock and it will be open to you, uh, seek and you will find.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:13

Yeah. And it takes some level of looking beyond what is right now to be able to say, yeah, but he could do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:23

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:23

He could.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:26

And I and I know some of the principles. I know that he wants good things for his kids. I know that he wants that he is doing everything for his glory and our good. And I also know he knows my heart better than I do. So if I ask, he could do it. But I also have to trust that he knows better.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:49

And he'll do it in the way that is best for me.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:53

Yeah. Me asking for a way out of this season, my idea was not moving back closer to home for like whoever for whom sorry, for however long, you know, and who knows how long.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:06

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:06

Money answered the prayer.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:08

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:09

He answered the prayer as soon as probably day one I moved here. I told everyone, I'm like, this is not going to be a long season. I don't want to be here a long time. And I always said, I don't know if I was stubborn enough or God truly let it happen because he answered my prayer or he let a stubborn child have what a stubborn child wants. But I'm like, he answered the prayer. I don't know what side of it is, though. If it's like I was being stubborn, I got what I wanted. Was what I wanted ultimately what he wanted for me, or was it him working out and answering a prayer I desperately wanted him to answer? I don't know. I won't know until later.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:52

So the word you brought up is putting yourself in boxes or putting barriers around it.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:03

Yeah, limited.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:04

And that's what I'm working on right now. I think is trying to break out of those boxes. I think trying to even discover the boxes. I don't really know how many boxes I've put God in in my mind because I am afraid to imagine.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:24

Why are you afraid to imagine?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:26

Same reason you are. Especially, I just said I'm disillusioned.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:31

Is it if you imagine more, you're afraid it's not gonna be real?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:39

When you s uh someone asked me recently, have has God ever done anything like really big in your life?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:47

Was I there for that?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:48

I don't know. It might have been at the Bible study we went to.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:52

Maybe.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:52

But it was like God do any has ever has God ever done like a big miracle in your life?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:58

I always say one, but that's a later story.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:01

Okay. My answer is no. He's never done anything so out of the ordinary that I'm like, this can only be God. And so I don't even have that to lean into. But because of that, is it possible that I have put God in a box of what he's able to do? Because even like you said, the dreaming aspect, the one dream I had, I just walked through the whole conservation thing uh in the beginning of the pod. It's not it's realizing it's worse than I thought it is. So maybe I need to look at the world for what it is and prepare for the potential disappointment, or set up a life that protects against disappointment by making sure I don't dream too big, or I don't what if too big, or if I or I don't like take a theology, right? That the you're gonna know the quote better. But essentially that the the heart is manipulative in a way, or that the desires of the heart are manipulative. The amount of times that I use that to not ask questions of God.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:22

Yeah, it's a fear-based theology to like lean lean into it too far. I feel like the narrow path that Jesus talks about is so in between this dichotomy of faith that we hold, or paradox I forget the words, they sound both great in my mind, but Christianity is a very fluid faith. Yes, there is right and wrong, but there's a lot of like you can't be too rigid, but you can't be too free. Like the narrow path is in the middle. And so when people say like the heart is deceitful above all things, yes. How is it that the heart that is deceitful above all things is also the thing that God has which like placed eternity in, or that out of it can also flow a fountain of life. And it's you know, flesh and spirit. We've talked about that several times. I feel like things that we want to do, we don't do, things that we don't want to do, we do. Because our it's all in Romans 7, if you want to read it, but like the concept of being so afraid to dream because you were told you have a manipulative heart. There is some truth and there is some whack fear in that at the same time as what I'm learning right now. And I don't know of what whack fear, and I'm not calling anyone out, I'm just like, I'm trying to figure out where I once when I first learned and then started to believe and act on the belief that my dreams are dangerous. And not like the good dangerous, like they're evil. And I'm just like, I'm not I don't want to discredit the Bible. I don't want to discredit what the Lord has spoken in his word. And I'm trying to wrap my brain around what is right, what is wrong, what is a good dream, what is an evil dream, what is from the deceitful side of my heart, what is from the God-given part of my heart. And I'm like, again, we go into worrying. Like that can just stunt time, and that's just like rude.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:35

Yeah. And exactly what you said is where we are the same. Even though you are leaving, and even though I am staying here, we are going through the same process of we are in a life right now where we have to believe in something more.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:54

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:56

Not even that j that we just do. Like on like in in life, yes, of course, we believe in God. But on earth we have to. And I do think sometimes that desperation is what draws us close sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:14

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:14

Is that realizing that, okay, the world is too far beyond what I understand and you understand it. So I have to I have to cling to you. Because you're the only person, you're the only being that understands any of what it is that I'm going through. And if I'm not trusting you, then what box is keeping me from doing that?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:43

And it's kind of like you said, right, before when we were talking about when I was talking about them our minds getting too deep, and your solution to that is just being like, just pray about it. Like that whole like the heart is deceitful, I don't want to bring my deceitful heart to you, God. Because if I if I feel like I know the deceit, I don't even need to deal with that. I I if I know that my if I'm playing tricks on myself or I'm just telling myself negativity or I'm looking too deep into it, I I know already because you told me.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:17

So let me do the right thing. Nah. Do the wrong thing. Ask him. Because I think what the hardest deceitful part, it's probably a good warning for us to not make all our choices off of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:32

But not to hide it from God. Because he knows where the line is between deceit and good.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:39

Yeah. He's all knowing.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:42

Yeah. And and my thing is if we don't do that, I find that I just live in anxiety. Because those questions don't go away.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:51

Correct.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:52

But they um but I don't ever get them out. I don't ever and I don't get to affirm that my heart and my mind are okay, even though I think this way. So I need God, I God, I need you to affirm those, to affirm me by allowing me to be me to the fullest degree, and know that you have control of the me that I don't have any I don't have any control over. And you love that doing it.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:34

My mom, in our sound check earlier, I talked about my mom. So you guys don't know my mom, but now you will. My mom's name is Linda. I'm not gonna go into anything else besides that part. Hey, Linda.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:46

Hey, girl. My backphone is dying. We need to we need to begin wrapping this up. Talk about Linda.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:54

I can end on this if you want. Okay. Um my mom has demonstrated how much I want my walk with the Lord to be like. Do you have a tissue or a napkin?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:07

I can go grab one.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:08

Okay. Um, I didn't realize how emotional this was gonna make me. Um, she came into town about five days ago, and she um the moment that she got into my apartment, I started some packing. We started reorganizing the boxes because I packed them wrong. Not wrong, bad. It was just like if I kept going at the rate, they would be ridiculously heavy and they would fall out like bottom-wise. Thanks. And and then at the end of it, we got like two boxes done and we sat on my couch. I don't have a couch anymore. I have it, it's just in a truck. And I'm sitting on like the crack between two cushions, and she's sitting on the full pillow by the armrest, and I just lean on her and it's so good. And I tell her, I'm like, I like your fleshness right now because like you on the phone is not fun. Like, you far away is not good. And I go, man, everything I'm doing with you, crying with you, talking with you, telling you when I'm having I have too much on my brain. Like, she's even letting me come do this podcast because I was getting overwhelmed. And she's like, do what you need to do. I'm here when you get back. Um, like there are some things we have to do later today and stuff, but she's working on my behalf right now to finish my apartment, like cleaning at least her bedroom and stuff. And I think it just made me realize like I want to cling on to God, how I ran so easily to cling on to my mom as soon as she got there. And it was such a good conversation we had. I was like, you're just so real. Like, I just wish God was real. And I know God is real, but I wish he was like flesh real. And she's like, the realness of God, honey, is such a hard topic to even unpack. And long story short, my mom and I don't really talk about our faith a lot, but I felt like in this last week, more than talk about it, like I feel like I experienced it. And everything I did with my mom is just a reflection of like, gosh, like I want that with the Lord. And and then to get like so confused with the Lord about like you were in the flesh, like Jesus came to earth, if we believed the Bible is true, right? Jesus came in the flesh, and somehow he says his Holy Spirit is greater than him. Not greater than him, but it's far better that he should go and send the helper than he should stay. And the very thing I have so many questions on and I'm confused about, and I thought I knew before, and then I thought I knew when I was here, and then I had no idea what I know now. That is the very thing that I'm supposed to cling on to right now when I have nothing. Um when I know nothing, it gives a lot more room for experience. Yes, I can check it because I'm smart. I can read a book and I can say this is cool, this is out of character, this, that, or whatever. But really like the presence and just wanting to cling on to him is what I think I really need right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:22

So I agree.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:24

That's what we all need.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:26

So Liz, thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:28

Thanks for inviting me.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:30

Thank you for doing this.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:31

Yeah. Fun fact, I said to Andrew when we were on our June break for the pod, I was like, I'd like to do one with you just at your apartment before like we do like another one before I head out. So I'm glad that we were able to make this happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:46

Me too. And it worked out. So, ladies and gentlemen, before my phone dies, uh, eternity is for the beautiful. Eternity is for the beautiful, eternity is for the timeless, eternity is for those who walk with God, and everyone's welcome. Until the next time, see y'all later.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:02

Bye.