The Heart of People Leadership with Katie Pfingsten

What does it really mean to lead people well?

In this episode of the HEART Leadership Podcast, Sara Valentine sits down with Katie Pfingsten, Vice President of People & Culture and Executive Director of the IAAPA Foundation, to talk about the kind of leadership that truly builds strong teams and cultures.

As two HR leaders, Sara and Katie explore the human side of leadership—what it looks like to lead with authenticity, humility, and appreciation for the people around you.

In this conversation, they discuss:

• Why listening is one of the most powerful leadership skills
• How authenticity builds trust within teams
• The importance of acknowledging contributions and saying thank you
• What it means to lead in the people profession
• How HR leaders can shape culture in meaningful ways

Katie shares thoughtful insights from her leadership journey and reminds us that leadership isn’t about being the loudest voice in the room—it’s about creating space for others to be heard and valued.

For anyone leading a team—or aspiring to lead one—this episode is a reminder that great leadership often begins with something simple: listening first.

Reach out to Katie via her LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katie-pfingsten-60448111a/

A HEARTfelt thank you for listening!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Leading with Heart, the podcast where leadership meets humanity. I'm your host, Sarah Valentine, and in each episode, we'll explore how to bring heart into the way we lead, live, and love. Heart stands for hear, empathize, acknowledge, respond, and think. These five actions may sound simple, but when practiced consistently, they can transform the way you show up as a leader in the workplace and beyond. So whether you're leading a team, leading a family, or simply leading yourself, you're in the right place. Let's dive in. Welcome back to the Heart Leadership Podcast. I'm Sarah Valentine, and today I'm so excited to introduce you to someone I deeply admire, Katie Finkston. Katie is a leader who demonstrates heart not just in title, but in action and the way she shows up, leads, listens, and supports others. Katie, welcome to the Heart Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Hi, Sarah. Thank you so much for having me. As you said, I'm Katie Finkston and I've spent over 20 years in hospitality with the last 15 focused on leadership and HR. Growing up, I was surrounded by leadership lessons. My dad was an HR and operations executive, and I watched him influence people's careers and strengthen business decisions through both strategy and empathy. So he taught me early on that credibility in HR comes from understanding operations first. So I started on the front lines as a restaurant hostess and worked my way up through food and beverage management before making the transition into HR. So today my philosophy is simple: invest in people, create a culture they're proud of, and the results will follow naturally. And I just realized I answered your question without you asking one.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

It's okay. It's okay. I actually love that because the more uh organic things come out and when we do these recordings is always the best. Um, I love that Katie is kind of proving me wrong in my HR career. I was trained that people and operations don't flip to HR. And Katie taught me otherwise. She was an operations person and she has successfully become an HR person and done it very well. Um, so I always um had that mindset. So it was always really good to see someone like you that pushed me to think about HR in a different way. And that's also opened me up in my current role to look at operations people to potentially be in the HR area. So that you've had that influence on my leadership.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, and I I appreciate that for sure. And, you know, I think that there's pros and cons both way, right? Whether somebody's been in operations or they're classically trained HR, I guess you call it. Um, but I often tell, especially operators, when they've asked me, you know, what do I need to do in order to be ready to move into that? And, you know, obviously being willing to take an entry-level role so they can learn is key. But I tell them all the time, especially if they're in restaurant operations or theme park operations or hotel ops, whatever within hospitality, if they're a leader, they're typically doing a lot of HR work every day because they're managing their team, they're the in-the-moment person listening to them, they're resolving issues quickly, and then they have this added pressure of dealing with guests, which we don't have um in a classic HR setting.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

So the one of the only perks in HR, we don't have to deal with the guest.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Exactly. We just support the people who do, and you know, and I tell my team all the time, you know, the employee is our guest, right? So we're we're we're servicing them um at that same service level. But yeah, I mean, I tell people all the time, I think that they underestimate how many skills they learn in the field as a leader before 100%.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

100%. So every leader has a moment or a season that has shaped them. I've shared mine when I interviewed with Cynthia Howell, who was my first boss. Was there ever a defining experience early in your career that I know you talked about your dad being in HR, but maybe there was something else that influenced the way you actually lead in HR today?

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Yeah, absolutely. So I've um, you know, in my career, I've I've had the great fortune of working for and under, and I'm truly not just saying this, incredible leaders, yourself included. Um, but I think definitely those early experiences when you have something happen at a pivotal time that you're not expecting are the ones that really matter. Someone had told me early on in my career, um, when I moved out of um operations and into, you know, working in an office setting, that you never forget the person who gives you your first shot. And I always thought of that more as career opportunity, right? The person who promotes you or the person who moves you into a role or has that belief in you that you can make that transition from ops into HR. But for me, it was actually the person who gave me the first shot to be myself and to embrace those superpowers. So I was fortunate and early in my HR career to have a person who I dotted line reported to who ended up becoming a mentor and is now still one of my closest friends. Um, her name is Amy Agamez. And I've told you about her before.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

I still think the infamous Amy I haven't met yet, but one day you are listening. Hey, you could be on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Yes, you two. I I seriously, like I said, I think you two will meet and I'll I'll be cut out of the equation. Um but she is just she's incredible. We sat down in our first one-on-one, and I think I at the time I, you know, I was young, I was a young mom, lots of pressure on me. Um, I want to learn, I want to grow. I'm in grad school. And I think I had a bit of corporate imposter syndrome where there was a bit of what am I doing here? Am I but am I acting the way I should be acting? Am I being as professional as possible? Am I being careful with my words? And I sat down in my first one-on-one with her, and we just quickly built trust and opened up so I was able to be open with her about my personal life and my career goals and challenges. I talked to her about my communication style. But what stood out to me the most with her being 10 years ahead of me in her career was that she shared her own story too and got vulnerable with me, both personally and professionally. And so she showed me leadership doesn't mean you're shedding who you are, it's leveraging your strengths and using authenticity. So I learned from her that empathy, transparency, and connection aren't really liabilities, which I in a way felt like they were, but they're powerful. And when you pair that with accountability and consistency, it can really be a be powerful. And so, you know, watching her lead grounded in her values and in her style and being open and authentic with people really still shapes the way I lead today and the way I interact with everybody.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Yes. That's awesome that you had her to do that for you. I had Cynthia to do that for me. That vulnerability and um the trust and opening up is really, really important. And a lot of times leaders can go into situations thinking that vulnerability and empathy are weak, and they make you a weak leader, or they're soft. They're not, they actually do the exact opposite because when you're able to open up and be vulnerable and build that trust, you can get more performance out of someone, quite frankly, and engagement and productivity, which is what we want. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

I I completely agree. And I mean, and I think I've I you know, I and I tell people this all the time: your greatest opportunity will always be if you overuse your greatest strength, right? Because it needs to be leveraged in the appropriate timing and moment, and you can't always be on, right? But for me, being open and authentic and being able to shed those lines very quickly with people helps me be more effective in my job. But I also recognize that it can sometimes come across as potentially loose in style, not as traditionally polished. So I really try to be mindful of that because you certainly also don't want to be underestimated and have it be the first time somebody's going through a crisis where they say, wow, she's really good at her job. Um, and you know, I think that being mindful of that is important as well. But, you know, through frankly, through Amy teaching me about her own struggles and, you know, learning how to hone her own superpowers, that helped me a lot.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Yeah. Um, I love that you said about what you said about being polished. Um, I am someone who does not thrive on one-on-ones. I have to force myself to do them as a leader because uh for me, one-on-ones um don't create a safe space because of my former leaders that I've had that weren't always like Cynthia, right? So when we have the one-on-one and you have to lean into that vulnerability and create that trust, I'm not always polished when I do that. And I don't think I'm polished at all. I think I'm just Sarah. And the the older I get in my career, the more I'm just okay with that. Um I love people who are super polished because I'm like, oh, that's who I want to be when I grow up.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

But yeah, I am not one that's polished. It's like you're having tea with the queen or something like that, you know. Like you feel very but but at the same time, I think with the way that I am as a person, it's just exhausting to try to be someone um that I'm not. Um, and I think that, you know, definitely at home there there's a little bit more looseness, right, when I'm around my husband. Of course, there's stuff in a different yeah, but you feel the freedom to be yourself. Yes, but I but I feel like through my career and through working for and under the right people, I've been able to not have to essentially I think pretend to be someone I'm not when I'm at the end of the year. That imposter syndrome, right? Yeah, you don't want you don't want to feel that way. And I mean, and it really just and I think it's not always the fault, right, of an organization or a specific leader. I think we do that to ourselves where we think we need to be a certain way. And then when you come to the realization that who you are is pretty great, and that's why you're in the position you're in, it's so much easier, but it does take time to get there, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:10

It takes time. Um, and as we're both, you know, women in our roles, and where we've been blessed enough to be at the VP level, remembering that when we're coaching our young ladies under us, I have to constantly remind myself of that. Um, but I think that vulnerability leads into empathy, which is a key leadership skill. Um, but I often get asked the question from operations leaders in particular how do you balance the empathy with accountability? Yeah. Because I think sometimes they think it's a no-win situation. But what what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Yeah, I mean, I think empathy doesn't mean that you're lowering expectations, right? It means that you're understanding someone's perspective while you're holding them accountable. And you can validate feelings and offer support and still drive performance. There's one doesn't sacrifice the other. And I think it's extremely important. And I think some of that's early leadership lessons, right? Where you know there's a lot of cautious nature in it and also wanting to be really nice, which empathy and being nice are also not the same thing. You have to listen. And for me, one of the most important questions, and this plays into so much of leadership, is especially in HR, the most important question we can ask someone is help me understand why. And really taking the time to understand. And that goes for if they're upset about something, if they're happy about something, if they're questioning a policy, if they violated a policy, because you can say, help me understand why why you felt it was okay to do this. And it's important that we understand that because then we can help coach them and also make sure that the policies in place make sense, right? And I think that some of that is empathy being exercised, but also in a constructive and professional way. And I think some people don't always see them as the same. And you you definitely I think some people mistake it for being overly accommodating.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Um, but yes, they do, yes, they do. 100%. So um I've had leaders tell me that being empathetic uh has actually uh created some consequences for them that they didn't didn't know how to deal with. Um, for example, they did step out on the ledge with that employee, and that employee didn't perform, so they essentially let them down. So coaching that that leader to get back up there and be empathetic consistently is I think difficult to do, um, continuously, particularly in HR, because they almost leaders are like, haha, I told you it wouldn't work out. Well, hold on, that's one, that's one example. But you have to continuously go back out and and and continuously be empathetic, but still holding them accountable, which I think a lot of leaders think you can't have one without the other. They can't coexist, but they can 100%. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

And they're actually very effective when they are co um paired together.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Yeah. So this next one that we talk about in heart is the appreciate and acknowledge or and or apologize. Katie, you I remember working with you at SeaWorld. This was a natural strength for you. Appreciating other people at work. Um, that engagement piece was always just a part of you. In fact, you made it seem so effortless. And for me, this is where I struggle. I struggle with uh not saying thank you or if any time off, oh I think the appreciation, the recognition piece, you were just so naturally good at it. Um what role does that play in your leadership style today? Do you do I'm assuming you still continue to do these incredible things? But um what what is it like for you today with your team?

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Yeah, absolutely. So I think overall in HR, right, we're we're good at creating recognition programs and having those structured engagement activities. But I think the organic moments with your team matter the most. And truly, I think a lot of it came through me being in operations because when you're in a fast-paced environment, you need to be able to effectively encourage people and reinforce positive behavior at a quick pace and also correct things that are happening. So I think being able to quickly say thank you so much, that was such a great job. It also helps with the ease of also saying, Hey, maybe next time let's do this. And I I think it just it it really does come naturally, I think, because of doing it in such a fast-paced environment that I think here when it's more of an office environment, it's pretty easy to do. But um, I think please and thank you is some of the most basic manners that we can use, especially as leaders. Um, you know, it's I just I I love my team and they're amazing. It's very easy to do when you're surrounded by people.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

It's very evident when they follow you. That's always the biggest compliment a leader can receive is when the team says, Where are you going? You're leaving. Oh no, I'm coming with you on your team.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Yeah, hey, hey, I've applied there and you're like, oh, okay. Um, you know, it definitely it definitely lets you know that you're doing something right a hundred percent. So um, and you want the best for the team and to see somebody continue to grow and you know do great is extremely important.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Um for the apologize, have you ever had to apologize as a leader? And yeah, you in that moment, you don't have to tell us what it was for, but what what did it teach you?

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're you're gonna read between the lines and and and know what I'm talking about with this one. Um I well, I think the willingness to apologize is one of the clearest signs of professional maturity and leadership. You have you have to be able to do it to be effective. Um, and it's a sign of respect, right? But I I remember a time when I was working somewhere where I was in a period of rapid change and we were needing to make decisions very quickly, whether that's hiring decisions or um you know, answering emails, making decisions, getting things built, being as responsive as possible, getting systems transitioned, just so many different things happening. And I was moving very quickly through everything. And I had a team reporting to me, but in trying to be efficient, because I that was the intent, right, was to be efficient and get things done. Uh, I didn't involve my team enough. And uh even with the attempt being speed, the team felt overlooked and frustrated, and they missed opportunities to contribute as we were building something up. And one of my direct reports uh ended up giving me honest feedback when I had a moment of, can you believe this person thinks I'm not I I I'm not including you enough or trusting you? And they said, that is how I feel right now. And it was eye-opening to me because I took a step back and acknowledged I had fallen short. And I apologized to that individual and to the team and said, you know, I regardless of intent, it wasn't okay. And I want to let you guys know I don't lead this way. I'm I'm not a micromanager, I don't keep you guys out of important decisions. And it didn't diminish my authority at all. It actually built trust within that team and it modeled accountability as well to them, right? To say, hey, I can recognize when I've done something, and it strengthens the team morale, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Yes, and it did. Um apologizing, I feel from the people I learned from, not like Cynthia or Chris Andrews, but in other leaders outside of HR, I didn't see that happen a lot when I was growing in my career. Um, but I always wanted it to happen. So I really try if I screw up to tell people around me, man, I screwed that up. I'm so sorry. Uh I think it goes a long way because number one, it makes you vulnerable to your people. It makes your people realize, oh yeah, they're not perfect either. Oh, they're a human being just like me. And it creates a sense of uh safe space for if they make a mistake, you will help them fail forward and not backwards. And I think that's really important. Um, I saw you do that as a leader, and I and it was very impactful for your team.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know, it's it it plays into the same area as also being willing to say when you're wrong, because that you're not necessarily sorry if you're wrong, but you can say, hey, I made the wrong decision in this. Um, and I think being willing to do that goes a long way, and I I agree with you. I believe I made the wrong call. And even if it was something that had nothing to do with me, explaining what happened so that I could also help avoid some of those pitfalls is extremely important.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Yeah. So respond, you know, we've all been in that situation where you send out a question or or you send out someone to find an answer and we get nothing. It's silence, right? The line goes dead. Um I've learned as a leader, silence is response, even if it's not intentional. Um, how do you ensure that you're following through when someone brings something up important with you when they've been vulnerable? How how do you make sure silence doesn't happen?

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're exactly right with silence sends a message, and it's typically not a good one, um, unless you're actively listening to somebody, obviously. Um, but I try to respond quickly and set expectations on next steps as quickly as possible. And ultimately through anything, right? The debrief and the loop back is going to be the most important because that helps somebody have some sense of resolution, even if it's an answer they don't like. Um, that you need to be able to have that conversation. But I I think especially if it's via email and if it's a concern that you have to dig into, regardless of how big or small it is, acknowledging the message and saying, Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Please give me some time to work through this. I'll try to follow up with you by Friday. If you have any, you know, questions in the meantime, please feel free to reach out to me. Just so whoever sent it to you knows that you've seen it and you need a minute to look through it. Or even better, you know, I always say it's better to have a live conversation because somebody can write you a novel, but you likely are going to have questions about some of the things. So I think to say, hey, I'd love to set up time to talk to you about this and better understand what's going on, that also is a signal, right, that you're really taking the time to listen and you're not being silent about it because you're acknowledging it. But I think the debrief and the loop back is always super important, even if it's somebody's brought a concern to your attention and you can't share with them what action was taken on it, right? Because it's a confidential closeout, it's still important to say, Hey, I want to let you know we've looked into your concerns that we have determined appropriate action. If anything additional happens in the future, please come to me. And that way, too, if they're like, Well, what was the resolution? You say, Well, unfortunately, I can't share that with you. Or if it's they question the policy, and guess what? The policy is not changing, being able to have that conversation and talk through the why. Um, but I also try to set that expectation up early. If it's something like that, where I say, Hey, just so you know, the answer may not be you get what you want. So please be prepared for that. So I think that that's important as well.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

That's very important because I think a lot of leaders, um, when an employee expresses concern or wants to know why or brings something up, leaders feel pressured to overpromise and underdeliver. So yeah, for me, when people come into my office, number one, I don't know if I can keep it all confidential, right? Legal. As HR, we have to tell people that. Yeah. Um, two, if there's an outcome that impacts another employee, you may not get to know all of that, right? I and I always ask them their expectation. I don't overpromise something. And if I can't tell them something, I tell them I can't tell you that. Um, I think that's where a lot of leaders get tripped up, is because they either feel like they have to hold all the onto all the information and they can't explain the why, or they feel like they have to have a resolution, over promise, and then never get back, or it or something never comes to fruition. So I I think you're right that it's really important just to share what you what you have up front, and then that loop back is essential. Even if it's even if it's I don't have an answer yet, I'm waiting for the answer still. I think that's really important, and it builds trust um between leadership and the employee level. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

I mean, and even in the life cycle of HR, silence in the recruiting process. If you're not engaging with somebody, they're clearly gonna think you're not interested. So making sure you're checking in with somebody or saying, hey, unfortunately, the hiring manager is traveling this week. I won't have a decision on next steps until the following week. It it's all part of these different pieces of HR that we we need to make sure we're mindful of. But I mean, I do think too, with and that we'll, you know, we'll close out on the silence as I'm totally not being silent right now. Um, but the I think the other thing too, right, is that sometimes not being able to share can come across as not being transparent. I think that's how people read into it. So I think being clear on to your point, if somebody says, My expectation is that I get to, you know, know everything that happens, we can say, hey, I totally understand why you would feel that way. I want to let you know that there is a limit to what I can share with you because just as you wouldn't want something shared about you, I I can't do that to someone else. And I think being able to at least help them understand will help actually eliminate some of those feelings of they're keeping secrets from me, they're not telling me everything.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

100%. The the transparency versus um maintaining appropriate confidentiality is always a hurdle for HR and I would imagine other leaders as well. So we come up we come up on the T, which is thank and gratitude. Um, I feel you as a leader are always grateful. I don't think I've ever seen you have a moment where you weren't grateful or thankful for someone. How do you manage to do that in your leadership day-to-day?

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I I'm grateful and thankful for every leader. And I think in HR we have the great fortune, right, of getting to work with leaders that are outside of our own scope and see their own styles and leverage some of those skills and transition them, which not everyone gets that opportunity, right, to interact so closely with um other peers and see it from a different perspective too, right? Because you're talking to their employees and you're you're you know doing employee engagement surveys and those kinds of things. So you have a bit of a depth of understanding. Um but I'm just grateful. I think, you know, I made the mention of somebody said you never forget who gives you your first shot. I've realized through my career I I continue to get first shots all the time. And whether that's a a promotion or a new opportunity or a conversation I never thought I would get to be a part of, or getting to promote someone else that day and get to elevate someone, these are all different ways that I feel elevated and I get joy and I get satisfaction. And I feel like there's so many leaders in my career, whether it's someone I've worked directly for or had a dotted line to or worked along the side that have allowed me to do that. So I I really do try to exercise and make sure I say thank you as often as possible. Um, and you know, say I appreciate you to my team and to my bosses, especially, because I mean, you know, I I I can be a little, I can be a lot sometimes energy. I and I need and I know that it's just a big personality is all. That's all no, I just my my grandmother used to say, you don't need to be everyone's cup of tea, you can be a strong cup of coffee, and it'll be fine. And so I think I love that you know, I've embraced that, but again, the awareness and being able to exercise it when appropriate is important, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:42

I I can completely relate to that. My current CEO, Caroline Schumacher, bless her, because I too, big personality. So I've been told, I don't necessarily agree with that, but I've been told, um, always has a way of bringing me back down. Let's talk it through. She's fantastic. Um, and she is someone who has really been teaching me, all even though I've only been under her for about six or seven months, about gratitude and what it really means to be grateful. To the point I've spent a lot of time reflecting on the moments that were probably so embarrassing for me to even admit out loud. But the times where I've screwed up with someone, I'm so grateful for them because they're teaching, they've taught me how to be better and to be thankful for them. Yeah. Um, and I never looked at it that way before, um, being under Caroline. So absolutely, I think leaders, especially leaders that we get to in HR um communicate with that are across the organization, right? We have ops leaders, IT, finance. There's a lot that all of them bring to the table that we learn from. And we're probably more fortunate than most leaders because we have that exposure.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Absolutely. I mean, we essentially get to kind of give ourselves our own 360 review on regular, you know, because you're having these conversations and these regular meetings and interactions, and you're able to say, Well, that's a really good, that's a good thing that they're doing on their team. I'm gonna, I'm gonna pick that up, or oh, I really like that, you know, that's what oh, that's what they did for their team for Christmas. That's such a good idea. Yes, you know, like little things like that.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

Little things like that go a long way. They really do. Um, so I have a moment of gratitude to share with everyone out there, and it's to Katie. Katie um and I worked during a time where I was having a very, very real personal struggle, and I had to take some time off to make sure I was okay. And Katie, um, you know, bless you because I was not in a good space, and you treated me with heart. You heard me, you were empathetic, you acknowledged what I was going going through, you responded. And at the time, I did not like the response, but it was what was best for Sarah, right? When I said stop working, that's right. Um, and I'm thankful for it, and I'm so grateful for that time because it taught me. I think it was God God was using my time to teach me what so many other people are facing in regards to you have to put your mental health first, not the job. You have to be someone that leads by example when you're facing that kind of thing. Um, and I'm so grateful that I had you at that time in my life. And you well, you were a great leader. And I was your leader and you were leading me. So it was truly, truly a wonderful thing you did for me and for my family.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

No, absolutely. And I mean, and I, you know, I think you taught me a lot about being really aware of your own limits, right? And also recognizing when you need a minute to breathe and when there's so much other stuff happening, right? I think people forget often that we're human beings outside of work and that we have other stressful things happening attention and need some quality time. And sometimes when that is yourself, you do need to take a step back. But I think working alongside you while you were going through that, and then you know, the next time that it came up with an employee, even if it's somebody not on my team, but a leader asking me for advice on somebody who needs to take a leave, really approaching it with a lens of better understanding of what they may be going through and being able to say, Hey, you really need to make sure you're encouraging them to disconnect. Keep in touch, but also respect their space because if somebody says I need to take a step back because I have X, Y, and Z going on, and I have to address that, and then I'll be back when I'm in a place where I can fully focus. 100% you want them to be able to do that. But um, you know, and also you, you know, you trusting me with the with the team at the time gave me an opportunity to work in a V VP capacity, which I had not done before. And then, you know, when you got an amazing new opportunity, it made it a natural transition.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

So I think God was God's hand was on all of that. Um, but I still when I give people advice, I I tell people, you know, Katie Finkston once told me, you can't pour from an empty cup. You can't pour from an empty cup, and that is so, so very true. Um, so I think being grateful for for people around you and leaders that really do understand that and put that first is is really essential. Before we close out this episode, are there any bloopers or lessons that you may have learned the hard way as a leader that you'd like to share that maybe someone out there will be listening? Um, I love this part of the podcast because it's I'm always sharing Sarah's bloopers because there are plenty of them. Um, I've had a couple, and you know, you can listen to the rest of the episodes to find out what those were. But Katie, do you have anything funny that you would just like to share? Just to end on a lighter note.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Oh gosh, there are so many and so many that I can't share.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

All HR professionals have the ones we can't share.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

I think, you know, and I think looking back on being early on in my career, and something I think that and when I say career, more so like at this level of working with more executives, right? So you have peer-to-peer relationships and sometimes people who are even a level up from you that you're working with and supporting. I think something to think about is uh making sure that if there's a performance issue, uh it you can't avoid it. And it only gets harder and it erodes trust. And I think if somebody brings something to you, you can't manage around the issue indefinitely, right? And I think if you're trying to encourage a senior leader to take care of an issue that's going on with their, you know, employee, and they're saying, Oh, I want to give them more time, or I want to do this. Avoiding the conversation is not going to make it any easier. So I think I wish I had felt more confident earlier on, you know, to say, like, hey, I understand, and you know, I can only make a recommendation, but here's what could end up happening if we don't do those things, right? And I I think finding that balance of being able to be a little bit more um it's not forceful, right? It's just influential and really trying to like help somebody see what could what could be the result of it. I think that's something I often wish that I had, you know, and it's not like anything really overly catastrophic happened.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

I just look back at that as a skill I really feel like I particularly in HR when we say something, it's biblical, and people feel like we are bossing them or ordering them to do things when to your point we want to influence good decisions and judgment and behavior. Um, that's really hard to do, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:33

And I think what most people do get satisfaction out of when you're trying to help them is if you are able to give them a specific story, right? To say, hey, let me tell you about something that happened to this leader, right? And not somebody they work with, right? We're not, we're not keeping, we're not sharing that's right, we're not gossiping, right? But I think to say, hey, in my career, I have seen an instance where something like this happened, and because the action wasn't taken in this fashion, this was something that fell out from it. And I think that those are sometimes the ways to help people see um see a little bit better. But oh gosh, I think about bloopers, and I all of the stories that come to my mind are more just you can't make the stuff up kind of things.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

And I feel I feel like all HR, we have those. We all have them. Um yeah, I think that but I think that's a good place to to end your segment because you know, influence and and coaching and recommendation is 90% of our our job, I feel. Um, and just being human in those moments, right? Being human, having that empathy, um, and just helping them work through the the problem one problem at a time in HR. Well, Katie, I'm so grateful for you and the way you lead, you know, you truly model heart. Um, I'm not just saying it because I I I'm the maker of the heart framework. I think you really do. You show up for people when they need you, you lead with heart. Um, and that's really important. And thank you for being a leader that models heart. Um, to our listeners, if there's something in this conversation that resonates with you, please share this episode with others. Um, I will have Katie's contact information in the heart episode if you want to reach out professionally. She's also on LinkedIn. She's very findable, if that's even a word.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

For the next there aren't many Katie Pingstons with a silent P out there.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

So that is true. Um, you can if you're following me, she's also on my list of followers. Um, she is fantastic. Uh, been in HR a long time. I've you've probably been HR HR your whole life with your dad.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

You've been in training your whole life. Oh, yeah. All of my punishment conversations for consequences were wrap-ups to employ engage um employee relations issues. You know, you'd say, understand why you did this. And you'd say, What do you think is an appropriate outcome?

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Eight-year-old Katie getting corrective action in a performance improvement plan.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

Correct. Correct. I worked my way off of many PIPs.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

That is fantastic. So the next time on the Heart podcast, we will be interviewing another fan favorite of mine, Dr. Mark Hurtling. He is a retired U.S. Army Lieutenant General known for his extensive military career and contributions to leadership and healthcare. He served as the commanding general of the U.S. Army Europe and the Seventh Army, commanding every organization from platoon to field army. After retiring from the Army, he became a senior vice president for Florida Hospital Organization and authored the book Growing Physician Leaders. He has also served on the President's Council of Fitness, Sports, and Nutrition and is an adjunct professor at the Crummer School of Business at Rollins College. I'm looking forward to sitting down with him, but until next time, lead with heart, and the rest will follow. Thank you so much for listening. I'm deeply grateful. My hope is that you leave inspired to lead with compassion, strength, and heart in your work, family, and faith. If today's episode encouraged you, share it with someone who could use a little heart in their day. And be sure to follow or subscribe wherever you listen. Until next time, lead with heart, and the rest will follow.