Leadership, Legacy, and Letters from War with Dr. Mark Hertling

What does leadership look like when the stakes are life and death?

In this powerful episode of the HEART Leadership Podcast, Sara Valentine speaks with Dr. Mark Hertling, retired U.S. Army Lieutenant General, professor of leadership, and author of If I Don’t Return.

Dr. Hertling shares the deeply personal story behind his book—letters he wrote to his sons while deployed in war. These letters were never intended for publication. They were written in uncertainty, responsibility, and love.

In this conversation, Sara and Dr. Hertling explore:

• Leadership under extreme uncertainty

• The power of vulnerability in leadership

• Faith, character, and responsibility in leadership

• The values leaders must pass to the next generation

Dr. Hertling’s reflections remind us that leadership is not about rank or title—it’s about character, service, and the people we influence along the way.

This episode is a powerful reminder that the greatest leaders don’t just lead organizations—they shape lives.

You can reach out to Dr. Hertling on his LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-hertling-dba-57987066/

A HEARTfelt thank you for listening!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Leading with Heart, the podcast where leadership meets humanity. I'm your host, Sarah Valentine, and in each episode, we'll explore how to bring heart into the way we lead, live, and love. Heart stands for hear, empathize, acknowledge, respond, and think. These five actions may sound simple, but when practiced consistently, they can transform the way you show up as a leader in the workplace and beyond. So whether you're leading a team, leading a family, or simply leading yourself, you're in the right place. Let's dive in. Welcome to the Heart Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Valentine. Today's episode is incredibly meaningful to me. I'm joined by my professor from the Crummer Rollins Executive MBA program, retired Lieutenant General Dr. Mark Hurt Dr. Mark Hurtling, a transformational and servant leader whose impact spans the battlefield, the boardroom, and the classroom. Dr. Hurtling recently released a deeply personal book titled If I Don't Return, a collection of letters he wrote to his sons during a time of war. These letters weren't written for publication. They were written in an uncertainty and responsibility and love. And I can't think of a more powerful way to talk about leadership than through legacy, vulnerability, and the values we choose to pass on. On this podcast, we talk about the heart framework of leadership. Hear, empathize, acknowledge, respond, and think. As I read and read your book, I kept seeing those principles show up in your letters, not just as a military leader, but as a father, thinking deeply about the kind of men you hoped your sons would become. Dr. Hurtling, thank you so much for being on the Heart podcast.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

Sarah, it is an honor and a pleasure to be with you on this podcast. Thank you so much for inviting me. And it's a great subject we're going to talk about. I really appreciate your model and what you're trying to do to help other people connect and lead with love.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

So your book, If I don't return, is based on the letters you wrote to your sons while deployed. That title alone carries a lot of weight. What prompted you to begin writing those letters?

SPEAKER_03 2:33

Well, this is going to seem to be a strange story, but back in 1990, when I was a young major, uh, I was in a cavalry squadron, which means we were doing reconnaissance for a division. So it's a unit of about 800 or 900 soldiers who do reconnaissance and information gathering, intelligence gathering for a unit of 20,000. Uh, and we are always out front in the cavalry. So uh one night uh we were told to listen to AFN uh network. We were in German living in Germany, and in that announcement in November of 1990, we were told that we would be deploying to um Saudi Arabia and in order to provide a backstop for what was happening with Iraq's invasion of Kuwait at the time. Uh it was a surprise to everyone. Uh, it put us all through uh cheetah flips, as we like to call it, uh, where we didn't know what was going to happen. And uh the next day when we went in, we got an intelligence briefing. We were told at that intelligence briefing that the cavalry unit would probably suffer 50% casualties uh because of the mission and the fact that we were going against Saddam Hussein's army that had just finished an eight-year war with Iran and and uh they had used chemical weapons against their own citizens, the Kurds, in a place called Halabjah and they were the fourth largest army in the world at the time. Uh so given that prediction that that we had a chance of 50% casualties in our unit, I started thinking about uh given that coin flip, uh, what would happen if I didn't come home? Who who would teach our two young sons at the time how to be men, how to grow into a uh society? And they were seven and ten at the time. So when I when I deployed, what I started to do uh prior to the war beginning, prior to combat beginning, we were in the desert for about a month and a half, uh, waiting for the war to start and uh doing the different things that you have to do as an army unit. I just started picking random subjects on a daily basis and writing a one-page uh journal entry to the two sons that if if I weren't to return, someone could give that book to them. Um and it had all kinds of bizarre subjects, uh, anywhere from you know, thoughts on friendship and culture and marriage and you know, the kind of things that a seven and ten-year-old probably aren't thinking about, but that someday they would. Uh, and that's how this all started. So I had a very big journal, uh a book that uh was a green army notebook that I was writing every day. And when I returned home, the the two boys were only a year older when I got back home. And they didn't want to read a philosophical uh bunch of journal entries. So I threw it in a footlocker uh where it stayed for about the next 30 years until our youngest son asked my wife, Sue, um, if she if he could see the journal, unbeknownst to me. And when he pulled it out, what I didn't know is he was going to type up the journal entries and present it to me. Now that this younger son is very interested in history of families and genealogy and stuff. So when he gave it to me on Christmas Day in 2024, it was a surprise. First of all, he had typed it up, put it in a box, gave it to me, put some pictures in it. And he said, Dad, my brother and I realized what you were trying to do back then. Uh, you were you were preparing us if you didn't come home with this book. And he said, But now you have five grandsons and two granddaughters. Uh now we've got to continue to pass on that legacy to them. So why don't you write some more in what your life has been like from 1991 until nine until 2025? So I started writing uh after he gave me the book. And what was great about it, Sarah, and I'm I'm giving you a very long introduction, what was great about it was there was an automatic outline of what I wanted to write, because what I decided to do was take each subject that I had written about to include the combat time, because I had seen two more deployments to Iraq, right, and just talk about what I thought 35 years later on those same subjects and how my thought process had changed. Um and that's how the book originated and what it consists of now. So it's each each section has a journal entry that's about a page.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

And then the reflections piece.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

And then the reflection, which are several pages, well, can be several pages long or very short too.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Yeah. Yes. I have um so far, I think the friendship and the faith are my two favorites of the journal entries.

SPEAKER_03 7:48

So you're into it.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

I am into it, yes. Okay, yeah. Um, as I was reading your book, it struck me um the humanity that that shines through the letters and then the reflections, they they show strength. Um but it also show they also show humility and care. Um, and that's that unfortunately is rare in leadership today. So it gives me the thought of how do you when I'm reading your book, it's very it comes across very clear that you feel vulnerable vulnerability is important in leadership.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

Yeah, well, I mean the the two traits you just named, humanity and care, or I'm sorry, sorry, humility and care, are probably two of the most important values in my book for leadership. Because, you know, no one really likes a well, I can't say that some people do, but I personally don't like a swaggering leader that doesn't take care of or care for their people, their families, and care for the job that they're doing. Uh so yeah, those those are pretty important traits, I think.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

Right. I I find um early in my career, vulnerability was a um something that was taboo. I didn't see a lot of leaders lean into that. I see it more today because it's becoming uh easier conversation with leaders. Um, but it's definitely present in the journal entries and definitely in the reflections uh so far as I'm reading your book. Um looking back, do you think these letters are a form of leadership themselves?

SPEAKER_03 9:37

Yeah, I certainly hope so. It's funny that you say that because um, you know, when when the manuscript was sent off to a publisher, I mean, I it it's it was a funny situation because one of uh a Crummer student, uh Bob Ronska, who you've met, Dr. Bob.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Yeah, maybe Bob.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

Maybe Bob. Uh I asked him, I said, you know, how was your publisher? Because he's published a couple books. And he's annoying great read. Yeah. Yeah, he said, you ought to talk to this guy, this guy, Andy Simmons Simons, who's the publisher and the owner of um uh ballast books. So I I sent the manuscript off to him and he was asking me, he said, Do you want help with the editing? Do you want, you know, do you want us to help you write the thing? I said, No, it's already written. You know, you can take a look at it and edit it, but I don't want the journal entries to change a bit because those were the originals. I said, you can edit some of the reflections if you think I I'm too wordy or I get off. And truthfully, they didn't edit a lot. I mean, there was some possibly some syntax errors and grammar errors and things like that that they're gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

And you say that in the book, spelling errors and all.

SPEAKER_03 10:47

Yeah, but but the thing that I had a conversation with Andy after the book was published and we got the first uh copies back, and we were sitting around talking about it, and he said, you know, he said, we mostly focus on books from from the military, all different kinds of military books. He says, and when you sent me yours, I thought, okay, it's gonna be a war book if I don't return. And he said, it's really not. He says, it's a it's a leadership book. He says, it's a it's how do you live your life book. He said, and then he gave me a very bizarre compliment. He said, you know, he said, you're kind of a stoic. He said, you're you're like Marcus Aurelius, who just kind of looks around and sees the things going on around him and comments on life. And he said, that's what makes this book pretty special. He says, yeah, there's a section on war in it, but most of the time you're just kind of reflecting and analyzing both the the good and the bad, the you know, the the successes and the foibles that occur in anybody's life.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 11:56

Uh and so I I took that as a big compliment.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yes, I particularly like the part about emotions. So I knew, I kind of knew you were an emotional guy, didn't realize how much until I read that part. Um, but I love that. Um, my whole career, I've been told I feel too much, I'm too emotional. So to hear you say, hey, it's important for people to see your emotions, but you're responsible of how you manage those emotions was very uh impactful for me as a female leader uh to hear that from a male leader that I look up to. Well, you I really, really liked that part.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

It's interesting because as a male leader, um, you know, I'll I'll cheer up at something. Uh, and my family, you know, always says, Oh, there's there's, you know, my my my wife will look at me and she kind of smiles and I know what she's thinking. And our kids understand that I'm gonna get emotional at things like graduations or you know, weddings, or you know, the happy events. And it's it's a happy kind of emotion. And people like to see uh when you're connecting. And and you know me, sir. I mean, we've we've been together now for almost a year with in the classroom, and you know I I laugh loud and I get touched by human uh uh things that human beings go through, and I'm passionate about what we're studying when when I teach the the courses to your class. And so, yeah, life is meant to be lived to the fullest, and you can only do that through exhibitions of emotion, I think. But what it what you were saying before is I think unfortunately, women sometimes get a bad rap, but I would tell you that men also do if they're emotional. You know, there are some that like, oh my gosh, here he goes again. So I've come to the conclusion of I don't care, you know, it's who I am, and it's the way I feel. So it's the empathy, it's the empathy part of your heart, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:05

That's right. That's right. Um, I love the book Lean In by Cheryl Sandberg. She is the CFO of Meta. Uh she talks about that a lot. And yeah, I I believe men also get the same response if they're overly emotional. Um, I try to tell people NHR, there's an H before the R on purpose because we're all human and to be human is to feel.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

Yep, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

And I just um hold on.

SPEAKER_03 14:40

I just read this book and it's uh We the Women by Nora Nora O'Di Donald. Have you heard of this?

SPEAKER_00 14:47

I have heard of it.

SPEAKER_03 14:48

And she talks a lot about um the emotion, especially in women who are shaping America. And it's it's a very good, first of all, it's a good leadership book, but it's also a good um book for women and men, I think, uh, because it's a great story of history, but also a great understanding of the sexes, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Well, I'll have to give it a read. I love to read. I try to read it.

SPEAKER_03 15:16

Read my book first, though. You gotta read my book.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

I'm gonna finish your book. I'm almost done. I just um time has been uh it's been a busy season.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

You know, uh I know the book isn't it's it's around the war time, but it's not a war book, it's a leadership book, but I gotta ask the question. So during war, I was a um uh military wife for nine years. I I did two deployments um with my husband at the time. And the deployments were full of uncertainty, you know, and in business and life, uncertainty shows up differently, uh, but the responsibility feels very similar at times. What does if I don't return teach us about leading when outcomes are unknown?

SPEAKER_03 16:06

Um yeah, in in either crisis or disaster. You know, crises when things are changing and craziness is going on, but also disaster when something traumatic happens to individuals or to groups. Um it it teaches us that the caring piece can can often be a burden. Uh, you know, when when we say when we hear the word caring, as you use in in your uh in your model, it's all about uh really taking care of folks. That's what it transcribes to be. But but caring can also be tough love, caring can be training, it it can be putting people in tough situations so they grow. It can be challenging them and holding them to a high standard. It all it's not always soft caring, you know, sometimes it's hard caring. And then you get into situations where disaster strikes, and you realize that it takes another special kind of caring, that you've got to be in the midst of things, that you have to really uh tune in to your understanding, your empathy of what someone's going through. Uh uh I I don't know, I don't think I ever told you this, but I I have mentioned this on other podcasts. I have a uh box on my desk. With the note cards, with the cards. Right. Did I show you those?

SPEAKER_00 17:44

No, I read it in your book.

SPEAKER_03 17:45

Okay, well, this is the make it matter.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

That's the make it matter, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

Yeah, and it's a it's a wooden cigar box. Uh three people have it, and it was a result of us losing soldiers in uh in combat. And when you when that happens, you have these memorial services. And our at the time, our division commander, Marty Dempsey, uh he wanted to comfort and provide care to those who had lost one of their buddies, one of their comrades. And he couldn't quite, you know, put his finger on how to how to address them after the memorial service. Um and finally he came up with the phrase, make it matter, make their sacrifice matter. You know, don't give up, continue to do the hard things, live their life because they can't live it for themselves. And that was the expression that we all came to realize was the epitome of caring if if we lose somebody that you carried on uh by making it matter for others. Now, I've as you've read in the book, there's 253 cards in this box, and they all kind of look like I don't want to spill them all on the ground, but they kind of look like that with individual pictures on them. And on and on the back, it lists their family members, uh, where they were born, um, how they died and where they died. And um every day I pick a couple of those out of that box and just think about how their death occurred, well, in 2007 or 2008, my last combat tour, when we first started doing it in 2003 and four, when we were together. So they would have been probably in their 40s uh at least. And what happened between the time they were 18 and now 40 years old? What could have been in their life? What jobs would they have had, what children would they have birthed, those kind of things. So that is what may is what drives the make it matter, uh, the importance of that in terms of caring for those who are no longer with us.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Right. I I do talk about caring and accountability in one of the episodes. It's either the A or the R, where accountability is an act of care. And a lot of times leaders shy away from that. Um I try to teach leaders to lean into it because accountability is an act of care.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Um for the women and men in your box of what make it matter, I feel the same about people that I have to terminate in a job because it's the hardest decision any leader has to make at in business. Um not in wartime, but in business. And I often think about did I do it right? Did I care for them in that moment? Because I was taught by Cynthia Howe, my mentor, to keep humanity in every interaction, no matter what that person did, and treat it like an act of care, even though you're separating them. Yeah, so I I appreciated that part of of the of the books as well.

SPEAKER_03 21:15

You know, one one of the things I'll I'll tell you, I this is not in the book, but I'll I'll share it with you since you talked about terminations. Uh I I had a a really good soldier who got in trouble, and he he did some things which required us to throw him out of the army uh with with a bad discharge. And it was interesting because I had a conversation with him, and the conversation centered around how he had disappointed so many people, and he was a young man. And and I said to him, I said, you have got to really take a look at yourself and take accountability for who you are and what you're doing to others. And of course, he was, I think he was 20 or 21 years old at the time, and I was an old colonel. Um, but you know, I tried to give the fatherly lesson and I didn't think it worked, to be honest with you. But lo and behold, about 15 years later, I get an email from this guy, and he said, Your tough love turned my life around. He said, I now have a great wife, I've got two kids, I've got a job that I love, I'm going to work every day. But he said, I think about how I disappointed every I how I disappointed people. I think about that every day, and I don't ever want to do that again. So, you know, it's it's good results can come of dismissals if you do it the right way and really take the human condition into account.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Yeah. I've had a few contact me back, um, want to apologize. I was like, that's not necessary at all. Um, so I I that that set with me um had impacts. Um one part of the book that really stands out to me is when you talk about faith and how it shaped your thinking and leadership. Um sometimes leaders really shy away from being vocal about their faith. I have um in the past, as HR, have to be I walk a careful line, but the older I get, the more I really uh own it and own own Christ. So when you were talking about faith in your book, I I loved how you honored other faiths, right? From other people, other walks of faith. I love that. Um, but I also like how you talk about it and how it helped you get clarity or or courage or and having that strong moral compass. Um does I think my question is, does your faith did it help you lead soldiers and and make those difficult decisions?

SPEAKER_03 24:19

Gosh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, relying on not only your values, which sometimes can be faith-based, you know, the respect for other people for the respect for that spark uh that's in other people that's that's only uh provided because of who we are, um and understanding that people believe different things, but for the most part, everybody wants to do the right thing according to how they're raised. Um, but also learning a lot from other religions that that sometimes you don't understand. Um you know, I I grew up, as I say in the book, I grew up a Roman Catholic and in a strict Catholic family.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Um and yes, I I I remember you saying you got your knuckles slapped.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

I was like, oh yeah, Catholic. Oh yeah, then the nuns, I I grew up, I I grew up in a uh in a well, we I went to a a Catholic grade school, an all-boys Catholic high school, and then I went off to West Point. So I was in an all-boys at the time, before the change in the Supreme Court, we would all go to our different chapels, but we would march to those chapel formations. So yeah, faith as a Catholic was always there, but it wasn't until I started uh mingling with first other soldiers and then other nations that I really had an interesting feel for what different faiths do. Um yeah, and and to answer to go back to your question of did it help uh in terms of leadership? Uh yeah, I think so. Um, because it also opens that door to how all people are different. And you have to understand where they're coming from and their faith. Um I was I I had something I wanted to say and I forgot what it was, but but it really one of the things is we're more similar than we're alike. And uh, or excuse me, we're more similar than we are not alike, as Maya Maya Angelou says. I I was I think this is in the book, but I I mentioned how uh uh a Jewish person once told me when we were discussing the Arab-Israeli crisis that they both greet themselves with the phrase uh shalom shalom or uh salam aleykum. So close in terms of the languages, which both mean peace. Uh and they both won it, you know, and almost using the same words to to get it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Yes. Yeah. That I've really enjoyed that section of the book for for sure. Because I do think a lot of leaders struggle to bring their their values and faith into leadership authentically. Um and I was blessed with a woman of faith as my first teacher in HR. So that helped ground me. And I I really don't think I would have gotten as far as I I have in my career without my faith. Um, because God opened doors that I I never could would have gotten to on my own. That's what I know.

SPEAKER_03 27:40

Um, yeah, it's it's interesting you say that because I think it's not only our own faith, but the fact that we realize others have their own faith too. I mean, even even atheists and agnostics, they believe in certain things. So you have to respect that belief and try and figure out more um what they're what what that means to them and how it creates their pathway in life.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yes. And I think it it's very possible for someone of a different faith or background to respect and honor one another. It happens to me all the time. All the time. Um, a member of my cohort at Crummer was afraid that I was going to be a little bit of a Bible thumper um as soon as I started talking about faith. And they have been pleasantly surprised, and now we enjoy each other so much. Uh, they're so funny. So I think as long as you respect and honor others, I think faith belongs in almost every conversation. But you know.

SPEAKER_03 28:49

Well, one of the things I'd tell you that I know this isn't in the book because I purposely shied away from this, but I once had to counsel a chaplain uh because I asked him to provide a prayer uh at a, you know, he he was speaking at a formation uh for something the army calls a change of command, where, and you know what that is, it's where two unit commanders change. And I said, Chaplain, I'd like you to to give the benediction. Uh and he did, but he started talking about the Christian faith. And I, you know, I chaplains are taught not to do that, they're taught to address all faiths. So I pulled him aside a little while later. I said, Hey chaplain, this is a prayer, not a church service. So let's let's be careful. And luckily it was during rehearsal. I said, You have Muslim soldiers, you have Jewish soldiers, and we had two Sikhs in our formation. I said, make sure this applies to everybody. And he goes, Yeah, sir, you're right. That's you're right. I I need to change it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

I I feel a little bit like a chaplain in my role because I have to honor everybody that comes through my door.

SPEAKER_03 30:00

All leaders do, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

So that's very relevant. So if someone reads your book, what's one leadership principle from all of your amazing letters that you hope they take away from your book?

SPEAKER_03 30:17

Uh the requirement for values, for personal values, that, and you know this because we've discussed it in class. Um, but in order to reinforce who you are and your character, and in order to make the right decisions consistently and with accountability, and to make your organ to have your organization understand what you believe in, I think it's it's important for every leader to determine what they live by, what they feel is important, what are their individual values? And those also have to match, as you know, the the organizational values of your the place where you work. So you have to come to grips with does what I believe personally intersect with what the organization stands for? And if it doesn't, I mean, you also know that that that connect that causes a great deal of disconnect. And it's probably not a good fit in an organization if your values don't match the corporation's values. So you probably need to find another job. But it's important for you to live your life according to a set of personal values that give you direction and an approach and help you assess your actions on a daily basis. Do you have integrity? Do you have humility? Are the things that you do respectful of others? I mean, I'm just naming a few, but do you have personal courage that helps you stand up and be counted when you're needed? Those are the kind of things that I think are most important in leadership because it gives your followers a foundation for who you are.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Well, I've wonderfully said, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

Well, you've heard it before.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Yeah, but it gets better every time, I promise.

SPEAKER_03 32:22

Yeah, it's not a it's not a trick question.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

So uh your book, If I don't return, uh I feel is more than a book. It really does read as a legacy of love, leadership, faith, and responsibility. I want to thank you for spending time with me on my podcast and talking about the book and leadership. I think um the book, if if you're a leader out there looking for something that gives you self-awareness, time to reflect on who you are, this is the book for sure. I I'm not quite finished, but it's leaving me thinking about me and and how I uh lead every day at Give Kids the World, which is an amazing place. Um and what I bring to others. So, and I've already spent time with you and I'm still reflecting. So I really, really encourage um those to my listeners that haven't read it, please go read it. It is an it you're it's worth your time. Um so I I thank you for your time, Dr. Hurtling, and for your service to our country and your continued service to the next generation of leaders at Cromer. It's truly uh been an honor to know you.

SPEAKER_03 33:41

Well, Sarah, I think you're on to something with this heart model, because uh after hearing about it, I think all the things that I try and describe in the book fit right into that heart and and it will give others a direction on how to lead their life and lead others as well. So thank you for that. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

Well, you're welcome. Thank you so much. And for all the others listening, until next time, lead with heart and the rest will follow. Thank you so much for listening. I'm deeply grateful. My hope is that you leave inspired to lead with compassion, strength, and heart in your work, family, and faith. If today's episode encouraged you, share it with someone who could use a little heart in their day. And be sure to follow or subscribe wherever you listen. Until next time, lead with heart and the rest will follow.