Sunday Recap: Revelation 15-16

This episode is a recap of this past week's Sunday morning gathering where we discuss the sermon text, our singing, and the gathering as a whole. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Welcome to this week's episode of Fields Notes, where we take a deeper dive into sermon text, discuss matters of life and faith, and enjoy conversations around the table with fellow friends from the Fields. Well, Fields Notes listeners, welcome back to a new episode of Fields Notes. We are back to full strength on our Fields Podcast team.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Welcome back, Jeff. Thank you. Glad to make this podcast longer.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

We are glad to have you. I apologize for my comments about you in the previous episodes. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

We were just talking and Joe just got hired back onto staff after a long, long conversation the past week. Not at all. I loved it. I laughed very heartily as I listened.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Well, it was it was fun to record without you, but Jeff, we're so glad to have you back today. Um, if you're looking at our the title of this, we're talking about our most recent Sunday morning gathering. So that was from April 19th, um, just a few days ago here now. And we do these because we love our Sunday morning gatherings. We want to soak as much as we can out of them. We think it's helpful that we even consider um aspects that we do of the gathering throughout the week. And so that's probably why we do these. And it's an encouragement to us. We hope it's an encouragement to you guys as we listen. So maybe just uh thoughts from us from uh Jeff and Braden, maybe something that stood out to you guys from our gathering this past Sunday.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Yeah, I I uh I love whenever we sing How Great Is the Greatness of God. I thought that that was a great song, and even good to just start thinking about one of the things we do we do like to do, even part of the call to worship is often God calls us into worship and then we respond, thinking, praising God for who he is, thinking about his greatness. I just loved our singing of that song this Sunday. Was thankful for that, thankful to fix our eyes on God immediately as we began.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Great song. It's a great, it's a great song on uh that highlights the fact that our God is triune too, which I I really love. I feel like a lot of songs we sing, um more and more songs are being written to reflect that. And I think that's really encouraging. You know, I like something we did after the gathering. I don't know if it's okay to bring that up, but we did it, we did an open house for the first time uh where we had some kind of new people to uh the church that got to come over here to our garage office and have lunch together and talk a little bit about who we are as a church and get to know them. That's just really sweet. We got some really good questions and um really thankful to be able to do that. And that was the first time we've done that. And um, yeah, that was a huge encouragement to me as well.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Yep, that was sweet. Uh a lot of parts I loved about Sunday morning. I always love when we sing There is a Fountain. I have always loved that song and um such an encouragement to me. I love the fifth verse of that song, especially. So um we I think when we tie it with communion, I think it's it's awesome. So a lot of sweet parts about Sunday morning. One thing in particular I wanted to bring up, it's on our notes page here. We did something that we don't always do, and I think people who come to our church might think, huh, that's like interesting. But sometimes we recite creeds, and specifically this Sunday we recited the Apostles' Creed. So maybe just briefly, what is the Apostles' Creed? Why do we recite it sometimes on Sunday mornings? Yeah, some thoughts of that might be helpful to people listening.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Yeah. Uh the Apostles' Creed is probably, at least what we know, the earliest creed that we have in church history. That a creed is simply a confession of truth uh from scripture that the church has believed. And the Apostles' Creed really is one of the foundational ones that it's really hard to find a Christian who cannot recite. Well, you really shouldn't be able to find a Christian who can't recite the Apostles' Creed and affirm all that the Apostles' Creed teaches. And really, as we were just talking about with the how great is the greatness of God, it's a creed that highlights that God is triune and who the Father is, who the Son is, who the Spirit is, and uh what we believe the Father, Son, and Spirit have done for us and for our salvation. And it's just a great way to root our gathering, uh, be aware of the fact that we gather uh in light of all of those who have come before us. Um and so the spirit has been working in the church for thousands of years, and we want to celebrate that, be aware of that, um, be encouraged by that. And then it's an opportunity for us to confess what we believe, and I think particularly that we agree uh with what the church has believed for 2,000 years.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

That's sweet. Touch an encouragement to, I mean, even a reminder that we aren't, we aren't the field church, or we are not the only Christians, not the only Christians uh even throughout time, too. I think we can we've conferred that the apostle agreed helped us to remember that. So I thought it was sweet to get to do. The church did not start in the 1900s. It's been going for a really long time for sure. Well, let's talk a little bit about uh hopefully if you had a chance on Sunday to, or there you can have a chance to listen to um Jeff's sermon on Revelation 15 and 16. So this uh the passage in Revelation on the bull judgments, uh, in large part, this passage is thinking about God's wrath. Uh, I have written down here Jeff's main idea, the main idea from the passage is that we must embrace God's wrath if we are to know his rest. And then Jeff spend some time um fleshing that out uh for us. Maybe first for Brayden and I, some things just as fellow people listening to this sermon, maybe some things, Brayden, that stood out to us or a part that was especially encouraging, or maybe we even had a question about um as you were listening to the sermon. Or I could start too if you want me to.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

No, I think uh one of the things I appreciated and thought was helpful uh even as uh we often get to hear Jeff's sermon a little bit in part on uh beforehand. We do get to do uh sermon reading, but I thought just the part about the Exodus and thinking about how um obviously the Exodus is in some ways a type of the future deliverance of God's people and even what's going on there in Revelation 15 and 16, and thinking about just how yeah, God delivers his people through judgment. It requires a judgment of those who are opposed to God and his people in order in some ways for salvation to come. So just thinking about how God did that at the Exodus and what he's gonna do then in the future, and even just connecting those things in a in a really helpful way. So uh just thought that that was a helpful way and to think about that for uh even in dealing with a a subject that we're not always thinking about, which is God's wrath, and then uh then also framing and understanding how that does bring about rest. So I think thinking about the Exodus, what God has done uh to save Israel and now us in Christ, and then in the future today, like that those those connections are super helpful and encouraging.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Yeah, I agree with Brain. I think uh uh even as you when you when you're explaining some things, Jeff, I think when you brought up well the Red Sea imagery of well, what is it that actually brings uh Israel in the old test? What's that that brings them their rest? Well, it's actually the the the wrath on on the Egyptians following them that we actually see this. You get there from the passage too. I'm sure you'll talk about it a little bit here. Um that was so helpful. I think maybe uh an applicational um uh aspect you gave to us near the end, Jeff, was uh, which I think we often think about this in light of God's wrath, but um, there's a sense that we actually don't need to take matters into our own hands um because because we actually have a God who is wrathful, we actually don't have to do that ourselves. And so I was even thinking about some ways in my own life that I I can live in light of that. So um super helpful sermon. You're allowed to share some things encouraging to you, Jeff, too, or you can just not as well.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean it I'm always thankful that I get to, you know, most weeks mine God's word and um, you know, deliver it, share it, preach it uh to God's people. And and this passage certainly, as I was thinking through it, had much to teach my own heart and soul. And I think honestly, what sort of drove the sermon in some ways was just this repeated refrain that God's judgments are just and true. And um, you just you're seeing that again and again. And then this reminder in the text that for me, that means that it's it in my heart, often I'm I'm thinking my inclination is to think that God's judgments are severe or that he is severe. And for most of the early Christians, I think when they would have read this, they would have longed for God's judgments. The fact that God's judgments are just and true is that God will judge. And so that's just helpful for my own heart to be reminded of honestly, that that big main point that actually God's wrath is good because God is good. And not only is God's wrath good, it's actually good for us. And then to be reminded, especially as we're working through Revelation, Braden did a great job of this last Sunday, too, that the reason why it is so good for us is that Christ took the wrath that we deserve for our sin so that we might have rest. And uh that just always encourages my heart. So just to think about Jesus as the Passover lamb in the midst of Revelation 15 and 16 was just a real encouragement to me.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Praise the Lord. Uh, here's a question for us. Uh, and I think I'm I'm guessing I'm not the only one, but when we do think about God's wrath, I think often the first thing that comes to our head is actually not a level of goodness. I think we we don't think that way. It even maybe sounds strange to us to put those together, God's wrath and and goodness. Um, maybe why why does that sound strange to us? Or maybe some comments that would help us even to think better about that.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Yeah, I can start. Um, I I think partly it sounds strange to us because our wrath isn't good. Um, because our wrath, uh our anger is so marred by sin, it's so selfish and self-centered, it's often so petty. Uh, I mean, it's just very rare. I I know sometimes we talk about like righteous anger. Man, it is rare that our anger is righteous, you know. And so I just think that then means, and we have this tendency uh in our sin to judge God by us. We should judge ourselves by God. We never do that, but we judge God by us. And so I just think so often we tend to think that God's wrath is like ours. Um, and so that's why we have this, I think, struggle, at least in part, that's a large part of it.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

Yeah, I think we certainly just miss, you know, uh probably just have the wrong estimation of sin for one. I think and just understanding uh just what a what an offense against God that it really is. I know that that is certainly true for me and and just how often like you know, we can get that that I think is why our anger goes all sorts of different ways, is because we have you know, we we don't really count sin as the the worst and greatest thing is something that we would offend God, because then we get angry about less stuff if we just saw that actually sin is the worst thing that we can do. So then we recognize, oh man, we've been given grace. I don't need to get angry about this thing here because it's not it's not the sin or it's not that big of a deal, it's just a difference or you know, small little you know, waiting in traffic or things like that that are not not that big of a deal. And yet, so I think that's an area where it's like, man, I I don't we don't estimate sin rightly, so we don't see it as an offense, and so we don't think God should really get that mad about it. We shouldn't get that angry or wrathful against it. And I think you did a good job just helping us see that. Yeah, one of the things I thought that was you know, you you kind of defined wrath as like his holy revulsion against all that is unholy. So like there's a revulsive vileness to it, and uh I don't know that we really feel that way about sin that much, like feeling in ourselves that sin is really this this vile. And so, and so I I think it was really helpful how you even laid out that um for us to to think kind of that um to to kind of apologize for God's wrath or that sort of thing is in some ways for us that that was convicting for me to be like, oh man, like I don't I don't always see God's wrath as good. And it's for some of these reasons that I'm even explaining right now. And and and but to do that is to kind of uh not think his character is is as good as it is, to kind of almost blaspheme his character in like uh these people do in in a different way. Uh but in and of ourselves sometimes we can do that as Christians because we want to apologize for God or think that he and the way that he responds and and does things is is not the way that really is best. So I think kind of what you were saying of us judging the wrong way is is is certainly relevant.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Well, and I don't think it's un like it should be not that surprising to us that that I would argue for most of our culture, holiness is not really that important. Even in even in our Christian culture, if we're really honest, I mean we we struggle with holiness. I I don't think you would say, well, you know what really characterizes the church in the US right now is just this real desire and eagerness for holiness. Well, if you have very little concept of holiness and and the significance of holiness and God's holiness, well then wrath, uh his anger against sin is also probably not going to be uh very significant or important to you, or certainly not good to you. So I uh yeah, I think you're right on there.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Great thoughts. Thanks for helping us think through that. Um, Jeff, something that you brought up, I think people might have questions about, or might be, I think it's a great way for us to think about it too. You um talk about uh God's wrath, and I don't think you use the word uh attribute to think about this, but we actually might not think about God's wrath as a attribute of God, like we would think of God's holiness, God's love. I think you maybe referenced that scripture doesn't say God is wrath, like we see that God is holy, God is love, um, but God has wrath. Uh, maybe can you help us think about that? How that maybe even shapes our view of God's wrath in that too.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

Yeah, and I do think some of it could be semantic. You know, there there are certainly going to be theologians throughout history that would mention wrath as an attribute of God. And I don't think they're necessarily wrong of that, but what I was trying to do is that, you know, God in all eternity past was not wrathful because there was no sin. And so he he did not have he didn't exercise wrath. Um, and so really when we but he was loving throughout all eternity past, he was just throughout all eternity past, he was uh holy throughout all eternity past. His wrath is the outflow of his holy love, of his justice. Um, and so that to me is really helpful. You know, the Puritans used to say that uh God's judgment, his wrath was his strange work, that his love, his mercy, his grace was in some ways his more natural work. And we'd have to be careful in how we're talking through that. But the point is that scripture never talks about God delighting in wrath or um, you know, overwhelmingly it tells us that he is slow to anger, um, and which I think also points that he is quick to grace and quick to mercy. And um, so I just think those are helpful. Uh just uh that's a reminder that I think our hearts need when we read a chapter like Revelation 15 and 16, is to help us see that that the character of God is so good and gracious, and that his wrath needs to be understood in light of his love and holiness. And and I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

I do think one of the things that you brought up, which would be good, I think even even talk about a little bit more, is just like how uh, and one of the things I found helpful was how in the West we might think, you know, not like you you said, kind of these Christians would have thought, uh, will God judge? And we wonder, should God judge? Is that right for him? But even you, the way you brought up um just some of the things that happened in in that culture, some of the things that Christians in an early Roman world would have been facing persecution, some of these Christians would have been first reading Revelation, like what they would have been going through and why they would have been wondering this and and also rejoicing in God's judgments and thinking about how that is some ways far removed from us as American Christians. And so just thinking about that, I thought was a helpful maybe uh difference to look at and why we might not feel the same way or rejoice in the same way just immediately when we hear these things. Any other thoughts about that or why that might be or things that to draw out of that?

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Yeah, I mean, I I absolutely think that's the case. I mean, I do think one of the reasons we struggle with God's wrath and his judgment is because we just uh aren't as aware of the darkness and evil of this world. Now, I think there are Christians today that are. Uh, I think there would be Christians in other parts of the globe that would also very much long for God's judgment and are wondering, God, will you ever judge? Like, will you um deliver us through judgment? Will you judge the sin and wickedness and evil of this world that they are facing, you know, forefront, very similar to the early church, but that's not true for us mostly uh in in the United States. And so I do think that's hard for us then. I mean, as we think of neighbors who um aren't Christians, and so we think of even our worldly system, you know, we're gonna talk a little bit about it this coming Sunday, but our culture seduces us more than it oppresses us. And and I think that that means it's different. We tend to love the world more than get beat up by the world. Um, and so I think that our our desire for God's judgment and wrath then might be lessened by that, or our difficulty in understanding its goodness um makes that is probably um at some level brought about by uh some of those factors.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Super helpful. I think it's in the same line with this. I remember years ago here in um uh maybe something that would someone would have a problem with Christianity in our culture is that God would be would judge sin. Uh and then in other cultures, people might have a problem that God actually would be merciful to people if you like in the realm of what kind of real suffering, hardship have you seen in that? And so that'll just remind me of um what we're talking about in that. Somewhat in line with that, somewhat of a change of question too. Uh I think uh a helpful um part of the passage you talked about, uh a decent amount, Jeff, that I think you had a lot of good points along along the lines of is in Revelation uh 15, verse 2, uh we see this sea of glass, which actually is not the first time we've seen it in Revelation. Uh, you had a lot of things you talked about from this sea of glass that I thought were really helpful to us. Maybe remind us what does this sea of glass signify? Uh, and then what are some aspects of it from our passage that um are an encouragement to us that actually um we see in light of this sea of glass?

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah, so in Revelation 15, we get this vision of I I think the church, uh those who have conquered by the testimony of the Lamb and uh or by their testimonies to the Lamb and who are have been faithful uh to Christ, and and their this vision is of them in heaven, um by the throne of God. That's that's the first time we see this sea of glass is actually in Revelation 4, 6, and and it is pictured in the throne room of heaven, right at the before the throne. And so these saints uh in Christ are standing before the throne in Revelation 15 on this sea of glass. And I think the interesting aspect in both of those passages, what what's the significance of sea of glass? Well, it's see the sea is this throughout scripture, but especially in Revelation, is a uh it's chaotic, um, it's evil. The beast in Revelation 13 rises up from the sea. Um, and and the perp, the point then of it being a sea like glass is that it is flat and it is smooth. Uh, you think of glass, it's clear. So I try to use the image of a if you've ever been out to you know the ocean on just a really flat, clear water day. Um, there is this peaceful aspect to it. There's this restful aspect to it, there's a clarity to it. You can see through it. You're not worried about what's underneath or because you can see things. I think that's the picture in Revelation is that one day um when Christ returns and his judgment is final, we will know this rest and peace and clarity after having lived right now in a time of so much chaos and unrest and confusion. Well, that will not always be so. Um, and that actually this uh rest is brought about by the destruction of sin and evil and the enemies of God and his people. So I that I think that's the picture and and point there.

unknown 20:24

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Mother was very helpful. Um, just as you explained that. I think a lot of pieces were coming together for me, I think for others as well when you were um talking about that part. Um, maybe one more thing, maybe more applicational for us. Uh, and it was something I even brought up earlier, but um, you do bring up the application um that because our God really does judge evil, that we actually, in a sense, don't have to take matters into our own hands. We don't have to avenge ourselves. You referenced uh Romans 12 in this part as well, Jeff. Maybe some what are what might be some practical ways that it might look in our lives that we we don't have to be defensive and defend ourselves, avenge ourselves, uh, but also we're not a doormat as well, that we are are firm, but gracious, what what are some ways that might look in our lives as we think about um yeah, applying that to our lives?

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Say you're at work and you have a boss or a coworker who has some authority over you that is just making you miserable and is treating you very harshly and um and is is really difficult and and honestly is sinning against you. Uh you don't have to uh get revenge. You can actually think about your coworker or your boss's good first and foremost, um, and ultimately the glory of Christ because of what Jesus has done, um, and because all evil and sin will be judged, you don't have to get the judgment. And here's what I think that means is that you can love your boss. Um, you can actually do good to your boss. Now, I would argue that doesn't mean being a doormat, right? It wouldn't mean just letting your boss. Do you know act evilly and that sort of thing, it might mean taking the necessary means that that you have to help your boss uh to see his own you know unrighteousness, his um the ways in which he's not managing helpfully and and and well and and those sorts of things. I think it'd be right to do that, to have a conversation with him, even to point out uh things. That's all right, but you don't have to do so in a way of wanting vengeance, uh a way of wanting him to get his. And if he doesn't respond or she doesn't respond, you uh can still forgive and and you can uh still love and you can pray and you can even bless those who persecute. This is a lot of what Jesus is talking about in the uh Beatitudes, that requires the our ability to do that requires that God actually does get vengeance and that he has wrath against sin uh and that he will make all things right. And so I I think it's really practical. I I mentioned students who are in school. I mean I remember when I was in high school. I mean, I there were times when I got mocked for being a Christian in some ways that were really harsh. And you know, your blood gets kind of up your neck, and you want to, especially for me, like I want to respond and and and to just say, no, um, I can not take matters into my own hands. I can certainly hold my ground and be faithful, and I need to do that, but I can really love these people and I can uh pray for them and um and keep walking in faithfulness. And and I think that's a a huge help to us as Christians.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

Braden, anything to add in that? Yeah, I do think one of the things that comes to mind about that that scripture speaks of that I think just does help us in uh relationships with other people and in and uh having a kind of again, what revelation in some ways is doing is helping us see God's perspective, heavenly perspective on our earthly realities, is what Ephesians says, that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the principalities and powers, you know, like those are the things that are actually the real enemies and not people. And the reason that people might be and feel like real enemies is because of satanic forces of evil that are at work in them, that they are executing and and and opposing God's people because of that. And so, in some ways, that helps us then to be able to love our enemies because we recognize people it's it's not really actually them. They're being influenced by sin and by evil that that is a part of you know this world and all that opposes God. And that that helps us even to to recognize that we we can love them, we can do good to them, and that that we also were by nature children of wrath, destined for for that, and yet Christ has saved us and now made us uh reconciled to God. And so, so likewise we would hope and pray that that that would be the same of this person, even if they are treating us like an enemy, does not mean that we have to treat them like an enemy because we recognize that that's not our greatest battle.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Yeah, if I could mention too, just briefly, because I think it's important, Revelation or Romans 13 follows Romans 12. And and Romans 13 is the fact that God, by his uh grace and and justice, has given us the state um and has given us civil authorities. And that they actually, that's one of the ways that God judges sin and evil right now is through the state, through civil authorities. And so it would be right for us if we are, I think police officers and uh court systems and those sorts of things. That's a that's a great way to pursue uh justice and um and judgment and those sorts of things. The problem is if if we would go, well, they're corrupt, which they were in Rome and sometimes are, and or they're not doing what they supposed to do. So we're gonna take matters into our own and do something that is illegal or wrong or that. I mean, you just see how many different ways that this is a problem. Or we can say, well, even if the means by which God has given us in this um, you know, fallen world, if those are also corrupt or at least, you know, sometimes fallen and and riddled with sin, we still trust God ultimately to get vengeance and justice. And so we can uh live even when persecuted. And I think that was the call to the early church is to, you know, not to take up arms against Rome, uh, but to suffer faithfully um and endure suffering for the greater cause of Christ.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Well, this has been so helpful, just thinking about yeah, the reality of God's wrath really allows us to love others even that we even when they are not lovely. Um, Jeff Brady, any your closing thoughts for us as we wrap up this podcast?

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Maybe one last thought is just the idea that not only does it mean that we don't uh have to like get revenge and we can love others, it also means we don't have to be afraid. Uh I I do think this idea, the fact that God is going to get judgment and he's going to judge sin and evil means that evil has an expiration date. Like that there won't always be evil in this world. So it is not ultimate. Um, and and that is such an encouragement. Because I think right now there are a lot of Christians that are that live in fear and and they cower before darkness and evil. We don't need to do that. Um, we have a God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who is greater than the darkness, who is the light. And uh, and and that should be a confidence. The Christians in Rome, um, it the early Christians, for sure, they were fearful, but passages like this gave them such courage uh that they could be faithful uh amidst persecution and that God would win the day. Um, and we need to have that same sort of humble confidence ourselves too.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Praise the Lord. That's what we'll leave you with today. Thanks for listening. See ya.