WEBVTT 00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:09.359 Hello everyone. 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:18.160 It's another week of TUC Talks, and today I have the absolute privilege of sitting with Saint Dennis Towner. 00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:19.359 Hello, Dennis. 00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:22.399 Thank you, Richard, and welcome to our place. 00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:23.440 It's fantastic. 00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:27.120 It's a very chilly day, but uh it's nice and warm in here. 00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:30.640 Lovely to come to your place to record today. 00:00:31.120 --> 00:00:37.039 Dennis, we're going to be recording and talking about Sunday, the 31st of May. 00:00:37.200 --> 00:00:37.600 Yep. 00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:44.880 And we're going to be looking at the reading, which is 1 Corinthians chapter 12. 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:46.000 That's the one. 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:46.560 Yep. 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:48.560 The 31st of May. 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:51.439 Did you know that there was um two full moons? 00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:52.479 It was a blue moon. 00:00:53.039 --> 00:00:53.840 I didn't know that. 00:00:54.079 --> 00:00:56.399 It was a blue moon on the 31st of May. 00:00:56.560 --> 00:01:00.719 And apparently the moon is the furthest away from the earth that it gets. 00:01:01.039 --> 00:01:01.679 Oh, really? 00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:02.079 Yeah. 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:04.719 Piece of trivia for you before we start. 00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:05.599 Yeah. 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:13.120 So everyone, the reading was 1 Corinthians chapter 12, and it was all of chapter 12. 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:18.640 And that was where Paul was describing that there are spiritual gifts. 00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:24.159 Everyone has a spiritual gift, he was saying, and it's a bit like the way the body works together. 00:01:24.319 --> 00:01:25.920 We're meant to work together. 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:40.560 And uh Corinth Corinthian congregation was a real problem for Paul because they got over excited. 00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:47.599 And uh they uh threw the baby out with the bath water, I suppose you could say. 00:01:47.760 --> 00:02:06.799 And uh uh there were all sorts of problems about the community, about their uh cohesion, about their belonging together uh as a community, and it was largely because the way they exploited the gifts that the Spirit gave them. 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:12.560 Yeah, it does seem like they're a fairly tense community when Paul is writing to them, isn't it aren't they? 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:12.879 Yeah. 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:26.960 But the Corinth itself was a a very fascinating community because it it uh it has a history of being destroyed by everybody who ruled them centuries before. 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:31.439 And when we visited there, it's a ruin now uh a few years ago. 00:02:31.680 --> 00:03:03.039 Anyway, um there were sailors because there's a narrow isthmus between the mainland and Peloponnese, the b big bottom bit where Corinth is, and so for trade the ships had to come to the port on the uh western side, uh uh sorry, the uh the western side, and then the they had to download it and had to be carried by carts over to the other side of the isthmus when there was another port. 00:03:03.520 --> 00:03:07.840 Yes, because it would take a it would take like a week or more's travel off, wouldn't it? 00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:11.199 It was a long travel out around the peninsula. 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:15.599 To go around was dangerous, so they had to go. 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:20.960 Now in the 19th century, they put a uh a canal through there. 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:22.639 So there is a canal through. 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:29.280 Anyway, there were warfys and sailors and uh prostitutes and it was a fairly rough little world. 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:32.719 A very fascinating community. 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:37.039 Yeah, so it was a fairly rough little world that the Corinth Church was in. 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:37.840 Yes. 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:46.319 And so and and I suppose one of the things for the Roman world was it was quite hierarchical, wasn't it? 00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:50.479 There was the powerful people and the less powerful people. 00:03:50.960 --> 00:04:01.039 And so I suppose that if that was pl playing out in the church, there would have been people would have been clamoring for being the most powerful in the church community. 00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:07.199 Specific gifts were discerned as marking you as the elite. 00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:18.319 And so uh some people would say, You're nobody's no we're the real church Yeah, we're the most important. 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:21.199 We have the most demonstrative gifts. 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:22.319 Yes. 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:23.360 Yeah. 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:30.480 Which is so, in a sense, with that kind of context, you can see why Paul is writing the way he is, of course. 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:31.360 Oh yes. 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:44.000 Because he's he's very, very resolute that this one of the things that I like describing the church as, or what Paul tries to describe the church as is egalitarian. 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:50.959 Everybody was Everybody's important, everybody's welcome, everybody belongs to Christ. 00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:51.600 Yeah. 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:53.519 And you can't take that away. 00:04:54.319 --> 00:05:03.120 And if we live that out in the church today, that means that everyone in our congregation is equal and valuable and important. 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:04.319 You know what? 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:07.439 I I went to R Repair Cafe. 00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:13.199 Yes, and I sat with Michael and uh along came Janet Seith. 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:21.759 He brings her from Tarragog Glenn, uh, and uh uh she and Ann go back from when I was the minister here. 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:33.199 She wasn't part of our congregation, she was a Christian, uh and but she and uh and Anne cooperated in a uh project to support uh a an orphan from overseas. 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:38.319 Anyway, she made an important comment which is relevant to what we're talking about. 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:41.279 She said, I love coming to this church. 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:46.720 You feel included, you feel welcome, and there's service. 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:47.759 Yeah. 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:49.120 There's a chance to serve. 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:50.959 Yeah, you get a chance to serve. 00:05:51.199 --> 00:06:03.439 Well, because that's one of the things that one of the opening lines from the chapter 12 passage is that Paul says there are a variety of gifts, and they are there to be given to us to serve. 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:03.759 Yeah. 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:07.680 Each one has its own corresponding service. 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:09.199 Corresponding service. 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:15.199 And it's really important that we say that from the start, that the gifts are given to serve. 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:15.839 Yep. 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:23.199 They're not given to sort of say that I am more precious or I am more special or I am more powerful. 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:25.519 They are all given to serve. 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:32.879 So so that's the that's a good starting point for this whole conversation that in Paul is doing here. 00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:39.920 He's basically saying, you know, we all get gifts, but they are all to serve. 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:40.319 Yeah. 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:48.879 Which fits with a lot of the other, like when we were looking at Philippians, Paul starts by calling himself a slave to Christ. 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:49.199 Yes. 00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:54.160 And then in the document he talks about how Christ was a slave to us. 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:54.800 Yeah. 00:06:55.040 --> 00:07:01.199 And and in a sense, that theme is followed in Corinthians with there is a service for us. 00:07:01.519 --> 00:07:01.839 Yeah. 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:06.399 And he lists a few of them, well, quite a good list of them. 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:13.360 Uh the the uh service, the opportunities, uh with the cor their corresponding gift. 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:14.319 Yeah. 00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:22.160 One of the things that I'm I'm probably going to talk about it more over the six weeks of looking at the gifts of the spirit. 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:33.680 One of the things that I'm quite passionate about is that we start looking at the gifts of the spirit in the scriptures, and we almost try and make a definitive list of the gifts. 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:38.240 You know, there are this many gifts, and here they are, and which one do you have? 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:38.959 Yeah. 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:46.879 But the truth of it is there are so many gifts, and we can't name them all. 00:07:47.600 --> 00:08:04.000 You know, um, Sharon the other day that works with me on the pizzas was saying, Richard, I, you know, I I hope that my spiritual gift comes up as pizzas because otherwise I'm gonna have to be doing two or three things around the church rather than just this one. 00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:08.000 You know, like yeah, she she has a real gift in helping out with that. 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:10.240 She does so many other things as well. 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:15.680 But I actually think the coordinating and organizing of the pizzas, it is a gift. 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:16.079 Yeah. 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:26.079 You know, I sometimes we try and turn spiritual gifts into a more spiritual thing than the practical thing that it might be. 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:26.560 Yes. 00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:40.720 And uh the early days of the charismatic movement in Australia, I guess in some other countries too, was there's so much excitement about the uh super gifts, if you like. 00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:44.960 And and that led to confusion in some congregations. 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:51.039 It also led to many ministers saying, we don't want anything like that around our our church, thank you. 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:51.360 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:54.639 Well, they're doing exactly what the Corinthian church was doing, weren't they? 00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:58.960 People trying to say, well, my gift is more special. 00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:01.440 And I know there is a better way of saying that in English. 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:07.039 You know, but but no one's gift is more important or more special. 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:07.600 Yeah. 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:31.440 And uh when I was the minister here uh yeah it was Gordon Dicker, another minister and I were, we went uh to Bathurst to a uh seminar thing that was jointly between the Anglican uh Board of Education and the Joint our Joint Board of Education. 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:37.279 And the speaker was an American Episcopal priest. 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:38.240 Oh yes. 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:40.879 James Fan Hagen the Third. 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:44.159 Though he was very down to earth. 00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:44.799 Was he? 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:47.840 And I remember one thing that he said. 00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:53.200 He said, this was right near the end of this of the weekend. 00:09:53.840 --> 00:10:06.639 The Lord has distributed in each congregation of his people sufficient gifts for that congregation to be effective in its mission. 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:07.679 Yes. 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:08.879 Yeah. 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:21.279 And like that's really important because the the gifts, if God gives us gifts to be used, if we don't use them in some way, the church's ministry is diminished. 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:22.080 That's right. 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:22.320 Yeah. 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:33.759 You know, if if we refuse to play our part, because that Paul, after the after the list of gifts, he goes on to talk about how the gifts function like a body. 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:34.720 Yeah, yes. 00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:40.559 And that that without all the bits, you are not able to function at your best. 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:45.120 I love the the uh imagery he uses for that. 00:10:45.600 --> 00:10:46.159 Yeah, yeah. 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:49.519 Like, you know, if if everyone wanted to be an I, how would we hear? 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:51.039 Yeah, yeah. 00:10:51.279 --> 00:11:00.879 And because that because sometimes we actually look at the the big and visible things and say that they are more important. 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:04.320 But that actually confuses it. 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:16.240 And he goes on, like Paul actually goes on in this passage, doesn't he, to actually emphasize that some of the more discreet gifts are actually the ones that we should honour deeply. 00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:25.679 Yes, you know, I he's he's referencing the body and sort of saying there are some things that shouldn't be shown in public, yeah, but they're still really important. 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:26.720 Yes, yeah. 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:27.919 Yeah. 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:32.559 And I think that's a really powerful image that we can play with. 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:54.080 You know, how do we how do we actually honour those gifts that people I was saying to the Tuesday congregation this week that in when I was in Dorigo as the minister at Dorigo, I had a member of my congregation who came to me very earnestly and said, Richard, I pray for you every day. 00:11:54.320 --> 00:12:04.399 And I knew that that wasn't a hollow statement at all, that that man earnestly mentioned my name and and prayed for me. 00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:08.480 Occasionally I think he might have prayed, and could you just help him get a bit more organized? 00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:10.480 His name wasn't Bruce Spine, isn't it? 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:16.559 No, you know, like like he was, but he would earnestly pray for me every day. 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:25.519 And and I'd you wouldn't have known it unless he told me, but that was a really powerful gift that he was holding. 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:34.799 You know, that that sense of holding someone in prayer every day, it was a discreet gift, but it was a powerful gift. 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:36.559 Yeah. 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:38.799 So yes. 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:40.559 The imagery of the body. 00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:44.159 Tell me what you think about the image of the body in this in this passage. 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:46.879 Oh, uh, I think it's a very relevant. 00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:54.960 Uh uh how each part of the body is necessary and each part of the body needs uh the others. 00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:55.759 Yes. 00:12:56.240 --> 00:13:05.679 And uh I think this is one of the reasons why of all the churches I've served, Terrible remains to be my my favorite. 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:14.240 And uh it was because people discovered their gifts and were given responsibility and used them. 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:36.799 And and you can see some of those people like the Earps and uh and uh a few others uh uh around still, that uh uh uh when uh my mate Vernon Prouse did a locum here in between before you came, and he said, I don't know, Natty, they've got so many powerful women here. 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:37.279 Yeah. 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:40.159 I said, Yeah, I gave them the responsibility. 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:46.480 It is one of those things of each of those people offering their service in different ways. 00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:47.279 Yes. 00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:48.399 Yep. 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:49.360 Yeah. 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:53.919 And and Paul really he drives that home in so many ways. 00:13:56.240 --> 00:14:01.039 So how do we f how do people find out what their gift is? 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:05.120 Tell me what your thoughts are on on how people discern their gift. 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:10.480 Oh mostly I think somebody else has got to tell them. 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:11.440 Yeah. 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:16.080 I think I think you I think you're good at that. 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:21.679 I I really appreciate the way you do something uh uh uh in that way. 00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:26.799 Um does that mean that others have the responsibility of pointing out gifts to people? 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:29.840 Like, do we need to have the responsibility of pointing that out to people? 00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:42.320 Well, I think we can bear in mind that if you see somebody else you know in the in the congregation and you think that they've got a gift that they're not aware of, gently tell them. 00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:43.279 Yeah. 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:48.320 Because that encouragement actually can raise someone up to doing something that is important. 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:48.879 Yeah. 00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:50.720 I hadn't thought of it like that. 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:51.440 Yeah. 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:52.320 Yeah. 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:59.440 So so, in a sense, that and that's not just one person that has the gift of doing that. 00:14:59.600 --> 00:14:59.759 No. 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:05.519 It's all that's that's a responsibility of us all to encourage each other to take up their gifts. 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:16.080 I've I've got one other thing that I'd like to I still haven't been able satisfactorily resolve this question. 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:33.679 What's the difference between a gift that we have by nature or by experience training and a gift of the spirit that comes out of the blue? 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:34.639 Yeah. 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:46.399 Is there are are the gifts just our natural abilities that God is putting to use through the spirit, or are there particular things that are bestowed on us? 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:47.279 Yeah. 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:47.840 Yeah. 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:50.000 I haven't I haven't got an answer to that question. 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:50.559 Oh dear. 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:54.639 Except except uh when it happens, you'll know. 00:15:56.240 --> 00:16:00.399 Well, I because I think it's a both end kind of situation, isn't it? 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:11.840 Like we some of our natural skills we should be using for for the betterment of others and purpose with his music skills. 00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:13.679 Yeah. 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:27.039 Yep, and that is uh that is a talent that he has, but it's also a I th I think it's also a gift because it it nurtures worship and he has the skill to actually enhance worship. 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:27.440 Yeah. 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:37.840 Like because you can be really good at stuff, but sometimes being really good at stuff doesn't mean that you actually help others flourish. 00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:48.080 It can be you uh showing off and uh waiting for people appreciation, applause. 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:48.559 Yeah. 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:49.120 Yeah. 00:16:49.200 --> 00:17:00.480 So in a sense, if we can actually so it might even be that the spiritual gift might be taking one of our natural talents but helping others flourish through that talent. 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:11.359 Yeah, but ultimately one of the things that is clear here, right through this passage, is that the gifts are about lifting others up. 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:24.480 They're not about lifting you up, and therefore whatever your talent is, if it's being used as a spiritual gift, it is actually raising another up. 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:25.839 Yeah. 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:30.079 Through your ministry, how did you do that, Dennis? 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:55.119 I mean I saw somebody that knew the Lord and uh showed some ability either I or Anne would affirm them. 00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:00.160 It was that affirmation of people, yeah, that affirming them. 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:01.359 Yeah. 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:14.880 And I do love one of the things that I'm really valued is the way that we encourage our children when they're doing their their child, the kids reading. 00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:24.559 And now that we've started a youth prayer on a Sunday morning, that where we've got people encouraging those kids when they play their part in worship. 00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:25.200 Yeah. 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:27.119 And the and the singers. 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:30.799 Yeah, well, when they do the singing too, like the kids do the singing. 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:32.079 Yeah. 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:38.400 The encouraging of others and lifting them up really can help things flourish. 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:40.400 Yeah. 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:52.400 For me, I always want to try and see what people's gifts and skills are so that they can so that we can find a place to use them as well. 00:18:53.519 --> 00:19:18.160 Because it sometimes we've actually I think sometimes when God gives a person a gift, it might actually be prompting the whole church how of a new area for us to explore or a new area for us to enter into in ministry because we might need to encourage people to actually exercise that gift. 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:38.480 Um you know, in the repair cafe that we've started, that was really it started really small, but as people have offered their gifts and skills or their natural talents, it helps it flourish more and more because people are doing those things and bringing those talents along. 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:39.519 And that helps. 00:19:49.039 --> 00:20:01.440 Yeah, we have a massive team nowadays for that repair cafe, and so many so many people from the community coming in and and experiencing it in a really positive way. 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:03.200 Yeah. 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.000 Which which is fantastic. 00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:07.519 Yep, too right. 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:08.720 Yeah. 00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:13.599 What else would you want to pull out from this week's passage, Dennis? 00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:15.680 Is there any other things that you would want to be saying? 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:20.640 I'm trying to think if there's anything in there that I haven't spotted. 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:27.359 I think the uh the the process through the passage. 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:30.240 I think we've ticked all the boxes. 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:38.640 That that ig one of the things you were saying at the start about the tension in the Corinthian community. 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:52.240 It's really interesting that Paul is so strong on the Jew or Greek Greek slave or free stuff in Corinthians, because he's really he's fighting against a culture, isn't he? 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:53.599 Yes, oh very much so. 00:20:53.839 --> 00:21:02.559 He's fighting against the culture of the world in saying we can't accept this hierarchy kind of thing in the world around us. 00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:08.319 We need to actually receive the gifts from everyone else. 00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:09.440 Yep, yes. 00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:16.240 And and we might need to receive the gifts from people who are who we might perceive as less. 00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:30.400 You know, so if a slave woman came along and was offering a ministry, that would have been a real threat to a free man in in the Corinthian church. 00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:36.319 But he has to actually, we have to accept the gifts of others. 00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:46.079 It's a really important I was reading today uh uh an obituary for Judith Wright, the great poet. 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:46.799 Oh yes. 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:49.599 Yes, and uh fascinating lady. 00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:53.519 See I went to school at Wallamumbe. 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:53.839 Yes. 00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:59.839 Uh my dad was the teacher there, and every year we'd get book prizes donated by Wallambi. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:06.079 One of the rich one or two of the rich Grazi is including Philip Arundel Wright, Judith's dad. 00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:06.720 Okay. 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:10.160 So I had a vested interest in her. 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:17.200 But one thing that it said about her, she was adamant about Aboriginal rights. 00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:17.759 Yes. 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:26.480 And towards the end of her life, she got so incensed that she wrote this scorching letter and sent it to John Howard. 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:27.759 Wow. 00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:28.640 Yep. 00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:32.559 About uh his policies towards Aborigines. 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:34.240 Yeah. 00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:34.799 Yep. 00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:42.559 And I think the way things are going with One Nation, etc., we need Judith's voice again. 00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:50.559 We do need to be we do need to make sure that we hear all of our all of our community, don't we? 00:22:50.799 --> 00:23:02.559 That we actually lift up everyone in and and that does mean that we don't push someone down because of race, race or culture or gender. 00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:08.160 We can't actually sort of play the accidental hierarchy. 00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:08.720 No. 00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:18.640 But we and and we need to receive their gift as an equal. 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:26.559 Like when so we when someone when someone offers you something, you need to receive it as a generous offer. 00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:28.319 Yeah. 00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:38.799 I know one time when I was doing a meals program, someone offered offered to sort of pay for something. 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:41.200 They were a street person, they lived on the street. 00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:43.359 They offered to pay for something. 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:53.839 And it was a real struggle because I thought you could use that money somewhere else, but at the same time it was a gift, it was a gift that they were offering. 00:23:55.039 --> 00:24:02.079 And and if we diminished them by saying no to that gift, then we diminished their power in that situation. 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:06.960 We need to accept what that person offers and accept what they give. 00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:08.559 Yeah. 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:11.519 Which which I think is that body of Christ image. 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:18.160 Like if we if all the parts of the body are there, we need to accept what the other parts offer. 00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:35.839 I don't like accepting this as payment for what we've given you, but I'm happy to accept it from you as a gift to support someone else. 00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:36.799 Yeah. 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:38.160 Yeah. 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:39.359 Yes. 00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:46.640 Now I did love that Patty was working hard on Sunday to preach for us. 00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:51.759 The image of the jigsaw puzzle I thought was a really helpful one, wasn't it? 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:56.480 That you couldn't see the picture when it was partially completed. 00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:01.279 It was when every piece was in the puzzle that you could see it more fully. 00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:05.839 And every one of us is one of the pieces of our church. 00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:12.400 Well, Dennis, thank you very much for being a part of the conversation today. 00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:13.119 Thank you. 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:14.480 My privilege. 00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:16.720 Nothing else you wanted to say? 00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:18.160 No, I don't think so. 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:18.720 Ah. 00:25:19.119 --> 00:25:27.920 Well, now, as far as notices for the life of our church go, I think is it 24th, Saturday, the 24th? 00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:36.960 I think whatever the Saturday is around there, I think it might be the 24th, is the Saturday that we're doing the um shape workshop at church. 00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:44.960 Get your get let us know if you're coming to that because that's going to be where we explore the gifts of the Spirit a bit more deeply. 00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:45.680 Right. 00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:56.880 Um The other stuff that's happening, at the end of June, we are looking at putting on a um, or is it the end of July? 00:25:57.119 --> 00:25:58.480 End of June, I think it is. 00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:00.160 We've got coffee and cars. 00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:08.400 Remember last year we had a few cars that came along to church and people were able to look at a couple of hot rods and a couple of classy cars. 00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:09.920 We've got that on again. 00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:21.359 So if you've got a car that is quite exceptional that you want to offer to the offer to bring along an exhibit at the coffee and cars, let us know so that we can work out which cars we got. 00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:24.799 I'm afraid all I've got left now are the matchboxes. 00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:26.960 The matchbox car set. 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:28.960 That is very impressive. 00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:33.759 One of the people that actually has a hot rod in our congregation. 00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:40.000 That hot rod actually came out as a Hot Wheels, um as a Hot Wheels model, I think it was. 00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:47.279 I don't know if it was Hot Wheels, it was one of those car models, and yeah, it was his car that was done as a model. 00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:47.839 Wow. 00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:49.759 Yeah, it's very impressive. 00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:53.359 I think they're the key things in the notices at the moment. 00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:58.880 But um thank you very much, everyone, for listening to TUC Talks today. 00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:01.599 Mary is celebrating her 80th. 00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:04.000 Oh, that is a very special moment. 00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:05.759 Yeah, that's this Saturday. 00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:06.559 Yep. 00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:07.599 Yeah. 00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:14.480 Well, everyone, um, I hope you can join us as we continue on in worship over the next few weeks. 00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:19.279 Well, longer than that, but as we look at the gifts of the Spirit. 00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:32.960 And remember, if you've ever got a question in the service that you want to ask about the service or the sermon, if you send me an email, we will try to get to it in the next TUC Talks podcast. 00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:35.519 But um, thank you very much for keeping watch. 00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:38.480 And Dennis Towner, thank you so much for being the guest. 00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:40.000 Thanks for having me. 00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:40.640 Bye. 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:41.759 Bye.