Jesus trial before Pilate

The Rev Richard Harris sits down with the Rev Denis Towner to discuss this weeks reading  - John 18:28-40 - Jesus Trial before Pilate

#Terrigal # church #reading #john

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

G'day everyone. It is our next version of TUC Talks, still warming up to the name, feeling a bit better about it nowadays. Um, today I have the pleasure of Dennis Towner being with me. G'day, Dennis. Hey Richard, good to be here. Now we are going to be talking about the reading from This Sunday Just Gone, which is Jesus on Trial Before Pilate. And it is John 18, 28 to 40. Dennis, I was saying, I don't think I have ever done a service on a Sunday to this, like on a normal Sunday. It's nearly always been a good Friday reading.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Yeah, it actually in the uh three-year lectionary, it's uh and year B, it's set in uh uh for Christ the King.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Ah, is it? Yes. It's just a fascinating passage when you start to dig into it. I I I really I read it very much this week about the politics of it because I actually found that interesting. There's other things you could dig into.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Well, it's certainly about power. Absolutely. Um and uh a fascinating three-way uh uh struggle, if you like, uh, about power. What's who's got the power, what's real power, yeah, and uh and and shows up people's inadequacies when they come when you come boil it down.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

For me, it was very much about how sometimes we disregard truth. Just for those that haven't read the passage, it's that Jesus is taken by Caiaphas to Pilate, and then they take him in, and then Pilate says, Look, he's done nothing wrong, and they say, He's a criminal, we've given to you, he's a criminal, yeah. And then you have this conversation with Pilate, and then eventually you have the crowd crying out, crucify him. For me, each of the people they don't care about truth or justice, they care about holding power, and therefore they're prepared to disregard truth and justice each and every step of the way.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Yeah, yeah, you're dead right. And uh the thing that interests me is that uh though uh uh the uh uh Pharisees and Sadducees just said he's a criminal, when you get on to chapter 19, that's when they uh tell Pilate he claims to be the Son of God. That's when they really uh they're real. But in chapter 18, all they say is we brought in to you because he's a criminal. Yeah, he's a criminal, that's all you need to know.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Yeah, I really for me I I think the the thing that I played with most on Sunday is the contrast because Jesus actually says, My kingdom is not an earthly kingdom, yeah. You know, my it's not an earthly kingdom, and I loved the image of these people are all trying to play earthly rules, yeah, of the person with the most power wins, and Jesus is playing a heavenly kingdom game of it's it's about servanthood, it's about love and compassion. And the the two games don't actually you can't play them in the same space.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

That's like they're playing rugby league and he's playing soccer, that's right, you know, yeah, yeah, this poor soccer player running out and getting burned down by a rugby player.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

That's right, it's two completely different approaches, and you can't work them both at the same time, yeah. And and so, in a sense, when we play as Christians in the world game of politics, we can flavor it, but I don't think we can actually we can't live out the kingdom of God in the world politics completely.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

No, no. I think Fred Noel was a good example of that for me, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact, I think Jesus, when he talks about it, he talks about us being salt and light. He doesn't sort of talk about us taking over. No, it's it's about salt and light, isn't it? We we flavor this world, we bring light to this world, but we live in a heavenly kingdom that isn't a part of this world at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Uh and uh I've been fascinated. I've checked out on Pilot. And a lot of things about Pilate the first uh uh which explains his insecurity. He was actually a very corrupt guy. Oh, was he? Historically, yes. He uh uh won wrong foot and and uh he could lose his job. The other thing is they sent him to Palestine.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

So it was a bit of a it was a bit of an unlucky gig, was it? Yes. Even though I've actually heard that Caesarea where he was living is actually really beautiful, that patch of coastline. Yeah, but it really was he was sort of going into a pretty desolate part of the world that he was going back into when we're around Jerusalem.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Yep, yes. And uh who wants who wants that giga? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

So he was quite a corrupt man.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Yes, yeah. And uh so Namanda um in in chapter 19, when the uh the uh Pharisees, the Sadducees say, Well, dub you into Caesar, he freaks out. Yeah, and uh he says uh uh he brings Jesus out and say he says, He's your king. And they say, We have no king but Caesar.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

But that's the next chapter. That is the next chapter. But look, the crowd just want to get rid of him.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Yeah, and that that call of release Barabbas. Yeah, uh it it's really interesting because they they don't Barabit Barabbas it actually says Barabbas is a criminal in one spot, it says he's a revolutionary in another.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

The Jews would see him as a freedom fighter.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Uh so like so in a sense there was uh this bloke is on our side kind of thing. Yeah. For me, there's uh a real sadness in the fact that Jesus has just stymied at every step in this conversation. And it's almost it's almost like he is prepared to go through this and he won't stop it at all. I the other thing that I found interesting, one of my commentaries was saying it's fairly it's actually wrong of them to say we can't put someone to death, because only a couple of chapters before they're trying to stone Jesus to death. And you know, Jesus protects a couple of people like that, the woman caught in adultery, yeah, he protects her from being stoned to death. So the Jewish people must have had the capacity to kill someone, or but they might not have been able to put someone to death in a public trial kind of way.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Yeah, I think that's that's that's correct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Yeah. So so when they say to them, you know, look, you know, we can't we can't put him to death, they could if they just had a mob that threw rocks at him, but they can't they can't crucify him and they can't make that public example of him.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Yeah, yeah. They can't uh get rid of him by execution, by a judicial inverted commas process.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Yeah, yeah. So but there's no doubt for this passage that that is what they want to achieve. And they will actually let go of all of their morality to do it. Like the Pharisees and the Sadducees and Pilate, in doing what they're doing, they basically dismiss their moral code, if they have a moral code, because they are prepared to one, let a man go to his death without really without really a crime, you know. Yeah, and and and Pilate doesn't find the crime that he has of some people thinking as a king anywhere near enough to actually executing, but he does it anyway because he's frightened, he wants to hold his power.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Yeah, yeah, yes. But he he knows in his heart that Jesus is absolutely innocent. He questions him. I mean, it's a funny dialogue, but uh uh uh uh that dialogue with uh with Jesus, but he can't fault him. I find no fault in him, he says. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Which for me asks a couple of real questions about the way we behave today. Like I I think it's probably quite stark in the world around us at this point in time that there are moments where people are put on trial inappropriately and injustly. Like there's and and we also the other thing that I was trying to emphasize in the sermon is that everyone here believes if they just put Jesus to death, their problem will go away. Yeah, it's actually not whether he's done something wrong or not. So for Caiaphas, he's the one that has already said, you know, if we kill one person because he's causing problems in our society politically, we might be okay with the Romans. Yeah. And and then Pilate is saying, well, if I if I get rid of this man, if I if I put this man to death, you know, Jesus, then the Jews won't riot on me. Yeah. And so everyone is doing that, they're trying to blame one person for a far bigger problem, and it won't fix it. And and I think we do that in our society. Like the amount of times that I've heard this whole housing crisis being equated down to people coming in from overseas. Yeah, and and if you actually talk to economists, from what I understand, I'm I am no economist, by the way, Dennis. I heard a conversation on ABC that it's actually sort of true and sort of not true because we use them a lot.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Minor contributor.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

It's a contributor, but it's not the reason. No, you know, and and some of the people that we're bringing in from overseas are actually the people that are building the houses nowadays. But we try and we try and work out one person or one group of people and try and pin the whole issue on them.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

And that's that's problematic. You know, I don't know how we try and help that that's one of the things that I think in our society that we've got to be careful of that we don't become the mob sort of saying, oh, look, all immigrants are problems. Yeah. Or uh, you know, considering, let's face it, my family was my family's been in Australia for 180 years, but we're immigrants. There might be three or four generations of us, but we're still an immigrant. You know, nearly all of them. Really, the only people that can claim that they've been around here for a long time is the indigenous people that walked here over a land bridge in the last ice age. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Yeah, my family's been here since 1839. Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

That's a fair time.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

And arrived in Sydney on April Fool's Day.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

So, Dennis, is there any other things in this passage that you would find interesting that's worth looking at?

SPEAKER_00 13:29

Yeah, I uh the discussion about truth. I find that uh difficult to follow.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Jesus says because what Jesus says what what's the words that he uses that because Jesus says one thing about truth that he is is it that he says that he is the truth?

SPEAKER_00 13:58

I came into the world to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me, and that that throws Pilate, and Pilate says, What's truth? What is truth?

SPEAKER_01 14:12

I I find it interesting, I don't know how to interpret Pilate. Apparently, the scholars actually debate this as well. I almost think he is just going, What is truth? Like almost as if I dismiss truth in this situation. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

It doesn't matter if you're I don't really want to discuss it. I don't didn't do philosophy.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Yeah, and I don't care about truth right now because the reality for me is if I kill Jesus, this problem might go away. Whether Jesus is truth or not, to Pilate, it almost seems, well, that matters little at this point in time.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

It's a cynical response, really. Yes. Yes, it's quite a cynical response. And and so for me, it's a dismissive one. Some people might say that it's sort of a philosophical one, but it doesn't actually No, I don't I don't think Pilate was up to that. I don't think Pilate was that full of philosophical, really. In this conversation, I had a really interesting conversation with one person after church on Sunday who said Pilate was almost in an impossible situation. They were saying that I don't think we should hang any blame on Pilate here. That because Pilate was in like if the blame should go anywhere, it should go on Caiaphas. They they think that Pilate was trapped in this impossible scenario of if he let Jesus live, he would have a riot on his hands. If he kills Jesus, he's got less chance of a riot. And so they would say that Pilate basically was trapped. I agree. And and that is a really good reading of the passage. But I also think that for me, the learning in Pilate is his weakness of not actually standing up for what is right. Yeah. Which we've got to try and do in our society around us. You know, I think that's one of the calls of Christians is to stand by truth.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Yeah. Any other bits or pieces that you found interesting, Dennis?

SPEAKER_00 16:29

No, I don't think so. I think that just about covers it. Uh Caiaphas really had the Jewish leadership under his thumb, that was for sure.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

They were pretty unanimous.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

They were. I found it the week before, I found an interesting conversation about Annas and Caiaphas. And do you know, did they actually have a term of being the gr the high priest?

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Was it like a I don't know how that worked out, but Annis was the previous high priest, and and it was Caiaphas's what father-in-law, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Yeah, so Annas was the previous high priest. Caiaphas, he was Caiaphas's father-in-law, but everyone talked to him as if he was still the high priest. It's almost like he still held great power, being a previous high priest, which was I found that quite interesting. So, in a sense, he and Caiaphas, they they do play the same tune here when they both want to get rid of Jesus, but I still don't quite understand, you know, why he hadn't backed off a little bit. Anyway, it is an interesting one. Um, Dennis, the um if if we've come to the end of this, there's a couple of things happening in the life of the church. This coming Saturday, there is on the 22nd, is this Saturday the 22nd? I think it is, or 21st, one or the other, 22nd, 21st of March, whatever Saturday is. We've got our garage sale happening here for um repairs and maintenance around the building. Um, so that's on this Saturday between 10 and 1.

unknown 18:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

And then the Saturday after the last Saturday of the month, we have the Repair Cafe here. Yep. Um, we're doing really well with the repair cafe, it's got some good connections to the community. Yeah. Um, and of course, the last thing, the first to the third of May, the church camp. I'll probably stop sprugging that soon because it's gonna get hard to sort of buy into that soon. Because we've got to book cabins and book tent sites and stuff, and I don't know how many more of those are left. So if you want to come, jump in quickly. Yep. But beyond that, Dennis, thank you so much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

My pleasure, Richard. And thank you, everyone. I've got to tackle that passage tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Oh, you're doing it on the Tuesday service, aren't you? Dennis is preaching the same thing on the Tuesday service. Enjoy. Um, thank you everyone for listening to TUC Talks, and we will catch you again next week.