Jesus triumphant entry into Jerusalem

As we head towards Easter, the Rev Richard Harris chats with Rev Sue Scott to discuss this weeks readings from John  - 

• John 12:12-27
• John 19:16b-22

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

G'day everyone. We're back again for another TUC Talks. Um, I look, we've got to work with the name TUC Terrigo Uniting Church Talks. Yes. TUC. I've never really warmed anyway. I need to sort of get over my frustration with the word TUC as a name. Um today, everyone, we are looking at John chapter 12 and then John chapter 19. And particularly what's Sue? It's and my guest today is Sue Scott, the Reverend Sue Scott. So what part of chapter 12 were we looking at today? I think it's 12 to 25, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 0:49

12 to 19?

SPEAKER_01 0:52

12 to 19. And then we go on to chapter 19.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Everyone, today is we are looking at Jesus' triumphant entry into Jerusalem and the start of the crucifixion. It was the last week before Easter, so you'll probably be getting this somewhere in Easter week. How are you today, Sue?

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Um going well, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Excellent to hear.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Yeah, sunny Monday.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Yeah, so we're recording on a Monday. Hopefully it'll come out somewhere in the next few days. Yes. Um, Sue, you sat through my sermon. The the triumphant entry. I actually think that the story starts back at Bethany with Mary and with Mary anointing Jesus with uh the pure Nard before they enter.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Yes, it does. And it that's a beautiful uh weaving of the story of John, John's gospel, isn't it? How he puts that there in that place so that we understand what is going to happen.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Yeah. I I actually found for this year for me, the thing that came through was that Jesus was intentional about going to the cross before he walks in, and then the first thing he does after he walks in is he talks about how a grain needs to die so that it can be transformed and rise. Jesus is intentional about heading towards the cross, even though the crowd are cheering for something quite different.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Yes, yes, they are. And I was having been to Jerusalem, I just love how there is this image for me of Jesus coming over the hill from Bethany towards Jerusalem, and there's a a big valley in between, and he's making his triumphant uh entry in full view of the Temple Mount.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Yeah, so he's walking in in and seeing the temple as he walks in.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Yes, yeah. Uh and there are crowds of people come from Passover, but they they have heard about Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Yeah. It's interesting. I have heard that the city would have either doubled or tripled in its population at Passover. People came from everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Yeah. It was seen as an important pilgrimage for the Jewish diaspora to come to Jerusalem.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Yeah. And in the doc in the in the scriptures today, one of the things that I find interesting in the passage is that a lot of the crowd that are cheering for Jesus as he's walking into Jerusalem, they have heard about or were there at the um at the grave when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. So there's this there's this sense of excitement of this man has raised someone from the dead and now he's walking into Jerusalem.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Yeah. So there's this expectation in the air.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Yeah, there is.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Great expectations, as my Bible has a heading here that says great expectations. And I go, yeah, there was this amazing expectation from people about what Jesus would do.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

They were placing all sorts like they wanted him to be a king, and they were calling out that he was a king. They wanted a saviour. Um, and and as I mentioned on Sunday, they were really focused on the military. They were they wanted a military king and a military saviour. They did, indeed. And and so they were calling out for a king, and Jesus is a king, but he's not that kind of king. No, they were calling out for a saviour, and Jesus is a saviour, but not that kind of saviour.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

No, and and Jesus understood those prophecies that came before, and so that's where the uh image of him from Zachariah, isn't it, where he comes in riding on a donkey is is just he he's understood, he's humble and riding on the cult.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Yes, yeah. I I really liked that the disciples reflected back after Jesus came into glory, and that's when they realized about that prophecy. And so for me, today, one of the things that I think is really valuable in that is that it gives us a clue to how we can use scripture. So often we think we read scripture and it teaches us something that we apply now. But in a sense, these guys they read, they they saw Jesus enter into Jerusalem riding on a donkey, and then they realized either months later or even years later, that this was a fulfillment of prophecy. They they went from where they were back into the scriptures, and sometimes I think we need to do the same. We need to look back into the scriptures.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Back into the scriptures. There's another little bit here which is actually from verse in verse 20, yeah, where the some Greeks had come for the Passover, and Philip and Andrew were the ones who went to introduce them to Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Do you know what the question they had was? Because it doesn't seem to have a question in the scriptures, does it? Well, they just said we want to meet Jesus. And then but then it actually says, and then Jesus answered.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Yeah. And he went on with the one about the the grain and the yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

I always do wonder, do like if they I don't think we actually I think we missed the question.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Well, I think w when I was reading it and looking at it, and I was thinking, when they they were amongst the first to be called by Jesus, what did they know when they were called?

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

They would have just thought, well, Jesus is here to rescue the Jews. And what they witnessed through his ministry and what they were taught helped them to understand more and more that included all people. So the Greeks weren't a problem for them because they understood that Jesus was here for everyone.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Ah, so in a sense, that's opening up the scriptures to the to the Greek-speaking people.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

And and I think the it shows the journey of some of the disciples, or most of them, that they were had learned a great deal in that journey with Jesus. They still had to reflect at the resurrection and understand fully because that's mind-boggling if you have, if you'd have been there, just mind-boggling. But then the introducing wanting to see the Greeks, and I'm going, you know, there's so many stories where they uh buffered Jesus from others.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

And here they are, they want to meet you because they've heard all about you.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Ah, so the disciples are actually sort of maturing in their own understanding of what Jesus is on about, and opening up Jesus to the Greeks as well as others.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

And I think that ties in with what you're saying, how we need to really look more at our scriptures and learn more deeply about Jesus and his life that leads us, leads him to his death and resurrection, and how they journeyed with him, and how we need to understand that full life as well, and the history of the Jewish people.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and this opening up is really important because ultimately that's what allows me to be Christ, you know. Yes. Because I'm I'm not a Jewish person, therefore, for Jesus to be open to these people that are non-Jewish, really says Jesus is open to me.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Yes. And when we live in a society which has out like people on the fringe, then we have to understand that that that ministry of Jesus was there for everyone. And sometimes we have to remember that that's not always comfortable for us.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Yes. Yes. Being open to everyone actually means it might be open to people that I'm not comfortable with.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

That's right. And I I it takes me back to my chaplaincy when I was working with people who lived in boarding houses, and I would go to the drop-in centre twice a week and spend time talking with a number of them, or just sitting with them if they didn't speak. And there was one guy who talked to me incessantly about have I told you about the babies who drive the taxis? Now, it was a bizarre conversation every time, but it kept me engaged with him because he no one would talk to him. And it didn't mean I had to agree with him, but it just meant I needed to listen. And sometimes our listening requires us to put aside our preconceived ideas and really, really listen. And I wonder how much Jesus did that as well, whether he really, really was with people who was just so unlike his Jewish upbringing, and I'm sure he was at times. The lepers who were, you know, the fringe dwellers. Anyway, we're moving away from the triumphant entry.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

So I apologise, but it is interesting.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Um, for me, after the Greeks come to Jesus, Jesus goes into that really interesting passage about a seed must die to actually rise up and bear much fruit. Like he's really being quite clear that in his death there will be benefit, you know, like he's actually starting to help us understand that he's gonna die, but in his dying, he will rise up and that there will be multiple benefit for us.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

And we need to have the context to understand the text fully, and I think because it's such a well-known text, yeah. You know, um, those who love their life in this world will lose it. Those who care nothing for their life in this world will keep it for eternity.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Oh, please tell me more. What do you read that as? Because that is a fascinating line, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Well, I I think that we have to. I don't know. I think we have to put aside our our self-interest to try and understand what God calls us to in that loving moment of what Jesus does for us.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Yeah, like I think letting go of self-interest is a good descriptor, isn't it? Because I think Jesus is saying those who love themselves will lose it, and those that lose themselves, yeah, they will gain. And so, in a sense, it is in serving others and it is in loving others, and it is actually in not being self-consumed that we gain the benefit of Christ's life with us.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

And his constant display of humility in his journey, and the like we've heard in the previous weeks, his conversations with Annas and Caiaphas and Pilate, and we go, there's a a confident hum, but it's a humility and a totally opposite to what you would think you yourself would probably say because you'd be so annoyed with Pilate or Caiaphas.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

That that humility you were mentioning before we started the podcast today about Marcus Borg and one of the pieces that he plays, he actually is the theologian that talks about coming in the front of Jerusalem at this time. Yeah, there was probably Pilate and an entire battalion of soldiers with strength in mind.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

And they would have come up from um Caesarea Maritima from the coast up towards Jerusalem, whereas Jesus came from the Jericho side towards Jerusalem.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

So opposite He's coming in the back door, isn't he? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

So coming in different directions, and one's this ostentatious display of power and empire.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Yes. And Jesus is displaying the humility of his humility and his grace. Yes. Because he rides on a donkey and he serves people. Yeah. Where Pilate rides on a horse and has a whole empire surrounding him to try and display his strength.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

It is such an such an interesting passage.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

And and it's and I don't want, you know, it speaks to a world today where empire and power are this uh displayed with might, with the you know, the weapons of war, with the uh language of war, with the rhetoric of war, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Yeah. And Jesus, Jesus will actually look at here is your king humbly riding in on a donkey. Yeah. That's the passage from Zechariah, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It's that he is humble and entering with humility and grace. Yeah. It's a it's a really interesting passage. One of the things that one of the things I've heard a sermon in the past, and I think I've even delivered a sermon in the past, about the crowd and how the crowd transform. Here they are screaming out Hosanna and they're they're laying down palm branches. And some would say that it is that same crowd that in a couple of days' time will be crying, crucify him, release Barabbas. And I actually think I've and I've been talking about the last two to two weeks on your church. We as humans are really fickle.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Oh I yes, I've written that down somewhere about our fickleness and how people will go with the crowd. Yeah. And we've seen that in displayed in different places, and even in our own country where some of the uh some people will get behind this, you know, anti-this or anti-that policy without really understanding things, and are very harmful in the way they treat others and don't seem to really understand the implications of their actions. So the I think that the crowd are cheering because this is what they hope for, this is what they desire to happen in Jerusalem. In their they want to be liberated from this power of Rome.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Yeah. The humility part of Jesus is really important. But also, I actually think it's not just humility, it is a sense of focus. Like Jesus, Jesus, months before, when he was miles and miles away from Jerusalem, he turns towards Jerusalem intentionally, even when his disciples say, Don't go back there, you'll get stoned to death. Like Jesus will turn there and he will walk through this, and he walks through this cheering of the crowd, and then he walks through them crying, crucify him and release Barabbas, and he will carry his own cross to Golgotha, and he does all of this with an intentionality that is so profound, like he will he is going to go to his death for us, no matter what we say or do.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

It's ext to me, it's just so extraordinary that I have to remember Jesus, divinity, and humanity in that in that action of that week, of holy week, of how he he holds himself and how he draws close to God through all of that. Yeah. Because he tends he not tends, he has done that throughout his ministry. He's not going to let go of doing that now. He's just drawing close to God and has understood clearly his time, timing and purpose.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

And that is a really in it is so important, isn't it? That's this is Jesus' timing and his purpose. He is he is intentional about about his love and care for us.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Which actually probably comes to that second reading in some ways, because the second reading is the crucifixion of Jesus, but it's actually not Jesus' death, you know. We've actually read in this chapter 19, I think it's 1 to 12, we actually read Jesus being sentenced to death, and then we now we're going on to him being crucified, and the the crucifixion actually starts in chapter 17, doesn't it? Yeah. So Pilate turned Jesus over to be crucified. Basically, Pilate hands him over and then carrying his cross by himself, he went to the place called the skull. Like he actually it's it's a this astounding image of Jesus doing this for us and by himself. You know, the crowds that are cheering at Palm Sunday, they're a bandit.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

And sadly, the voice of the disciples or the is largely absent.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he's carrying it by himself, and then he is crucified with the two criminals, one on either side. I do love what Pilate does here. Pilate who has been pushed around so much over the last couple of weeks. We've been watching the we've been reading the trial of the before Pilate. And Pilate seems to be wanting to release Jesus again and again and again, but he never can because he's frightened of the crowd. Yes. But he can actually the one thing that he does do is he nails this sign up in three languages and says Jesus King of the Jews. Yeah. And I do like that they go, No, just say that he claimed he was the King of the Jews. But Pilate will go, No, look, I've put the sign up and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

That's gonna be how it is, yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Yeah. It's it's this sort of powerful lead up to the crucifixion. So on Friday, we will read the final part of that chapter where we read Jesus dying on the cross. Um it really is a powerful image. And crucifixion was a terrible death, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 21:59

It was a

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Terrible death.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Oh, it was a humiliating death for people. And you're right, in I mean, as all the gospels recorded, the and all the gospels take time over this week, and John's Gospel does, and the image of Jesus carrying the cross, the image of the the other thieves beside him, is just so painful. And and we can't ignore it because we know what happens, but we also have to be reminded of why it happened, how it happened, and what it means for us. And that requires us to take that journey with Jesus as best we can. We can't know exactly what that was like. There's plenty of shows that have tried to display that. But we we can we can see clearly God's hand in allowing this to be an the journey that Jesus is on.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Yeah. Because we won't do a podcast around Good Friday. Like this really is the lead into that, yeah, that Good Friday story, isn't it? Where we need to sort of look at this as what Jesus is doing for us.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

That you know, the triumphant entry, the crowd are excited about it, but the rest of it, the trial and then the crucifixion itself, yeah, is Jesus continuing that intentional pathway for us?

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Yeah. I was looking at something on YouTube this week about uh the crucifixion, and the this minister was saying, Well, we have all these theories, you know, the theory of atonement, the theory of the says, what if there's there's elements of truth in all of that? So we we need to understand what it means for us personally, because maybe one theory is just not fully how we want to understand it. And I can't pretend I'm not it articulating that as well as I would like, but I guess it's saying that we all have our own understanding of what Jesus' death means for us individually.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

It really is interesting, isn't it? Because it affects each of us quite differently in some kind of way. Yeah, but ultimately this story is about what Jesus does for us. Yes. It is an individual experience.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

But it has powerful collective under a powerful collective understanding.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

And that's where communities of Christians need to hear one another well, listen to one another, and be on the journey that accepts that this is what Jesus has done for us. What does it mean for us to be Christian? So ultimately, I think that's the question that comes out of Easter: is what does it mean to be Christian? And how do I articulate that in a way that helps others to understand?

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Yeah. And in a sense, the what we do as a Christian is as a response to what is happening here, isn't it? Like this is Christ dying for us, Christ rising again for us. This is Jesus giving us eternal life. This is the gift of eternal life and the act that is offering that. But then the service that we do, like you being a deacon, your call was to service. That service is, in a sense, as a response to what Christ has done, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 26:22

It is, it is. And um it was a response to people who were on, as most deacons will tell you, they're on the fringe. People who are not necessarily included. But Jesus was there for He was there for absolutely everyone. He was. And we have to remember that as well. And some people are called to prison ministry, some people are called to encourage congregations to be the best they can, which is what you do. Um, so there's a whole myriad of ways we serve and love God.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Yeah. But each of those services, they are a response to what we are reading about and what we're going to be going through in this Easter week. It is, it is. Because Easter is, I say it regularly. You know, I love Christmas, it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

But Easter is the centre of our faith. This is the heart of what we believe as Christians.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

It is. And it's and it's up to us to engage with the word in a way that helps us to understand more and more each year. And even though I'm retired, I'm still learning and growing. And John's having journeyed through John's Gospel has been wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

I have loved this year so far, journeying through John's Gospel. It's been a real learning experience for me. Like I'm sure at some stage in my my theological degree I was taught about the Book of Signs and the Book of Glory, but really I never dug into it in a way that helped me understand that the first half of John's Gospel, he is presenting this is Jesus, this is the Son of God, this is God in human form. And then the second half, the Book of Glory, this is what the God in human form does for us.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

It's so powerful.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

It is, it is.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

And it is that bit different from the other gospels. Oh, yeah. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

The same story, but he just says it in a different way, and he presents some information because he presents it in a in a way that gives us a case to understand who Jesus is and then what he does.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Sue, is there anything else that you would want to say from either the triumphant entry or the start of the crucifixion?

SPEAKER_00 28:51

I I just think that it we it's about thinking of the death and resurrection and of that journey of Christ in light of what's happening in the world today.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

And how do we how do we respond to that? And I like to think that we as Christians are able to listen broadly because if we become too narrow in our listening, we will miss the opportunity to truly be um followers of Christ.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Yeah. Actually, it's really important that we apply our Christian faith to the experiences that we had going through at the moment. Like, you know, when this all started, this war uh over in the Middle East started, it wasn't great, but it's really affecting our world at this point in time. It is in a big way. Like in a huge way. And people I know people that are not going on holidays for Easter now because they're just a bit nervous that they might go out west and not be able to drive back because there'll be no fuel.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

That's right. And there's a bit of a resentment because it was started by someone in an, you know, started in America, and we we are captive to what happens when they do things in other countries at times. But we're also part of this one planet. So how do we be a good global citizen?

SPEAKER_01 30:31

Really, yes. And then how do we actually show our Christian faith in our actions and in our responses is actually a really important question that we need to do in the world around us at this point in time.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Yeah. So um, yeah, I'm I think I'm challenged by that because I know that I live in a community where not everybody shares the same view, and I have to be aware that how I respond reflects very much upon my faith. Maybe that comes from being a minister too, because sometimes I have felt, oh, you've got to get it right all the time. But we are human, and and just knowing that I have to be thoughtful about my responses is pretty much where I'm at. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Thank you so much for spending a bit of time talking about these two passages. Because look, this week we're going into Easter week, which which probably I should I should tell you what's happening in the life of our church, everyone. So this week we do have it's Holy Week, and that means that on Maundy Thursday we have a service of reflection that just remembers the struggles that Jesus goes through, and we have communion as a part of that. And then on Good Friday, we will remember the crucifixion in our Good Friday services, and we do Thursday we just have an evening one, an evening service. Friday we have the two morning services, then Easter Sunday, it'll be full on celebration. Can I say I'm looking forward to doing a few sermons after Easter because there might be some joy. Yes, it's it's been a bit of a down of the last three or four weeks because we've been going through and that's been important because you know we we need to remember what Jesus goes through to reach the resurrection.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Yeah, yeah. So it's the preparation, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Um, yeah, so I think that's the key thing that's coming is Easter. Yes, yeah. Um, so everyone, thank you very much for joining us with TUC Talks today. And Sue, thank you so much for your reflection.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

It's okay. Shalom, everyone.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Shalom. Um, so everyone, we will hopefully see you sometime over the Easter weekend, either in person or online, and I will try and have a conversation with you next week about Easter. God bless.