Easter Sunday (The Resurrection)

As we come to the end of Easter, Rev Richard Harris speaks with guest Steve Molkentin, on the resurrection of Jesus - Bible Reading : John 20:1-18

#church #easter #sunday #jesus

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

G'day everyone. Today, TUC Talks. Love the name. Um, TUC Talks today, we are meeting, and it is Easter Sunday, and I have Steve Malkington with me.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Hello, Mr. Mulk. Look, the traditional greeting is crust is chocolate, crust is chocolate indeed, but hello Richard.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

I know it's a bit, yeah, there was a lot of chocolate out there. Look, I do the important message every year. Every year. About the eggs. The fake ones are the solid ones.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Please get the hollow. Get the hollow ones. Yeah. And a good quality one that, look, here's some editorializing. Um, that is ethical in the way it sources its chocolate that is Australian made, if we can please, so that we can support the local industry. And that just tastes good.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

One of my good friends, Fuzquiddo, he has just finished for um, he has just finished for the End Slavery Now doing the chocolate assessment for the year. Amazing. There's a whole so if you go be slavery free, if you go to their website, you will see they've got their whole chocolate listing of all the different companies and which ones rate with what ethical standards kind of stuff. Phenomenal work by Fuzz and Carolyn. Yeah, they do a cracker of an effort there. Um everyone, it is fabulous that you can join us for TUC Talks today as we explore the resurrection. We've talked about this enough, haven't we?

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Look, the It is an annual event, but no, no, you can never talk about it too much. Oh, Richard, I'm coming in hot. I've got all my changer chambers loaded for this. There's some thoughts. I have thoughts about this. You've got some thoughts. Big time thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Today, everyone, this the reading that we used this week, we actually did the John's Gospel one, which apparently is the one that most churches like. Because it's it's the most wrapped-up package of see it's very neat and tidy, isn't it? There's a bow on it. I love Mark's version because the the original mark, the women turn up, there is nobody in the tomb, and they run in fear.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Yep. And then doesn't it go?

SPEAKER_00 2:07

And then it ends, and then there's by the way, there's a little bit more, but that's there's two other endings, but they reckon that they were put in a couple of hundred years later. Yeah, yeah. So the original ending just stops with the women running in fear. Look, it doesn't mean that the resurrection isn't real in the John's Gospel, in Mark's Gospel, it's just it's a it's a just a different step. But John's Gospel, it's so well resolved because they turn up, they look in. And one of the things that I did in the sermon today is talking about how it steps out from there. Like it's not like a big explosion of knowledge. Yep. They discover more and more and more. So each step along the way is another bit of a discovery of what it means to have Jesus resurrected.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Oh, the future English teacher in me is going berserk about the way that John crafts this, because in and of itself, the resurrection, there is an argument that the resurrection is absolutely the pinnacle part of our story, right? Here is where everything comes together, and then you have your Daniel Moore where everything sort of fades and we're finish, and it's nice and pretty. Except we know, like all of John's gospel, particularly, has been building up to not just this moment, right? Yes, hello, resurrection, I'm back, things are great, amazing. John's gospel has been building up to the idea that, and I am with you. Just as God was in the beginning, so then also God is with us now. Yeah. So this idea that we've peaked, here's the the pinnacle moment in our story, is actually not the case. But it is definitely the apex of where all of the Old Testament converges with the new, and then the New Testament opens up again. Yes. And and goes, right, so here's what God wants us to do, right? It's that weird moment in in just thinking about narrative storytelling, yep, that we've got all the threads come together, and then a whole new series of threads open up.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Really interesting. One of my one of my um my commentaries that I was looking at actually picks up the resurrection and it sort of says that the most in the part that is really important is Jesus telling them that He is going to be that He is going to be with the Father. Yes. And so it's this it's this line here.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

He's going to be with four gods.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Yeah, yeah. Don't cling to me, Jesus says. I haven't ascended yet. The father um ascended to the father, but go and find my brothers and tell them that I am ascending to my father and to your father, my God and your God. And the ascension in John's Gospel is really important. That I am going to be with the Father and and yeah, ultimately I will be with you as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

And for a monotheistic faith to list it four times is an interesting take. I know that he's meeting the same person, it's okay. Um, and I don't want to diminish, just quickly to double back, I don't want to diminish the resurrection. Absolutely critical in who we are. It's just that weird, if you take the storytelling notes, well, yeah, we can call this this is our absolute moment, and then everything goes to pass, but it's actually there's a whole new beginning on this. And I think that's the intention of the resurrection, right? That it's there is a whole new beginning for for mankind at this point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Yeah, it is our and and we need to step into the resurrection for ourselves. Um, one of the things that I played with in the sermon today, and I think it's really important, is that if we leave this as a story that is someone else's story, yes, the resurrection will always be hollow for us. Yeah, I really like this idea that you you teased out. Yeah, like you know, if if it's someone else's story, of course it's hollow. Like, you know, of course it's only a story if it's a big thing. That's great for you. Yeah. But it only becomes real when we experience it for ourselves. And I'm not meaning rush to a tomb and discover the empty tomb, but experience faith for ourselves. You've got to dip your foot in. You can't actually sit there at the distance and go, well, I don't know if that's for me or not.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

And and I think that's that speaks truth about the human experience, right? If if we just only hear about other people's experience of things and keep it at arm's length to us, then we will go through a very straightforward, pretty dull and boring life. Yes. If all I'm doing is having people report that they had a great time or they had a bad time or they had an angry time, whatever it was, great for you. Meanwhile, over here I'm having my porridge and, you know, blandness and I'm wearing cream and things.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Cool. It particularly for the Christian experience, it it has to be, you know, dare I quote Psalms, it has to be a taste and see scenario, right? This is the charcuterie board of Christendom. Yep. You've got to get involved and try a little bit of this and try a little bit of this. And like I'm, you know, me, Richard, I verge on the heretical at the best of times. If you taste a bit and go, I don't know that I like that, there's some reflection that you can do, and you go, well, I might not lean into that bit, and I'll lean into these other bits.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

As long as you broadly go, I'm into charcuterie, then cool. We'd love to hear have you and we want to talk about it, right? Yes. It's it's a try the whole thing, isn't it? Yeah, nobody likes eggplant. They put it on the board for some reason and then we push away. That's not even. It's like a sneeze. Yeah, come on.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

It's really an awful flavor.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

Let's be fair. That eggplant is the Calvinism of Christendom. I didn't say that. My wife likes eggplant, you know. Your wife is wrong. I know. I love her deeply. That's not right.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

No, no, she needs a headred.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Baba ganoushed away from me.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Yeah. Anyway. Like, but you're right, we've got to try and experience this faith and discover this faith and learn from it so that we can grow into it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Yeah. Because and that's, I mean, this is what we have here is not the birth of Mary's faith, is not the birth of Simon Peter or any of the disciples' faith, right? They've been journeying with Jesus, and dare we say, God had been at work in their lives prior, anyhow. Yes. Right? They're they're getting to this, it is a critical decision point.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

And now they need to make a decision that what I have been told, I believe, or I don't.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Yes. And really, one of the things that I really loved in today's reading in John is that Mary doesn't get it until she meets Jesus. It's not about a theory here. Like, you know, she she's actually been around when Jesus has done those stories of, oh, a seed must die and then it will grow again and then it will bear much fruit. She's she's been around when Jesus said, I'm going to die and rise again. Like she has heard him talk about it, but when she goes, she looks in and she goes, Where have they taken the body? Yep. You know, where is my Lord? Where have they taken him? She's not looking for a resurrected Christ, she is looking for the body. And then after that, she sees the angels. And even after she sees some angels sitting there, she still basically says, Where's Jesus? Where's Jesus' body? Yeah. And when she turns to face Jesus, there's a whole heap of debate about when she faces Jesus and you know, she's she thinks that he's the gardener. The woman is overcome with grief.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Yeah. She's probably not looked at his face. Oh, and let's be fair, getting Jim's mowing out on Easter Sunday morning is impossible. So it's not going to be him, it's going to be Jesus. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. It's she she's it's only when she hears his voice that she goes, Oh, it's not Jim's mowing. It's like the the part of the reason why I love John's telling of this story is, and and if if I recall correctly, so I'm sorry if I get this back to front. In the order of how John tells it, the women turn up, see that the tomb is disturbed, then run and get the disciples, who then turn up and go, Yeah, we don't know what's going on either, and leave.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Yeah. Look, there's a really interesting debate. And in the sermon, I I believe when they get there, the disciples get there, and and so it says, Peter and the other disciples started out to the tomb, and they were both running, but the other disciple outran Peter and he reached the tomb first. By the way, a lot of scholars would say that this is John inserting himself into the story. Sure. So the other disciple, he could be the beloved disciple. Yeah, the beloved. Yeah, look if I'm going to put myself in the story. Please.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

If I'm writing this, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Yeah. The awesome disciple. The very generous version of me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, then he stood and looked um and saw the linen wrappings lying there, but didn't go in. Then Simon Peter arrived and went inside. It's only Simon Peter can, by the way, can't he? Like he's come on, barges in. He blunders forth where others fear to change. What's going on here? What are we talking about? Yeah. It's just the Peter, Peter every step of the way. Anyway, um, he also notices the linen wrapping lying there. And while the clothes had covered Jesus' head was folded up and lying apart from apart from the wrappings. Then the disciples who had reached the tomb first went in and they saw and believed. For until now they still hadn't understood the scriptures that said that Jesus must rise from the dead. I'm not convinced. Like, so there's a debate. Does that mean they looked in and they believed that in the resurrection? I don't think so. I think they looked in and believed what the girls had already told them. Yeah. There was no body. I don't know. I could be wrong, by the way. It might actually be that they believe in the resurrection, but it doesn't quite it's not explicit. It's not explicit, but their behavior from there doesn't really seem to and their behavior later without foretelling.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

I mean, we also know the story, but when Jesus then meets them on the beach, when Jesus says, Oh my goodness, it's like, oh no, we get it now. Yes. Well, we're here. Yep. Short of maybe one of them, but we get there. And and so I think the now-ness, I don't I actually don't think it's critical that this moment they have to believe in the resurrection. I think they have what at this point, they're they're wrestling with all of the feelings of the last couple of days. They're wrestling with wrestling with the fact that their friend who had been telling them that this was going to happen, like getting the synapses to join together in some people, as a future teacher, particularly in young people, when you have told them all of the bits and you lead them to the solution, you have to give them a moment to connect those dots. Yes. And I think at this point, what we're getting in real time is the disciples connecting the dots, but not finishing the equation.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Like they've gone, it's too early for this. Let's go get a coffee, and they bail, which then allows Mary to be there by herself in John's telling. Yep. And have that critical interaction with Jesus, which opens up so much else. I don't know how much you want us to lean into that, but mate, that's where all of my chambers are ready to go on, because I think it's amazing. But yeah, they all toddle off. And I'm sure they didn't walk home in silence.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

They were completely confused.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

There were conversations. Where is the body? What's going on? Who takes the time to fold up the head clothes? Yep. How who shifted the rock? What is happening? Is this indeed what Jesus told us about? Or are we making it up? Are we putting one in one and getting three? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Like because, and again, I think it's for our own faith. If we're talking to someone about becoming a Christian, there are some people that go from completely no faith to everything in one flash. Yeah, good luck to them. But that's rare. Like it's not your average person. Your average person hears the story, starts to become a little bit intrigued, but it's only when they start to experience stuff and connect stuff and build on stuff that it actually becomes more of a reality. And that's what happens with the disciples.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Yeah, oh mate, I had I read a commentator not recently, but I it really stuck with me, who suggested part of the reason why the disciples were confused was not only that they're trying to put the story together in their head, trying to work all of that stuff out, but also acknowledging that there were other forces at play in this, the same forces as the example that brought Jesus to quotes justice. Yes. So too, elements of that or that whole process had some agenda that meant we can actually take advantage of this situation that it may have been a subset of them that came in the middle of the night, rolled a stone, took the body. Here we go, here's some chaos. That we'll put it to an end because if we take the body, there's no, like that's it. There's no tomb for them to go back to. And there's been that's right, we don't make a memorial out of it. Yeah, he's been resurrected, but how do we prove it? Like they didn't know what was to come, and and also then we get to feed into that narrative that we can control.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Yeah, there's no doubt that they are still quite frightened of the authorities.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

I'm not saying that's what happened, by the way. No, no, no, I got you.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

It's a great conspiracy. Yeah, that's I I think you're uh you're you're up with the resurrection like most of us. Yep, I know it's happening. Like the disciples are frightened of the temple officials, they're frightened of Pilate.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Well, we don't get any guards in John's account, do we? And there's no guards at the tomb. No, there's no. Which I think Mark and Matthew both lean really heavily into.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Yeah, they do. And in fact, they lean heavily into like almost the earthquake kind of thing, and then the guards panicking about that. See, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, John You're not paying me enough for this. Yeah, yeah. John, it's very much a borrowed tomb. Like one of the one of the commentaries talks about the women coming to the tomb. Yes. And and almost when she's asking where have they moved the body, it was a borrowed tomb. And so it was always a temporary, my goodness, Passover is almost here. Let's put Jesus in this borrowed tomb, and then we will find a permanent place for him to go.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

It's because it's Luke that reveals that, or suggest Joseph of Arimathea offers his family tomb.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Um, and uh yet unused, which is a nice little trick because this is my family's, this is where we're going to bury my people, but none of my people are in it yet. It's empty to start with. Yes. Neat. So yeah, it everything about it sits really perfectly with this king on a donkey narrative that started the week. Yeah, I borrowed the method by which I would enter into, and of course, prophecy fulfilled, borrowed the method that saw me come in as a king and savior. There's there's readings of that part of the gospel to suggest that Jesus borrowed the glory, shall we say? Now I know that wasn't a Jesus intention, but to see it, it was a reflected glory for God, but the people were projecting it at Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

So a borrowed glory, if you will, that then goes through now to this resolution of a borrowed tomb in which there is nobody. So the the the the carry-on that not only fulfills prophecy through all of it, it still directs all of the glory into God the Father that He then speaks to Jesus then speaks to Mary about.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

God and and reinforces this wonderful Trinitarian take on who God is, that John is consistently reinforcing through the gospel. That's very true.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

Look, John, you're right, it was a very good speech. I didn't break into it because I thought I'll let him on a roll. He's on a roll. He's on a roll. I can't break in. Like the Trinitarian stuff is all the way through John's gospel, and it's actually really important that we that we pick up on what we're seeing there. Yeah. That Jesus and God are are one but relate to one another in the same way. Like so that Jesus is God, but Jesus is God's son, and that kind of stuff, and that the Spirit will come, yes, they are all a part of God. And that that we need to remember that that's a package deal, not broken up.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Oh, and I love the use of the word triune. Anytime we can rip that one out, which isn't very frequently. No. Love it. The triune God, particularly, there's not many other Trinity things that we get to talk about other than in the Matrix, and that's one person. If we talk about like the idea God, Father, Son, Spirit. Yes. And and I remember from my very limited theological study, you know, the how do we represent the Trinity? How a Trinity, how do we talk about it? Yeah. How do we explain it?

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Every way is a heresy, by the way. Good luck, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Drawing triangles and circles and talking about water, ice, and steam. And good luck to any of you.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Yeah, modalism, I think, is what the special. So, yes, each of them is basically a heresy because we can't really pin down the trinity. When I say it's a heresy, modalism, water, ice and steam is apparently, it's wrong of us to see that God in three modes.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

In the in the human experience of Earth, I think there is absolute, there is no, this is my scientific background, there is no point anywhere where all three modes of ice can exist simultaneously. Because if there is steam, there can't be ice. And if there is steam and there is ice, then something has gone radically wrong. Yes. Because it it's absolutely temperature-based in that context. And while you can say, oh, but it's just gone from zero to a hundred and the ice is turning into steam, yeah. But then we're not talking about them coexisting, which is the clear nature of the. In the beginning was God and the word was God, and the word was with God, and it breaks everything.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

There is a beautiful um icon, the icon of the Trinity. It has three pictures of one person, so it's three-three triangle, a wand, and a cloak. No, no, no. It's Jesus. Sorry. It's Jesus in three different sitting around a table, so sitting around the communion table, and it's the same person three times. Yeah. And one of them is dressed in gold, as in the Creator. Yep. One of them is dressed in brown as in the one that walks the earth, and one of them is dressed in white as in the spirit that comes, I think it's white. Sure. And it's a beautiful image of the same character in three different clothes, but in relationship with each other.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

Yeah, and it's not in the same way without dwelling on the Trinity situation. We probably should go back to the resurrection. It's not triplets, friends. Like it's not that scenario. I get that that's a great way to represent it, but it is not, you know, three same versions of the one person that exist in the same place that we can think of as, oh, there's three brothers or three sisters. Nah, that's not how that works. I'm I'm intrigued. I know you and I at least have talked about spoken about this before, Richard. I'm I'm intrigued with on reflection, how some of our brothers and sisters in other expressions of the Christian faith may be talking about, if they're indeed preaching on John this morning, the the reflection of what is Mary's role in the resurrection. Because, and this is absolutely where I lean my body to this notion that ostensibly Jesus is called to convert the nations, to have them all come into relationship.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Starts here. It's not the end of Matthew, it's here. And Jesus says it to a woman. And I don't mean that derogatorily, it's it's acknowledging the place of women in the context. What Jesus was doing was raising women up and Empowering them and seeing them in a community in a society that ultimately diminished them. 2026. And what we get to do here is see that not only are women eminently capable and competent and given gifts to be able to spread the gospel, Jesus prioritized them that she did this.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

She is the first per notice that she is the one that goes back to give the message to disciples. Guess what I saw? So she is the first one that hears the story. Yeah. And she is the one that goes back and she is the sharer of the good news. Like, yeah. So the first person that shares the good news of Jesus Christ is Mary. Yep. She is the one that actually encourages these men to then discover it for themselves because she is saying, look, you know, here's the message from Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

And yet in Year of Our Lord 2026, there are some expressions of the Christian faith that encourage women into ministry with limits. You are not called to be able to preach. Yes, you can run our children's or youth ministry. Yes, you can be on the elders or do all sorts of things. But no, you cannot stand in the pulpit or on the stage and preach the gospel. And I say to you, friends, how is that possible when this is the story God is telling us?

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Yeah, Mary is the one that actually picks the got the good news up and is the first conveyor of the good news. And Jesus tells her to go. Yeah, yeah. She is like she is a disciple. Yeah. She is one of the disciples. She's not, she's not listed in the 12, but she is she is a disciple because the disciples, like if we are genuinely disciples today, the disciple, the 12 were like this starting hub, but it grows out.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Oh, and and look, we acknowledge that in the writing of every book in this collection that we call the Bible was written for an audience of its time and God speaks through it to us today.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

We're not going to pick up the thing and say, when this word, this word that's in this passage was explicitly put here by God, explicitly for this reason, to speak to us today. I mean, God, God bless us, God can do that, God will do that. It's a living word.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

And living means that it speaks to us, but it speaks to generations past and generations to come.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

It speaks to God's influence in shaping it through all of the human men, largely, that have altered, changed, interpreted, understood, reinterpreted, given us this now thing that we read daily.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

That gives us an understanding to be able to say, okay, cool. God still works. God still speaks to us, whether it's 2026, 226, or 26 AD. Yeah. God speaks to us every day through these writings.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

So tell me for you, what's the heart of the resurrection for you today?

SPEAKER_01 25:06

It's it's about us absolutely leaning into this deeply loved relationship. One that shows um a promise made was a promise delivered that empowers us to be engaged in drawing other people into those promises.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Yeah. You know, I was actually I this morning I was debating what stole I would. I've got a couple of scarves that I wear stoles, you know, the the ministerial garb. Yeah, yeah, you with your dress. Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't wear the dress that often. But anyway, this the scarf, and I decided to this morning to wear the rainbow one. Good choice. And the rainbow, because the rainbow is a reminder that God keeps God's promises. Yeah. And right through the scriptures, we have seen God keeping God's promises, and Jesus has made promises through his life, through that ministry. If you read the Gospel of John, he has been walking towards the cross and walking towards the resurrection.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

In a sense, he's been walking through the cross right from the start.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Yeah. And T. Wright talks about the idea that the reconciliation of God to man, God to creation, isn't an end time scenario. Rather, we live in a work in progress. We live in the midst of that. And in a Venn diagram context, overlapping circles, when we recognize that and say, this is what I'm a part of now, as a person who is on in God's agenda and doing what God wants, I sit in that sliver where it overlaps. Ultimately, what God wants to do is have those two circles come over each other, that it becomes a single circle. That is the progress of, you know, uh in on earth as in heaven. That's what God is working towards. And we engage in that in the same way. So the idea that exactly as you said, from the get-go, back in the day, God made a promise. This is the resolution of one promise and the beginning of another promise.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

And it just, which is why it brings all of that old testament stuff into this fulcrum that then opens up into a whole new set of people.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

A really powerful line there of this is the start of a new promise. Like so because we we often read the scriptures as if they're time-locked back there, but we are now living in the promise of this life that Christ is offering in the resurrection. So, in a sense, the resurrection is not is not a time-locked thing of 2,000 years ago. Yeah. It is something that is alive for us today because we now live in the promise of the resurrection. Yeah. So we're living in in God's time.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

And I think it's that's a great, a great reflection on it, Richard. If if we are then serious about the way we want to live our lives as people who follow Jesus, then we're going to acknowledge that we daily live in the resurrection. Yes. And that becomes a motivating factor for how we engage in caring for people. Yeah and looking for those that need support or lifting up. Um, it it motivates us to be people who are known and seen by the way we love.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Yes. Yeah, yeah. I think Jesus actually says that, doesn't he? Somewhere that they will know that they are you will know. It might just be a song from the 70s, but I'm pretty sure it's a scriptural piece as well. Both. Yeah. We'll know that they are Christians by their love, like by the way we live. Look, we could talk about this for hours. Yes, but is there anything else that's significant or important that we should bring out in the in our podcast today that it because the resurrection, we could talk about this. Yeah, we do it every every podcast in a sense, but is there anything from today's resurrection story that we should still bring out before we conclude?

SPEAKER_01 29:02

I I think, Richard, that that what Easter offers us, not just in the practical sense, that these are two real easy touch points when the rest of society is drawn into a story that either they hold as heritage, have feelings about but can't quite articulate them, or are testing what that looks like, right? To be frank, very few at Christmas, you'll get lots of people that turn up because they want to keep Great Auntie Joan or Mum or Dad or someone happy. Yeah. Because we're visiting them for Christmas and they go to church and tradition, right? Yes. The Good Friday, Easter Holy Week stuff, particularly Easter Sunday, I'm gonna offer is less tradition than it is people actually going. I cannot articulate what it is I'm feeling. Yeah, but I know I need to connect to this. It's the touch point of faith.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Yeah. One of the things that I think is incredibly important about the Easter story is that we go through it. Like one of the reasons it is such a joyous day on the resurrection is because we've gone through Thursday and Friday. And they are really like Good Friday is a hard service because you just want to jump to hope. Yep. But you can't. Oh, even though we know the end, yep, you know, like if I go back and re-watch the Lord of the Rings movies, please, Friday's gonna win. Yeah, yeah. But I shouldn't go straight there to the the state, you know, like with the story, we need to sit in the story of the street. Don't start at the return of the king. We've got to start at where the fellowship forms, right? And that's right. And with the and with the Easter story, we start in Thursday night where where Jesus is sitting there with his disciples having a meal. We step through where he is betrayed, where he is put on trial, and and where the where the injustice of that trial and the the injustice of the crucifixion, yeah. We have to sit in those horrible moments so that when we come to the power of the resurrection, it is truly powerful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

It's really this might sound glib, but it's really easy for us who aren't sitting in the daily mess of life or the trauma of some incredibly horrible thing that may be happening in or around them to go, we need to sit in the painful moments. Yeah, we need to let that happen. We will all have been through painful moments in our life, so we can remember what that feels like. But the importance of Friday, like you say, is to not rush. Yes. It's and and here's my here's my other quick beef. I love consuming, particularly the TV news. I am always intrigued to see how the journalist who has been given the job of do a roundup of the Easter services, do a roundup of the Good Friday service. Yes, they could do some bad ones. Where they go and they'll, you know, they'll get the grab from um, you know, Sydney Anglican minister in the cathedral. Here's a grab of my Good Friday, here's a grab from the Catholic priest, here's a grab from generally it's Stu from Wesley Mission. Yeah. Um, your song will normally get a Guernsey. Well, well, less so the past few years, but oops. Yeah. Um, but you know, you've got all these people in robes and dresses and scarves, and occasionally a person in a suit, and then Stu. Um, and all of that happens, and the bits they choose from that. Now, I know, for example, this priest, uh, and not suggesting he was Catholic, but whoever this was, they were certainly in, you know, the proper robes and stuff, and they were talking about the Good Friday thing, to him how horrible Good Friday was, and it was, you know, horrendous and painful. Like, I don't want to see him jaded, Richard, but yes, that's the point of why that happened. That doesn't mean we need to sit on that and go, oh yeah, it was really painful, we should heat burning hot coals in ourselves. He may not have intended that, right? Because we got the 10-second bill. Yeah, we got the and they could have cut it from anywhere in that talk. Exactly. I I I I struggle with, and this is not you, I struggle with the ministry people or the preachers that do lean heavily into the it's painful, and that's our pain, and and like we caused this, and but like, yeah, we did, and yes, we should remember and absolutely acknowledge that incident is happening by God's design for us to be able to reconcile personally with God. Yeah, while we acknowledge it was horrendous and horrific and terrifying, I think if we're gonna talk in 2026 about that event, we can absolutely talk in 2026 horror territory. Like we can express what is happening to Jesus in the context of the crucifixion as terrible, yeah. Just as terrible as the mother that's living in a car with any number of children, or even just by herself because of horrendous domestic violence, yeah, or what's happening in Iran, or like list it, right? List all of the horrors that are happening, and all of those horrendous things are exactly the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

That is what Christ died for. All of this. Yeah. And and one of the things that I like to conclude that Good Friday story with is walk towards the light. Like in a sense, we walk with this kind of pain that is there, and we walk towards the light of Easter Sunday, not celebrating Sunday on Friday, but walking towards it, holding holding the pain of the homeless person, holding the pain of the woman that has struggled or been beaten, holding the pain of a man that is, you know, struggling, struggling in a separation. All of those things, we carry that with us towards the cross, towards the light. We're walking towards the hope of the resurrection, and it is in this day, the resurrection day, that we can then say doesn't mean that all that pain is gone. No. But in Christ, we are held and lifted up in this moment.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Amen, brother. Like Tony Campolo, God rest his soul, and I know he is in glory now, is has that marvelous, you know, it's Friday but Sunday's coming story that he tells about he went to a black church, and you know, that was the message that was shared. And and if you've never heard it, dig it out, friends, because it's like 45 minutes of great.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

Very good songs.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

Both written and you'll find it preached.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Yeah, just find it and enjoy the heck out of it. And in it, it absolutely acknowledges in all of this, it is about walking to the light. It is acknowledging that all of this is a journey, it is not a light switch moment. We don't go from Good Friday to Easter Sunday like we would turn the light on in our house. It absolutely is a process because exactly as you lent into, Richard, we have to remember that when we get to the light, the pain and the consequence of the darkness is still to be redealt with.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

Yeah, it's still there, but but Christ carries us in the light. Like that that's what we're on about here.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

The difference is because of Jesus, we are seen and we are known and we are deeply loved. Yeah, that's what gets us through.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

By the creator of the universe. Yes, you know, yes, my mum sees me, knows me, and deeply loves me, but God, the creator of all, sees me, knows me, and deeply loves me.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

That is transformational. That is the centre of this piece. Yeah, this is what turns a hole in the ground into an empty tomb.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Yeah. Yep. Look, we could go on for a lot, lot longer, but we probably shouldn't finish it. It's Friday, but Sunday's coming, Richard. He's on. Um, guys, just a couple of things about what's happening in the life of our church. So over the next week and a half, we are basically preparing for Holiday Kids Club that's coming on the last Friday of the holidays. If you haven't signed up, get onto it. If you've got young people, because that fills up way quick, it fills up big time and it's a fantastic event, which is why it fills up. Yeah, yeah. It's very good. We, you know, 80 to 100 kids, and they just have a wonderful time. Yeah, amazing. Um, so that's on, and really from here we'll probably start gearing up to some other things. I know there's other stuff coming, but I've been gearing up for Easter and I haven't been thinking, Bill.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

When you get past Easter, and then when we get past Kids Club, because the holidays really piggyback off this for anyone with little people, um, it's a bit autopilot for two weeks, right? But then in church life, we go straight into repair cafe and then even quick more quickly into church camp. Yeah, church camp's on its way, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Yeah, yeah. All of that stuff. Actually, I was talking to Carissa Soorley um this week about church camp. And so we're we're looking at the theme that we're going with, and and she's going to be talking a bit about spiritual renewal at the church camp. Fancy that, between resurrection and Pentecost. Yes. Who would have thought that's where we land? It's a good one. So we've got that coming up. Um, everyone, it has been fantastic to speak with you all and to spend some time talking about the Easter story. And Malk, thank you so much for sharing some of your wisdom and your enthusiasm and insights on Easter Sunday. I think we can dial back the wisdom.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

Enthusiasm plenty, insights tons, none of it helpedful.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Oh no, no, I know I quite like that. You got me going there a couple of times. I was very intrigued. Come on. Yeah. Um, so everyone, thank you so much for listening and joining into the TUC Talks. Um, by the way, share this with some people you know. Sort of encourage a few other people in the life of the church or, you know, vague acquaintances to pick up the podcast and listen because yeah, we want to actually help people continue to grow from the worship service on a Sunday and to think a little bit deeper about the Bible passage.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

And this is a great like episode to be able to share with people for exactly the reason we spoke about, right? It's a touch point where we're all aware of Easter. We know this story. Yep. Let's hear two old white men talk about what they think about.

SPEAKER_00 39:24

And I don't know, I think I've got a lady with me next week. Oh, even better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is she old? I'm trying to remember who it is. Okay. I think uh should be good. Is it Patty? I don't hear. Patty's not old. No, no, she's not. No. Um, anyway, thank you so much for listening, and we will talk to you another time. God bless. Bye.