Jesus appears to Thomas

Terrigal Uniting's Youth worker Nick Morrow chats to Rev Lorna Martin about this weeks reading from John, Jesus appearing to a doubting Thomas.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

All right, welcome back everyone to TUC Talks. I'm Nick Morrow. I'm the youth worker here at Terigal, and I'm joined by the amazing Reverend Lorna Martin. How are you today, Lorna?

SPEAKER_01 0:19

I'm doing very well, Nick. It's a was a beautiful day, a bit cool, but it's beautiful outside. How about you? How was your day been?

SPEAKER_00 0:25

It's been beautiful here in Sydney too. Um, yeah, really, really nice. Loved it. Uh nice and cool but sunny at the same time. Yeah. Splendor. Amazing. Um Lorna, it's kind of a special one today where we have two people who aren't Richard who both preached yesterday and are both talking about their own experiences. I don't think that's happened on this podcast before.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Um, I think only once when Richard had another holiday at one point, and I think he did it with Monk and uh Dennis Towner. This is the second time that this is happening, yes, because Christmas or something there. Just after Christmas, I think they did one. So people can forgive us if we uh haven't hit the right buttons.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Yep, it's a very special episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

It is, it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Well, Lorna, do you want to tell us um the story that we're going to be recounting today that we both preached on yesterday?

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Hey, we we we've been journeying through the Gospel of John. Richard, we've been doing that since Christmas. And you and I both had the end of the Gospel of John, or the original ending of it. And it started with Jesus appearing on that first Easter Sunday in the evening with the disciples in their locked room and him saying, Peace be with you. And then he commissioned them to go as Father has sent me, I send you. He breathed the Holy Spirit on them then. It wasn't later on, as we are used to. And he told them, Yeah, to go. And they forgive sins. If you forgive them, they're forgiven. If you don't, they're not. Uh perhaps we can chat about that a bit. Um, it then went on to his second appearance the next Sunday. Again, they were in the locker room. This time Thomas was there because he was missing the first time, and he wanted to see Jesus' hands, the wounds, put his hands in them and in his side. And when he did that, then he would believe. Not until Jesus appears and again says, Peace be with you. And Thomas, yeah, doesn't need to put his hands in those places in those wounds. He does believe, and he actually says, My Lord and my God, which is from what I my research, it's the first time that was ever done. And then John ends the whole reading at that point saying, All of these signs have been put there. There were many more, but these report that you may know Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, God. Yeah. So that's kind of it in a quick nutshell.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Beautiful. I agree with that. I agree with that, and I love this passage. I think this is this is one of my favorite parts in the whole gospel, gospel of John. I think it was something I was saying in my um in my sermon. I think that Thomas might be my favorite apostle, and there's something so relatable about his need for evidence. And one of the things that I was saying in in my sermon was, I feel terrible for how we treat him in the church and how we don't call this the story of Jesus appearing to the ten disciples and then appearing to Thomas. What do we call it? The story of doubting Thomas.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Doubting Thomas, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

And we call people doubting Thomas.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Doubting Thomas's, sadly.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

If they if they ever dare to ask for a little bit more evidence or a little bit more persuasion on something, which is almost like an anti-intellectual thing to do. Um it is, yeah. Yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Um But but Thomas is only really spoken about in the Gospel of John. Right. He and the first real time that there's anything about him, which was in John, was a few weeks ago, where Jesus finally says, Look, I need to turn my head to Jerusalem. And the disciples are trying to say, Oh no, no, no, no, you can't go there. And he's brave.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

He's brave. He tells them we've got to do let's go with them. Yeah, he's not afraid of death. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

We forget about that and focus on the negative, which we tend to do with people.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

We focus on the little thing or whatever it is that they've done wrong or don't get right, and we overlook all the goodness in people. And I mean, that's what that's what's come out of this for me. Not that I said that, but yeah, that's come out of this for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Yeah, awesome. Well, we might get into it. Warno, um, when you were writing your sermon, what was really standing out to you? What were the key themes that you were working with?

SPEAKER_01 4:51

I I was conscious that this is a passage that I've spoken on in my ministry, because and then many, many years I've been in ministry. And because I've normally used the Revised Common Lectionary, this is the gospel reading that's set this first Sunday after Easter, like the second Sunday of Easter, every year. Doesn't matter what cycle you're in.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Divine Mercy Sunday. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

So it's something that I've preached a number of times, but usually I do focus on the doubts and Thomas. And this time I realized, hey, what about the beginning? What about the section where Jesus appears the first time? And so that's really where I tried to focus a little more without forgetting about Thomas, if that makes sense. Yeah. So I tried to do a bit more on the beginning, which incorporated Thomas, but it's Jesus was doing something amazing then. And it wasn't just about Thomas believing in the end, it was what he was doing with all of his disciples. He commissioned them to go. And so that's kind of where I focused in the end. Um saying it's okay to have doubts, questions, they're they're they're helpful. Yeah. But there's so much more for us to do. What about you? What did you focus on as you reflected on this passage?

SPEAKER_00 6:12

So I was doing some really interesting research. Um, and I was sort of thinking about why Thomas would have doubted in this instance. And I think that there's a temptation to frame Thomas as like kind of this rationalist skeptic who doesn't think that you know miracles can happen. And I don't think that that's the right way to read it because Thomas was a disciple more than he was a doubter or anything. He saw miracles happen, he knew that Jesus could do amazing things, and I did some really interesting research on the ancient world and the way that miracles were thought of. And um, I was doing some reading with this guy called Umcelsus, who was a Greek philosopher, and he he did this sort of takedown of Christianity in about 100 AD. Um and one of the things that he was saying, like one of his biggest objections to Christianity, was he was like, you know, magic isn't a big deal. You know, Jesus was Jesus was raised in Egypt. Everyone in Egypt can do sorcery and stuff, like it just wasn't a problem. Um, and his objection was magic just doesn't mean that you're divine, it doesn't mean that you're the son of God. It's a common thing in the ancient world. And I think that there was really no reason that Thomas ever would have doubted that a person could be resurrected. He saw Lazarus come back from the dead. Exactly, exactly. I think I think that what Thomas is doubting is Jesus' motive. Why would he choose to do that? Like we've got to remember we're talking about Greco-Roman Jews. These are people um who would have been influenced by you know Greek philosophy and this idea that the body was actually something to be escaped, and it was it was death was a release, and there was something kind of profane and disgusting about like wanting to stay in your body, wanting to come back, wanting to have your wounds, wanting to have um flesh. And I think that that's probably a big part of what Thomas found really hard to understand. But what I love is that you know, nothing that Jesus does, like none of the miraculous elements of this story um are anything like what we see earlier in the New Testament, where Jesus is sort of evangelizing, he's healing, he's feeding, he's really helping people in this very tangible material way. But this miracle that he does here, it's a sign, and it's a sign of love, and he brings peace and he brings a message to these disciples who he knows are struggling, probably traumatized, grieving.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Well, they're they're in hiding, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:52

They're they're in the they would have no idea what was next for them, um, probably no idea where to go, where the next meal was going to come from. And I love that Christ comes to bring love and to say, I am here, peace be with you.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Um and I think And he starts with that.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

He starts with that.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

He starts with calming their fears. You still have them and they don't know yet what's gonna happen. Yeah, but it's gonna be okay. Basically, peace means it's gonna be okay. Yeah, it's a greeting, a personal greeting to you.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Yeah. And and I think that that's so different from so many of the other miracles that we've seen. And I think that that's where Thomas's doubt is maybe coming from that there could be someone this good, and there could be someone that loved this hard and this powerfully. That's sort of how I see the doubt um manifesting in him. We also like it, it's it's so funny, right? Thomas was coincidentally not there when Jesus appeared to the other disciples, and so we're like, oh Thomas, he's such a doubter. But really, if any of the disciples had been absent, it you know, it might have been doubting Peter, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

And and how many of them weren't having doubts, right? They aren't expressing them as well, you know. I mean, yes, because they had Peter and the one Jesus loved, had run into the tomb, gone to the tomb and run in. They hadn't seen him. Yeah, only Mary had seen him, and she had spoken to him, but they only saw the grave close and realized, oh, yes, okay. So now we're understanding, but I don't think they did fully understand at that point what was going on. And it's only here where Jesus comes back to say, This is what it's all about, this is what I want you to do now. You've got everything you need. Go. And with Thomas not being there, I mean, we don't know why he wasn't there, but I'm wondering whether part of the second component of that of the whole passage is we have to be within the community sometimes in order for us to have our faith strengthened.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

If we are in isolation, it's I mean, I know I hear people say, Look, I'm a Christian, but I don't go to church. I play on the golf course, that's where my God is. Yeah. And I say, oh, that's fine. But it's when we're with others that we're nurtured and we grow and have a better understanding of our faith.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

So maybe, maybe a comment or a suggestion that Jesus was maybe hinting at or John is hinting at, really, is that you really need to have the connection with the community. You need to be in the community of believers. Yeah, doubts can be aligned. I I just that's just something I read somewhere in my research. I didn't say that yesterday, but yes, it's just something I I came across and thought, ah, now that's true. Yeah, kind of how do you go it alone? Was he going it alone or was he caught up in a family matter, or who knows? Who knows where he was?

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Maybe maybe he was off praying, right? We don't know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So and and interestingly, nobody was concerned about where it was.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Right, true, true. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Yeah. So yeah, which again, if somebody's missing from the group, do we bother checking in? You know, but at least when he was with them, they did tell him what had happened, yeah, how excited they were that.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

But oh, I don't know about that. You know, one of the things that I think really ties in with that that I talked about on the weekend was that like we we read this story and we think, you know, Thomas, he couldn't just trust his friends and he couldn't just trust the word that he'd heard, um, he didn't have faith. But most people aren't converts to Christianity because they read the Bible and thought, oh, this is clearly true, right? Um, most people become Christians because they've encountered Jesus in some way, like Thomas did.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Exactly, exactly. And whether it's in that way, or there's just the connection, the the link comes in, it's just so strong that yes, I mean it's you for me. I have a real relationship with God for Jesus, and to explain that to somebody else is really tricky. How can you prove it? Well, yes, but no. Yeah, yeah, but yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

And I I mean I think that this is maybe the story that first introduces us to the idea of a personal relationship with Jesus after Jesus has died, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Exactly, exactly. We move on from the the face-to-face to it's more than that, yeah. And it will be with you. I'm sending you to go. Uh my spirit will be with you. Not Jesus never said, Here we go. My spirit, I breathe my spirit on you to go with you, and and we all have access to that spirit. And I don't know about you, but there have been different times when I have been very much overwhelmed with that sense of the spirit with me, and I can't explain it. Absolutely. And there are other times when I think, well, I know the spirit's here, but yeah, I might have to go looking a bit for meaning because I'm probably not a two as much or needing as much assurance. As Thomas needed that assurance, as did the disciples, all of them needed the assurance from Jesus. Yep, yep. Yeah, yeah. So within it, I think um part of the whole lecture too, with with John saying that this is all you need. I think it's exciting that in this these last two kind of little sections for that for his gospel, that he focuses on the spirit as well and doesn't leave it just with a commission, has a commission for us to go. Jesus is alive, it's real. You have a commission, you don't go alone, the spirit's with you.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

And that's what's going to sustain you. And and someone yesterday after uh the second service was telling me that Thomas actually um started some of the brought the the faith, the Christianity to India.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

In India, yeah. And I think he's considered like the patron patron saint of India.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Um I mean, so from what he did here to what he went on to do, he seriously, what Jesus had said. Yeah, off he went, you know? Yeah, that was oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

So amazing.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

So to say he's just doubting Thomas, and that's how we remember him.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

I mean, if we say Peter, we say, Oh, Peter was the rock. But Peter is the one who who denies, yeah. We don't focus on Peter.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Denying Peter, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Yeah, exactly. It's but yeah, with Tom, poor Thomas.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Poor Thomas, right? I love your point about um the spirit and the focus on the spirit in this passage. And one of the things that I think is so great about reading the New Testament, the way that we've arranged it, is if you're reading it con chronologically, you go from this passage to the next passage into the book of Acts. And I think that's such an amazing way to um finish the Gospels and then go into seeing it in the world, right? Go and do it. It's incredible. It's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

The fact that in Acts we have the actual Pentecost happening and things, and the ascension happening there, but but here it's kind of all together, and we get the whole picture of what's going to happen next, and it and it does in the readings from the rest of the scriptures, yeah, in the New Testament. Yeah, yeah. Uh the other thing I'm I'm aware of as are, and as I did my research, were the wounds.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

And something I read and and it stayed with me, and I went looking. Have you ever seen a picture of the risen Jesus without the wounds, at least in his hands and feet?

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Yeah, I don't think.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

We don't usually see his side. No, no, it's always pictured with them. And stigmato some of the reading I had, it was because the wounds signify or or help us remember that it is the risen Jesus, but he didn't, it wasn't the same.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Yes, yep.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

It wasn't like Lazarus, we assume, came back completely in his resurrected form. Jesus didn't.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

In coming back, those wounds signify that, hey, I have suffered, I have suffered for you, and I continue to bear the scars. It's not something that's um I I was given some cream once by a chemist because of a uh uh stitches I had to have, and they said, Oh, here's some cream once that heals you rub it, and it has, it's faded the scar. There's a slight one there, but Jesus' wounds are always still right in your face, kind of thing, yeah, very visible, and they don't fade.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

No.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

So those scars were there for us, not just for them.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

And that sense of we can do we we still have that.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

I also I also think that there's something so interesting about the way it's very explicitly a bodily resurrection of the real flesh. I think it's in Luke where um the apostles think that it's a specter or a ghost until until they see a wound. And I think that that probably says something about the um the supernatural mindset at the time. You know, ghosts will be assumed to have come back sort of unharmed and be transparent or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

But through doors and whatnot.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's come back in the flesh.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

That's right. And as they buried him, as they buried him. Yep. He's back as they buried him.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

That's right. So I and I means can can signify that that aligning that people who have suffered, they'll say to you, Oh, well, you've never suffered, so what would you know? And well, we've all suffered a little bit, but perhaps you know, if you're in the midst of Afghanistan or or Gaza or something at the moment, you'll be thinking, oh sure, no. Nick and Lorna, have you really experienced anything like this? I haven't. Sure. And but Jesus has. Jesus has. He's had the mob after he has been killed in that.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

And so he can, there is something of God for people who are suffering, even in the midst of their suffering. The peace of God can be there for you. Doesn't mean it's going to change everything, but it can give you that peace within that allows you to endure. And sometimes what we need to do is just endure and come out the other side, one way or another. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Absolutely. I love that. It's so hard to remember, you know, like pain is something that every human being has in common, but it's so hard to remember that our wounds are Christ's wounds. No matter how who we are, no matter how little our wounds are, no matter how big our wounds are. Um, there's a temptation, I think, like you're saying, to be like, you know, I'm like a middle class person who lives in a you know very functioning society. Um uh, what is my suffering? But my suffering is Christ's suffering. And also the people who have gone through the most unbelievable traumas and the most atrocious wars and um the most unbearable pain, their suffering is Christ's suffering too. We are all Christ's body.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

That's right, that's right. And and we are that, and as Jesus sent them out, they weren't to repeat just what he said indeed, although that's how we share his story. Yeah, it we were to be the body of Christ, the hands of Christ, the feet of Christ, the voice of Christ. So while Jesus encouraged uh the woman at the well, we're meant to be encouraging the women at the well, not saying, well, Jesus would encourage you. No, we are the voice, we are the hands that will lift up as the Good Samaritan, the somebody who's wounded and unwell, and care for them and nurture them and respond to them, regardless of who they are. And yeah, that's a tough one. That's a tough one.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Lorna, I'm sure you're familiar with the book Um The Wounded Healer by Henry Nowen. Um which talks about ministry and how we use our own pain and our own suffering and our own um traumas to um be Christ-like and to relate to others. And I almost feel like where Thomas knew Jesus because of his wounds, other people might know Jesus because of our wounds. We are the body of Christ, and and we can we can display Christ's wounds um by bearing our own pain and sharing it with others.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

That's right. And by seeing the wounds of others, seeing Christ in them as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Of course.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Do you know what I mean? It it's it's Jesus said to go, but there was forgive sins or don't forgive sins within that. But it's the people, they are people.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

And just as you are people with me, Jesus sang, so are these people that I'm sending you to. So yeah, if there are people that are yeah, absolutely gonna be horrible people and never will be. You don't forgive their sins. If people aren't serious about changing their life, and there's not much we can do about anyone that way. We still love them, but it doesn't mean we will forgive what they've done because they're not willing to change habit, a bad habit, we'll say. But I want to change and I need help to change. And people do.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Yeah. And I I will say on that as well, like um, there are people that we maybe see as um horrible and like you say, maybe unforgivable, who've done really, really terrible things. But like you're like you were saying before, if we can get to know them and if we can get to understand their pain, because all people do have pain, we can understand them and we can see Christ in them. And that doesn't mean that we say it's all fine, you are forgiven just because you're traumatized or anything like that. But we but we do get to understand them a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

That's right, that's right. We can understand them and if they're willing, can walk the journey with them to change and overcome anything that is destructive.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

So that forgiveness can be realistic for them. But yeah, if it if it's someone who's abusing someone in a domestic violence situation, if they continue to do that, say, oh, I'm sorry, I won't do it again, and they do it again the next day, the next day. Um, yeah, they need help, they need concern, they need support. But as everyone will say, if they're not willing to start that journey themselves, it will never happen. No, no, it just won't happen. So, yeah, so families can forgive, forgive, forgive, but it doesn't mean you stay in the abuse. So forgive or not. If you're not, then move out of it, move out of it.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

And that's that's how a healthy community or a healthy society operates, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

And again, we have to come back to we need to be in the community for it to happen. We can't be isolated and alone. So again, there's all these little nuances coming into that thing as we think about it, which you we overlook. I overlook a lot in this reading. Just there's so much in it. And I was thinking, gosh, how did I miss that before?

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Yeah, I mean, just talking to you and hearing some of the things that you're saying. I mean, it's it's one of the amazing things about uh uh the lectionary and preaching as a concept and exegesis is that everyone comes at it a little bit differently. And I love listening to these TUC talks podcasts because everyone has a little bit of a different take on things.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

And and we all hear things a little differently, but it all comes and gives us a new insight into it. I mean, as I say, I've I've read this scripture passage every year for years and years and years and years, and have preached on it for years and years and years and years, and heard sermons preached on it, and I still found something new in it. Yeah, and and so hearing others share, I think, oh I had forgotten about that, or yes, that's new to me. And those are the things that need to help us grow in our own faith. That's what helps us. Any, I mean, I I have to say, I I often have doubts about what's happening and what I'm doing, and is God really in the midst of this? I I do doubt, believe God is there, but yeah, and I have faith, but I I do doubt, like Thomas. You know, I want to see a bit more, and something will happen to let me see. Yeah, I mean I see Jesus appearing in the flesh before me, but something will happen for me to see, yep, God is here, God is here, absolutely. That's amazing. Um, Sue Scott is um she often posts photos that she takes as she walks in different places, especially around the village here where we live. And it's a beautiful garden, beautiful, beautiful setting here. And she found a Chrysalis the other day and posted it, and it was it's just magical, so tiny, but yet so perfect, and it's new life in there, which the Easter story is all about, and you know, the the death coming into the new life and that. And it's just it's magic. Yeah, it's a sign that God is there in the midst of all of things happening around us. God is still there, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

So why do you don't? Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Okay, God, I get it. We might end on one piece of trivia that I found in my research this week that I thought was so unbelievable. So I was looking into um just in um in verse 24 where it says, Now Thomas called the twin one of the twelve. And I was thinking, what does that mean, the twin? Um, it's clearly a nickname for him of some sort. And you know, in the Syrian Orthodox Church, um, they actually think he was the twin brother of Jesus. A lot of traditions think that he might have been the brother of another apostle. But one thing that I love is um origin of Alexandria, one of my favorite church fathers, um uh one of my favorite theologians, he says Thomas is the twin because he's the twin of every believer. We've all been Thomas in this story, and I I love that.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

I like that. I like that, yes, yes. He's been like all of them. Yeah, it's been like he like me, uh everybody is like, I like that. Yeah, I I don't know the the background of the twin analogy for him, but I like that that illustration. It's brilliant, yes, uh, and and a good way to end, as you say, because yeah, we're all Thomas.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

We're all Thomas, and it's probably not what John meant, but it's a beautiful interpretation. Beautiful interpretation, yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

But he went on to do amazing things, yeah, yeah. Amazing things, as we've said. So, and we each can do that, and I think that's the thing. You know, Jesus sends all of us out. Yeah, he didn't just send one or two of them, he sent them all and breathed the spirit on all of them, as we too receive that spirit, and then it's what we do with it, and that's the key. That's the key for us. Where do you go with it? Where do you go with your questions, your doubts, your deep faith, knowing it's still real and true? Do we stay in the locked room? And Jesus was saying, No, don't stay here. You need to look you need to go outside. It will be dangerous. Yes, he didn't say it wouldn't be, but go. I want you to go and take this to everybody.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

And we still have work to do to do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

That's amazing. Thank you, Walner.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Yeah, thank you. Now, though we perhaps need to remind people as they listen to this that they should be signing up for church camp first weekend of May, so that they get their spots booked in, whether it's a campsite or uh in tents or caravans or the uh upgraded accommodation into motels they might find there.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

You can go quite fancy, yep.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

Yep. I unfortunately can't make it that weekend, but um I know it's gonna be an exciting time. And we have kids club coming up on Saturday or on Friday.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

On the Friday, Friday the 17th. We've got Kids Holiday Club, yep.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Yes, and if nothing else, we need people praying, praying for us, uh, for those who'll be leading and facilitating some of the various activities, and for all the children, that they too might be touched in some way by God and just have that sense as Thomas realized, yeah, God's there. Yeah, yeah. So any other things happening that we need to remind people of at this point?

SPEAKER_00 29:35

You know, nothing coming up, but I do want to say um we spent the last week, me and my youth kids, at a camp called Soul Survivor in the Northern Beaches. It went really, really well. Um, it was an interesting mixture of um a few kids who have been there before, love the worship, all of that stuff, and a few kids who have never experienced worship before. And wow, it was a really amazing experience. And um, I'm not gonna embarrass anybody or name names, but some of my kids were really, really moved. There were some tears, um, and and everyone was praying for each other. It was a really, really beautiful thing. It was great.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

And that means that you've been all drawn closer together.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

Just as the disciples pulled together with their experience and in that room, uh just it remains with them for the rest of their life.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

There's nothing like living in community, even if it's for a few days or a week, it just changes your relationship with paper.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Changes your whole relationship with paper, yeah, absolutely, which is brilliant to do.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Exciting. So well, I hope you have a good the rest of the week uh with your studies and everything else that you're doing. Are you you're on school, you're on break.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

I'm on mid-semester break, which is great.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Um you can do a few things that you want to do, maybe, or do sort of assignments to finish.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

I've got assignments to finish, but that's okay. That's okay. Yep. That's good. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Yeah, no, it's good. Okay. Well, thanks, Nick, for doing this and recording it. And we hope that everyone gets some new insight into what happened at the end of the Gospel of John that we've now concluded, and we'll move on to other aspects of the New Testament next week with Richard.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Thank you, everybody, for listening. See you at church.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

Yes, bye for now.