The Conversion of Saul

This week is joined by Rev Richard Harris is joined by Phil Rogers to chat this week's reading - Acts 9:1-19 - the conversion of Saul

# Terrigal #church #reading #bible

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:08

G'day everyone. It is TUC Talks ready for the week. Isn't it great that name? I love it. Um TUC Talks, we uh the podcast from Terregal Uniting Church, and we talk about a reflection on the sermon from Sunday. So it's a bit of a conversation about where we've gone from the sermon on Sunday, and this Sunday was Sunday, the 19th of April. And the Bible reading that we had on Sunday was Acts 9, 1 to 19. I'll talk about that in a second, but to first to introduce our guest today, Phil Rogers is with us for the conversation. Hi, Richard. Hi, everybody. It is excellent to have you here, Phil. Acts 19. Sorry, Acts 9, 1 to 19, it's actually the conversion of Saul or the road to Damascus. And what it is, it's I'll give a brief overview because I've realized I probably should do a brief overview of the Bible passage before I start talking about it. It starts off with young Saul going to the high priest in Jerusalem and getting a letter of introduction to the synagogues in the outlying diaspora of the Jewish people. And one of those places was Emmaus. And so, oh no, Damascus. I was on a road to Emmaus another time. Was Damascus. And so Saul is going to Damascus to actually arrest the Christians there. And on his way, he actually he meets the risen Christ. He has this blinding flash of light and a voice, and then he goes in, and then a young bloke from from that community comes and prays for him, and his name is Ananias, and Paul is healed, and that is his conversion to Christianity. Did I miss anything, Phil?

SPEAKER_01 2:14

No, I think that's that's it in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_03 2:17

Yep. So what did you think about the the story of of Paul's conversion?

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Um it's one of those stories that we're so familiar with that sometimes we we don't dig deeply enough, I don't think. I think you're right. Which is oh, I know that story. I'll just have a little snooze while Richard preaches.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

Yeah, well I saw a couple of those on Sunday, I'm sure. Yeah, for me, it's a really interesting one when you start to scratch the surface. Because for me, I actually don't think Paul is converted here. I think he's transformed, but in a sense, he is a person that already believes in God. Yes. Um but he believes in God so passionately and he wants to actually live out his mission, but he's wrong.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Yeah. What what struck me was that um reading the passage afresh, knowing that I was coming here this morning, I thought I would read it and sort of dig a little bit deeper, was that he wasn't looking for transformation, was he? He wasn't he wasn't searching for meaning. He he was convinced he was right. If you had asked him, you know, how's it going, Paul? He'd have probably said, or Saul, how's it going, Saul? He would have probably said, Oh yeah, life's okay, everything's good. Um and it seems to me that sometimes these are moments of transformation that we have, they come so unexpectedly out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_03 3:47

I actually think not only would he have said, Oh, I'm fine, he was belligerent, is the word, really. He was so dogged in his belief of what was truth that he was prepared to go and arrest people. Um, I mentioned it on Sunday that you can see in his formation, like at the stoning of Stephen, young Paul is the person where everyone sticks the cloaks at his feet while they go and throw the rocks to kill Saul, like to kill Stephen. So Saul has been formed with this understanding that these Christians are so terrible that we should remove them by death.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Yeah. Oh, he was convinced he was right, a hundred percent convinced that he was right. But he changed a thing because something came in and interrupted his life, not so much a transformation, but an interruption. And I think that happens with so many people. Um, a crisis comes along, it might be a medical crisis, and they find themselves in the waiting room outside the intensive care unit, maybe a breakdown of relationships, it might be a financial thing, they they lose their job, it could be any of a myriad of things, but something comes along out of the blue and just interrupts them and shakes the very core and foundation of everything they've believed in. Yeah. And I think it's those moments that we perhaps don't think of as um rota Damascus moments, but they are, I think.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

And I actually think that as Christians we need to have these moments again and again and again, otherwise like because if God wants to reveal new things to us or change us, we need to be open to God changing us. So often, I think, Christians, we we become so set in our ideas that we're not prepared to be open to God teaching us something new.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Yeah. I mean that happened, didn't it, with Peter and Cornelius? Yes. Uh Peter was so convinced that he couldn't eat any of this food, um, so convinced that I think it took three sort of three um messages from God to convince him otherwise.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

Yeah, and and actually Paul is cut from that same cloth. He is because he was a Pharisee. So he was a Pharisee, which means he would have been very rigid on the rules. And and for him, he becomes the sort of missionary to the the non-Jewish people, and to do so, he actually has to really reshape his understanding of what it is to be pious, what it is to be right and godly.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

The other thing that occurred to me that God and Jesus, from examples in the New Testament, he is really good, really good at looking through the external stuff that we've clothed ourselves in. It might be hatred, it might be sort of um violence, it might be oppression, prejudice. Yeah, all those things that we clothe ourselves in, God sees through that and he sees through to the child of God that he intended you to be. Whereas I look at somebody and I very much I see the outside sort of external clothing that they have made for themselves. I'm not so good at looking past that into the child of God that Jesus and God see.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

Yeah. What I fully agree with you, but one of the things that I find fascinating about Paul is that he the character that he is that is prepared to get a letter to go and chase down these Christians in Damascus and all of that stuff, that same dogmatic, determined character is who he becomes when he's a Christian as well. He he's not he's not a gentle character.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

I think he sheds some of his external clothing. I think he sheds the um I'm going to use violence um in pursuit of my beliefs. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:02

He lets go of violence completely. Yeah. And I suppose that is a massive transformation. But he but he still holds a strength that you see in that first person.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

He's still convinced he's right, um, but his idea of what's right has been changed. Has been changed.

SPEAKER_03 8:24

And you're right, he does become a far less aggressive. I was about to say a far less aggressive, but he's actually quite aggressive with his opinions. Yeah. But he is not violent with his opinions.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

He's passionate, I think people would say.

SPEAKER_03 8:38

Yeah. W which is really interesting because that violence that he had when he was actually had that road to Damascus experience, um Ananias, the person who goes and prays with him, he had the real risk of going to actually pray for a man that he thought was out to get him.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

That was very brave of Ananias, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 9:05

Extremely.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Very, very brave. And as you said yesterday in the sermon, the first word he said to Saul stroke Paul was brother.

SPEAKER_03 9:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Which which is I'm amazed by him actually, because he takes Jesus' word so seriously that he actually is prepared to forgive Paul and invite Paul in as a brother. And he goes and baptizes him. He actually he baptizes him, claims claims him as a fellow Christian, as a brother in Christ.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Yeah. So Ananias is growing through this um experience, not as much as Paul, but he's still growing in his faith and his understanding.

SPEAKER_03 9:50

Yeah. I one of the things that I think is both of these characters have their worldview opened up so much.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Yeah. I did wonder why Ananias was even needed. I mean, God is God. Couldn't he have formed a perfect picture of the um of the Christian faith and how Paul was to act without any sort of human intervention?

SPEAKER_03 10:17

I I I I think that's a really good question. And my answer is actually I if if you look at the passage, when Jesus speaks to Paul on the road, the first thing that Jesus says, or the only thing really that Jesus says to Paul is Paul Paul or Saul Saul, why do you persecute me? So Jesus is actually aligning himself with Ananias and the other Christians. Yes. And so when Jesus says, Why are you persecuting me? He's aligning Jesus is aligning himself with Ananias and the other Christians that Paul has come to persecute. Yeah. Therefore, I think it is it's beholden on them to forgive Paul. In a sense, we are always forgiven by God. Yes, yes, but but there needs to be that human moment of transformation of seeing the grace of Christ come through Ananias.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Yeah. And there is the other if if Ananias had not been there and Paul had had a complete 100% conversion experience on the road, and he'd made his way to Jerusalem to the Christians there, without anybody that the Christians trusted to be introduced Paul to, they they would have been true, you know, they would have been so suspicious of him that he he would probably have found his ministry impossible. With with Ananias, Ananias was sort of like the bridge between what Paul was or who Paul is now and the church. If Ananias hadn't been there saying, look, I have had a message from God. Um I I understand from God that you're you know you are surprised, but believe me, God is in this, God has converted Paul. I introduce him to you, listen to what he says. If Ananias had not been there, I would they have listened to um Paul. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

Ananias is a person of incredible grace. Yeah. Um, because we actually don't know if Ananias knew Stephen or any of the other Christians that Paul has probably arrested and put into prison. Like, you know, he's probably he's looking at someone who has possibly could we don't know where Ananias fits in the faith story, no, but he most likely was someone that had either met Jesus or was converted with that crowd on the day of Pentecost. So he's probably one of the earlier followers. And if Paul has been persecuting the earlier followers, Ananias probably knew them.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Yeah. That is that is a tremendous step of faith, isn't it? And bravery.

SPEAKER_03 13:18

Yeah. And for me, it's one of those questions of me, how much grace do I have? Yeah. You know, I mentioned to you before we started recording, I saw on the news last night that man that was shot by a 15-year-old outside Parramatta police station. His son was being interviewed on the news because the inquiry had just gone through. And his son was saying, you know, what a terrible tragedy it was that his father had died. But at the same time, he was saying, and the other tragedy is that a young 15-year-old had was radicalized and given a gun who killed his father, and he said he really feels for the 15-year-old's family.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Yeah, I can understand that. That yeah, that resonates with me. But I also, and this is where for me it started me going down um a route, and I'm not sure I've reached a destination on this road here. You're down a rabbit hole here, I'm not sure. I'm down a rabbit hole, yeah, yeah. Because okay, I I understand what you say about that young 15-year-old, and yeah, we could all have some sympathy for the for him, but I'm thinking of the pol pots and the tyrants and oppressors of history, the 20th century ones, and I'm sure they'll be just as bad in a 21st century. These are adults, these are people who have um embarked upon genocide and things like that. Um I I find it hard to look past their external clothing to see the child of God within them.

SPEAKER_03 15:00

Ah, can God's grace convert someone like that? It is one of those interesting ones, isn't it? We always we pull the Hitler card on this. Can we have enough grace to accept someone? And I think the answer is I don't know if I can, yeah, but God's got enough grace to accept someone.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

A hundred percent. I think that's probably where I will end up on this road um with that particular view. But it is a hard one, isn't it? Yeah. Because I this is a it's so human, isn't it? When we have been wronged, and when we hear of wrongs on a sort of in, you know, a mind-boggling scale, you mentioned Hitler, but we could mention others as well. When we see the you know, the depths of depravity that we're sank to there, there is something within our human psyche that I'm afraid for me it's calling out for revenge and rather than forgiveness. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 16:01

I suppose one of the questions I have for us as Christians, we are meant to be able to forgive. Whether we can or not is another question. But I find it even more concerning when we get annoyed at another Christian who can forgive. Do you know what I mean? True. Like we get angry at someone who actually has enough grace to forgive Pol Pot.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

Um, and we and we get angry at them for for not holding a grudge. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

And coming back to Paul, um, he's introduced by Ananias to the uh Christian community in Jerusalem. Some of that Christian community would have had brothers, husbands, wives who have perhaps been murdered by Paul. Yeah. And the next time they make their way to Jerusalem, they see this violent murderer um being accepted within that community and being introduced as somebody that God is gonna work great deeds, uh, great things through. I wonder what their reaction was.

SPEAKER_03 17:08

It's a fascinating thought, isn't it? Like uh for me, the challenge is how far does God's grace go that I can actually express? Yeah, you know, it's not because we know what we know that God's grace is infinite.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

But how how much of God's grace can I accept and can I express? Yeah. And and and I think the challenge, like I was again mentioning the news article where that m that man was grieving for his father, but also grieving for the teenager. My daughter was actually sitting next to me and said, So, Dad, do you reckon you could actually feel for the 15-year-old if it if he'd shot me? Oh, and I thought I don't know, but I would hope and I would love to think that I possibly could, and I would love to think that you possibly could if someone had done that to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

I mean, there are examples. I remember I can't remember the names, maybe a bood, but there was a family where the two children, I think, were sort of killed by a road in a road traffic accident, and the Christian parents actually forgave the driver of that car. Yes. Um, yeah, that was in Western Sydney. That's right. So I know their examples, and whether I would have the grace to be able to do that, well, who would know unless we're in that situation. But I still think there is something within human nature that wants some payback. For example, I watched that film with Russell Crowe, Nuremberg last week. Um, and one of the objectives of putting the Nazi the remnants of it um on trial was wasn't revenge, it wasn't payback, but it was accountability and it was deterrence. And if there is no punishment, is that the right word? If there is no payback, where is the deterrence in that?

SPEAKER_03 19:09

But where is uh the question of grace is is an interesting challenge in that. Yes, but does grace come with payback?

SPEAKER_01 19:22

No, can they live together, Grace and Payback? I'm not sure they can. I don't think they can. No. I I don't I don't know. It's it gets awkward, doesn't it? It does, it does, it gets very awkward. Um, I did find a quotation, and you know, I had never heard of this person before, but he was on the ABC Religion and Ethics page. It's uh they were quoting him in. It was Miroslav Wolf, who's a modern day theologian, and he said, While forgiveness forgoes the payback of revenge, which is what you know I would be crying for, it still demands truth-telling and remembering uh rightly. He was saying that you don't erase the past, you don't ignore the harm, you tell the truth in all its ugly sort of honesty about what was done, you remember it honestly, but just not in a way that feels revenge or hatred. And I think that's the ideal that I would hope to work towards. But if I was um you know, uh if I was um a survivor of the um concentration camps and I saw Gehring and people like that on trial, could I have the grace to forgive them? If I was a victim of Paul's um oppression and violence, could I have the grace to forgive him? I know God does. And I I it's slightly contradictory because I want God to forgive me for all the stuff that I've done, and I'm not quite so happy about him forgiving others. Yep. I eat my cake and eat it here.

SPEAKER_03 21:00

But for us, if we look at Paul, if we can't forgive Paul, then we lose so much of the beautiful and powerful gospel stuff that he writes in the New Testament. In a sense, I suppose because we're so far away from Paul, we just look at this conversion story and go, oh, isn't it wonderful? Paul's transformed here. Great. And then, but the next step of that transformation is that he goes on to be an advocate for peace and justice and an advocate for holiness and Christ in some powerful ways. He writes some, you know, he writes something like about a third of the New Testament.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Yeah. And look, we don't know that he didn't get on his hands and knees in front of these people in Jerusalem and ask for forgiveness of what he had done. I'm sure he probably did, actually, because if he Saw some of these victims coming in, um, um, all the relatives of them. How could you not go up to them and say, you know, please forgive me? Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I just yeah, I want God's complete forgiveness for everything I do, but then I look at other people. It's that it's those clothes. God can see through all the the crust and filth of my external appearance and look at the child of God I was meant to be, and he can do that with Pol Pot, He can do that with Hitler, look through it and see the child of God that person was meant to be if they weren't enslaved to their sin in some way. Um, yeah. But me as a human, I don't necessarily want revenge, but I do want accountability and I do want there to be repercussions because I think that does serve as a as a deterrence of the future.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

Now, Phil, is this you as a human or you as a lawyer?

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Yeah, I find it hard to distinguish the two now. I've been doing it so long that they've sort of coalesced into each other. But I think no, I think justice is important, but I think man's justice is slightly different than God's justice.

SPEAKER_03 23:12

Yes. For us as a Christian, we need to probably lean into God's justice, don't we? And and so it's interesting because when we normally look at this story, the stuff that we've been discussing does not normally come out. No. Normally the story is is a story of of joy that a person is transformed.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

But that yeah, and it should be, it should be. Because, you know, I ten minutes ago ago, I was talking about these people who have these, you know, these crises in their lives. We we we look at those crises and say, you can turn away from whatever's happened in the past, the slate is wiped clean, your sins, your bad behaviors, you what you your old you were talking yet about identity. Your old identity is gone. Yes, you have a new identity in Jesus, and that's what we see from from now on. So I think that is really powerful, and I understand that. I just have it's a human thing, and I think it is humanity. Again, I was reading that revenge actually serves some sort of evolutionary need because going back, our ancestors, if they were being attacked by another tribe and they then sought revenge, other tribes would then not attack them. It was almost this is what we've got to do to survive. If we attack them, they know that they can't mess with us, we will hit back with force, and that protected them. That and if that hadn't been there, they would have been prey to all the surrounding tribes. But it's a human thing, not a god thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 25:03

Definitely, because because God God's grace is greater than than revenge.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

Yeah. And do you ever get to the point where you're looking at articles like this and you and and you think, God, I just don't know. But I know that you are God, and I know that you don't make mistakes, and I'm I'm happy with that, even though I can't work it out for myself.

SPEAKER_03 25:32

Yeah, there are times. Uh look, there are some some theological debates that we have in the life of the church, in the synod and the assembly, that we have some debates that I sort of scratch my head and go, I don't know. Yeah. But but God's grace is far greater than my judgment.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Yeah. One final point, I was talking about the Neureberg trials and the need for payback, but but the need first to be consequences so that it serves as deterrence. Um, I also then went on to read what happened in South Africa at the end of the partite regime, yeah, where they deliberately didn't put any of the leaders of apartheid on trial and seek revenge. They set up this truth around. Yeah, and people came before it who had been affected by it, um, and they testified very moving testimonies, given in the presence of these people who had done it, uh, so that they could see the consequences. And it seems to me that that probably was a more meaningful, more meaningful for the people involved to be able to say what their story was, what their experience was in the presence of somebody who did it. And then though there are examples there of those people actually, you know, having the shackles removed from their eyes or whatever, and realizing that they were wrong. It seems a better way.

SPEAKER_03 26:54

I think the truth if if we look at truth, sometimes we acknowledge our mistake and our sin. Like if in a sense, if for Paul, with with Christ saying, Paul, you know, Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? I wonder if that was for Saul a realization, I don't want to be a persecutor. No, you know, I because let's face it, he was Jewish, and at the time Israel was under the occupation of Rome, and he perceived himself as being persecuted.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

I do love that phrase, you know, I'm hanging on a high note here. Uh, why are you persecuting me? It reminds me that God has got my back. When somebody's attacking me for my Christian beliefs, I think, uh, yeah, I stand with one as God on this. God sees that as an attack on him. Yes, yes. I find that very reassuring.

SPEAKER_03 27:53

Christ is feeling persecuted with me and for me.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Yeah, that's very strong as well as it's very powerful.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

And and I so I yeah, I genuinely think for Paul, some of that might have actually been a resonation of uh like a resonating in his head of no, no, no, no, I am the persecuted. How how how can you say that I'm persecuting anyone because I'm a persecuted person? Yeah. And you know, in some some war situations, some people who are attacking others are saying, no, I'm attacking them because I'm persecuted and I want to keep myself safe.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Yeah. It's not gonna be easy, is it?

SPEAKER_03 28:32

How can I kill someone to keep myself safe?

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Yeah. I yes, some things are black and white, but I find so much in the Bible different shades of grey. It's perhaps I shouldn't admit that to um the audience, but but there are yeah, some I think for me I just acknowledge that this question is too big for me to get a handle on. I express my thoughts to God and he smiles benignly and sort of shakes his head at me, but I just leave it with God. Yeah, God's got it, and he's got my back as well, as we've just said.

SPEAKER_03 29:08

We have talked a lot there. Is there anything else in this passage that you wanted to draw out? You're possibly not, but is there anything else that you wanted to draw out in this passage as we head towards a conclusion?

SPEAKER_01 29:21

Yeah, I mean, to live out the ideal of looking uh past the identity that people have created for themselves. I mean, we often say, don't we, when somebody comes to church, everybody is welcome. And then somebody will say, Oh, what about thieves and murderers? And I think it's a difference between everyone is welcome, but sometimes the behaviors are not welcome. So Paul Saul would be welcome in our church even before he had his conversion, but his behaviors wouldn't be, but we welcome the person, not the behavior.

SPEAKER_03 29:55

And we should welcome the person and call out the behavior. And then and yeah, Saul Saul, why do you persecute me? You know, like we we need to probably acknowledge that Jesus is calling out the behavior there, isn't he? Yeah, he's accepting Saul, but he is still naming that behavior as persecution.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Yes, and it's important. You have, you know, it's the truth and accountability. Yeah, yeah, there are consequences of what you did, Paul. People have lost their lives.

SPEAKER_03 30:26

But but Paul's conversion actually means that in some ways, and it in fact, Paul admits that in some of his writings, doesn't he? That more or less I I was terrible. And yeah, and and some of the motivation for doing what he does is actually trying to make amends for the things that he has done. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

He often says, I was the worst of the uh persecutors. The worst of sinners. He knows, doesn't he?

SPEAKER_03 30:55

Yeah, and so he's trying to he's he's living out a transformation and actually living out a living out that conversion and trying to rectify the sins of his past.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

Yeah, aren't we all?

SPEAKER_03 31:13

Always, yeah, always and yeah, it is a powerful, powerful passage. It is. Um well, is there anything else we should be saying?

SPEAKER_01 31:26

No, I think I've had my say. Um it's good to talk these things through. Um Richard's therapy session. It is, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's interesting to dig into a story that I've known since I was a kid and realize there is so much more treasure to be sort of um unearthed.

SPEAKER_03 31:45

For me, thank you for the conversation. It has been really interesting to start to look at that. Because you're right, we can just read through the story and smile and go, oh, wonderful. Um, now in the life of our church, this weekend there is no repair cafe because it is um Anzac Day on Saturday. And that means there's no Taze service either. No Taze this month, yeah. So no Taze, no repair cafe. Um, there is Anzac Day, and there's the church camp coming. I don't know if there's any spots still, but if you are interested, please let us know. We might be able to wingle something. Um, yeah, because the church camp, it's only a week and a half away, I think. It's coming very rapidly. Don't think there's anything else major happening in the life of our church at this point in time.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

You would know better than me, Richard. Yeah, well, no, I'd no, possibly not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:41

Um, yeah, so look, that's the stuff that's happening in the life of our church. We have loved talking to you today, and I've really enjoyed talking with you, Phil, and doing some extra thinking. Um, please let others know about TUC Talks and encourage them to download it and have a listen. Um, and if you've ever got any questions in relation to the sermon, please send me an email and we'll have a go at um answering it in the conversation. Thank you, Phil.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

Thank you, Richard.

SPEAKER_03 33:12

Okay, talk to you guys next week.