Paul in Athens

This week the Rev Richard Harris sits down with Rev Patty Lawrence to discuss this weeks Bible reading - Acts 17:13-31

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

G'day everyone, it is TUC Talks, and and um it's Richard Harris here, and TUC Talks it literally means Terrigal Uniting Church Talks. I think I should explain the name. TUC Talks. Um and today I did not preach on Sunday, but Patty Lawrence preached at the 8 and the 10 o'clock, and so I'm going to be chatting with her. Hello, Patty. Hello, Richard. How did Camp go? Camp was fantastic. The speaker was probably lackluster, but you know, for everyone that doesn't know, and the speaker had to pull out just a little about a week out, and so I couldn't get another replacement. So, you know, the poor people at camp had me rambling wildly at them. Um, we have got a fantastic passage. Your husband is frightened that I'm gonna be so excited that I'll take over this conversation. I'll hold back as best I can.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

No, no, don't worry about that. I will jump in.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Excellent. Everyone, we're going to be discussing the reading for the first Sunday in May, and it is Acts 17, and it's 13, I think to 31. 13 to 31. Let me give you a brief overview of the passage, and then we'll start the conversation. So, Paul and Silas are in Bira, and which is, I think, in Thessalonica, or in and around there, or no, it's another place, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:43

It's another place, but I can't remember where.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

But anyway, and and some of the people from Thessalonica are sort of going to come and make a bit of trouble. And Paul's friends shunt him along towards Athens. I think they were probably a bit sick of him and they just wanted to have a rest. But you know, the scriptures don't say that. They actually say that they encouraged him for his safety to go to Athens. And then Paul, once he gets there, just does the things that Paul does. You know, he wants to talk to people about Jesus as much as he can. And he has this great conversation. So he's going around and talking to people, and then he walks up what's called Mars Hill, I do believe. And up on Mars Hill, there were altars on either side as they wandered up, and then there was the altar to the unknown God. Tell us why you reckon there was an unknown god altar, Patty.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

There's two theories that I've heard for why there's an altar to an unknown god. One is that it might have been to a god who they thought was unknowable, a mystery god that was unknowable. The other is that it was a god. They were so religious that they didn't want to miss any gods out, and so they had an altar to an unknown god, a god they didn't know the name of, but they didn't want them to miss out.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Yeah. That's the one that I've always heard. Like it was sort of the the bonus catchal um altar to okay, we've we've tried to worship all the gods, but if we've missed one.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

And and I think that probably is it, but it's just interesting that on one of the commentaries I looked at, they said, well, this is the other That's the other theory. That's the other possibility is that it was they thought there was another God who was a mystery. And so either way, Paul speaking about Jesus or speaking about God as the unknown God still makes sense regardless.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

And so so Paul basically he has a conversation with everyone because it tells us that the um stoic philosophic and epicurean philosophers would talk all day and they'd have a good old chat. Unlike Patty and I, we work hard and then just have brief conversations.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Something like that.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Yeah, yeah. So there's this thing that they would talk and they would want to know new ideas, and so Paul talks to them about Jesus Christ and he shares the good news in a beautifully open and open way, and then by the end of it, he sort of comes in quite hard and says, and this unknown God will judge you. And um, well there's a bit of judgment there at the end.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

I suppose I didn't focus on that. I think Paul gives us a great way of connecting with other faiths.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

I'd agree with you.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

I think it's a great way of connecting into faith, and even for people of no faith that we meet, because wherever he goes, he meets with the Jews first.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

And he connects with them from the Hebrew scriptures and from, you know, and then this is Jesus. You know, you've been waiting for this Messiah in the line of David, and this is Jesus. So he connects with what the Jewish people know.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

And we need to remember that at this point in time, the church, Christianity, was a part of the synagogue. It was a part of Jewish faith. It wasn't, it was more or less like a denomination of Judaism in a way, at this point in time. There's a later stage that the church steps out.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Yeah. And so at this point, yeah, Christianity, or the Jesus story, I don't know that it was even called Christianity then, but the Jesus story was, yeah, part of, yeah, people would still go and worship in the synagogue and see Jesus as part of their Jewish story.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Well, they would see Jesus as the Messiah that they had been waiting for.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Yeah. So it wasn't a separate thing. So it wasn't like you'd go to synagogue or go to church. It was like you'd go to synagogue because we're still Jews. Yes. So they saw themselves as still Jewish, and there hadn't been that split at that point.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Um But there was a challenge starting to bubble up, wasn't there? Because this openness to the Gentile population, the non-Jewish people, was causing a tension in the synagogues.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

It was, and it was even causing a tension within the Jesus part of the synagogue between those in Jerusalem who thought you had to be Jewish to be Christian, and then those like Paul who said, no, no, no, you don't have to be a Jew. You can just follow Jesus without becoming Jewish first.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

So, yeah, so there was some tension, and there was therefore tension in the synagogue about whether this Jesus was actually the Messiah, and therefore whether this was an abroad, you know, something outside of Judaism. And in the end, there was that split between Judaism and Christianity. Um, but I just think it's great how Paul, when he speaks in the synagogue, speaks about Jesus in a way that connects with their um with their Jewish scriptures, and yet when he speaks to the Gentiles, he connects to them through Greek poetry and through this unknown God. I can tell you who this unknown God is, and so I think it's great how Paul connects with people where they're at.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Yeah. I love that as Paul's walking up to the Areopagus, as he's walking up Mars Hill, like he could have done one of two things, he could have just been offended at all of the other altars, because ultimately the Ten Commandments are really clear, and Paul being a Pharisee, he would have known them that you worship God and God alone. And even to actually pick up this temple, this worship to the unknown God and say this is the God you've been worshiping, that's a pretty out there statement, considering the people that would have been putting offerings on that altar.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

And it does say in the in one of the translations at least, he was offended by it. But he doesn't go and knock it down, he doesn't have a got them. He says, Athenians, I can see how religious you are in every way.

unknown 8:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

So he says something positive to them, even though he's offended by the idols, and as a yeah, former Pharisee, he would have been.

unknown 8:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

And he was a bit of a hothead at times.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Look, we we have seen Paul get grumpy.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Yeah, so you know, uh he didn't knock them over, he didn't tell them to stop making offerings, he didn't denounce them, but he says, I can see how religious you are, I can tell you who this unknown God is, and then connects not back to Hebrew scripture but to creation, which was something that they understood.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Do you think this was a tactic of Paul, or was it a heartfelt conversation and response from Paul? Do you know what I mean? Like it because for me, one of my hopes is that Paul is not doing this as a tactic or strategy, but he's actually looking at them and going, you guys are actually, you can see that you've been seeking here, and let me tell you about who you've been seeking. I think there's a more generous and loving response in that to, well, what's the way that I can have a go at these people?

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Oh, and I suppose I keep looking back to how he talked to the Jews, and he always spoke to them in terms of their history.

unknown 10:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

And I think he's doing the same thing here with the people of Athens. It's not necessarily their history, but he's he's connecting with a point in their culture that connects with their spirituality. And so I don't think he's doing it just to butter them up, but I think it's a good way for us to talk about Jesus. Um, you know, I there may be people who have been converted by someone standing on a street corner telling them that they are condemned, but I think, you know, what is it? You catch more flies with sugar honey than vinegar or something. Um, I think there are ways of being open and and connecting with people in relationship.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Yeah. And I think Paul does this like I personally think he's doing it in a genuine way. And I think there are other signs that show that. Like for the mere fact that we now call him Paul, where at his conversion he was Saul. Yeah. And Saul was the Hebrew version of the word, but it seems like through the scriptures, when he starts to do missionary work and particularly missionary work out of Israel, he starts calling himself Paul. I don't think there's any other mark as to why he changes the name. And I think it's he changes his name to the Greek version of his name because he's communicating to people outside of the Hebrew world. You know, it's a bit like if I go to Italy and people start calling me Ricardo, I don't get upfair, I don't get upset that they're trying to call me Richard still.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

No, yeah, and and I think it's another example of the change in Paul, not just the change in name, but the change in his character after his meeting with Jesus on the road to Damascus. There's this shift from, and he's probably still a bit of a hothead at times, but certainly he was a very much a hothead, that strong Pharisee, um, very much bound by the detail and minutia of the law, to this person who's now outspeaking with Gentiles, which as a Pharisee would have he wouldn't have considered, and speaking into their culture and and quoting Greek poetry.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Yes. I I yes, we in whom we live and move and have our being. I I I thought it was a Christian geek, but it's actually Greek poetry.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

So did I. Um and I think that's an example of how God uses us in our humanity, but how we how our whole trajectory can be changed.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Um, and some of that will be slower than others. We're a you know, work in progress.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

It's also, I think it's a it's it's a guide for how we respectfully can communicate to other cultures, but also I think it's a challenge for us to actually be open to hearing where other cultures have engaged with God in a way that we might not have understood. Um I can still remember, I think it was probably 25 years ago. Might have been, it might have been about that time. I went to assembly. I've been to assembly twice in my time. Assembly is the United Church's national meeting. And one of the speakers was one of our indigenous ministers from Victoria. And uh, and he was talking about was he Victoria or South Australia? I can't remember, but he was he was from the area. This will probably tell me it must be South Australia, where the Murray reaches the sea. Yep. And he was going through some of the creation story of his of his tradition, and then he was actually linking that to some of the old testament, and he was basically saying so. Tell me why my people haven't been trying to understand God here through our stories from so many years. Yes, now we meet Jesus, but we were trying, and and he was sort of challenging us to actually not look at his his tradition and culture as godless, but but as as a part of a faith journey.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

I think sometimes we can be a bit arrogant, as certainly as you know, white western Christians, about our understanding of God and the stories. Whereas when we meet people from indigenous cultures, from our own indigenous culture who have amazing stories, but also from Pacifica cultures and African cultures, there's still this sense of God. And when you look at the Jewish scriptures and the Muslim faith, which all come you know from the Judeo-Christian, you know, Muslim Christian, all have some common um history and roots, uh we so often see the differences rather than the similarities. And that's the thing, when we get together with people of other faiths, it's important for us to listen to their story and not just make it about ours. It's and so when we do interfaith dialogue as a church, and we have committees and groups in the United Church that do interfaith dialogue, it's not about changing them. It's about going, okay, yes, how can we work together for the common good? How can we respect each other and still stay true to ourselves? So if I'm having a dialogue with a Muslim person, I'm not trying to convert them and they're not trying to convert me. We're looking for common ground.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

When I when I lived in Wollongong, we had an Islamic person next door, and through Ramadan, she would offer over the fence to us cakes and treats as a part of the Ramadan festival. And then Suzanne and I just looked at each other and said, I suppose if we're doing it, then we probably should do Easter. So you know there were there were Easter eggs and hot cross buns going back across the fence the other way. As a dialogue of respect, ultimately, I as a Christian, I have a very clear understanding that it is Jesus Christ that is our salvation, and it is through Christ that we we come to God. But that doesn't mean I can't respect and have a fantastic conversation with my Islamic neighbour and eat some fantastic baklava. Yeah, yeah, it was good.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

And I think that's the thing. When we do interfaith dialogue, we're not giving up our own Christian identity.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

No.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

And we're not asking other people to give up their faith identity. Um, but the thing I spoke about a lot yesterday was how do we relate to the people of no faith? How do we relate to the people in our community who are going to things like meditation groups, like we have meditation on the beach at Umina? Um there's a retreat, there's not a retreat, it sounds like a retreat. There's a wild woman's circle on a Saturday afternoon soon. I don't think I'm quite wild enough.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Oh, Patty, you're wild enough to be in any wild woman circle.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

But it includes meditation and some movement and journaling and a closing ritual, which sounds like a retreat without the prayer.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

And so, you know, those people, and I think there's a lot of people in our community today looking for a sense of connection, not only to other people, but to what we would call God or the spiritual realm. And I guess my thing is, how do we make the church a place where that's another place they might consider?

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Because Paul here, like one of the things that Paul does, and this is a in this passage in Acts, Paul calls people to faith. Like he actually is inviting people to meet Jesus Christ for themselves, which is one of the calls of our Christian walk, to to encourage people to meet Jesus Christ for themselves. And and so he has this wonderful conversation with them where he quotes, you know, Greek philosophy and poetry, and then he he introduces Jesus Christ into that conversation, and some of those people are interested enough that they form the start of the church in Philippi.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

And I think that's the the great thing about the way Paul does that is he does the Greek uh poetry and philosophy first. Yes, he doesn't jump in and do, okay, this is Jesus, accept Jesus or you're destined to hell. He goes, Okay, but you know, here's this, you've got your all this religion that's happening around the place. Like Athens was the a cultural and intellectual hub.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Um these were people who are fascinated by new ideas, but he connected with their Greek, you know, he quoted their philosophy and culture and then says, and here's someone you might be interested in. And the people who walked away he didn't condemn. He's probably hoping they'll come round sooner or later. But he did then tell them about Jesus, and some of them did believe and become the basis of a church. Um, and it says some of them wanted to know more, and I think that's another thing as a church we need to be aware of that just because people don't accept Jesus the first time you tell them doesn't mean that we write them off. No, it doesn't because there are plenty of people who are interested in Jesus, but for some reason or other have given up on church.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

Yes. And sometimes it's because as church we have not been at our best.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Oh I nearly left the church. What would that be 35 years ago because of what Christians were telling me?

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Yeah, yeah. Yes, yeah. So Paul here in this Acts passage, he has this wonderful and I perceive respectful conversation. And and then he introduces Christ in the midst of that, and it is a guideline for us of how do we engage with the world around us and and how do we engage with different cultures and different concepts. And it doesn't mean that we let go. Of our foundations, but we just don't bludgeon people.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Like, yeah. I I think at times I've felt that people have used the Bible as a weapon against me. Even when I was training to be a minister in a uniting church theological college, a private student, not another candidate, a private student said to me, But you're a woman, you're not allowed to preach. Um, you know, and starts quoting Timothy at me. Um and I think far too often we see the Bible as something to judge people by. Or there are ways, you know, the Bible is challenging. I'm not gonna doubt that. But I think it's up to the Bible to challenge us. Not for us to quote the Bible at people to challenge them. Um, not unless you've got that kind of relationship where you can do it. Like, yeah.

unknown 22:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

I'd accept it from, you know, one or two people in my life, but not from someone who's just met me.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

So if someone wants to challenge you, they go and talk to your husband and say, could you challenge Patty about this?

SPEAKER_00 23:10

And he'd go, if you've got a problem with Patty, you go and talk to her yourself. Your problem, not mine.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

That's a strategy.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

That's a strategy. Good minister's husband, he learnt very early on that.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

He is not the avenue to you.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

He is not the avenue to me.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

No, fair enough. Um, is there any more in this passage that you wanted to draw out, Patty? Because for me, it is it is a wonderful passage that challenges me to think through some of those cultural interrelations issues. Again, this goes back to my experience of going to Arnhem Land when I was younger and talking with our indigenous people. Because one of the ways that they would talk about their dream time story was in a similar way to the Old Testament and say that in the Old Testament they were seeking God and finding God in Jesus, and in some of the dreamtime stories, they were seeking God and finding God in Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

And I think that's something for us to remember is that a lot of people are seeking God. They might not have a name for that, but I think a lot of people are seeking. And the respect that Paul shows people, like this hot-headed, fiery person, he goes there and it's the respect that is written into these conversations. I mean, maybe Luke told it, maybe it's a Luke version of what happened because it's a Luke version of what happened, but I think that respect for other cultures and other people is a really good example of how we can be true to who we are. It's not asking us to water down our own faith. And the other thing I think is listening. He listened to the people.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

You know, when you've you've mentioned a couple of times that Paul is occasionally a bit fiery and a bit hot-headed, which is true. Just read the Bible, you can't polish that out of it. But the times that he is at his grumpiness, like at his grumpiest, is actually when he's talking with people that are very close to him and very close to his theology. Like so, it's when he's arguing with the other Christians, that's when he's at his grumpiest, because he's trying to change people that believe almost the same as him, but not quite the same as him.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Yes, and I think sometimes that's as a church where we get tied up in knots. Yeah. Um, some of the I've been to assembly three times now.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Oh, you've seen it of good arguments.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

Oh, yeah. And um, and yeah, none of the arguments are about whether we should believe in Jesus or not.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

None of the arguments are about whether we should have bread and wine for sacraments. None of the arguments are about kind of those basics of our faith.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

About the stuff that we almost believe the same, but we've just got a slight tweak.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Yeah. So yeah, so that's where sometimes I think the church is a bit too inward looking. We get so caught up on um on on the little differences.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

It's a it's a bit that we forget that in general, like there's 95% of stuff we agree on, yeah, and this basics of our faith. So, like, I wear an alb to worship and Richard doesn't. So we could have an argument about that.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

But we don't need to because we know that you are wrong.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

But maybe Richard doesn't look as good in white as I do. Like that's the stuff, isn't it, that we fight about. And that's the stuff that we could fight about, but that's really not that's a personal preference, and it's really not about the substance of our faith. It's helpful for women who don't have pockets to wear an alb because there's a pocket for the microphone thing.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Good idea, too.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

I mean, like these trousers, the pocket's not big enough to put a microphone in. My alb has two pockets.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

Oh, I have mine.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Because mine is m made by a group of women for women ministers. See, I'm a pocketless alb man. Oh, well, see, it's a waste of Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Waste of a good bit of material.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Waste of a good alb. So that's the thing. Like, no, no, no. See, there's a group of women in America who design albums for women.

unknown 28:08

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 28:08

And so, yeah, mine has two quite roomy pockets. So there you go. Yeah. So fascinating, so that's what I mean. Like, they're the kind of things we end up in internal debates about in the church. Yeah. And you know, like at the moment we're moving from twelve presbyteries to three, and there's going to be a whole lot of argy bargy about stuff that's not important. Because, you know, as the Uniting Church, we believe in Jesus and we believe in inclusion.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

That is one of the questions of salvation, isn't it? Like, does God is God concerned about the small bits? Or is God basically saying if you're in this broad, broad scoop, you're fine? Because that's really ultimately that's the question. Are we in God's kingdom doing what we are doing? And if we if we are, then do we need to change someone else who is also in God's kingdom doing what they're doing?

unknown 29:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

And I think that's something that is a problem with Christianity when we see our job is changing someone else.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Our job is to tell people about Jesus, and someone used to have on their footer, on their emails, something about how something like tell people about Jesus, use words only if necessary.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

And so it would be in our living and in our welcome and in our listening that people sense something and then are open to hearing about what makes us the way we are.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

I can still remember coming back to my time in Arnhem Land on about face two. One of the things that was said to us after we'd been there for a month and learning and growing in that culture and faith exchange, um, one of the indigenous leaders there basically said, Now you've experienced this, leave us to sharing Jesus and growing and shaping our community. Um, basically, don't tell us what is wrong with our culture and our community. Well, we've got Jesus and we'll work that out. But you go back and look at your own community and work out with Jesus what you need to change there. And it was this wonderful thing of look, we know we've got a few faults here, and with Jesus, we need to work on changing them. But don't you step out of your little disaster of a culture and come and tell us how to run ours when you need to go back and fix up your culture. And I thought that was a very powerful line.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

I have limited experience of indigenous people, but I know when I lived in Dubai, which has a at the time had about 16% indigenous population. Um there were issues in, you know, some of the indigenous, there were certain areas where a lot of indigenous people lived in town. And the grandmothers knew, and the grandmothers were trying to do things. Um, the women's refuge that I was on the management committee for was involved with the indigenous community. We had indigenous workers, but they knew what needed doing. It was just being allowed to get out of, yeah, keeping some of the white do-gooders out of the way so that they could actually do their thing.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Because our culture is so different.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Like at church, I would not chastise another person's child. I mean, if they were in danger, I'd drag them out of the way.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

But if another parent's there, I'm gonna, you know, if I see someone's child doing, you know, if you had small children, I saw one of them doing something I thought was inappropriate and you were there, I'm not gonna say anything to them. In Indigenous culture, there are certain other people who do that. Like that's part of the culture, yeah, is this series of grandmas and aunties that are kind of like mothers.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

Yeah, it's that collective work.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

It's it's a very different culture, and I think trying to go in and make people conform to our culture is not necessarily helpful when you see the state of some of our families.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Yeah, but in this passage, we're inviting people to Christ so that Christ can shape them, not so that I can shape them into another version of me.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

And that's the thing. How many Patty Lawrences and how many Richard Harris do we need?

SPEAKER_01 32:54

No, but we need people that are followers of Christ.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

We need people who are followers of Christ and who let the spirit work on them to be one of my favorite things to say to people is be who God dreams you to be.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

You come, you meet Jesus, and the spirit then works on you to become more fully who you are, more fully who God created you to be. Because, yeah, we don't need a world full of patties and Richards, we need a world full of people who are living the life God calls them to.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Yeah, because in a sense, Paul here is not trying to create a replica of himself, he is trying to invite people to discover Jesus Christ, to discover the God that they have been worshiping for so long, and to then be formed by God. Um, and that's a really important part of our faith journey, is helping people be formed by God.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

And I know that's one thing you've been involved in with candidates, yeah. Um, but as ministers in our congregations, we do that as well.

unknown 34:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

There's a lady I first met in one of my congregations at Playgroup. Then she started coming to a casual service that we're running. She's since been confirmed. She's now on church council.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

I was invited to the casual service for something special the other week. She prayed a prayer without having anything written down in front of her.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Now she's had a number of, it's not, I'm not the only one who's had influence on her. She's had a whole lot of other influences on her as well. But it's interesting to see how in the space of 10 years, she's moved from not really being sure about faith at all to being a leader.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

And and that was never going to happen overnight. So but that's part of, and I think that's one important thing about being in a faith community, whether it's a church or a Bible study group or whatever, is it gives you somewhere to be able to grow and and test out, you know, can I pray out loud without the words in front of me? Are these safe? Are these people safe for me to have a go at that? Yeah. Even when I'm not sure what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

And will they show and will they celebrate the faith that we are learning and growing in?

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Yeah. And I think it's the same with Paul's example of people that we're in relationship with. Are we people who are safe for them to come and say, hey, my life is a mess? Are we safe people for them to come and say, you know, my partner's just been diagnosed with cancer and I don't know what I'm going to do next? And we can speak Jesus into that, but it might not be at that exact moment. Yeah. It might be a couple of months down the track before we get to speak Jesus into it. But are we people who are respectful enough to hear their story, to hear their pain, to yeah, to hear their points of connection.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Because in this Bible passage, Paul has a group of people that walk away from this who want to hear more, but the reality is the wanting to hear more takes him a long time. Like the letters of Philippians are him writing to these people that have actually come to faith in this moment and other times with Paul. And we're talking the journey of years as he is discipling and growing them. It's not that they go from nothing to everything, they go from starting the journey of faith. And that's a slow process sometimes. It can be quite fast for others.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

It can be quite fast, it can be quite dramatic. But even when it's quite dramatic, I think there is still this forming and shaping us that continues on in our life. Yes. Um and I think, yeah, being oh being open to hearing people and not just bashing them over the head with the Bible or the gospel.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Yeah. Look, helping them, helping them see the Bible as a powerful tool. Oh, absolutely. But yes, absolutely, I hear what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

Yeah, yeah. And certainly I yeah, I want people to be reading their Bible, I want people to be praying, um, I want people to be, yeah, stepping out in faith, but that's not necessarily the first conversation I would have with someone.

SPEAKER_02 37:41

No.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Well, so yeah, I think I think it's a great model for interfaith and intercultural. Um there are so many subcultures, even within our whitish westernish culture.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Yeah. Look, even within the church, there's that subculture of albwearers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Yep. The subculture of albwearers. Yeah, yeah. Me and Lorna and Sue. I know. And Dennis? Yes. You're outnumbered here, Richard.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

I am an isolated man. That's true. I know. I am the marginalized. I've always thought that I was the powerful hub, but I am the marginalized. Look, thank you for talking about this fantastic passage.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

Thank you for inviting me this morning, Richard.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Well, thank you for preaching on Sunday. Um, look, as far as other things that are happening in the life of our church, there is there's nothing particularly major coming up. The end of the month, we've got the repair cafe that I think will be a bit busy because we missed this month, so there'll be a few people probably wanting to be there for that. Um, so that's still another three or four weeks away. And I think it is the 23rd, which is um the second last Saturday of the month. There is uh an ecumenical prayer gathering that is happening right across Australia. I think they're calling it Australia Praise. Um, and we're one of the spots where there'll be a couple of people gathering on the Saturday morning, um, I think from 10 till 12. I can be here from 10 till 11, but I'm not going to be able to make it to the end. Um, so that's happening as well, but keep an eye on the notice sheets. Those things will be there. Um thank you, Patty.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

Thank you, Richard.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

And thank you, everyone, for listening in to TUC Talks, Territorio United Church Talks. We'll catch you next week. Bye.