TUC Talks
Every week the Rev Richard Harris and special guests delve deeper into the reading of the week.
TUC Talks
Paul writing to his friends in Philippi
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Thus week Rev Richard Harris chats with Rev Phil Swain to discuss this weeks reading from Philippians:1:1-18
G'day everyone. This is TUC Talks again. And I've got the Reverend Phil Swain with me from Taramura Uniting Church. But we're claiming the TUC title this time for Terrigal Uniting Church. Welcome, Phil.
SPEAKER_00Lovely to be here. Lovely to be here.
SPEAKER_01So everyone, this is um our podcast for the week, and just looking at the reading that we've just gone through and a bit of a conversation with someone that might have some wisdom and insight into the last reading. I don't know. How did you feel, Phil? We have the the reading for this week, everyone, was the Philippians 1, 1 to 18. And to give you a bit of an overview, it's really the opening words of Philippians 1, of Philippians. And so it's sort of some greetings and some offerings of love, and then a bit of a bit of a chit-chat about some people are preaching for the wrong reasons, and I'm preaching for the right reason. Is that basically it in a nutshell film?
SPEAKER_00Uh yes, yes, yeah. Oh, look, I I found it interesting, um, just in general sense, because last time I preached on Philippians, which was six years ago in the middle of the lockdown, which I thought was interesting, um, was was on joy, because that's what most people preach on um approach this with the with a lens of joy, because it is quite a joyous letter.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But I didn't do that this time. I I was looking at it more from what does Paul say to uh this church trying to work out who it is in its local context. Um, what does it say about what does it mean to be a Christian and live the life of a follower of Jesus? And and I actually found it really interesting having that approach rather than joy.
SPEAKER_01Oh, did you? I found I found this passage. One of my elders said, Oh, it's a bit vanilla, isn't it, Richard? I said, Yes, it is quite sort of, I didn't find it easy to dig into myself. In the end, I focused far more on Paul than I did actually on what he was saying, which is interesting. Yeah, so I look interesting, yeah. I uh you know, that's why I found you, Phil. I wanted a good minister that can tell me something about the passage.
SPEAKER_00All right, well, uh how how did how did you begin? Did you did you start with the context of Philippians or did you just dive straight in?
SPEAKER_01No, no, no, I really did. I set the context up because I thought this is the first time we've looked at the book for quite some time as well. So we talked about it being that sort of a couple of things I mentioned. One was it a Greek city, it's the first community that he's converted in Europe, yep. Um, and set up, and he has a deep love for these people, doesn't he? Like you can see, you know, he's he's got a heart for them in so many ways.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So yeah, because it was only a few weeks ago we were talking about Acts chapter 16, which is the beginning of the church, yeah. And so I love that link that suddenly we're we're back there, and and now looking at this letter written in what a number of years later. Yeah, and and you're you're right. I I started by looking at that uh first part of the letter, which is all about gratitude and thanksgiving. And and you're right, it's it's not a letter like he's going, all right, let's jump in. Here's what you're doing wrong, here's what you need to do. He actually starts off from a genuine relational, you know, I thank you guys. Um, which you're right, it's it's a is a well, I think it's a good way to start, but it's it sets the context of where it's coming from.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and we're partners in this ministry, we're on this as a team, yeah. Yeah, and he's it's really interesting, you know, you talk about the Acts 16 passage that sort of introduces him in Philippi. Remind me when we come to the end about it's all good if it's preached for good reasons or bad, because I I find it fascinating linking back to the slave girl that he gets really annoyed with because she wanders around behind him, telling everyone that he's a prophet of God. Uh I would have thought that was a good reason or a bad, like you know, yes, yes, he gets grumpy and cast it, you know. Let's face it, demon possession, you probably should cast out, but um in the context of what he says at the end of this session, it's an interesting one. Yes, yeah. So, yeah, so tell me what where did you go next after you'd set the context?
SPEAKER_00You you mentioned that phrase partners in the gospel, and and that's where I kept coming back to, you know, this idea that um, you know, Paul did not see this as something that he was doing on his own, that it was not just his ministry, um, that somehow these people that he um was working with in Philippi, and they continued to work with him, even though he had moved on. You know, they prayed for him and they supported him, they uh financially gave to him. Yeah, you know, he really did see them as partners in the gospel. Um, and and some of the stuff that comes up later in the chapter, I was using that phrase as a bit of a of an anchor point to keep coming back to. That yes, we can understand some of this other stuff by the fact that Paul sees them, you know, as part of his ministry, that it was not all about him, it was actually about something bigger.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very much so. He was uh and I did like that imagery of partnership in the sense that although he's sent off and does ministry elsewhere, he sees them come very intertwined with what he's doing wherever he's going. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So so where do I go from there? Um, well, yeah, I I went into his prayer, the next part of it, which is um, you know, in praise for these people. Um, but I picked up particularly on the line of, you know, I pray that your love might abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight so that you might discern what is best. Um, I actually played with that one a fair bit, especially in my preparation stuff. I found two interesting parts to that. Um, and I'm interested to see how you took it as well. Firstly, you know, I love the first part of his prayer that your love might abound more and more. We could imagine praying that for our church, you know.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00That that's what we want, you know, for love to overflow. But he doesn't just pray that he prays that it will abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight. And that's interesting in itself, that often we will try and separate, you know, thinking and feeling, or you know, head and heart and that sort of stuff. And Paul seems to no no, we've got to put them together here, you know, that I want you to love, but I want you to love in knowledge and insight, and then goes on to use that word discernment as well. And and I I really found that interesting to play with. What does it mean to love with knowledge and depth of insight? What does it mean to love with discernment? Yeah, um, and I took that a few different ways, but here at uh the Southern Tuck, not the Northern Tuck, um the that we've just been doing a whole lot of mission planning and we're in an implementation phase at the moment. And for me, I guess I've got that on my mind, so that's what I was thinking about. But this idea that if we were just doing everything in love, we would be responsive to every need. We would try and do everything because that's what we do when we love, you know. There's a need, of course, we've got to try and you know, help there or do this or whatever. Um, if we're loving with knowledge and insight and discernment, what does it mean for us to go? You know what, we can't actually do everything. So, how do we be open to the leading of the spirit to do what is best in these situations, not just react with love? Um, and I found that really challenging. That's how I took it. I don't know how how did you take those lines?
SPEAKER_01Look, for me, it was interesting in the sense that I liked that he talked about he wants them to overflow with love, yeah. And it was almost like when you overflow with love, that is when you gain knowledge and insight. So, in a sense, we often come from it that we need to learn more and grow more, and when we learn more and grow more, we'll become a better Christian. And Paul here is almost saying, love, love, and you'll become a better Christian, and that will actually help you grow in knowledge and insight. So it's in a sense, the in the acts of love, we actually start to discover how to be Christians, we grow in knowledge and insight through the acts of love that we participate in.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So that was some of what I was playing with.
SPEAKER_00Because that links in, because whilst saying that we have to be discerning and thoughtful and insight in how we love, we can't just be discerning and insightful because that becomes managerial and cold. Yes. Without the love, as you just said, it it doesn't work, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And and yeah, for Paul, he just seemed to be saying to the Philippians church, no, they're combined. You you do this together, you need love. Um, and and then yeah, his his hope was there will also be a sense of discernment within that.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, and and so, in a sense, that and I actually one of the things that I played with at the very beginning of this was did you notice that as he introduces himself, he calls himself a slave for Christ? Yes, yes, uh and like we so often link slavery with an abusive master, you know, and quite rightly, because in a in the world today, modern-day slavery is nearly always an abusive master. Um, but for Paul, he actually would see himself as a slave to Christ, and he sees that as a positive. You know, I am I'm all in here, I am I'm a slave for Jesus Christ, and I will do what Christ wants me to do, and and that is to love. And not only that, but he's there's a sense of trust that Jesus will love him. Like he's prepared to be enslaved to Christ because he knows Christ's nature, and Christ's nature is a loving and compassionate nature, a servant who will serve him to his death, therefore, Paul will become a slave for him.
SPEAKER_00I I hadn't I hadn't gone down there, right? But I like that, yes, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So so I picked up some of that as well, that that Paul, in a sense, is prepared to be a slave because of the nature of Jesus Christ, and therefore he will reflect next just to spoiler alert, next week is the Christ Hymn, which is like the nature of Jesus Christ. And you know, so Paul is prepared to enslave himself to Christ because of who Christ is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the the other part in that little section um of the reading that I picked up on was the word fruitfulness, um, you know, that we are called to be fruitful in righteousness. Um and and sometimes, you know, I was just trying to reflect this back on us as a as a congregation. Sometimes we think that if we're busy, we're doing the right thing. If there's lots of activities, if there's lots of stuff happening, you know, busyness is the goal. And and Paul's going, no, no, fruitfulness is the goal. Then if we we can be doing lots in love and we can be running around doing everything, but if it's not actually furthering the work of Jesus, then you're just running around. Yeah, we're just being busy. Yeah, it's it's it's like John 15, you know, with the lots of leaves but not much fruit, you know. Yeah. Um you know, we we want to be fruitful as we love, we want to be fruitful as we serve. Um, yeah. I don't know. I just found that an interesting word that Paul slips in as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I I I one of the things that I actually led with as I was exploring this, see, because Philippians is probably um the church in Phil in Philippi has probably started around the the year 51, so it's it's quite early on in the life of Christendom. Um I I I like I picked up that Paul said he's a prisoner for you know, because we're trying to work out when Philippians is written. Apparently, the scholars really don't know when it was written, they're all over the shop. And I and I one of the things that I was saying to the congregation is that like so some think it could have been in Corinth in the year 51, because Paul says he's writing from prison. Yeah, you would think that was a fairly obvious marker, find out when Paul was in prison, and you'll find out when the book was written, but he was imprisoned in Philippi, and that was why he converted the jailer and all those people, and that's when it left. He went from Philippi to Corinth, he was imprisoned in Corinth in 51, and some some scholars reckon it might have been written more or less straight after the starting of that church, or he was imprisoned in Ephesus in 55, and so some scholars think that it might have been written from Ephesus while he was imprisoned there, and then some scholars say it might have been Caesarea Maritima when he was imprisoned there in the late 50s, and some scholars would say, Oh, well, when he was taken from Caesarea Maritima to Rome, it might have been written in Rome in the 60s, you know, early 60s, because basically Paul was constantly in jail, like if you like the Mac basically went from prison sentence to prison sentence. Yes. And part of one of the one of the things that I was picking up with my congregation is that for Paul his his determined nature for Christ basically means that he will not change, whether it means prison or not. He will he will do what he does. And I love that he gets so excited in this next section. Did you see where he goes? And isn't it fantastic? The whole palace guard, I'm I'm preaching the gospel to the whole palace guard while I'm in prison. I I liked one of the commentaries brought up this image of these poor people that were the guards that could not walk away from the people that they had to watch. And so Paul is basically just talking at them constantly.
SPEAKER_00Yes. But but that is a great segue to the bit that you hinted at earlier, the confusing, well not confusing, but the the challenging part of Philippians 1, which is all about this idea of yeah, motivations for preaching. And and you know, like what is all this about? The fact that, yes, Paul is now in prison, um, he's been taken out of play, and suddenly, yeah, other people are jumping into the spotlight and doing his ministry that he started and getting some of the QTOS for that. And and yeah, he spends half a chapter talking about it.
SPEAKER_01Did you did you preach on that part? I did, I did. Oh, very impressive. Tell me more. Because I looked at it and I thought, what do you do with that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Uh well, I found uh a number of years ago, I found actually when I preached in 2000, uh a nice analogy that helped me engage with it. You know, it was just an analogy of um a bloke who worked for a uh plastic company who suddenly discovered a market that nobody had thought of before, and suddenly the the you know, profits go up and everybody's happy except for the other salesman, because you know, this Frank is uh as a hero now. But but um yeah, he gets accused of embezzling, which nobody believes, and take it off the road. So all the other salesmen jump in. And you you would assume that Frank would get frustrated with that or you know, bitter about the fact that you know he did all the work and they're getting all the sales. But he's not, because he says, but as long as the company is selling the product, what does it matter? You know, that's what I'm here for to sell the company's product, and if the if it's being sold, it doesn't matter. And and to me, that's what Paul is saying here that if if the church is increasing, if people are hearing about Jesus, if people are responding to the good news, then what does it matter? What does it matter if I'm doing it or someone else is doing it? Well, it yeah, it gets complicated because then he raises that idea of motivation. But I can see the underlying point, and and I I mentioned this before, this idea that Paul sees himself being part of something bigger, and the gospel of Jesus is the bigger thing that he's belonging to. So it's not a ministry based around Paul, it is a mission based around Jesus. And for Paul, who cares who gets the spotlight?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and really for us as a church in modern day Australia, particularly modern day Sydney, yes, it's something that we need to hear and probably slap ourselves with from time to time, because there are some other denominations that really dump on the United Church and you know talk about how terrible we are, and the United Church gets frustrated with some of the other denominations, and we need to actually look at each other and go, Well, you play with your part of the kingdom and we'll play with ours because ultimately the kingdom grows.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I I I I mentioned that I sort of said, you know, this is challenging because not only do we as a church and we as ministers fall on the trap of comparing ourselves better than the churches, like you know, I wish I was like terrible, you know. But but yeah, Paul is saying it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, and even this sense of you know, the trap that churches can fall into thinking it's all about the key leader. Um, it's not all about the key leader. Paul's saying it's actually about Jesus, you know, like yeah, yeah, get the the you know, the the big picture right here, and so I I was finding that both challenging but quite helpful in the way that Paul approached. But we are skirting around this problem of motivations of preaching because Paul acknowledges that some of it, some of these people who've jumped in the spotlight are doing it out of love, but some of them are doing it out of poor motives that they want to be the next superhero when it comes to these things. I don't know what the motive is. Um, and and yes, can you preach out of bad motives? Can you further the kingdom's cause if with bad motives?
SPEAKER_01Because Jesus himself sort of says a house divided against itself will fall, and basically, you know, he he more or less says, if you're preaching me, then you're preaching me. Yeah, he doesn't sort of say there's levels of it, but then we can't take it too bluntly because the reality is Paul needed to cast this the demon out of the slave girl, even though that demon was wandering around behind him when he was in Philippi in chapter 16 of Acts, saying these are these are prophets of the most high God, they you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, and Jesus does it as well, you know. When when the disciples came up one time and and they said, Well, stop this person because they're doing things in your name. And Jesus said, I'm not gonna stop them because you know they're doing God's work. Well, why would I stop them? Just because I'm not doing it and you're not doing it, it doesn't mean that they should be stopped. But the way I solved it, which I'll admit is probably a little um simplistic, but I think it's part of the answer. It goes back to Paul's comment before about we're partners in the gospel. You know, we are not the key person here, we're just partners in the gospel. We're partners in not only with Jesus, but we're partnering with each other. And and Paul's going, if if we have that concept that we are partners together in this, then a lot of this other stuff doesn't matter. You know, he says it doesn't matter as long as Christ is being preached and church is growing, I'm gonna rejoice.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so to me, it came back to that idea of partners. Yeah, partners.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I just found that such a hard section to nut through. And good on you for having a go at it. Because I was I I just didn't know how to actually pull it apart constructively without digging myself into the well of so what happens today, you know, are there people that are preaching for the wrong reason? Because then if I start going down that pathway, we start to do a whole job, and I think Paul is a bit judgmental here. Like, you know, I think he is I think he's been a bit judgy as well.
SPEAKER_00You you could also use the fruitfulness line again as well, you know, that if people are producing fruit for the kingdom, then it's hard to be judgmental of that, you know.
SPEAKER_01Well, yes, like if the kingdom of God is growing, that is fantastic. Yes, yeah, that's our goal, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00The product is even if it's not the way that we would do it, we still have to celebrate, and that that was the challenging part for me. You know, sometimes I look at other churches and see how they're doing it, and I go, I wouldn't do it that way because that's not the way that I would want to, you know, um do ministry or empower people to do God's work. But I'm not going to criticize that it's what not that it is working over there, you know, because that's not the way I would do it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01One of my friends once uh um became one of the Australian reps to the World Council of Churches, and he said it was fascinating because as he was walking into the assembly of the World Council of Churches, this was 30 years ago, as he was walking into the assembly, there were some charismatic churches out the front protesting against the world council of churches and you know how wrong and evil it is, and then there were some Orthodox churches standing out the front protesting about how wrong and bad the the world council of churches was, and he said, and the irony was that they kept themselves separate because they couldn't agree with each other either, like you know, they basically they were united in their dislike of the world council of churches, but they couldn't be united out the front protesting together, they had to sort of keep themselves separate.
SPEAKER_00Yes, um, can I add one more thing into this conversation, Richard? That um I actually um push past the end of the reading, um, only because there were two lines at the end of chapter one that I thought helped yeah package together some of the stuff that we uh were looking at in the rest of chapter one. So the first one was I think verse 18, where uh no, verse 19, where Paul says, for me to live is Christ and to die is gain.
SPEAKER_01Oh I love that line.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and I find it interesting because you can read that as uh Paul's being super spiritual in a way that we don't quite understand, you know. I'd rather die, you know, I don't mind dying if it's for Christ, whatever. But I think what he's trying to say is, you know, we belong to something bigger, and and for him it was all about Jesus. And and if we if it is all about Jesus, then it doesn't really matter. Like he lives for Jesus, he will die for Jesus, it's all for Jesus. And I just found that a really great line that the reading didn't include that I wanted to highlight because for me it's it does that's what chapter one is a lot about, Paul is saying, you know, it doesn't matter that he's in in um jail, it doesn't matter that other people are getting the credit, he lives for Christ. Yes, um, I just thought it was a great line that I would have included if I was doing the narrative lectionary. I would have gone a little bit further to include that. But then right at the very end of the chapter, I can't remember the verse I didn't write down. I think it's 27 or something like that. It says, whatever happens, conduct yourself in a mother worthy of the gospel of Christ. Um, once again, another great line that that just highlights this idea, you know, that being a Christian is not just believing the right things, it's actually how we live that out. And, you know, we might believe the gospel and we might be able to preach the gospel, but we also have to live in a way that's worthy of that gospel. Um and and I just thought both of those lines, you know, you could see Paul going, you know, I've mentioned a number of things here. Let's wrap this up before I get to the great chapter two. And and and I think both of those lines were worth highlighting in the sermon. So I did.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like like that to live or to die for Christ, either way is working for me. Like it's a very yeah, it's a powerful concept, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Oh, so how long was the sermon?
SPEAKER_00Uh well, I was telling my church this, my first draft, I reckon, was going to be 40 minutes long, and my struggle was that I had to cut it down because there was so much in chapter one. Um, in the end, I did get it down to my 25 minutes normal, or yeah, whatever it was. Um, so so but but I had to cut out, I reckon, over a third of my sermon, just because when I was digging around, there was so much in this chapter. Um, yeah, so I'm not I'm not sure how chapter two is gonna go because I think there is even more in chapter two.
SPEAKER_01Uh the Christ hymn is one of my more favorite bits, it really is. Yeah, yeah. Uh next week I've got Phil Dokmanovic um in the conversation with me because Phil is Phil was our music minister when as he was candidating for ministry.
SPEAKER_00He's all right, yes, here at Terragorm.
SPEAKER_01And and he he talked about the Christ team a few times, so I thought, oh, I'll grab Phil to chat about the Christ team. Yeah, it's a it's a beautiful piece of documentation. Well, Phil, um thank you very, very much. Um really appreciated your insights.
SPEAKER_00Anytime, always love coming and speaking. Insights with you, Richard.
SPEAKER_01Um, now just for the congregation and for anyone listening, the life of our church, there's not actually a huge. Do you find this time of year, Phil, is sort of just like a breath after Easter and before you start preparing for Christmas?
SPEAKER_00I it is, except for we've got a massive flea market happening in Terry's time. So that breath was uh a week and a half ago, but it it is, it is, and and I think it's a good that that rhythms of of our church life helps us in that. And we need to take the breaths when they come.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. So really the only couple of things that are on the agenda for us in on the 23rd of this month on the Saturday morning between 10 and 12, Australia prays. There's a sort of a prayer meeting across Australia, um, and different churches host those prayer gatherings. We're hosting one of those prayer gatherings, and um beyond that, our regular ministry stuff is sort of just plotting along the repair cafes and those things. Um we have a Taise service on the last Saturday of the month after the repair cafe. That's really the only key things we're doing. Tell us about your flea market.
SPEAKER_00Oh, 30th of May. Um, yeah, 8 a.m. to 2 p.m. It's huge, and all the money that we raise, we give away. Um, but yes, it happens twice a year, wears us out completely, but um it it's it's a great day.
SPEAKER_01Well, look, and Tarama is basically just at the end of the freeway. So if you anyone wants to drive down to Sydney and have the thrill of going to a flea market, there you go. Yes. Yes. Although that is the same day as our repair cafe. So come to us for a pizza. Um, Phil, thank you so much for joining with us in the conversation. I really appreciate your insights.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Well, maybe all go out and live um this week worthy of the gospel, as Paul says.
SPEAKER_01Excellent line. Talk to everyone next week. Bye.
SPEAKER_00Bye bye.