The Christ hymn

This week the Rev Richard Harris takes a look at this weeks reading - Philippians 2:1-13 with special guest, Phil Dokmanovic

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

G'day everyone. Um, it is another TUC Talks, Terrible Uniting Church Talks. I'm still warming to the name. You know, if anyone's got a really good one out there that they want to add instead, let me know. Um today I have the absolute pleasure of speaking to Saint Phil of the North, Philip.manavic. G'day, Phil. Hi, Rich. How are you going? Well, thank you. Now, Phil, I was trying to remember how long ago it was that you were the music minister at our church.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Well, that's probably because it has been a long time. I'm wondering if people still remembered me there. Uh it has been so long. A couple definitely do. You're still speaking to me. I remember all of them. So uh hopefully there's something there. But yeah, look, I was uh I started there in 2012, and would you remember? I my final service was Christmas Eve 2015. So it sort of went out on a high in a way, but uh yeah, so it's been uh over 10 years now since a decade, a decade. We're all looking a bit more mature, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Yeah, I look, I yeah, I'm I'm still as youthful as ever. I can tell you you might be older, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Oh, the North Coast Air helps out a little bit, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Yeah, it definitely does. So, Phil, thank you for joining us for the conversation today. We're looking, as you know, I'm out at our church, we look at the narrative lecture, and we say our reading for last Sunday was Philippians 2, 1 to 13, which is a fantastic passage. Isn't it? Yes. And and one of the reasons why I went to you is because it holds within it the Christ hymn. And I thought, who better to talk to than a musician when it comes to the Christ hymn?

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Okay, yeah, yeah. Well, I guess that that is the part of the passage that stands out. I would have thought there are other reasons why you thought of me when you thought of this. Let's begin with the fact that it's Philippians, uh named after Philippi, which was originally renamed after King Philip the Second. So to have a Philip um on your show and uh talk about it is probably appropriate. That could be one reason. Yeah, good. The other one was that you would have remembered because I know your memory is just like sharp as attack. That uh I spoke about this at my ordination where you were the invited uh person to deliver the sermon.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Of course I remember that, Phil. And you're right, my memory is as sharp as a tack.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

I yeah, yeah. But um, I I mean that that obviously shows um what it means to me that it was um has been such a special passage and text for me in my spiritual life that I I would choose to use it on that that sort of occasion. So yeah, what a great, what a great thing to uh to join you with today.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Yeah, look, so to let everyone know, like the general gist of Philippians 2, 1 to 13, it's it starts off with Paul after he's done his welcoming passage in chapter one, he sort of says to the crowd that he's talking to in Philippians, look, is there, have you got any any compassion, any hope, any love? Um, and and if you've got these things, live that out. And he says, live that out like Jesus lived it out. And then he quotes the Christ Hymn. Do we know, Phil? You how much do you know about the Christ Him? Was he quoting a section of it, or was this the whole hymn, or we just don't know?

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Yeah, my sense is from the reading I've done is that there's a couple of thoughts on this. Uh yes, it could be all of it, but there could be more. So uh in in that term, there's also some questions as to whether it is poetry or actually whether it had been set to music. So the there's some some wonderings about that in the scholarly world, but yeah, the majority of people land on it being one of the earliest Christian hymns. And uh, I think you know, in in that sense, um, I don't know if your church is doing the first hymn. A few churches have picked up that that new contemporary song that yeah, a couple of people have talked to me about it, but no, we haven't picked it up. Yeah, yeah. It was introduced to me actually recently. We had um Paco up here uh doing some work with us. He's part of the Culture of Safety team, and he he was leading at a service and said, Oh, can we do this new song, Phil? I was like, okay. And I hadn't hadn't heard it yet, so we learnt that. And it's based on this small fragment they got um that they believe was is one of the earliest hymns uh that we have outside of the scriptures um that Christian people were singing from early days with some notation as well to sort of get you know guarantee that it was a musical piece.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Um for me with the Christ hymn, one of the things that fascinates me is that we're talking Philippians written somewhere between 50 and 60. Yeah, so 20 to 30 years after Jesus' death and resurrection. Yeah, and this is the stuff that they are writing down at that point in time. It really says so much about what they perceive Jesus to be.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Doesn't it? Yeah, the theological um base that is in this little section of this hymn says a lot, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Yeah. Phil, one of the things that I remember when when uh when we were first employing you as the music minister at Terigor, you might not remember this, but but uh I was uh I was a tad wary about sort of you know who is this bloke and will he fit with our church?

SPEAKER_00 5:40

And and will he sort of I need to push in a bit. What what what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 5:46

You know, you know, I was wary, I was concerned for my congregation.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

Okay, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

And I remember having an interview with you and a conversation with you, and one of the things that has always stuck with me is you said, every Sunday, Richard, there are two sermons that happen in a church. One is the sermon that the minister will preach, and the other is the theology that comes through through the music that people sing.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Yeah, definitely, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

And I I still hold to that. I mean, I I forgot that I spoke those words. I maybe I was a bit wiser back then, I'm not sure. But uh anyway, um, it I'm still involved in choosing um the songs that we sing up here in our congregations and uh feel that it is such an important thing to consider. And I don't always get it right, um, but it it's good to come back to the importance uh in our congregation. And I wonder in the context of the letter of Philippians that that the hymn appears there as Paul is talking about having the mind of Christ and he's talking about unity in the church, you know, one of his big themes. And and to sort of drop a song in there, maybe he's sort of saying, Remember the songs we're singing? Uh, you know, remember what we're singing about? Let's actually live this out. And I think that that's still a word for us today, isn't it? That we actually live out um the depth of what we're singing about, of who God is and how God calls us to live in love.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Well, look, and and I suppose for me, that that incredibly wise word that you said back to me 15 years ago or whatever it was, 14 years ago, but yeah, um was that understanding that the songs we sing actually shape our theology as much or even more than the words that a minister might say in a sermon.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Well, the actual history of you know uh hymn singing, that was why they said a lot of those early hymns that we still treasure today to pub songs, uh the classic hits, so that people would walk away, they'd know the tune, and hopefully they'd pick up the theology that the Wesleys were writing and uh our Methodist forebears, and and that would then carry them through their week as they may forget the words of they're pretty long sermons back then, like like your big boy sermons, Rich. Yeah, well aren't you looking at 30-minute big boy sermons?

SPEAKER_01 8:08

I've done one of those in my life. I think anything over 20 minutes is a miracle.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

That's right, that's right. But um, yeah, I just think there's there's a beauty in in song, um, and and you know, just in my ministry life in recent years, uh sitting with people at their bedside as they they're moving towards the end of life, it is often song that people carry uh, you know, in those those deep moments of life, um, moments of suffering, they're they're the things that get us through. Um yeah, I'm not discounting the value of scripture because people who memorize scripture, that's often where where scripture comes to them as a real uh connection to God and an understanding of their faith. But soul carries.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Yeah, and and and it it works in our brain differently. Uh, because one of the things people with dementia can often pick up song where they can't pick up other things from their history.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

So true.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

So sing a song that they know from their past and they'll be in there with you. Yeah, and they might not know who you are, but they'll know that song. That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Yeah, yeah, indeed. I was wondering too. Um, maybe this was one of the songs that Paul and Silas were singing in that jail in Acts 16. So, you know, it talks about them mid midnight, they're there in jail, they're praying praying to God and singing hymns. I wonder if it was this one. And he's like, Well, what hymn do I remember? Oh, and he just penned that one in there.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Yeah, yeah, definitely could have. That definitely could have. I do like I was talking to people about um about Philippians and when it was written, and there's there's a whole range of thought. We know that it was written from jail, so Philippians is written from Paul by Paul in jail, and when he leaves Philippians, he goes to Corinth, where he's put in jail. So some scholars think that it might have happened in um in 50 when 50-51 when he was just finished leaving them and wrote it wrote it early. Others think yeah, and then others think that it might be Ephesus by 55 because Paul was in jail. There's a page, and then others think that it might be around 40 um 59 in Caesarea Maritima on the coast where Paul was in jail. And then even other scholars go, no, it was probably written from Rome where Paul was transported from Caesarea Maritima to Rome where he was in jail.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Like the man, yeah. It's um there's definitely a pattern there in his life of letters and jail.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Yeah, and if you notice at the start of Philippians, he gets really excited and says, Oh, look, this is fantastic. I'm in prison, but I'm preaching to the prison guard, you know.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Yeah, any opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Great example. There was another thing about the song hymn nature of this that struck me actually, um, because I don't use the narrative lectionary, so I've just sort of done a deep dive back in to remind me. But it came to mind that it follows a very similar pattern to Psalm 22.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Now, Psalm 22 is often used on Palm Sunday or in the beginning of Holy Week. Uh, and that's the one that famously Jesus quoted from the cross, um, beginning with God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And uh, although we don't have to go into the theology of that, many people believe that that's how they referenced an entire song by saying the first line. Um, so that Jesus wasn't actually saying God had left, but that he was actually quoting the line of this opening of Psalm 22, which follows this beautiful pattern similarly to this Christ hymn, where um where that the reference is that this person is humbled and suffers, but then is is restored and raised again. Um, so I that came to mind as I was reflecting on the shape of it, because there's this beautiful shape to the Christ hymn. It's you know, you can almost imagine it um as a curve or something like that of of this descending but then um emerging again, um, being renewed and restored, and resurrection um coming at the end, which I think uh in one sense, maybe it was also this meditation in musical terms on Psalm 22 um as as a re-emergence.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Wow. So actually, it may have been a sort of a foundation from Psalm 22 and then and used that as a launching pad.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

I have I have that sense that it could be. It it definitely follows a very similar pattern, and um you know, musically to to sing, um, yeah, people would often follow that pattern.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

For me, I I I loved the way that it's sat in the book of Philippians. So Paul starts his chapter off by sort of saying, Is there any encouragement in Christ, any comfort in love, any fellowship in the spirit? And are your hearts compassionate? Like Paul is not we often see Paul as a fairly hard-nosed character, quite rightly, because he often is fairly hard-nosed, but but here the way that he is speaking to them, he's sort of saying, guys, guys, are you encouraged? Are you encouraging each other? Are you in fellowship with each other and in fellowship with Christ? And are you encouraging out of love? And is there a fellow is the spirit alive and at work in your community? Yes, and are your heart compassionate? He's sort of saying, you know, are you softened by the spirit? Really? Are you softened by God's work? Which is a really beautiful image of the way Paul is talking with these people.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Oh, that's right. And it it makes me or it strikes me to look at my experience um in the the faith community that I'm part of. Um how do we experience those elements as we work together, as we are united in love and faith? Um, I I think it's it's a beautiful reflection for us to consider too.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Yeah, cuz because he's drawing the people into this he basically says, if if you if you're wanting to be as as effective as you can as a Christian community, then these are the attributes, these are the characteristics. And then he sort of says, and let's live like Jesus Christ. Yeah, yeah. And one of the one of the things that I was actually saying to my congregation on Sunday was that the more power and the more wealth and the more comfort we have, the harder it is to give up. And in a sense, you know, we we almost sort of say it's almost impossible if you've got if you are if you have great power, wealth, and comfort, it's almost impossible to let go of that. Because, you know, why would you want to let go of that? And I love that Paul basically says now let me tell you about the one who was to all intention God who gives up everything for you. Because that's really the essence of the Christ Him.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Yes for me, that's the core and and what I come back to. And it it's the humility that is presented there that's always resonated for me and and has been what I have, I guess, attempted to live out in my life. Or as I've thought, well, how do I follow the way of Christ? How do I have the mind of Christ? Well, that's about walking his way. Uh, he is the way, that's how he describes himself. Uh, and so for us to walk the way of Christ is about humility. Um, and uh yeah, for us in our world today, it's not often a valued trait, is it?

SPEAKER_01 16:15

No, no, look, I was saying that if we look at our society, the traits that are power is power and influence is seen as what we should try and work towards. Yeah, and we almost judge, and we almost judge ministers by how much power and influence they hold, don't we? In the church.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Yep, yep, yeah, yeah. We we can't it seems to be that we'll look at all parts of society, and that's of course going to include our church.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Yeah, like and and I think some of the way that our leaders talk, you know, our political leaders of our nation and other nations, that that power and influence is the marker of success. Yes. Um and and then if we go to the Christ hymn, it says that Jesus became a slave. Yeah. Um really interesting. Uh one of the things I noted on Sunday is that at the start of Philippians, Paul calls himself a slave to Christ. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Yeah. Yeah. There's there's such um in one sense as Paul um presents this hymn, and whoever crafted it, whether um it it was how it was crafted or who by, we shouldn't be surprised that it describes Jesus in this way. Uh, the one that was incarnated in humility, the one who was born in a manger in humility, in humble circumstances, uh, the one who washed his disciples' feet um to show how we should love and how we would be known as his followers, and then the one that is nailed to a cross. Uh, this is um someone who has modeled for us humility uh and service. And so if we are to follow his way or have his mind, then they should be, we should be seen to be people who are humble. Uh and it's not an easy one. I know that.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yeah, like the yeah, the humility to the to the point of a slave is yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

I mean, lowest part of society almost in that that period, isn't it? In the honor-shame sort of society, and yeah, to actually come right down to that level is is just unheard of in how people recognize yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

And like if you look at the Christ team, it actually has this sort of dropping down and down and down. So although he was although he was God, he chose to let go of the power and influence of God, yes, to become a human. Yeah, and even though he was a human, he became a slave, even lower, yeah, the less. And then it steps down one more to the point that he was prepared to die a death on a cross, which was the death that was reserved for people who weren't Roman citizens, who were the worst, and it was meant to be the cruelest and most humiliating death. So, you know, he steps down and down and down and down. Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

I I also love that um journey of surrender as well. Um, and I wonder if that's a theme in faith or the spiritual life that we can continue to explore more in our world today.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Um, how do we surrender to God?

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there are old hymns where they used to sing it all the time over and over. Um, but it seems to be an element of the spiritual life that um that we probably don't consider as much anymore.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

And in a sense, in the Christ hymn, when Christ surrendered everything to God, that was when God raised him up. You know, in the act of surrendering everything to God, God raises him to the highest of heights.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Yeah, yeah. Um and to jump back a few steps, uh if if I may, I think it's like our world wants the back end of this Christ hymn, but wants to ignore the importance and the vitality of the front end. Like let's just sing the third verse today of this hymn, Richard. We might go to the end. Yeah, we're a bit too scared to sing the first verse because what does that really mean for us and you know what we might have to do in our lives? Um, yeah. So it's uh I I as I said earlier on, I really like the shape of of this Christ hymn for that, for that reason, that it reminds us of Christ's humility and how God continues to work um amidst that to then bring beauty and restoration and uh in Christ's case glorification as well.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

One of the things that I was saying is that I I really try to avoid talking about inside the church and outside the church. I get a bit irritated by the concept that you know holy club of the inside of the church and them out there. Oh, yeah. Um, but in this reading, more than most, the the inside, because after the Christ hymn, Paul really starts to lean into that we need to raise one another up. And and in a sense, it's in our humility, we actually say well, he says it right through this passage that we see others as higher than ourselves. We we we place others in a greater position. And and if we do that raising up, when Whole community does that we all lift, you know what I mean? Like if I raise you up and you raise me up, we both raise each other up and we both rise. Um, and and I think that's a really powerful image. So in the church, if we actually take this on collectively, then we lift each other. It's not that we actually because the the the reverse of that, the image of the trying to climb to the top by climbing over someone else, we push others down, and others push us down.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Yeah, yeah. Um I love that image. I think it's um it's a reminder of our call to love one another. If we are truly loving one another as Christ has loved us, then we are lifting each other up. Yeah. We are looking to to around us at how we can encourage and how we can um we can add value to the lives of those around us as they do so for us as well.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

Yeah.

unknown 23:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

It's I was wondering about verse uh, I think it's right at the end at uh 12. Um, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Yes, yes, it is an interesting place.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Uh I I've actually got a little story about that um verse uh out of context, but is that okay if I share?

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Go for it. I'd love to hear it.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

So, you know, my background was in brass banding. And uh I remember when I moved to the UK for a year to study, and I was playing with a great band there, and we were preparing for a contest. And I tell you what, they took their contest seriously. Like they worked, um, they worked so hard, uh, three rehearsals a week, weekend rehearsals leading up to, say, your British Open Championships. And one of the conductors, who wasn't a person of faith, um was having a word with one of the lead players who was struggling to play one of their really technical parts. And um, he could tell that he was trying hard, but it just wasn't working on it at this, it was the final practice before the um before the competition later that week. And uh at the end he said to him, Well, you're gonna have to go home. I can't put on the Yorkshire accent, sorry. Uh, you're gonna have to go home and uh and practice. You'll have to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, he said. And I yeah, I went, Oh, he's quoting from scripture. There you go. I wouldn't have thought that uh it had got that far. But uh yeah, there's something beautiful about it actually. That passage, it strikes me, um, yeah, it strikes me personally, although we know that we can be encouraged in our learning in community and we read the scriptures together. Um, there's this idea that together we can actually work out what salvation means. Um, and but also with that, the fear and trembling element um it is the humility for me as well.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

I actually like the image that you're talking about about working out your salvation, fear and trembling, like trying to achieve the goal is what they were doing in that band context.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

That's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Because I often think we grab the words fear and trembling here and turn it into a judgmental God, you know, fear and trembling because God's gonna judge me if I haven't worked out my salvation. Yeah, no, I'm not I'm not about that. Yeah, no, no, no, because I actually think it is about God trying to lift us to achieve this.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

In fact, the um the version that we use nowadays is the New Living Translation. Okay, yeah, what do you think? And hear what it says there, it says um it is even more important. Work hard to show the results of your salvation by obeying God with deep reverence and fear. So, in a sense, it's actually work hard to try and do this and do it well. Like it's not a not it's your own task, work it out for yourself. It's nurture this, work on this.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Yeah, and there's an active sense to that as well, isn't there? It's actually salvation is about living out, not not about achieving something that's finished. Uh in that sense, which for me it's it's one of my things I keep coming back to. We were talking about eternal life on Sunday in our gatherings, um, looking at John, um, John 17, and just that often when we come to the scriptures, we hear things like that and we think at the end of life, or we think about what's going to happen after life, but bringing ideas like this back into our today life. Um, how are we working out our salvation using that that translation today and how and tomorrow and in all of our tomorrows?

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Yeah, how are we nurturing and fostering, creating this salvation?

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Like, yeah. And I mean, salvation's a loaded word as well for it is for people. So I acknowledge that, and even for myself, there's a journey of understanding. Um, and maybe that's that's my my work of fear and trembling as well, of just being open to ongoing knowledge and uh and the spirit working through scripture to continue to teach and shape me.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Um, yeah, absolutely, because I think one of the things if we read Paul's writing, he's constantly talking about us being shaped and molded and formed and empowered. It's not a here's the line, are you ready to jump over it? It's the spirit comes alongside us and shapes us and molds us and forms us and encourages us and helps us work out. It doesn't mean that if if God's involved, yep, a bit of fear and trembling because God's far bigger than me. But it's about this constant evolution of us and this molding and shaping of us.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Yes, yeah, yeah, indeed. It's the it's the spiritual life journey, it's the the walking the way of love and being open uh to how God will continue to transform us to be more like Christ.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

Yeah, yeah, and and I I really valued within this passage that to be more like Christ is not to take on power but to serve. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that that is such a hard challenge, but it's an exciting challenge to do.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Yeah, yeah, and to take us back on a full circle. I guess that that's why it struck me at the time of my ordination, where I was stepping into a role that was pretty scary, um, and a new relationship with uh with Christ and with the church and with people, and and thinking this is you know, there has to be humility here and there has to be an openness um to being led by the spirit uh in in in a role that is uh is new and fresh and uh a little bit scary.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

But that's a beautiful thing to perceive that ordination is not lifting you up above, but is calling you into service. That's right. Yeah. Phil, on that. People are interested in what you're doing in ministry nowadays. Where where are you and what are you doing? I called you Saint Phil of the North, but tell us a bit about what you're doing in ministry.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Well, I discovered that the Anglican Church have these great titles. They call some of their people like the Warden of the North or something like that. And I thought, wow, what what a title to have. Uh Game of Thrones, isn't it? That's exactly where I landed too. It's like Game of Thrones. Uh so St. Phil of the North, I've never been called till today. And uh I'm just wondering. I'll um I'll think about that one. But uh yeah, look, um, I'm now 10 years up here uh on the far north coast. Uh I'm currently the minister in placement at the Bangalore-Byron Bay Uniting Church congregation. And uh it's a beautiful community of people to be with. Um, we have locations that are about 15 minutes apart. Bangalore's beautiful little village in the hinterland. Byron Bay, as many people would know, is a tourist location right on the coast, a beautiful, beautiful beachside town. Um, and so yeah, ministering there. Uh, I've been in the region now, as I mentioned earlier, for 10 years, um, which has gone really quickly in one sense.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

And we're really asking the questions of how we continue to serve God in our communities uh and how we use the resources we've got. And we're also acknowledging the reality that our church um is aging and is smaller, and uh, how we can actually be sustainable with what we have. So it's been a lovely journey. Uh, we've just recently appointed uh two new pastors to work with people in the first third of life, and uh that's been really exciting because we've got a great footprint with families and children in Bangalore, and uh so that's that's been really um exciting me. There was a long process of applying for funding for that role, and uh we received a synod growth fund to enable that for five years, so that's really exciting, and uh in Byron Bay, we've been considering a redevelopment uh on our site, and uh that that's in its early stages, but that's brought some hope and life and energy to people. Um, Byron Bay has some really big challenges. So um I every Sunday morning when I uh arrive at church, I really just don't know what to expect. So Sunday just gone, there was someone sleeping across the front door. We have rough sleepers under our verandas all the time, people in vents camped there. So it has some real social challenges, and we're trying to see what we can do to minister to the volume.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

A redevelopment Byron, are you putting a cafe in there?

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Well, you know me and how I like to swim. I was thinking a lap pool on the top, yeah. And uh and and uh access that, but yeah, yeah, the the plans do include a cafe, although we do have a lot of cafes in Byron. There are a fair few, but we do see that as a wonderful opportunity for connecting with people. Uh we have a thriving op shop as well, which is one of our ways of connecting with people in the community and also vulnerable people. Yeah. So we're we're looking at some sort of little precinct that will connect those um aspects of our ministry together and enable um you know more connections.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

It's a fascinating community, isn't it? Because it has enormous wealth and enormous poverty in one space. Yeah, it's that fascinating combination.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

It really is. And I don't think many people yet know that Byron Bay had the highest um number of rough sleepers in the state uh last year. Um they did the street count. Um, it um Sydney, you know, Sydney has held it for years. If you think of it as being like a ladder, uh they've been the top. And then uh Byron Bay went past them last year, but then they they moved back up to the top. So I don't know that you ever really want to be anywhere near the top of that ladder, but it shows that, yeah, as you said, we have some very wealthy people, um, some quite famous people, as you probably know as well. And then we have some people that are really just um on the margins and struggling.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

And Phil, let's face it, if you are a rough sleeper, would you want to be in the middle of Sydney or in Byron Bay?

SPEAKER_00 33:28

Well, the the weather up here can be quite good, although we've just had a um another one of the East Coast lows hit and uh some flash flooding overnight, and uh yeah, it uh it does rain a lot, so um it it can be quite problematic for rough sleepers in that way, but uh yeah, there's yeah, it is a bit tricky.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Phil, we probably should draw towards a close, but is there any more on the Philippians passage that you would want to draw out? You see, I come to you for wisdom.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

Uh look, I I think Paul he he uses the phrase gospel so much in his writing. Um and I I couldn't help but but see that in the openings of of this letter and be reminded of that, this idea of the good news that we carry, um, and his desire to share that good news. Um and many people, um, scholars would say, you know, the Christ Him actually uh at that time the good news was that Jesus is Lord. Um, Caesar isn't Lord, Jesus is Lord. And so, in one sense, you know, this is another example of Paul sharing what he believes is really good news for the whole world. Um, and for me, uh, I I just find it so important for us as a church um and as people of faith to rediscover that good news.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Uh and I hope that's a word that might reach to people listening today. That, you know, if if you've known this news about Jesus since you were really young, or if you've just discovered this news about Jesus, let's remember that it is really, really good news. Yeah. It's it's it brings us joy. And Paul talks about joy in this letter as well. Um, and and it's an opportunity for us to be reminded that God, the God of love, uh, sent Christ into the world and that that can bring us joy.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

I think it's really important to hear that the humility and the service of others that Paul is calling for here is not to diminish us and to make us suffer. It is actually, it lifts us up and it raises us up in the same way. Yeah, like it's a it's a joyful thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Yeah, yeah. And how can we find joy in the midst of our suffering is is the big question, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 35:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

I believe that we can and God can lead us in those places through God's presence with us in the sufferings, yeah, reminding us of the joy that we carry in the spirit.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Saint Phil of the North, it has been fantastic to have you with us. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

Great to catch up with you too.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

Yeah. Now, just for my just for those that are listening, um, things that you wanted to know about because just the notices for the church. One is this Saturday, we're playing our part in Australia Praise, and there's going to be a prayer meeting at our church from 10 to 12. Anyone's welcome along. We're sharing with Grace Baptists in that. So anyone that wants to come to that this Saturday. And then the other thing is the the weekend after. So I think it's Saturday, the 30th of May, is the Repair Cafe and also the Taise service. And on the 31st we have in the evening a reconciliation service. So as a part of that, there's the morning services as normal, but we're having um a reconciliation service because it's a part of reconciliation week starting uh in the middle of that week. So there's some of the things that are happening here at Terregor through that time. Thank you so so much.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Okay, talk to you all next week.