TUC Talks
Every week the Rev Richard Harris and special guests delve deeper into the reading of the week.
TUC Talks
Pentecost: The Gift of the Holy Spirit
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This week Rev Richard Harris chats to special guest: Rev Gielie Loubser to delve deeper into this weeks Bible reading : Acts 1:1-8 and Acts 2:1-21;
G'day everyone. This is TUC Talks Again. Not convinced on the TUC Talks. Anyway, we'll give it a try. I really should be accommodating it by now. Um everyone, today I have the great pleasure of having Chili. Now, is that the way is that the correct way to pronounce your name? You did a marvelous job, Richard.
SPEAKER_00The majority of Aussies are struggling with the sound. And you did just perfectly.
SPEAKER_01So everyone, Chili is the minister at Thornley Hillcrest Uniting Church. And he's also at the moment acting in 30% capacity as the Presbytery Minister. Um, so it is wonderful to have you today. Um, everyone, we are looking at the readings that we did on the 24th of um May, and it is so it is Acts 1, 1 to 8 and Acts 2, 1 to 21, was what we did on Sunday. We also on Sunday had a little bit about Philippians, but we're not going to be looking at that. Um, so Kelly, did you play with um Pentecost as well with your church on Sunday?
SPEAKER_00Yes, we were all in red and playing along with Pentecost, yes.
SPEAKER_01Fantastic, fantastic. And were you looking at the um the same Acts reading 1 to 21?
SPEAKER_00No, I actually deviated from the lectionaries and I did um John 16, where Jesus tried to explain to the disciples what's the work of the spirit. So we we um focused on the work of the spirit, um, but I also had a look at um Acts 1 and 2 because that's a classic story.
SPEAKER_01It really is the classic story, isn't it? Pentecost is they talk about it being the birth of the church, don't they?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, birthday of the church. We didn't have cake yesterday, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_01Oh, do you do cake at your church sometimes?
SPEAKER_00Uh only slices. Not but not even slices yesterday, it was just dry cookies.
SPEAKER_01Uh so one of the things that I looked at this week with Acts, um, particularly the Pentecost reading itself, the Acts chapter two part, I was fascinated with the connection between Easter and Passover and Pentecost and Shavolt. Now, I don't know if I've spelt I've pronounced that correctly. But have you ever looked at that before?
SPEAKER_00No, but you warned me before this podcast that you've got to talk about that Hebrew word. So I did a bit of reading on that, but I never made that connection yet.
SPEAKER_01Well, for me, it was fascinating because what one of the things that I talked about on Sunday is that that um Passover is the great saving act of the Hebrew people in the Old Testament, of rescuing them from Egypt. And and that that that great saving act for us as Christians, the great saving act was the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And Passover and Easter are actually at the same time. So the Hebrew people celebrate Passover at the same time that we celebrate Easter, because Jesus was heading into Jerusalem for Passover, and then 50 days later at Pentecost, the Hebrew people are celebrating Shavolt, which is the giving of the law, and which is the foundation of the way that they live. And for us, the giving of the spirit is the foundation of our relationship with God, was one of the things that I was looking at.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And um for me, it is a new law that's been given through the spirit as well. And I I was um also thinking about the whole thing about law and how does the law or the commandments play out in our relationship with people, with Christ. Um yeah, what's the role and what's the difference with now that we are in in the time of the Holy Spirit? That that's an interesting conversation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because I suppose I always talk about it being rather than the law, it's a relationship now. And so, in a sense, that relationship governs our behavior rather than the rules.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I will explain it to my boys that there's a difference between rules and values, and you you you use uh the word relationship as well, and I that's what I use with values. Um, rules is something you can put up against your wall in in your house or wherever you want to do that, and um value and and then you can walk away from that and forget about it. But values is in you, and you can't walk away from values, and the other thing is laws need to be enforced. We call the law enforcement. Um, and uh with values, it's it's this other enforcer on values, and that's why I see value spirit comes in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so in a sense, a value is something that's a bit more innate, it's a bit more embedded in us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you can't walk away from values, is who you are, it's it's being things, it's not doing things.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Ah, so in a sense, yeah, I like that image because it the the image of the spirit it being a part of us and guiding us and influencing us actually allows us. That was one of the things that I really loved about playing with this image of the of Pentecost, you know, Passover, Passover and Easter, and then Pentecost and Chivalt. Is that that we actually live God God in a sense constantly is trying to help us draw closer and move beyond a set of rules into something far deeper and far more embedded in who we are.
SPEAKER_00That is so true. Um, just want to add that also to the exekiel um text that says I'm gonna remove your hearts of stone and put the hearts of flesh on that. And I'll write my commandments on your heart now, not not on tablets anymore. And that's a thing that's allowing the relationship, that's allowing drawing closer. Um, even um, and I I like the the whole idea of of closeness in that. Um, if you the whole story about the law and receiving the law on the mountain is about distance. They couldn't get onto the mountain, there were barriers when Moses came down. There were distance between him and other people. Um, he was shining, they couldn't look at him. It's all just distance. So, in a in a way, the law was given in uh remote setting. Um, but but this is coming personally, the spirit coming on us, um poured out in us a very personal story, whole different story. Um very different.
SPEAKER_01That yeah, like it could that that embeddedness is because one of the things that I mentioned on Sunday is that the law it was not given to punish us, it was given as a foundation of the way that we live in relationship with God. And if you look at it, the Ten Commandments, one of the things that is written there is that these are given so that they will live well in the land, like you know, live this way, and your life will be its best, and that God gives us the spirit so that we may be live our life at its best.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I remember a one of my professors back in seminary, uh, and that that was a penny dropping for me. He said, uh the Ten Commandments are just ten good uh advisors on a happy life. And in being happy in in the parameters of the commandments, it's also bringing us closer to God because in our happiness is where we are connecting to God as well. God wants to see us fulfilled in that. So in a way, the law never wanted to create the distance. I don't want to degrade the law, it is there, but the way we are doing it is in a way um trying to avoid or just obey or put it out there, put it against our walls.
SPEAKER_01Ah yes, yeah. One of the things that I played with this week as well is that the image that the coming of the spirit into us actually means that God is working with us on our mission and our task. Um I was actually discussing how in the first passage Jesus gives instructions to the disciples to wait. You know, wait in Jerusalem until the Spirit comes. But then he also is giving them instruction of then go out and to all the world, like you know, go to go to um Israel and then beyond that to all of the world, to the ends of the earth is the Great Commission. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um first to Judea, then to I think it was Samaria, and then yeah, wherever it is, and to the ends of the earth. Yeah, let's face it, we're in Australia, we are the ends of the earth compared to compared to the Middle East. But when the Spirit comes, in a sense, the ends of the earth were in Jerusalem. There were people from all around the known world that were in Jerusalem. And so when the spirit enabled those people to go out and speak, they were already speaking to the mission to the ends of the earth because they were already there in Jerusalem at the time.
SPEAKER_00Yes, coming back to what you said, the the spirit is supporting us in our mission or coming along us in our mission. And the one thing that's really keeping me busy this in this time of Pentecost is what was the first impact of the spirit on the followers of Jesus when they were waiting there? The first impact, the power that they were waiting for was different languages, and it's not uh uh a heavenly language, it was spoken languages, it was just normal languages like uh we could um speak maybe uh Greek or whatever the languages of the times, so and that's making me think about uh first of all, the mission of the church is then always to connect with other people and it's giving us ways or empower us to connect with people, but then on their terms and conditions, on their language, it's they don't need to learn our language, we need to learn their language, and Paul will say for the Greek, we maybe can be we need to become the Greek, and for the free, the free, and for the slave, the slave. It is is that that mission, our mission is always to go on onto their turf in their context, their realities, their languages. Yeah, that's helping me.
SPEAKER_01Well, particularly like for you being someone that would have been an Afrikaan speaker stepping into our world, hearing something in your own language must lift your spirit a little bit, so must make you a little bit more comfortable and confident and lift you a little.
SPEAKER_00I uh spent some time uh this weekend with with Afrikan-speaking people, and this one lady in a way expressed uh a need to just worship in a mother tongue, um, in a birth language. It is as if there's a sentiment towards that, um uh expression of emotion that's only in your mother tongue. And and it's I think it's part of this, what happened here at Pentecost is giving the followers of Jesus the ability to speak in other people's hearts, to to help them with expressions of love or admiration or adoration or stuff, and and that is so so important.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it's not actually so, in a sense, the the giving of this ability to actually speak in other languages is actually allowing the disciples to speak to the hearts of people, not just to their heads.
SPEAKER_00Exactly, yes. And I I want to see language in the broadest sense of the word. Um, it's more than just the thing we speak, it is also a language, it's also a culture, it is also um body language, it's it's it's a language in the biggest sense. And and when we think mission, and say what will be the language of youth, for instance, in our mission? That's different from the language of the adults, or what will be the language of the lonely? What will be the language and and just to become aware of the different languages that we are speaking? Um, you are speaking a different language when you are got your repair cafe at church. That's a specific language you're speaking there, and we need to become wise with our languages and try to adopt new languages for the people out there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, because that's one of the great powers of this story is that people hear and understand from their from their base.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And it it really is a very powerful, powerful image.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So uh just I think it's it's more challenging than we want to admit. Um, we've got specific terms and conditions. There's always boundaries, there's always terms and conditions for our mission and and for our work and for our involvement wherever. And I think this is challenging us to see where's the boundaries, where's the language barriers, language in the biggest sense of the word, um, that we say, oh, it's uh this is lost in translation. Um, we we can't do that. That's uh one step too far. And and the spirit is challenging us to say, I will empower you to really reach out to people in their languages. Um all of us got our boundaries in in how we connect to other people, and and the spirit is challenging us to say, I will break down that boundaries.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yes, yeah. I I do like I do like that. In a sense, for me, one of the things that I was emphasizing quite a lot is that that that the spirit works alongside us in our mission. And you know, as I was saying a minute ago, that these people, when they their task for going to the ends of the world was literally just walk outside their door, and the ends of the world were there. But as we go into the rest of the New Testament, we see that they live out that mission by actually traveling to all those places and talking to all those people, and and that the spirit is leading them. I I love I'm I'm I'm getting to like Paul more and more, may I say, as I read him. Sometimes he just sometimes he can be a tad strident, but but I do like the way that he talks about the spirit leading him in each step of his ministry. You know, he was doing this and he felt the spirit's lead to go to there. And in the in a sense, the spirit guides him in all of his mission and ministry.
SPEAKER_00It's interesting. Um, you're saying come in, come along us um or join us in a mission, but is sometimes also starting the mission and invites us in. And that's the whole thing of the mission dei, is that we are just uh joining the mission of God. Um I think that's just an uh other different way of saying what you're saying. Um, but sometimes I think it's important to understand it is the spirit's mission. So nobody and none of the followers prayed, um, spirit, just please give me this language or that language. That the spirit decided who you want to empower with what. Um, and and and therefore I I think it's important to know even when we do our mission planning, it's impossible to put anything on that if it's not start already started by the spirit and the spirit inviting us in.
SPEAKER_01That's really interesting that it is it is the spirit's mission that we do, not ours. And therefore, we're actually following what the spirit's call is. Not I wonder if that's a difference between law-led and spirit-led. Do you know what I mean? Like the law-led would be, well, here's an instruction, and I go and do it. Where the spirit-led is God embedded within us and God leading us and walking with us in the task. So it's not just a set of rules and instructions that we follow, but it is something that is a part of us that we live out.
SPEAKER_00Yes, um, and to apply that on mission, it is that we can sometimes have a cookie-cutter approach to mission. Yes, every church or every person needs to do this and this, and we've got a set of um achievements uh or goals in that every church needs to have a youth ministry. Maybe not. Maybe it is a law-like mission, and we need to have a spirit-led mission, and that's part of my challenge is to go and sit next to congregations and help them um listen to the spirit and see what's unique to them and not do this cookie-cutter mission planning.
SPEAKER_01I can remember when I was a youth worker a long time ago in Wollango, and there was a really big church nearby, and people were saying, Well, we need to try and do a ministry like theirs. And and my answer was, but that's just gonna turn us into being a poor impersonation of their ministry. And let's face it, if that's the ministry they want, they're gonna go to them, they're not gonna go to the church that's doing a poor inter poor interpretation of it. You know, for us, we need to find our authentic ministry that God is calling us to and to live that out and to live that out well.
SPEAKER_00And I also want to uh apply that personally, we are talking mission as a church, uh, but I think our listeners or some people will listen in here and and do that for their own lives as well. And when we are doing that mission in our own lives and say, where where am I involved in the kingdom of God? Um, we can also do the the cookie cutter um mindset on that, and that's going with a lot of guilt. It's causing guilt for us because now you see your neighbor doing a lot for the environment or for Helpless people, or for DV, or whatever, and you you may think, Oh, I need to duplicate that, but that's not your calling, that's not where the spirit is leading you, and that's the important thing, and also the the liberating thing that we can do that personally with the spirit for each of us to understand where do we want to do, and it's also a daily thing, it's not even you can't do that year planning. Uh maybe you can with the spirit, but it's also daily planning, it's a momentary planning.
SPEAKER_01One of the things that I really liked in this passage, and I was talking about on Sunday, is that it was talking with us about how when when he's quoting Joel, it's uh it's about the spirit will be there for all people, men and women, slaves and free, that all people the spirit will be upon. Young and old, young and old, and like we we hear that and we think of that, and we because I think we're so we know it so well that we don't actually realize the shock of what it is saying, because let's face it, the the culture was a reasonably misogynistic culture, and Roman culture around it was also reasonably misogynistic, and to say that the spirit is there for men and women was very powerful, yeah. And and and to say that it was there for slaves as well as free people, it's it's egalitarian, isn't it? It's um yeah, it's incredibly egalitarian.
SPEAKER_00It is, and what I like about um that passage is when they give the functions to the different people, they will say the young people, uh boys and girls, will be the prophets, and the older people will start dreaming. Now, if you would um just think about what's the job of the elders, they want need to show the way, give direction. They will be the prophets, and the young people will start dreaming of what's possible and they dream about the future, but this it's turning it upside down again, and and say the the young people will guide us and will start something new about the future for the oldies, they will start dreaming. How powerful is that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I one of the things that I was playing with, with the young men will dream, um, old men will dream dreams and young men will see visions, is that for both of them, they are looking beyond their situation. Like if we dream about something, we dream about the future. We dream about, you know, I we dream about what we can do or or where we might go. I don't know about you, but if sometimes if I'm thinking about a new project, I might wake up in the night and think, oh, I could do that. And you know, that's that's me dreaming, and and visionary people will pick that up and will say, and this is how we'll do it. Yeah, dreams and visions are always moving us beyond the moment, they're never and the spirit, in a sense, leads us beyond the moment. The spirit doesn't sort of say, Okay, I've given you some gifts so that you can sit back and be comfortable and do nothing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it is as if the spirit is one step ahead, just always one step ahead.
SPEAKER_01Yes, calling us, inviting us, yeah, leading us on to the next leading us on, yes. It's always a movement of forward, it's not stopping where we are. It is empowering at the end of the passage, it actually says, and everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. What did you pick up with that? What what what did you play when it comes to that line? Like all who call on the Lord will be saved. Is it uh did you did you pick up on and play with anything around that at all?
SPEAKER_00It's just a beautiful promise, isn't it? It is the invitation, it is the inclusion, it is um, and was so important for that um setting. Um because they used they were um in scarcity. Um they got boundaries set up, and this is just um ripping everything apart and say everybody, everybody's just opening it up, and opening it up with the the biggest promise of being of saving, of deliberation, salvation. It is it's such an important verse that if we haven't had that at that stage, it will really hinder the church in growing, but because it started off there and with that mindset, um, it it opened up things, and and the disciples struggled with that, they they couldn't open it up. Um, Peter needs to have a vision um and and receive from God the understanding that there's no um pure unpure in in God, there's no boundaries here, it's only in the spirit we are um saved, we can we will call on upon the Lord.
SPEAKER_01So, yes, it's it's a very important isn't it interesting that that Peter has Peter stands up and preaches here and quotes this prophet Joel, and he's the one it's out of his mouth that the line, you know, God's spirit will come down on men and women, slaves and free, and then he says, and then all who call on the Lord will be saved, but he still needs that vision to actually wake him up to what that means, you know. Yeah, and I wonder sometimes if we actually say stuff with such confidence, don't we still need God to sort of kick us a little bit to actually realize what we're saying needs to be put into practice?
SPEAKER_00I think that's a curse of the preacher. Yeah, we need to listen to our own sermons. Oh, I'd hate to listen to my own sermons. Yeah, I can't do that. But just to come back to that, the interesting fact, um, Richard, is when Peter received that vision with the cloth uh coming from from above with all the different animals in there, the the place he received that is the similar place, Jopper, where um Jonah was sent to Nineveh. Oh so it's in a way it's all started there because that is a very important story in the Old Testament, because it's the first time where people start to understand that this is not just for one ethnic group, but it's actually for everybody. And in that similar spot, that little coastal town that's still there, and the the the church of Saint Peter is built there on that spot. If you just I I had the promise of being there, if you just walk five 50 meters um to the back of that church, you see the uh the the sea where where um Jonah was sent off from and then spit out again. It all happened in a similar spot, as as if people are really struggling to understand that this is really for everybody.
SPEAKER_01I had never made that connection. So the story of Jonah is based out of the starts at Joppa, and that's where where Peter gets that Cornelius vision. Exactly. Similar place. Isn't it interesting? Which really comes back right, brings us full circle back to the start. It seems like God constantly uses the imagery from the past to speak to us as Christians today. You know, so the saving act of Passover for us, we see the saving act of Jesus dying on the cross and rising again. And then the empowering how to live the life of a Hebrew person in the giving of the law for us is the empowering act of receiving the spirit so that we may live out our faith in the spirit. And then the the word to Jonah about everyone is acceptable to God in the Old Testament story of Jonah and the whale becomes the story of everyone is acceptable to God in Peter's vision. Again and again and again, God picks up the old story and reinterprets it for us as Christians in the modern day world. That's a very powerful thing.
SPEAKER_00It is very, very powerful. And I think we who've got the spirit needs to look at the modern versions of that around us as well, and see where are we struggling to include and what is the way, how do we exclude what's happening around us? How are we struggling to follow the prompting of the spirit? It will be all around us as well. You look at that.
SPEAKER_01I wonder what the next revelation of inclusion is. You know, what's God speaking to us from Jopper about this time around? About how we should be including people and including more.
SPEAKER_00That's always a I just wondered if that flotilla was on its way to Jopper. Um, but I don't want to go there. So please delete this from the podcast.
SPEAKER_01That is a fantastic question, isn't it? Yeah. That has been very interesting to think. Is there anything else that you would want to draw out from this Pentecost story?
SPEAKER_00I think um it is for me the Pentecost story is always a comfort and an challenge. It is it's sitting so well with us and it's also disturbing us in the same way. And I um it is so great to be able to receive that power so special that the God's presence is in us, but it's always sending us out. It's it's never, it's both, it's always both the the consolation and the desolation. Um it's it's always within us, and I think we need to acknowledge that. Yeah, uh, we need to wait for for that um consolation and the disruption uh every time, and then then the movement will be there. It's like breathing in and out, in and out. That's the life of the church that will bring us together and send us out, and bring us together and send us us and help us and comfort us and challenge us and disrupt us. And I see this um in this movement as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like for me, we're actually going to be going on for another five weeks now, looking at the Holy Spirit at work in our lives. So we're doing a series over the next little while of the Holy Spirit at work within us, um, trying to help our congregation. So that's sort of one of the next bits we're doing is looking at what what are our gifts in the spirit today and and how do we serve? Because one of the things that the spirit does, and it's in this passage and it's and it's all through the New Testament, the Spirit equips us to serve and to be in ministry. It doesn't just equip us to be happy and comfortable where we are, the spirit is always pushing us on.
SPEAKER_00But it's starting with a confirmation, yes, it's starting with the gifts or the fruit or the power or the presence of the spirit, it's always starting there and then will send us out.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah, yes, that is fantastic. Now, Hilly, is there anything else that you would want to say before we sort of we've been chatting for about 40 minutes now? Is there anything else that you would want to just say as we draw to a conclusion?
SPEAKER_00No, thank you very much for the discussion. It was lovely talking about that. I learned a lot, Richard, and uh yes, may God bless you in your ministry.
SPEAKER_01No, we learn a lot too. Um, just to let people know that are listening to the podcast about what's happening in the life of Terragore Uniting over the next little bit. Um, so this weekend we've got the Repair Cafe and there is also the Taise service, and we've got the series coming, the series looking at the Holy Spirit um over the next little while. And this coming Sunday, our evening service, it's reconciliation week this week coming. And we are going to have um a service focusing on reconciliation as a part of our evening service this coming Sunday. So that's some of the things that are happening in Terrible Uniting Church. Um, Kirley, thank you so much for being a part of the conversation today.
SPEAKER_00It was a great privilege. Thanks, Richard.
SPEAKER_01Okay, everyone. We'll talk to you next week in the TUC Talks. Talk to you later. God bless you.