Spiritual gifts

This week, Rev Richard Harris sits down with Rev Denis Towner to discuss this week's reading - Corinthians chapter 12:1-31

#church #bible #terrigal #corinthians

Transcript

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Hello everyone. It's another week of TUC Talks, and today I have the absolute privilege of sitting with Saint Dennis Towner. Hello, Dennis. Thank you, Richard, and welcome to our place. It's fantastic. It's a very chilly day, but uh it's nice and warm in here. Lovely to come to your place to record today. Dennis, we're going to be recording and talking about Sunday, the 31st of May. Yep. And we're going to be looking at the reading, which is 1 Corinthians chapter 12. That's the one. Yep. The 31st of May. Did you know that there was um two full moons? It was a blue moon. I didn't know that. It was a blue moon on the 31st of May. And apparently the moon is the furthest away from the earth that it gets. Oh, really? Yeah. Piece of trivia for you before we start. Yeah. So everyone, the reading was 1 Corinthians chapter 12, and it was all of chapter 12. And that was where Paul was describing that there are spiritual gifts. Everyone has a spiritual gift, he was saying, and it's a bit like the way the body works together. We're meant to work together. And uh Corinth Corinthian congregation was a real problem for Paul because they got over excited. And uh they uh threw the baby out with the bath water, I suppose you could say. And uh uh there were all sorts of problems about the community, about their uh cohesion, about their belonging together uh as a community, and it was largely because the way they exploited the gifts that the Spirit gave them. Yeah, it does seem like they're a fairly tense community when Paul is writing to them, isn't it aren't they? Yeah. But the Corinth itself was a a very fascinating community because it it uh it has a history of being destroyed by everybody who ruled them centuries before. And when we visited there, it's a ruin now uh a few years ago. Anyway, um there were sailors because there's a narrow isthmus between the mainland and Peloponnese, the b big bottom bit where Corinth is, and so for trade the ships had to come to the port on the uh western side, uh uh sorry, the uh the western side, and then the they had to download it and had to be carried by carts over to the other side of the isthmus when there was another port. Yes, because it would take a it would take like a week or more's travel off, wouldn't it? It was a long travel out around the peninsula. To go around was dangerous, so they had to go. Now in the 19th century, they put a uh a canal through there. So there is a canal through. Anyway, there were warfys and sailors and uh prostitutes and it was a fairly rough little world. A very fascinating community. Yeah, so it was a fairly rough little world that the Corinth Church was in. Yes. And so and and I suppose one of the things for the Roman world was it was quite hierarchical, wasn't it? There was the powerful people and the less powerful people. And so I suppose that if that was pl playing out in the church, there would have been people would have been clamoring for being the most powerful in the church community. Specific gifts were discerned as marking you as the elite. And so uh some people would say, You're nobody's no we're the real church Yeah, we're the most important. We have the most demonstrative gifts. Yes. Yeah. Which is so, in a sense, with that kind of context, you can see why Paul is writing the way he is, of course. Oh yes. Because he's he's very, very resolute that this one of the things that I like describing the church as, or what Paul tries to describe the church as is egalitarian. Everybody was Everybody's important, everybody's welcome, everybody belongs to Christ. Yeah. And you can't take that away. And if we live that out in the church today, that means that everyone in our congregation is equal and valuable and important. You know what? I I went to R Repair Cafe. Yes, and I sat with Michael and uh along came Janet Seith. He brings her from Tarragog Glenn, uh, and uh uh she and Ann go back from when I was the minister here. She wasn't part of our congregation, she was a Christian, uh and but she and uh and Anne cooperated in a uh project to support uh a an orphan from overseas. Anyway, she made an important comment which is relevant to what we're talking about. She said, I love coming to this church. You feel included, you feel welcome, and there's service. Yeah. There's a chance to serve. Yeah, you get a chance to serve. Well, because that's one of the things that one of the opening lines from the chapter 12 passage is that Paul says there are a variety of gifts, and they are there to be given to us to serve. Yeah. Each one has its own corresponding service. Corresponding service. And it's really important that we say that from the start, that the gifts are given to serve. Yep. They're not given to sort of say that I am more precious or I am more special or I am more powerful. They are all given to serve. So so that's the that's a good starting point for this whole conversation that in Paul is doing here. He's basically saying, you know, we all get gifts, but they are all to serve. Yeah. Which fits with a lot of the other, like when we were looking at Philippians, Paul starts by calling himself a slave to Christ. Yes. And then in the document he talks about how Christ was a slave to us. Yeah. And and in a sense, that theme is followed in Corinthians with there is a service for us. Yeah. And he lists a few of them, well, quite a good list of them. Uh the the uh service, the opportunities, uh with the cor their corresponding gift. Yeah. One of the things that I'm I'm probably going to talk about it more over the six weeks of looking at the gifts of the spirit. One of the things that I'm quite passionate about is that we start looking at the gifts of the spirit in the scriptures, and we almost try and make a definitive list of the gifts. You know, there are this many gifts, and here they are, and which one do you have? Yeah. But the truth of it is there are so many gifts, and we can't name them all. You know, um, Sharon the other day that works with me on the pizzas was saying, Richard, I, you know, I I hope that my spiritual gift comes up as pizzas because otherwise I'm gonna have to be doing two or three things around the church rather than just this one. You know, like yeah, she she has a real gift in helping out with that. She does so many other things as well. But I actually think the coordinating and organizing of the pizzas, it is a gift. Yeah. You know, I sometimes we try and turn spiritual gifts into a more spiritual thing than the practical thing that it might be. Yes. And uh the early days of the charismatic movement in Australia, I guess in some other countries too, was there's so much excitement about the uh super gifts, if you like. And and that led to confusion in some congregations. It also led to many ministers saying, we don't want anything like that around our our church, thank you. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Well, they're doing exactly what the Corinthian church was doing, weren't they? People trying to say, well, my gift is more special. And I know there is a better way of saying that in English. You know, but but no one's gift is more important or more special. Yeah. And uh when I was the minister here uh yeah it was Gordon Dicker, another minister and I were, we went uh to Bathurst to a uh seminar thing that was jointly between the Anglican uh Board of Education and the Joint our Joint Board of Education. And the speaker was an American Episcopal priest. Oh yes. James Fan Hagen the Third. Though he was very down to earth. Was he? And I remember one thing that he said. He said, this was right near the end of this of the weekend. The Lord has distributed in each congregation of his people sufficient gifts for that congregation to be effective in its mission. Yes. Yeah. And like that's really important because the the gifts, if God gives us gifts to be used, if we don't use them in some way, the church's ministry is diminished. That's right. Yeah. You know, if if we refuse to play our part, because that Paul, after the after the list of gifts, he goes on to talk about how the gifts function like a body. Yeah, yes. And that that without all the bits, you are not able to function at your best. I love the the uh imagery he uses for that. Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, if if everyone wanted to be an I, how would we hear? Yeah, yeah. And because that because sometimes we actually look at the the big and visible things and say that they are more important. But that actually confuses it. And he goes on, like Paul actually goes on in this passage, doesn't he, to actually emphasize that some of the more discreet gifts are actually the ones that we should honour deeply. Yes, you know, I he's he's referencing the body and sort of saying there are some things that shouldn't be shown in public, yeah, but they're still really important. Yes, yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a really powerful image that we can play with. You know, how do we how do we actually honour those gifts that people I was saying to the Tuesday congregation this week that in when I was in Dorigo as the minister at Dorigo, I had a member of my congregation who came to me very earnestly and said, Richard, I pray for you every day. And I knew that that wasn't a hollow statement at all, that that man earnestly mentioned my name and and prayed for me. Occasionally I think he might have prayed, and could you just help him get a bit more organized? His name wasn't Bruce Spine, isn't it? No, you know, like like he was, but he would earnestly pray for me every day. And and I'd you wouldn't have known it unless he told me, but that was a really powerful gift that he was holding. You know, that that sense of holding someone in prayer every day, it was a discreet gift, but it was a powerful gift. Yeah. So yes. The imagery of the body. Tell me what you think about the image of the body in this in this passage. Oh, uh, I think it's a very relevant. Uh uh how each part of the body is necessary and each part of the body needs uh the others. Yes. And uh I think this is one of the reasons why of all the churches I've served, Terrible remains to be my my favorite. And uh it was because people discovered their gifts and were given responsibility and used them. And and you can see some of those people like the Earps and uh and uh a few others uh uh around still, that uh uh uh when uh my mate Vernon Prouse did a locum here in between before you came, and he said, I don't know, Natty, they've got so many powerful women here. Yeah. I said, Yeah, I gave them the responsibility. It is one of those things of each of those people offering their service in different ways. Yes. Yep. Yeah. And and Paul really he drives that home in so many ways. So how do we f how do people find out what their gift is? Tell me what your thoughts are on on how people discern their gift. Oh mostly I think somebody else has got to tell them. Yeah. I think I think you I think you're good at that. I I really appreciate the way you do something uh uh uh in that way. Um does that mean that others have the responsibility of pointing out gifts to people? Like, do we need to have the responsibility of pointing that out to people? Well, I think we can bear in mind that if you see somebody else you know in the in the congregation and you think that they've got a gift that they're not aware of, gently tell them. Yeah. Because that encouragement actually can raise someone up to doing something that is important. Yeah. I hadn't thought of it like that. Yeah. Yeah. So so, in a sense, that and that's not just one person that has the gift of doing that. No. It's all that's that's a responsibility of us all to encourage each other to take up their gifts. I've I've got one other thing that I'd like to I still haven't been able satisfactorily resolve this question. What's the difference between a gift that we have by nature or by experience training and a gift of the spirit that comes out of the blue? Yeah. Is there are are the gifts just our natural abilities that God is putting to use through the spirit, or are there particular things that are bestowed on us? Yeah. Yeah. I haven't I haven't got an answer to that question. Oh dear. Except except uh when it happens, you'll know. Well, I because I think it's a both end kind of situation, isn't it? Like we some of our natural skills we should be using for for the betterment of others and purpose with his music skills. Yeah. Yep, and that is uh that is a talent that he has, but it's also a I th I think it's also a gift because it it nurtures worship and he has the skill to actually enhance worship. Yeah. Like because you can be really good at stuff, but sometimes being really good at stuff doesn't mean that you actually help others flourish. It can be you uh showing off and uh waiting for people appreciation, applause. Yeah. Yeah. So in a sense, if we can actually so it might even be that the spiritual gift might be taking one of our natural talents but helping others flourish through that talent. Yeah, but ultimately one of the things that is clear here, right through this passage, is that the gifts are about lifting others up. They're not about lifting you up, and therefore whatever your talent is, if it's being used as a spiritual gift, it is actually raising another up. Yeah. Through your ministry, how did you do that, Dennis? I mean I saw somebody that knew the Lord and uh showed some ability either I or Anne would affirm them. It was that affirmation of people, yeah, that affirming them. Yeah. And I do love one of the things that I'm really valued is the way that we encourage our children when they're doing their their child, the kids reading. And now that we've started a youth prayer on a Sunday morning, that where we've got people encouraging those kids when they play their part in worship. Yeah. And the and the singers. Yeah, well, when they do the singing too, like the kids do the singing. Yeah. The encouraging of others and lifting them up really can help things flourish. Yeah. For me, I always want to try and see what people's gifts and skills are so that they can so that we can find a place to use them as well. Because it sometimes we've actually I think sometimes when God gives a person a gift, it might actually be prompting the whole church how of a new area for us to explore or a new area for us to enter into in ministry because we might need to encourage people to actually exercise that gift. Um you know, in the repair cafe that we've started, that was really it started really small, but as people have offered their gifts and skills or their natural talents, it helps it flourish more and more because people are doing those things and bringing those talents along. And that helps. Yeah, we have a massive team nowadays for that repair cafe, and so many so many people from the community coming in and and experiencing it in a really positive way. Yeah. Which which is fantastic. Yep, too right. Yeah. What else would you want to pull out from this week's passage, Dennis? Is there any other things that you would want to be saying? I'm trying to think if there's anything in there that I haven't spotted. I think the uh the the process through the passage. I think we've ticked all the boxes. That that ig one of the things you were saying at the start about the tension in the Corinthian community. It's really interesting that Paul is so strong on the Jew or Greek Greek slave or free stuff in Corinthians, because he's really he's fighting against a culture, isn't he? Yes, oh very much so. He's fighting against the culture of the world in saying we can't accept this hierarchy kind of thing in the world around us. We need to actually receive the gifts from everyone else. Yep, yes. And and we might need to receive the gifts from people who are who we might perceive as less. You know, so if a slave woman came along and was offering a ministry, that would have been a real threat to a free man in in the Corinthian church. But he has to actually, we have to accept the gifts of others. It's a really important I was reading today uh uh an obituary for Judith Wright, the great poet. Oh yes. Yes, and uh fascinating lady. See I went to school at Wallamumbe. Yes. Uh my dad was the teacher there, and every year we'd get book prizes donated by Wallambi. One of the rich one or two of the rich Grazi is including Philip Arundel Wright, Judith's dad. Okay. So I had a vested interest in her. But one thing that it said about her, she was adamant about Aboriginal rights. Yes. And towards the end of her life, she got so incensed that she wrote this scorching letter and sent it to John Howard. Wow. Yep. About uh his policies towards Aborigines. Yeah. Yep. And I think the way things are going with One Nation, etc., we need Judith's voice again. We do need to be we do need to make sure that we hear all of our all of our community, don't we? That we actually lift up everyone in and and that does mean that we don't push someone down because of race, race or culture or gender. We can't actually sort of play the accidental hierarchy. No. But we and and we need to receive their gift as an equal. Like when so we when someone when someone offers you something, you need to receive it as a generous offer. Yeah. I know one time when I was doing a meals program, someone offered offered to sort of pay for something. They were a street person, they lived on the street. They offered to pay for something. And it was a real struggle because I thought you could use that money somewhere else, but at the same time it was a gift, it was a gift that they were offering. And and if we diminished them by saying no to that gift, then we diminished their power in that situation. We need to accept what that person offers and accept what they give. Yeah. Which which I think is that body of Christ image. Like if we if all the parts of the body are there, we need to accept what the other parts offer. I don't like accepting this as payment for what we've given you, but I'm happy to accept it from you as a gift to support someone else. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Now I did love that Patty was working hard on Sunday to preach for us. The image of the jigsaw puzzle I thought was a really helpful one, wasn't it? That you couldn't see the picture when it was partially completed. It was when every piece was in the puzzle that you could see it more fully. And every one of us is one of the pieces of our church. Well, Dennis, thank you very much for being a part of the conversation today. Thank you. My privilege. Nothing else you wanted to say? No, I don't think so. Ah. Well, now, as far as notices for the life of our church go, I think is it 24th, Saturday, the 24th? I think whatever the Saturday is around there, I think it might be the 24th, is the Saturday that we're doing the um shape workshop at church. Get your get let us know if you're coming to that because that's going to be where we explore the gifts of the Spirit a bit more deeply. Right. Um The other stuff that's happening, at the end of June, we are looking at putting on a um, or is it the end of July? End of June, I think it is. We've got coffee and cars. Remember last year we had a few cars that came along to church and people were able to look at a couple of hot rods and a couple of classy cars. We've got that on again. So if you've got a car that is quite exceptional that you want to offer to the offer to bring along an exhibit at the coffee and cars, let us know so that we can work out which cars we got. I'm afraid all I've got left now are the matchboxes. The matchbox car set. That is very impressive. One of the people that actually has a hot rod in our congregation. That hot rod actually came out as a Hot Wheels, um as a Hot Wheels model, I think it was. I don't know if it was Hot Wheels, it was one of those car models, and yeah, it was his car that was done as a model. Wow. Yeah, it's very impressive. I think they're the key things in the notices at the moment. But um thank you very much, everyone, for listening to TUC Talks today. Mary is celebrating her 80th. Oh, that is a very special moment. Yeah, that's this Saturday. Yep. Yeah. Well, everyone, um, I hope you can join us as we continue on in worship over the next few weeks. Well, longer than that, but as we look at the gifts of the Spirit. And remember, if you've ever got a question in the service that you want to ask about the service or the sermon, if you send me an email, we will try to get to it in the next TUC Talks podcast. But um, thank you very much for keeping watch. And Dennis Towner, thank you so much for being the guest. Thanks for having me. Bye. Bye.