The fruits of the Spirit

This week Rev Richard Harris is special guest, Rev Dr Michael Earl to discuss this weeks readings :
Galatians 5:16-23
Ephesians 4:17-32

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Okay, g'day everyone. Here we are with another TUC Talks. Yes, the Ackerman, Terrigo Uniting Church. Warming to the name. Um, today I have the great pleasure of the Reverend Doctor Michael Earle. The doctor is not medicine, it's actually theology, and he is one of the lecturers at the Theological College. Hello, Michael. Hello, Richard. Good to be with you. It's excellent to have you here. Doctorate kind of study. What did you study?

SPEAKER_00 0:39

What did I study? Yeah. I studied in short terms ordination theology. So uh thinking about um yeah, what it what it means to be ordained and um how the church has understood it and uh how it works out in practice.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Oh wow. Ordination theology.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

So the apostolic succession stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Yeah, that's part of it. Um and yeah, a whole whole lot of other things as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

But yeah. Everyone, the apostolic succession is like the so it's a bit like a daisy chain, you know. The the the apostles prayed for people that prayed for people that prayed for people that passed the spirit along all the way down. Well, you I heard that when the United Church came into being, that the Presbyterians were a little bit fluffy compared to the Methodists, and they thought about getting someone from the Church of South India to come and pray for us. Is that right? Apparently, right, you know, so to make sure that Apostolic was under control.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Yeah, yeah, indeed. Yeah, they decided not to.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Yeah. Well, Michael, thank you so much for doing this. Everyone, we're looking at what we preached on for Sunday, the 21st of June, and it was Ephesians chapter 4, 17 to 32, and Galatians chapter 5, 16 to 23. Um so Michael, uh, look, I I had a bit of a rant on Sunday, so I did my sermon time. These are two interesting passages. We've been going through spiritual gifts in our church, looking at what are the gifts of the spirit and what's that mean. But the thing that I found fascinating at the start of this passage is Paul so bound up in this is what I want to be like, but I'm just not like it. This is what I need to achieve, but then I get tempted into other things. Paul really seems torn apart in this passage, doesn't he?

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Which one are you talking about here, Richard? The Ephesians one. All right, I'll just flip over there. Yeah, look, um, it's a constant theme, I think, through through Paul's writings, uh, where there's a wrestle, there's an internal wrestle going on uh for him between uh how he knows or thinks he should be uh under the guidance and auspice and power of the spirit, uh, and then what he actually sees in in the mirror, as it were, you know, in the actual reflection of who he is. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Like it's a real tension that sits there for him of this uh like at the start of the passage, it's this is what I want to be, but then my human nature takes over, and I end up in this kind of mess. I couldn't live with that kind of tension that Paul goes through because he really is tearing himself apart in this passage, I find. You know, that sort of yeah. I think we all live with a bit of that kind of tension of this is what we really want to achieve, but then we we miss the mark.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Yeah, I think we do. I think it's it's part of of human nature because we are still uh living in the flesh, as it were, we're still subject to, you know, the normal conditions of human life, of our fragilities, of the brokenness of our sinfulness, uh, all of that, even as we're striving to be people of Christ, people of God, uh, who reflect the kingdom uh in the ways that we live. So uh I think it's it's absolutely um kind of part of our experience. Uh, and that's what's so good about passages like this, that that we can kind of um relate to Paul or see that Paul is kind of relating to us in the sense that you know he's not this great kind of higher than higher holy, uh, you know, sitting on the mountaintop casting down his his letters uh from on high. Uh he's a human person just like us and struggling with the same things that we struggle with.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Yes, yes. Mind you, when he's out of prison, he does seem to sort of get a bit high and mighty, doesn't he? Like you know, I was saying to my congregation a couple of weeks ago that I think Paul needed, I think God put Paul in prison regularly so that he could actually write some letters. Because until he nearly every time, guys, I'm in prison again and and now I'm writing to you. Until he gets into prison, I don't think he stops enough to write a letter.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Yeah, I don't know how he kind of kept everything up, really, uh, you know, with all the travelling and the preaching and the teaching, and then you know, as we see in in Galatians and elsewhere, you know, having to sort out problems that he he found in the communities that he established, and so oh gosh, you know, they're they're fighting again, so I've got to think about how I deal with that. And uh yeah, then he'd get imprisoned by the local authorities or whatever. And you know, I mean, he incredibly he he usually seemed to see that as an opportunity rather than a problem. Oh good, I'm in prison again. I can you know uh do some writing or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

One of the pass one of them where he was basically quite excited, he said, Oh, I've been in prison, I've been preaching to the guards. Yes, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Look, yeah, never miss an opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Yeah, yeah. It is interesting that he's writing to often communities that are in tension, and when it comes to the spiritual gifts, one of the things so for five weeks now we've been picking up different passages that have been expressing the spiritual gifts, and one of the themes that comes through constantly is guys, don't have a competition to see whose is the greatest gift, and when you exercise your gift, exercise them with grace, with humility, you know, let go of the arrogance and let go of that control. It's almost like Paul is struggling to try and help these people realize spiritual gifts are not a competition, but they are a there's something that is there to build up the kingdom of God.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and it's probably one of the greatest temptations in terms of spiritual gifts uh is to see them in that kind of competitive sense, uh, you know, look what I can do, kind of thing. And uh the the the kind of deeper problem with that as well is that it can kind of come with an assumption that's or an inference that says, um, therefore God is kind of working through me or blessing me more than you, whoever you you may be over there. Yes. Uh and uh yeah, Paul, Paul uh at many points sees this as a major problem for a Christian community uh where he's trying to say to them all the time, you know, you're all one in Christ, we're all one in Christ. Uh, and we build up, you know, that the work of the spirit and the work of the gifts and so forth is to build up the body uh rather than build you up, whoever you may be, uh over and above others. And in fact, if you think it's about building you up, you've actually missed the point.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

That's right. Yeah. That's right. I think it was again, it wasn't this Sunday, but it was Sunday a week ago. I was saying that as a preacher, you know, one of the things that when I'm ordained, I'm ordained into word and sacrament as a minister of the word. Yeah. And and so word is a part of it. Preaching is a part of the gig, and it's sort of one of the gifts that's meant to go with the gig. But you can use and abuse that gift terribly, or you can use it to edify, build up, and strengthen. Yeah. And it and if you go down that ego pathway, it it's really dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

It is really dangerous. It's it's dangerous always round, really. Uh, so it's dangerous um spiritually uh for yourself in the sense that um while you're building up your own ego, you're actually falling away, you're diminishing Christ in your own life, because you're building yourself up. Yeah, so you're kind of taking up more space and more and more. Uh so it's kind of dangerous in that sense, it's dangerous um communally. So in the sense that as you start to kind of cast yourself over and above others, that can lead to all kinds of power dynamics and you know, problems, and it's dangerous ethically because you start to um, you know, uh, there's probably a probably a a ruder way of putting this, but believe in your own kind of you know, possession and goodness and giftedness and so forth, uh, you know, um, and that can lead on to to kind of ethical problems. So yeah, it's dangerous.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

And I do wonder if that was some of that sort of polarized tension that Paul is on about in that start of that Galatians passage of, you know, I do the stuff that I don't want to do. Because when we read Paul, he's a strong character, and there isn't there's an might be being harsh here, but there's an edge of arrogance in Paul sometimes, isn't there? Like that self-confidence and self-belief. He couldn't do what he was doing without it. Yeah, and I think sometimes he's sort of constantly checking himself to go, you know. I think some of the stuff that he is saying to these people when he's writing these letters is actually him trying to contain himself as well. You know, I've got to be patient, I've got to be kind.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Absolutely. Um, that that's absolutely true. And um, at different points he asks um his communities to imitate him in the sense of he becomes a kind of model or places himself as a model for ministry for them and for you know, life and church and so forth, um, which is a dangerous, again, a very dangerous thing to do. Yes. Um, but as you say, he kind of has a conviction that says um we know what the gospel is and um believe that God's placed this call on our lives to preach it and to share it and to so on and so on. And you know, we hope not in an arrogant way, but in a kind of um encouraging way, we hope to encourage you into this same mode of life, this same way of being in the spirit. And um, that's kind of what particularly in Galatians there, what he's what he's getting on at, I think.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Yeah, yes. Because I actually think sometimes, like for me, when I write a sermon, two-thirds of the time I'm preaching it myself. You know, preacher, convert thyself, right? That's right. Like, you know, it's sort of what I'm saying. I always used to say to people when they were writing prayers or writing worship, do it for yourself, because at least one person will be worshiping, you know, and then you can invite others to join in and worship with you.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Look, I think I think it's one of the great um kind of open secrets about all preachers, really, is that we're as much preaching to ourselves as we are to to anyone. Yeah. And I often uh I'm the same. I kind of um write things and and preach things and you know think to myself, gosh, do I actually embody that? Yeah, do I actually fulfil that and and kind of self-interrogate in that way? So look, the word moves, you know, the word moves wherever it may be. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

For me, I was looking at on Sunday that Paul in this in this frustration of let us make sure that we behave the right way. He actually is sort of saying that, and then I think he brings the fruits of the spirit in to almost say that this is a test a good tester of am I actually doing the right thing, am I living the right way? Because one of the things I started off with speaking about on Sunday is how we uh whenever we actually believe that we're doing something from God, we need to test that it's from God before we jump into it. Like, and that's not actually that's not testing God and it's not diminishing God's call, it's actually making sure that it's right because there are plenty of atrocities out there of people that believe they were doing it. Done in the name of God, yeah. Yeah, done in the name of God that really it couldn't have been. Yeah, yeah. That that really, if if we want to look at it, the love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, humility, self-control, the fruits of the spirit, they are they are in a sense the the test. Is this from God? Is this spiritual gift from God? Is this action from God? If it is, then these things will come out.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Yeah, I think that's that's absolutely right. And um by using the word fruit um there uh as opposed to works, which he uses earlier on to talk about the works of the flesh, so works of the flesh and fruit of the spirit. Um that that yeah, that that um that implies more of uh a power of spirit working through us um that then then results in the fruit of um love, joy, peace, patience, etc. Uh so it's not so much about our um kind of moral effort, um, but about the participation in the movement and power and love of the spirit.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Tell me a bit more about the work of the flesh, power of the spirit, like the fruit of the spirit. I am interested in that.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Yeah, so earlier on in the or in in that that Galatians passage um where you know you have the contrasting, sometimes they're called uh vices and virtues. You know, you have the bad stuff, as it were, and then you have the good stuff. Um the way that he and the word that he uses to describe the bad stuff, the vices, uh, is is works, the works of the flesh. Uh and that kind of um suggests that um there's a kind of agency there that we bring to bear, that that that you know, when we kind of um take our own way and think that we can control um uh kind of our destinies and our faith and so forth, that that we fall into this trap of of you know believing that that we can kind of take possession of it. So he calls them works, uh the works of the flesh. Uh whereas then when he goes to describe the good stuff, the the virtues, love, joy, peace, um he calls it the fruit, the fruit of the spirit, um making the spirit the primary agent, um, and we become kind of the vessels through which that spirit works, um, bringing about the the um that that fruit, the love, joy, and so forth. So um it it's just shifting the uh the agency, shifting the focus, if you like, uh away from centering us as the ones who do the works and to the spirit who's working through us.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Wow. Yeah, because for me, when I was picking up that, one of the things that I was saying on Sunday, I'm a bit of a gardener, so I don't, you know, ultimately I'm a hippie that doesn't really hasn't really functioned that well as a hippie. Um like I was talking about trees, and really when we when we want a treat a fruit, we nurture it, we tend it. Like at this point in time, I've just eaten the last of my mandarins and they've been fantastic. Yeah, great. You know, we nurture that tree, we've been tending that tree, fertilizing that tree, and and it's when you do those things that the fruit comes, but it's the tree that produces the fruit. And I was saying the way that I see the spirit, the fruit of the spirit, the spirit works within us, it equips us with gifts. We I mean to serve with those gifts and exercise those. But in a sense, the fruit comes out of what we do as the spirit tends, tends to us. Yep. And so that love, joy, peace comes out of is the fruit of what we do because God has been at work within us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. So it's you know, love, joy, peace, and so forth are things that have to come through human action in some form, and you know, relating to one another, um, the different things that we do in our lives, our families, our communities, and so forth. So it has to be able to be evidenced. Uh, and so that there has to be some kind of um visibility, and you know, we have to kind of align ourselves um with the spirit that's working within us um for that to happen. Uh yeah, uh absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Yeah, so it's actually leaning in, and so when it comes to the spiritual gifts that we've been talking about, it's actually sensing and working with what God is doing in us that equips us to do these things with our spiritual gifts, and then the test to see that that is working is that this fruit comes out.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Yep, yeah, I think that's right. Um, so it's a kind of positive framing uh of um kind of character and virtue and so forth that we we live into uh as part of our Christian walk, um, but seeing still always seeing the spirit as the primary animating agent. Um so um we participate through faith uh and the gifts and the the you know kind of graces and so forth that we we are gifted have to work to that end if they're to be in line with the spirit. And that's as you say, that's kind of the the test, or at least we can see um where um those things aren't in evidence. I think we can fairly safely say that that's that's you know the works of the flesh or or working against the spirit.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really interesting because we've one of the things that has come up a few times through this time that we've been looking at about spiritual gifts is uh are the spiritual gifts just the skills that we have or or is it something more than that? I I'd love your reflection. What's your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Um I certainly think it would be I think we'd need to say uh more than it's just the skills that we have. Um I think it's more about um kind of um yeah, kind of ca capacities that become um enlivened and and kind of opened up into community and into the world through the power of the spirit that that edify and build up and and kind of proclaim the kingdom in the different ways that they do. Uh so uh again to kind of think of of um the kinds of things that Paul talks about about preaching and teaching and all of those kinds of things, they're all all relational things. Yes, um, so they're all the time looking to uh strengthening trust, strengthening um dependence, strengthening um yeah, love, I suppose, between between people uh for the sake of of drawing them closer to Christ. Uh so um there the you know no doubt it it kind of overlaps with skills that we have as such. Um some of us are uh great, you know, orators, some of us are uh great listeners, some of whatever, those kinds of things. Um and they they can be a part of it, but yeah, I think it's a deeper reality than than just saying our skills.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

And and not always drawing us closer to Christ, but drawing us into God's kingdom, yeah. Absolutely, you know, yeah. One of the things that I was mentioning on Sunday is that this love, joy, peace, this fruit is not always it's not always a direct cause and effect, you know. Like if I a prophet, a prophet when they speak, because you worked for Wesley Mission, yeah. Wesley Mission has been one of the champions at the moment for this anti-pokey stuff, and and and they were sort of one of the lines that I have loved hearing Stu Cameron say and Tim Costello saying is that there is no good that happens at three o'clock in the morning in front of a poker machine. So true, isn't it? There is no good. But being that prophetic voice, because the I believe that is a prophetic voice to Australia, being that prophetic voice does not make the pubs and clubs feel all warm and cozy inside and respond with great joy and love.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

But if we if if we listen to the voice, uh the prophetic voice, which is saying Australia is addicted to this kind of gambling more than anywhere else in the world, and it is damaging us, if we listen to that prophetic voice, the result for our society as a whole can be closer to the kingdom of God. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, the fruits of the spirit can come out if we listen to that prophetic voice and respond.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I think sometimes perhaps we uh we misconstrue those things, love, joy, peace, patience, uh, to kind of draw them into a category of of kind of general niceness. You know, we're love and cuddle. Yeah, yeah, we're all warm fuzzies, right? Kind of how we roll. Uh that's Right, and and it is it it's a misconstrual um because again if we look at Jesus' life um and we would say Jesus is is the centre of of God's love, the centre of the personification of the kingdom and of the kingdom, yeah, absolutely. Um the kingdom in person as it were. Um, you know, he regularly was drawn into conflict um because those things, love, joy, peace, um, they are hard-nosed, um, challenging, disrupting, um, overturning tables kinds of things. Uh and so they they they may not in the first first instance lead to you know um all things being kind of tranquil and peaceful and and what have you. They may lead to a disruption that necessarily has to happen. Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

So in a sense, the test so I I think sometimes in in our faith we make it too simplistic. Yep. You know, that that okay, if the tester is the fruit of the spirit, therefore can I see as soon as I do this, can I see the fruit of the spirit? But we sometimes need to play the long game, don't we? That this is this could happen in five, ten years. Like prophecy might happen in our lifetime, or it might happen in many lifetimes to come.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and in fact, I I remember a story um about Alan Walker, who was the previous um superintendent uh of Wesley Mission and who was very strongly um against the Vietnam War, uh, among other things, protested against it and so forth. But um he went once to uh South Africa, I think in still in the it must have been in the apartheid time, uh, and basically kind of preached against apartheid. Right. Uh and yeah, very, very brave. Uh and someone at at wherever he was preaching kind of um took him aside afterwards and and kind of said, who are you to to to you know come and and tell us this you're not a South African and and you know so forth. Uh and he replied, uh, as I understand fairly quickly, uh, just by saying, You're right, uh I'm not a South African, but I know that there is no apartheid at the gates of heaven. Uh, and I thought that was pretty pretty good. So that's a disrupting kind of moment. But as you say, in the long game, and as we you know know where South Africa eventually threw off apartheid and so forth, um, you know, you see there a kind of prophetic loving stance uh in action.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Yeah, yeah, like it's a really there's some really interesting challenges to us with the spiritual gifts. And sometimes we will feel uncomfortable with those spiritual gifts, won't we? Like, you know, if if someone is speaking out what God wants us to hear, there is not always gonna be it's not always gonna be simple. And and that's for us, like Paul faces that quite regularly. And I think that's why he's got to have the height of a rhinoceros, because sometimes sometimes what he says is confronting.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Indeed. Uh so that's right. I mean, it's it's a a kind of um cautionary tale about resilience, really, isn't it? That that we've got to be resilient um in in ministry and in in Christian faith and and so forth. I think it's also a reminder that um we're always in relationship, we're always in community. Uh, and so the needs of um the other, whomever they may be, uh, are always part of our our um discernment, our our judgment, our our action. Uh so kind of pushing against that that very individualistic kind of age that we live in that says, no, no, you know, my life is tied up with yours and um with many others, um, and in the church and in the wider society, and that's why the pokies thing is such an important thing, because of the damage that it's doing to uh to so many people across our our country. Uh, and that's something that we as Christians uh look at and go, you know, we we know our lives are tied up with those people to whom it's doing damage, so we need to do something about it.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Because, in a sense, in the Galatians passage, that list of vices that Paul starts off with, the works, yeah, that is we can sometimes, I think, again oversimplify it and just look at that list and go, they're the terrible things. But what is the contemporary list of vices of the things that distract us from living in a way that the fruit of the spirit can can bubble out of us? What are the vices that we hold on to in our society nowadays? And that individualistic stuff is one of it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Yeah, it's a great, a great question. Uh, and really that's that's the question of um appropriating or hearing the word that we have here into our own our own context and kind of trying to interrogate ourselves uh and say, yeah, well, what are the vices? And um, you know, idolatry is one of the things that's that's listed there in Paul. Um, but I I always think you know, idolatry is such a a kind of a universal thing in that we can make anything an idol. Uh, you know, so anything that we put in place of of uh of God, anything that we kind of, as you say, get distracted by or uh give over our allegiance to, you know, whether it's it's money or you know, self or you know, whatever it might be, country, whatever it might be, uh, that's a problem. Uh so yeah, trying to to think about trying to um reflect on where our society, where our culture is at the moment, and identify those things is really important.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Yeah. And I think that the reading, reading the scriptures into our modern context is really important. Trying to interpret what it means for us today. Yep. In 88, long time ago, I went on about phase two, um, which was a faith and culture exchange, and we ended up in Arnhem Land. And uh, I can still remember some words from Ginina Gondola. Ginny was a um was a United Church minister and he was the head of the UAICC or the previous head at the time. And one of the things that he said to this group of us, you know, young and enthusiastic people, was look, I'm sure that you'll be able to see some things that you can see that might need to be changed up here. But you've given us Jesus, let us change things. You go back to where you are and look, and you take Jesus with you and see what you need to change where you are. And it was a it was a beautifully grounding comment to for me, it was of don't just wander to everyone else and tell them what's got what's wrong, you know. But but if faith is actually meant to apply to you, go back and look where you are and see what see what God wants you to change where you are.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

100%. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, 100%. We you know that that's another kind of mistake that we make, isn't it? We we can sometimes be very good or think we're very good uh at interpreting what other people are doing wrong and that needs to change. Not so keen to uh yeah, to turn it around and uh again is as uh we said before, look in the mirror.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Yeah. One of the things that I was talking about on Sunday with the fruits of the spirit, because it as you come to the to the end of the Galatians passage, there's there's a couple of things that I finished my sermon with on Sunday. One was at the end of Galatians, it sort of goes, Don't let the sun go down on your anger. Um the minister that married us, Lori Reed, one of the things that he did with Suzanne and I basically said right from the start, don't let the sun go down on your anger. Um, which was a beautiful comment and from this Galatians passage. And then after that, it sort of says, you know, don't live with hatred and bitterness and malice. Don't let go of those things. I was saying if we hold on to those things, if we if we keep our anger and don't let this, you know, let the sun go down and we hold our anger and we hold our bitterness and we hold our rage, in a way it poisons who we are. Um, and if we want to stick with that fruit of the spirit image, when a tree is distressed, you know, your next door neighbours put some poison around and it's gone over your tree or or it's really dry or something, you know. Whenever a tree is under great stress, one of the things that it lets go of is its fruit. You know, the the fruit is one of the things that drops from the tree in distress. And and so if if if the image of the fruit of the spirit is what comes out of us when our spiritual gifts are being exercised when God is at work within us, if we hold bitterness and rage and anger, we are poisoning ourselves, and the fruit is the thing that drops out. The love, the joy, the peace, the patience. You know, we sort of one of the things we said at the beginning was the test for whether we're exercising our gifts is are those fruits coming to the surface? But in a sense, if we hold bitterness and rage and anger and stuff, even our gifts can't allow that stuff to rise to the surface because we're poisoning it.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Yeah, I think it's a great image, uh, a great way of thinking about it. And uh again, I I I kind of come back to that sense of of space that when when we are um crowding in our own spiritual space with with that kind of stuff, holding on to grudges and uh malice and you know, contempt for others and anger and all those kinds of things, that's kind of what's filling us. You know, we're kind of being filled up with this stuff that's that's as you say, kind of poisonous in the in the bigger picture. Uh and and inevitably uh that will mean that um we either uh yeah, kind of the the good fruit dies, as it were, falls off the tree, uh, and or we start producing bad fruit, um, which which you know is uh obviously a big problem uh for us. So yeah, it's it's um um they're they're they're um they're such insightful spiritual uh thoughts, aren't they really? Uh to think that you've got to be filled up with the spirit and filled up with the good things of God and and um kind of be open, you know, not not be closed into yourself and kind of holding on to those things all the time. Uh and uh because otherwise it'll it'll um it'll kind of eat you up. It's kind of like um uh like Gollum in the Lord of the Rings, you know, that the more he gets consumed with wanting this ring and wanting the power and kind of wanting to be the one, you know, the more his actual whole being just shrivels up, you know, greater and greater. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

And look, it is a beautiful image in the Lord of the Rings of that just shriveling up through there. Yeah. Well, beautiful is possibly the wrong term. Hideous to me. Telling telling image. Thank you, thank you. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. That's really powerful, actually. I hadn't thought of it that way. Um, is there any other things that you've picked up in these passages that you would want us to hear? Either the Galatians or Ephesians passage. There's a lot there, by the way. And we could talk for hours, if not days, unpacking the whole thing. And I know that, which is in a sense why I grabbed I I sort of skimmed through it rather than dug deeply into it this time.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Sure. Yeah, um look, I think uh uh they're both amazing passages. Um the I I I used to do Bible study. I I had a had a um a kind of mentor when I was young, was in my twenties, uh, and just kind of going to going into um candidating to be a minister. And I had a uh a mentor and he he met with me every week to do Bible study, which is he's an incredible, incredible guy, um, very faithful and um generous with his time. Anyway, um we we you know studied through different books and different themes and and what have you, which was was wonderful. But uh he in terms of his his whole um biblical edifice and and kind of theology drew back to one verse in Galatians, right? And it's yeah, it's a it's actually not in the passage that it's that that you've got here, but it's just before it, uh, where he's kind where Paul's kind of wrestling with with um the place of the law and you know how that works and um you know what this new kind of creation is that we are now in light of Christ and so forth. And um, so just before it, and he says, Um, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision are of any value at all. And then this is the most important part the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Right. The the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Yeah, and so he he framed his whole kind of way of interpreting the Bible uh through that interpretive verse or idea. Uh so um and it's you know, as we've said, it's more complex than that, obviously, that we need to then think about how it works out and you know, interrogate ourselves and exegete our culture and all that those kind of things that we know. Uh but I think if if if you have that as your kind of crowning um verse, you could do a lot worse uh than than think um if my faith is producing uh love, love in me, uh love for others, uh love that kind of grows up and creates fruit, you know, produces fruit within a community. Um that's the only thing in the end that counts. Uh so um that that's I I kind of hold on to that in terms of, I mean, particularly in terms of this passage, because it comes just before it, because it kind of, you know, almost sets the context up. Sets the context up, pre-pre grounds it and and in Galatians particularly, it's it's a very fractious letter. You know, he's he's fighting with Peter, and uh, you know, there are there are people kind of uh coming from different places and influencing the Galatian Christians to kind of draw away from being one people, all those kinds of things. Yeah. So it's a very fractious letter. Uh, and so that's where he kind of draws it, I think, right down to it's it's real nub. Um, the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. So yeah, I I that both for my you know in kind of memory of my friend who with whom I met to do Bible study, and as a kind of good theological hermeneutic, that's what I I hold on to. That's that is really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Yeah. You can almost see, even in the little snippet we've had this week, the tension that Galatians has, can't you? It's a very yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

It is. It it's very um it's very tense. Uh and it it kind of it's a it's a reflection, I think, that that tension uh of how important Paul saw the unity of Christians. Um all are one in Christ, neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, all one in Christ.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Um so these kinds of uh this this draws back to the stuff about spiritual gifts where you're saying about you know um they become a kind of badge of honour that I wear to say that you know I'm better than you. You know, that that's that's not unity. That that's that's me placing myself uh higher and above uh others. Uh so you know he's he's very, very strong on saying uh no, um the church is one, Christ is one. And we hear that in the the Ephesians passage, one baptism, one hope, one faith. We've had five weeks of readings, and every week the body is mentioned.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

The body he just loves that image. He loves that image, yeah. Yeah. Where all the bits need to function to get somewhere. Indeed. Yeah. So yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. Is there any more that you would want to say from these passages?

SPEAKER_00 38:01

No, I don't think so, mate. I think it's um, yeah, they're they're they're wonderful. You know, one I I love Paul Ephesians is my favorite, favorite of the letters. Uh so uh yeah, happy to talk about them anytime.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Look, thank you so much. Now, for the people of the congregation, just um one of the things that I need to mention, just a couple of the notices for the week. Um one is the repair cafe is on this Saturday. So if anyone's interested in coming along for a pizza or coffee or if they've got something they need fixing, bring that along. Um, that's this Saturday, and of course, straight after the repair cafe for those that are interested, the Taise service is on. Um Holiday Kids Club. If you want to help out with Holiday Kids Club, please, that'd be great. If you don't want to help out with Holiday Kids Club, but you're feeling guilt and shame, we'll accept that as well. Um, with anyone that can help out, that would be fantastic. Um so there's those things. And the only other thing is just keep in mind the last Sunday in July, we have coffee and cars after the 10 o'clock service, where we've got a few different cars coming along for people to look at. Um we're gonna have some pizza and a coffee after the service. I think that's all the notices. I'm sure I've missed at least one. Um but Michael, thank you so much for joining us today. Pleasure. Good to be here. Yeah. And next week we'll come back and we're gonna start the big questions. I don't know what the big questions are yet. I'll be looking at that this afternoon or tomorrow. It terrifies me. But excites me all at once. So um the first of our big questions will be next week. But for now, thank you very much for listening. Talk to you later.