Did God really make the World ?

This week Rev Richard Harris chat with special guest Rev Simon Hansford to discuss the first of the Big Questions series - Did God really make the World?

Bible Readings
Psalm 139:1-18
Matt 6:25-30

#terrigal #church #uniting #God #questions

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Hello everyone, this is our next recording of TUC Talks. Some people have been telling me that I should just resolve to accept the name. Um, I've been struggling. Simon, I've been struggling with the name TUC Talks, but um, you know, I might just need to resolve that that is the way that it's meant to be. Um so, welcome everyone to this week's conversation with TUC Talks. Um, we are looking at Sunday, the last Sunday in June. I think it was the 24th or 25th, whatever it was. 28th. Oh, there you go. I really should know the numbers. And today I am talking with the Reverend Simon Hansford. Um hello, Simon.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Good night, Richard. Hello, Tough Talk people.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

How are you? Yeah, now how do I talk to an ex-moderator? Is it sir or your greatness? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

That's called Sir McDonald's. Um, no, I did just as Simon is fine, my friend. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

So so everyone, we we have the privilege of Simon Hansford, who is the ex-moderator of the United Church in New South Wales, um, who is going to share his great wisdom with us today. Um, and so everyone, just a reminder, on Sunday we were doing the first of our big questions, and it was our question from Davron, who asked, Did God really make the world? Um, I went a bit rogue on it and sort of explored beyond just the yes or no answer. Um so there were two readings. The first one was Psalm 139, which is that God, you know me completely. You know when I sit down, when I stand up, you know all about me. And the other one was Matthew 6, 25 to 30, which was Jesus talking about how the lilies of the field they look perfect and um they're here today and gone tomorrow. How much more is God gonna care for us? Um so Simon with Davron's question, yeah, did God make the world?

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Yeah, I don't I think those often those really simple questions are like that that seed that goes boom, you know. And I think asking the question about did God make the world, the answer is absolutely yes, but what that actually means in both impact and content is extraordinary.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Oh, for me, that's exactly what I was doing. So I really turned this into a conversation about uh because one of the things I started with is there are two creation stories in our Bible.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

And in fact, you might know this. I was trying to remember, because there are three traditions in the old in the in the Genesis that are merged together, aren't there? There's a Yahweh.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

At least three, at least three, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

So do you know what they are, Yahweh?

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Yahwehist, Eloist, Priestly, and Deuteronomist. Yeah. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 3:13

There's four. At least four, yeah, yeah. Gee, one day I might need to become a scholar and actually learn some stuff.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

You're running out of time, son.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

So so so realistically, it's these these traditions were brought together and sat beside one another, didn't they? They didn't actually try and homogenize them into one document. They sort of sat them beside each other.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

I think I think they they see themselves as being in conversation too, which I think is really important. I think our culture is really into you're either this or you're that, you're either you're either fought or you're holding or whatever ridiculous stuff. This is actually about how the stories of creation that shape us are in conversation together to a community that which hears it in a range of places. So the community that first heard the creation story may well have been the community in slavery. So the idea of a God who is in charge of the world remains important for a community that's caught up in slavery, for example. Or the idea of a Sabbath being important when you're a slave working seven days a week, that sort of conversation that's happening in the story. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Yeah, because that's the one of the theories is that the um the poem, the seven-day creation poem, actually was done during the Babylonian exile, wasn't it? That's one of there are many theories. Some of them uh uh hold other things, but that one there would say in that pattern, it's sort of saying, Well, the things that you guys worship, our God made, you know, our our God put the sun up there, and then you worship the sun, our God put the moon up there, you worship them.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Yeah, and the and the beauty of the poetry is that it's a it's a song to sing, it's a poem to recite, which gives a sense not just of God present creation, but the beauty and wonder of God's presence and creation. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Yeah, yeah. That was one of the things that I was trying to say. That I I'm not trying to say I I did I quite clearly said in my sermon, I do not want to get into the debate about seven-day creation versus evolution. No, saying it matters little to me is probably disingenuous, but it's not it's not the primary uh the reason that that document is there. It the poem poems poems are not science, they're they they they raise another question, don't they?

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Yeah, well, I think you know, a lecturer at college when I was there a long time ago would say you can't ask questions of the text, the text was never designed to answer. Yes. So I mean if the quick if the if the if the story of creation, and I think I'd I'd include in some ways some 139 in that same space, if the story is designed to answer the why, you can't ask the how. Yeah, why did God create the world? Yeah, what is the character and nature of God? What is God's relationship with us going to be? They're the questions the creation story is trying to answer, not how did God create the world? And I think that's part of the story for us.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Yeah, yeah. Because one of the things I I love the concept of it being a poem. And it's pretty so I think it's fairly obvious for me that that first creation story has got the rhythm of a poem, you know, on the first day, and then it was evening and morning the first day. Yeah, and evening, morning the second day. Yeah, I was saying to my congregation on Sunday that when I was in year nine and ten, and this is probably one of the reasons why I thought of you for the conversation, because you know you're a bookish poem kind of reader.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

I was reading poetry before we before we got into the zoo meeting.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

So there's yeah, yeah, yeah. Where where I had dyslexia and I'd much prefer to dig something in the garden. But you know, but one of the things, when I was in year nine and year ten, we looked at some of the poems that were written by soldiers in World War II.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

And and those poems, they didn't tell us where the soldiers were, or or they didn't tell us the the factual account of what was happening, but they drew you into either the suffering of the moment or the fear of the moment. Because poems can draw you into emotion and concept far better than a factual writing can.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Yeah. And and I think I think you're exactly right. And I think to use the world the World War II and World War I analogy of poetry, fear is an experience that many, many people experience. And so the idea that writing a poem about fear, even if I haven't been to a war, I can be drawn into that space. Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Yeah. Which means that if if our first creation story is a poem, what is the emotion that it's trying to teach us or draw into us, or what is the the event and experience that it's trying to say? And I think it's I I think it's got at play.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

That's nice. Yeah. There's um uh Catholic uh priest, Matthew Fox, I think he's been asked to leave recently or some time ago, got got called In the Beginning There Was Joy, which is a children's story about the creation. And it's beautiful, this sense of that was the joy of God that created this, the joy of God that did these things, that the joy of God and these things spontaneously erupt from God, the creation spontaneous out of God's excitement and joy at the wonder, and this sense of um delight in the creation, which is fantastic. And we I think the uh the poet in the in the Genesis story understates it, and God saw that it was good today, but that idea of the delight of God, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Yeah, I I love the that poem because it is the first five days uh and it was good, and it was good, and it was good, and on the sixth day, God looks at it and it was very good.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Yeah, it's nice, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 9:19

You know, that sort of and particularly if if they were slaves in Babylon at the time that it was written, you know, you worship the sun, how God made it, and it was good.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Yes, you know, yes. I mean, there's there are some modern hymns, um, like and I'm thinking a particular one by Brian Wren, uh He Hangs a Man Discarded, and it's I think it's five verses long. And then the first four verses, it ends on a minor key, and then the fifth verse ends on a major key and resolves the tone. It's this beautiful sense of you're kind of like waiting, waiting, waiting as things get darker, and then we walk into the light, the sense of God who is present. It's wonderful. So that but that's the same thing as it's very good. This sense of the the creation is resolved in the hands and the blessing of God. Yeah, it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

I I've always been intrigued. What's the writing style of the second creation story? Because it's not a poem the way that the first creation story is. It's it's got a different style to it, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Yeah. I mean, if you if you were doing a Myers-Briggs kind of thing, you'd probably look at somebody else a bit different to me. But I mean, I I think I would have been happier to have written the first creation story. Second creation story, I would have left somebody else. But um, yeah. Just um, yeah, I think it it's much more uh well, I I can't, I'm gonna get it wrong, but I think it might be the priestly style, this sense of no, it wouldn't be priestly, that's wrong. I I I'm not right, I don't know. But that but this sense it's a very different style and a much more functional kind of explanation, yeah. And I think um it leads us into a different kind of space, but it it doesn't compete with the first story, it gives us a different picture, a different angle on it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

So yeah, one of the things that I mentioned on Sunday that I find interesting is that the first creation story, humanity is sort of the pinnacle of the story, not the ultimate pinnacle, because the ultimate pinnacle is God and God resting and seeing it all as very good. But but but humanity comes at at the sort of conclusion and the pinnacle of the event, where in the second creation story, man is created first, then all of the things are created around all the other animals are created, and then woman is created. And so they actually in dialogue with each other, they actually have a different structure, yeah. But their dialogue is about about both both of them, humanity has purpose and place and role in creation.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Yeah, I mean the the human beings seem to take the man, the male character seems to take a place beside God, as it were, in the creation and in the second story. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

I didn't mention it Sunday, but one of the ways occasionally I like to refer to that second creation story particularly, but all that first 11 chapters of Genesis is a bit like the dream time story uh in in our Aboriginal culture. Okay, yeah. Um, because in '88 I spent some time in Arnhem Land Um on About Face Two. And one of the stories that was given like the story had real meaning, but it there was almost the person that was telling me it telling me the story sort of said, Well, you know, I don't we don't assume that that woman was turned into a rock. But but but the story behind that is is this meaning. And I think I think that kind of understanding could be one way of exploring that. These are stories with with real truth to them.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Yeah. Well, uh when we use the word myth, some people hear us saying it's a lie or it's a deceit or it's fantasy, where myth has this far more complex and nuanced than that. The idea of this being a myth that holds elements of truth, it holds element of reality, it holds elements of the character of God, it holds element of the character of us, it holds that whole sense of how do we understand ourselves and God in this story. And rather than it, once again, it being a scientific detail or even a clinical, whatever clinical historical means, a clinical historical detail. This is actually a conversation about what is the truth of God in the world? What is the truth of us in the creation, and how do we see those things in conversation together? And um, and you watch generation after generation through history and how they engage with this story, and now we are in this really scientific, almost post-scientific world where everything's analyzed and decided. What do we do with this text? And then someone says, but it's poetry. Yeah, yeah. And they go, but stop, it's poetry. And I remember when I was at university a thousand years ago, and we had Les Murray, the famous Australian poet, come to the university, and the lecturer in his pomp said to that to Les Murray, What's this poem mean? And Murray said, It's a poem. It doesn't mean anything. Yeah. It's a poem. And the lecturer said it suddenly deflated. And we all got a bit confused, but suddenly realized, no, no, this is the wonder of it. This is a poem. It doesn't mean anything. How do you hear it? How do you read this? What do you see there? And I think, you know, um, you know, that often Jesus would say to some of the the uh Pharisees or scribes or people he met with, what do you see in this story? What do you see here? What do you hear here? And this is part of the creation story, I think, which is which is even more wondrous to me.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Yeah, well, because that's what Jesus does with some of the parables. Like he tells them and says, Well, tell me what you think. Yeah, yeah. But I'll and the caveat, because I'm I'm a scary cat, I want to make sure that people understand that that doesn't mean that it's not a seven-day creation story or an evolutionary creation story. Yeah. It God, that's science, and that is an exploration of of what God has done, you know, the how process, not the why process. And the how process is science.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

And yeah, and and it has and it when I say it has no place here, I don't mean to dismiss other science or this story, but it's it's having a different conversation, and that's a different space. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, if you if you read the psalm 139, this is not a clinical analysis of how God acts in the world, but a uh a definitive statement about how God is in the world, this God who searches us out and seeks us out. Yeah, yeah, you know what I'm saying. Nothing prevents us, nothing will prevent God from seeking us out, not even death or hell. Nothing will prevent God. And so that changes the whole nature of our understanding and the relationship. If nothing prevents God, if nothing will um impede God from seeking us out, then what does that say about God and creation and us?

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Yeah, yeah. Because like in the Psalm 139, if I if I go down into if I go down into the dead, you are there. Yeah. If I go to the furthest north or south, you are there.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Yeah, it it tells us about God's nature of everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Yeah. And and and I and I don't want to delve into this space too carelessly, but the idea that God goes to the place of the dead, is that outside the creation or within it? You know, the idea of this is a God who will not be prevented.

unknown 17:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

And I think that's something that says to us about the nature of God's intent rather than, once again, some analysis of God's style, as it were. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 17:12

So yeah, yeah. And and if we take that and then embrace and explore that, that can help us understand how God will pursue us. Yes. You know, if I go into the hell that is Sydney, God is still there. Absolutely. It's really hard to see God, but it's you know, God is still there.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

But and and and I think and that's it. It is this sense, like the flowers that will fade will fade away. And this God loves us more. This God loves us more, and this sense of this insistence of God to seek us out and find us. And I think um to pursue that in terms of Christ, in God, in Christ, God is seeking us out to such an extent that everything is experienced by God in order to find us.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

And and the idea that um I I know it's a common slogan and a common language we use in the church, I found God. I think I prefer to use language like, I discover that I am found. Yeah, yeah. I discovered that I am found in Jesus Christ. I've discovered that I am God in Jesus Christ has found me. And I've I think that's the create, that's the that's the Psalm 139. That's God crying out in the in the uh garden when the the man and the woman have eaten the fruit of the the fruit of the tree, you know. There's God, where are you, my son? Where are you? There's God who seeks us out. And I think that's really from the very beginning.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Yeah, yeah. God seeks out, yeah. Jesus finds us and we respond. There's a great t-shirt out there that says that has written across it, um, I found Jesus. He was hiding behind the couch the entire time.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Well, and I mean, and I think this, I mean, this is a question I can occasionally end my sermons with is what story do we have of God in Jesus Christ that says God will cease searching for us?

unknown 19:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

What story do we have that says God's mercy is extinguished at some point? What story do we have of God in Jesus Christ that tells us that? And I think that's and someone will now leap to the end of Revelation or whatever, but we don't in Jesus Christ see the ceasing of God searching for us.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Yeah. And like some of those ones, like the Good Samaritan story, we we often look at the who walked past and who did something.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

But but the I love at the very end of the Samaritan Good Samaritan story when he sort of he sets the person up at the hotel and says, Can you care for them? Here's some money. Yeah. And if there is any more expenses, I will give it to you when I come back.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Yeah, yeah. It's good.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

You know, that Jesus, like so the Jesus character in that story basically says, I've done everything I can right now, but if I need to do some more a bit later, I'll do it then.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yeah. And see, and and using using that parable. And Bonhoeffer argues the reason the Samaritan stops is because the last time he came down that road, he got beaten up and nobody stopped.

unknown 20:22

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

So it's compassion that stops the Samaritan.

unknown 20:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

But he knows what it's like to be in the wrong place and get beaten up. He knows that story, which I think is I think it's a wonderful interpretation of the parable. You know, that the Samaritan knows what it's like to be mugged on the road and to be left for dead.

unknown 20:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

So what do we do with that?

SPEAKER_00 20:43

And I so it would be good for you to explore what we're doing there, because some of some of the people listening to this might hear that and go, is that in the story? Like in with the parables, sometimes parables are stories that you can play with to discover what God is doing. Exactly, right. Just talk us through what you're doing in that, in Bonhoeffer's interpretation there.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

Well, I think one of the challenges is that we one of the consequences of our scientific mind, which wants to make the Genesis story a scientific story rather than a poem and a one thing of wonder, is we say, Oh, the Bible says this and we can't play with it. The whole point of Jesus' parable telling is that it asks a question of the listener, whether it was the listener at the time or us 2,000 years later, how do you hear this? And you think, and I and I remember going to a lecture years ago where the person was from um uh South America somewhere who talked about how in her village it was unsafe to go to the shops, talk along the road to the shops. So we all know the Good Samaritan story from the side of being mugged, she said. We know this. Story, and we pray that someone will come along and help us once we've been mugged.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

And I think that's an interpretation of where I grew up, you know, in a wealthy part of Sydney, and being the size that you and I both are, Richard, the chances of us being mugged are are much smaller than the average person. And I think so we hear that story very differently. How will I be the Samaritan in this story? So our response. And so what and what Bonhoeffer does, which is what lots of theologians do, and certainly a lot of Jewish community rabbis and teachers do it, is they say, What's this story? How can we tease this out? What can we do with this? And I have a conversation time in worship here at Armadale. And one of the things I say is, What do you think might be happening here? There is no wrong answer. Yeah. How do we play with this? People get really nervous because they want, they think there's a right answer. Um, and we play with the parable, and you say, Well, what's Jesus telling us here? And you might get a different answer today and a different answer tomorrow because the day has changed.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

And I suppose one of the things we need to say is occasionally we need to come back and say, now this is the story, and this is all that Jesus has said, and therefore this is the message from what Jesus has said. Yeah. But as we explore and play with this, we might think of other things that God might be saying to us today. Yeah. You know, so we we need to hold on to the original and say this is the basis. Absolutely. But but that doesn't disallow us thinking about what God might be like today.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Yeah, I mean, Karl Barth, in one of his most famous stories, takes the prodigal son, once again, another of the most famous parables, and says, Jesus Christ is the son who goes into a far country in order to restore us and bring us home. So Jesus Christ leaves God the Father and goes into a far country in order to save us and risks everything to bring us home. Now, that's Bart's interpretation. But if Bart can do it, it entitles us to ask those questions too. What is the text saying to us now about how we hear this? And whether it's the creation story about what's our place in the creation, or the psalm in 139, which says, This God thinks so much of you that this God will never cease to search for you. He knows your name and he will never cease to call your name. Never cease to call your name. It means God is so invested in you, this psalm was written as if you were the only one in the world.

unknown 24:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

Which which probably for me, this conversation has been is helpful for us to picture that when we look at the Bible, we're not looking at uh an homogenous thing. Like it's not we are looking at 66 books, and each of them has so some of them are poetry and song. Like the psalms, that's all they are, they're poetry and song, not all, because that still teaches us. I mean no poetry teaches us, song teaches us. I can remember Phil Docmanovic, because he was who's the minister on the North Coast. Um, he was our music minister a long time ago here. And when I was interviewing Phil, one of the things he said was, Richard, every Sunday there are two sermons happening or two teaching sessions. One is the songs you sing and the other is the sermon that is preached. And both of them are teaching. And so songs teach us. In fact, because we walk away singing them, and they have taught us they they teach us theology. Yeah, but the psalms teach us theology in the pattern and the rhythm, like you know, let's face it, I would say the most read thing by by the bedside of a dying person who's a Christian would be the 23rd Psalm.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Um, which is a piece of Old Testament poetry.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Yeah, and and one of the Hebrew words in that when it in the Psalm, that most famous of Psalms, it talks about this God who pursues us. Yes, yes. I mean, this is and I think this is this is the the the wonder of being part of a conversation. And this is why it we have two creation stories, that they are in conversation together, but not head to head, but to find a deeper sense of what God's intention is for the world and the creation. Yeah, we can hear it both in both we hear.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we we have so we have that like and we have other books like the wisdom literature, you know, Job, um, Ecclesiastes.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

They are they are wisdom literature, they they're to tell us to sort of dig into the wisdom of what God is saying in the world. Yeah, yep. Yeah, yeah. I think absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Yeah, I and like you rightly say, they're not a manual in the sense of nor are they really oh, maybe they are a map, but I but that but they certainly aren't a manual in the sense of how to put a television together.

unknown 27:20

No.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

That isn't what we're doing. And I think um I might just had to put a new SIM card in my phone, and you know, I'm an old man and I've got bad eyesight, and I'm trying to flip the put the button in the little tiny hole and make the thing pop out, and and I, you know, the language coming out of my mouth wasn't the most godly language in the world. But it, you know, I needed to follow all the instructions to get there. That isn't the story of God in the world. This is not an instruction trapdoor kind of path. This is actually a sense of a God. I mean, this is a God who intends to save us. Yes. What does that mean in the light of the creation? And, you know, I mean, I think using the creation story and to help Davron, because it's got to make the world, when this story happens and the woman and the man eat the fruit and are expelled from the garden, the first thing we know is that God clothed them for the journey. And the second thing we know is God's outside the garden waiting for them. Yes, they haven't been expelled from God. No, no, God's outside the garden. So, what's that say? There is nowhere in the world that God will not seek to search for us. Yeah, yeah. And that's and so for Davron and for your community, this is where we begin. And I often say in church here, the first character in the story is God. In the beginning, God.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

In the beginning, God. And then we respond to that. It isn't we've behaved this way and therefore God. No. In the beginning, God. And how we engage in that conversation for history for creation is really important.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

And like if we go into the history, like the book of Acts is a history document. It's the the journey of the early church. Yeah. And really, through all of that writing, what do we see? That wherever they go, God is already there.

unknown 29:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

And wherever they go, they are sharing the good news of God, and God is on the journey with them and guiding them in that process.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

And and they get most nervous when people are doing stuff in God's name and they go, We haven't given that permission. Yeah. Yes. But but I mean, yeah, to use a different example, there are some stories in the four gospels that are in all four gospels. Yes. And they're often placed in different places in the gospel. Why? Because the gospel writer hears the story for a different place and a different time in a different way. That doesn't mean it didn't happen or it did happen or whatever. It's a ridiculous conversation. The conversation is: why does Matthew or Mark or Luke or John place the story there particularly? What value do you need to hear from this story? And it doesn't in any way discount the other three. It engages in conversation with them. It says, what is God saying in this place? And I think that's really important. So for me, one of the challenges is the ecumenical conversation of the love of the church, how we engage in these stories ecumenically with other faiths, other church traditions. And if we see it as a conversation, then we found out we're finding a way home. If we see it as a fight, then there's no way home.

SPEAKER_03 30:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

So as frightening as that is, that's the conversation, you know.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

So what's what's the way because the the Bible is 66 books and each of those books are a different style, yeah. Like so, with the Bible study that I'm I play with on a Tuesday night, we are reading the book of Daniel at the moment because we're about to read the book of Revelation. And we thought, oh no, everyone, if you can see Simon's eyes, these eyes have gone, you strange and weird man. Why are you looking at revelations with a book?

SPEAKER_01 31:10

I mentioned Saptors before. I might have been wrong. Come on, you're not reading.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

But one of the reasons we're looking at Daniel is because ultimately, if you're going into the revelations, you need to have the imagery of Daniel down pat because otherwise you're looking for a beast with horns and a sword hanging out its mouth, and wondering what that's going to do when, but when if you look at it as in Daniel, you start to discover this is the imagery of Rome or the imagery of Babylon or the imagery of, and we start to discover that was an aside. Um what we need to look at each book and actually ask the question what is this? What what's what style of writing is this book? You know, because Daniel is is a little bit of history, a little bit of prophecy, it's sort of this curious combination of imagery and history kind of stuff. But when you go to Genesis again, a little bit of prehistory, and then Abraham steps in and we we're following the story of a character.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Yeah, and I and I think one thing, and this is where I would I would offer a strong word of caution. If we think that the creation story is designed to be a scientific document, which we shouldn't, but if we are if we do, then we're obliged to treat the rest of the text in the same way. And if we do that, where does that lead us when Abraham and Sarah or their descendants, or the judges and the priests and the prophets and the monarchs behave in ways that are not in ways we don't understand and value? What does that do for us? When it becomes prescriptive rather than descriptive, or rather than an announcing of God's reign in the world, or a conversation with God about faith and hope and healing and justice or whatever it might be, then we are leaving ourselves in a place where I want to say the scripture writers did not intend for us to be. Yes. And that's and that's risky. And I mean, I don't want to get into the conversation about the political climate right now, but we are in that place where some people would claim the imprimata of God being present on our side in the world, and that is a dangerous place to be. And I would caution your listeners if any priest, preacher or priest or prophet says to you, I know the mind of God for every circumstance, they're the ones you walk away from. Except you or me. Of course, apart from me. Yeah, yeah. And you can leave your offering at the number below.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

Yeah. Um and also, like, if we're looking at the story, you're looking at the scriptures and seeing what the voice is saying in it, as we read some of Paul's writings, we're looking at one side of a debate. Yeah, it's profound teaching and it shapes who we are. Like really important stuff. But you are actually looking at Paul debating with someone, and quite often we actually don't know the other side of the debate. We can guess it.

unknown 34:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

But but it's when he's when he's responding, he is teaching us, but we actually he's responding to a person or a or a community.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

And I mean, it fascinates me too. Like I've been around a long time now. I'm an old white fella, I've been around a long time. And I could name you, I reckon, without too much trouble, the 10 to 15 verses that people are going to quote you off by heart from Paul's letters. And the other mounds of documentation that Paul writes about in a whole range of ways never get quoted anywhere. But we get told about all the wages of sin are death. You get told that one. We know that one off by heart. We know that women being told to shut up in church, we know that one off by heart. But the larger corpus of Paul's writings, we just leave to lie. And I think that's a reflection of people wanting simplistic answers rather than saying, how do we converse with God in the life of the world in which we live?

SPEAKER_00 35:27

Yeah, it's a really powerful question.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Yeah. It's a very and I and I can say I I think they're all important conversations, but I don't want to pretend that when we talk about, for example, you know, looking at Romans as I meant Romans opened my eyes to faith in a new way when I was going through college. The idea that we can summarize that in a five, six page, eight-page tract and hand that around, I mean, dear Lord, what the hell is that? I mean, seriously, the most profound theology perhaps in all of scripture, and we summarise it in five in five pages with a cartoon. I mean, really?

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Yeah, it's a really interesting question, isn't it? Summarizing but but but being brave enough to read like one of the reasons why with a Bible study group that I that I work with, we actually read a chapter at a time and then have a conversation about that chapter.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Um, because I think that actually helps us see the bigger story that is coming across. Sometimes if we contract it into one or two verses, we miss we miss God's voice in the midst of it. We turn it into a yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

And get rid of those titles at the beginning of each chapter or each each section. Get rid of them. They they they lead you astray or or form your thinking before you read it. Yeah, absolutely. That's fine. That's a great idea, Rich. Great idea.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Yeah. Well, and I actually find it really quite frustrating that quite often we we lock ourselves to the chapter because we really should read a little bit before and a little bit after any of this.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's great, really good. Yeah, and be entitled to bash it around, you know. And I think one of the great blessings that that both liberation and feminist theology have done for us is to ask that profound question from a different angle. To ask that profound question from a point of view of the ones who hear it differently. Like I mentioned that third world um theologian talking about the Good Samaritan parable. You know, I mean, I I read feminist theology on the story of Hagar. You know, how do you read that story? How do you hear what's going on there? And that doesn't mean it's right or wrong. It means how do people hear that story when they're not me?

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

And I think one of the things we have to do, well, that's that's one of the things that I like to do whenever I read a piece of scripture, is I I want to hear what is God saying in this verse today?

SPEAKER_02 38:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

You know, and and I think it's a sort of a yesterday, today, and forever kind of question. You know, what was it saying at the time that it was written?

SPEAKER_02 38:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

What is it saying to me today with that knowledge of what it was saying at the time that it was written? And what is the eternal message from God that is contained in this as well?

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

And and those three really are quite powerful.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

That's excellent. Because I was just, as you talked, reminded me of a clip I saw go past on Instagram yesterday, a person talking about the poet poetry there of G.K. Chesterton, in which Chesterton states, God is younger than us. And what he meant was, God is new every morning. Yes. When the sun rises. And I think, oh, that's excellent. This God who has is and always has been is new every morning. Yes. And Bultmann, who people will criticize for his theology being different kind of theology, would say, I when someone asked him, did you believe in Jesus Christ? He said, I'm saved by Jesus Christ every morning as I get out of bed. I'm saved by Jesus Christ every morning. And I think this idea of what's, you know, that song we used to sing, The Steadfast Love of the Lord Never Ceases, his mercies never come to an end. They are new every morning, new every morning. This idea of God's story is new every morning for us. This forgiveness is new every morning, this mercy is new every morning, this wonder is new every morning. And I think that gets me something that the dusty old tomes don't give me. And I think that's really important to talk about, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Solomon, I could we could natter aimlessly around in circles for hours.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

And we have, which is many years ago. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

Is there any more that you would want to say to Devron's question of, you know, did did God really make the world? Is there and I suppose the things that I was wanting to draw out is that the the Bible is 66 books and all different styles, and that we need to read them with the mind analyzing what they are in their style.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

So just talking to Devrah, but talking to all of your congregation, your community. I heard the other day that in Australia, I think they discover, I'm gonna get that, I'm gonna get the species wrong, but I think they discover a new bug or something like that every couple of days in Australia. And I want to say to Davron, did God really make the world? I want to make the question bigger. God continues to make the world. God is engaged in this ongoing making of the world, a creating of the world, that it did not cease whenever how many million years ago the first story was sun. But God continues to create the world. And we are part of that story, a part of God's newness every morning. And I think that's a really important thing to say. God has not ceased to create. And in the story of God in Jesus Christ, one of the theologians would say there was the first creation and then the recreation, the new creation of God in Jesus Christ. And that's that sense of God's ongoing presence in the world. And to look for that is one of the gifts and mercies of God.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Oh, and I think for me, like I I mentioned on Sunday, and I know I'm re rekindling the conversation. I mentioned on Sunday that science was originally a branch of theology. Absolutely. And and for me, it still is in my head because it is it is studying what God has done and what God is doing.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Well, I mean, um one of the uh the Wesley's mottos was Infiday Skientiam, you know, to our faith add knowledge. Skientiam is knowledge, to our faith add knowledge, you know. Great.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Yeah. Oh, so nice. I do like that. Um is there anything else you would like to say today, son?

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Oh, I just want to say to the people who are joining this conversation, I think the idea that God continues to seek us out and to know that we are looked for continually by God gives me a sense of hope in the world when so much of the world around us will brush us aside or airbrush us from experience. To know that the God, the creator of the universe, knows us by name and continues to look us for look for us gives me a sense of hope and life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

Yeah. Oh thank you very, very thank you very, very much, Simon, for joining us. It's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

Richard, thank you for asking.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Now, just a couple of things for people that are listening from my congregation. Things that are coming up. One, the last Sunday in July. Just keep in mind that we have coffee and cars the last Sunday in July. Um, once so we've just started it last year. I don't know how many years it'll run. But so on the 26th of July, at the end of the service, we're going to have a few interesting cars that are going to be apart. I think we've got three or four hot rods. We've got a um, is it a Maserati or a Ferrari or something coming along and a few other bits and pieces? Um, yeah, so and a Leyland P76. Can you remember one of those? Oh, yes, they were a valuable car. Yeah, it's one. You can put an oil drum in the boot. Um so you need to, would you? Yeah. Yes, yeah, just to get down the road. So we've got coffee and cars. Um, so we're gonna have pizza and coffee and a few cars to look at at the end of the service. That's one thing to note. The other is you'll hear about it this coming Sunday, hopefully, or the Sunday after. We're starting to do a survey of our congregation in preparation for our next five-year mission plan. So we're gonna survey our congregation with some thoughts and ideas. So I think that's the primary notices from Terrival at this point in time. Right. Um, Simon, thank you so much. And um, thank you for listening.