Why does God allow suffering ?

This week Phil Rogers and Rev Sue Scott delve into the big question- Why does God allow suffering ?

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Well hi everybody. The first thing you'll notice is this is not Richard. Richard's having um a well-deserved break at the moment. So my name is Phil. I've spoken on one of two of these podcasts in the past. I'm an elder here at church, but I'm joined also by the Reverend Sue Scott, who's also a member of our church. So hello, Sue. How are you today?

SPEAKER_03 0:27

I'm well, thank you. And it's good to be here. And I'm looking forward to our conversation.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Well, yeah, it's a big one, isn't it? It really is a big one.

SPEAKER_03 0:39

Enormous. Enormous.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

And look, it's the question. Well, we're doing that series on big questions, and somebody submitted some questions that I think Richard sent through to you and me. Um, one was a general question about why does God allow suffering? But then there was a very heartfelt personal message um from somebody within our congregations asking, why would God let a young baby die when it hadn't had a chance to live? And that's that's a hard question.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

It is, it is. And when um before I was in ministry, I worked uh in an organization called Family Support many years ago. Then I worked in disability, and I saw a number of babies born and not live long. And it was tragic, absolutely tragic. And for those families, at that time, there was just an outpouring of grief.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

How could you let this happen?

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Yeah, why God? Yes, so unfair, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 1:52

Yeah. And and people were just um in disbelief that this could happen. And then we discovered that the child was born with some uh some sort of disability or disease that that meant that they were never going to live long. And I've also worked with families with children with Rhett's syndrome, and Rhett's syndrome is a di is a genetic disease that affects only girls.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

And they may live till their mid-teens, and then they die.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

And so they begin life normally, and then from about I don't know, early years they start to regress. So you see people in their most vulnerable state, and for some people God is never part of the equation, and for others, they're struggling with trying to work out where God is.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

I was going to ask you that. Does it really uh for those parents who are Christian, it would really shake their faith, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_03 3:04

It would. It would. And also children dying in those tragic circumstances. Um I remember years ago there was a guy who headed uh Youth for Christ on the coast, and they lost a son to drowning at Terigal. And it was just one of those freak things. They were there, and it just happened so quickly. How they they they modelled something that I think so few people can do. They carried on with their faith and didn't try to understand everything at that time, but people around them were just so compassionate and caring, and there was no blaming, it was just they were being loved and being shown that compassion, and they continued on in ministry in different ways.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Yeah, and yet for other people uh going through similar circumstances, it would have um a completely different impact upon them, I suppose.

SPEAKER_03 4:13

Yes, yes, and um no explanation will ever bring back their child. No, and so that's very hard. But but having lost a brother at a young age, he was 32, it becomes how do I make sense of that? He had a baby who was 10 months old when he died, yeah, and a toddler who was two, who really didn't know their father. You know, so you you question how could this happen? And yet I see my nephew who's now fifty and his sister, and I think they've been enabled through loving parenting and other family to continue on their Christian path.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:11

And and I find that hopeful. I really do.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

I agree, but um doesn't really answer the question, I don't think, does it? Why I mean I did some reading because I I took the 8 a.m. clock service. I know you did the the main service at 10, but I I well, they're both main services. I took the eight, and um yeah, one of the things I came across during my reading, and you will know this because you've been theologically trained, but um there are three truths, and people say they can't well, they can't all be true at the same time. The first truth um is that God is good, and we know God is good. Yes, I mean yeah, we just know, we don't have to sort of explore that. We know God is good. We just look at the um the way Jesus acted and behaved in the New Testament, and we know God is good.

SPEAKER_03 6:04

And and Jesus is that image of God that we can really connect with.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Absolutely. So that's one truth, and I think we can all take that box and sign on to that one. The other truth is that God is, I think the word for it is omnipotent, but it basically means God is in in control, he's all powerful, he is He is God. Yeah, and I think people take that box and say, yeah, I can sign on to that one, but then there is a third truth, and is the third truth is, but there is brutal, raw, ugly pain and suffering in the world. How do we, as Christians, live with those three truths without saying, well, just doesn't make any sense. It if God is all-loving and all-powerful, how come there is suffering? It just yeah, we we we get unstuck at that point.

SPEAKER_03 7:00

We do, we do. And I was I did a lot of thinking about this as well, and because we can explain some of it through through people who are evil.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Yeah, free will.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

Yeah, the free will comes into it, and Lee will be exploring that more next week. Oh, right. Next Sunday. But I I think the free will that we are given means that we m that a lot of people make choices given their situation in life. Now, if you've gr grown up in a war zone and all you know is fear, then your choices are going to be different from mine, who grew up on a farm in Terrigal on Duffy's Road, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 7:49

It's going to be very, very different. If you have been treated badly, if you know, there's or if you have a taste of what a bit of money can do, and you become greedy, that power takes control and treads on others.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

And and you have the choice to do that, sadly.

SPEAKER_03 8:15

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

Yeah. So yeah, I yeah, that's true that and I suppose that's true of all of us. We all have uh the gift of free will, which can be used for good, but I could go out by a gun and shoot somebody. It's free will.

SPEAKER_03 8:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

Doesn't get to the disease and the um the natural disasters though, does it?

SPEAKER_03 8:37

Well, some well, no, because but in some ways there is still some explanation because you think of I was thinking of Bangladesh. Bangladesh is built on a river delta. No one should be living in Bangladesh. No. Be or unless you can find some high ground, but that's the sad fact. The when they get a really bad monsoon, there's so much that happens. Plus, all the uh erosion and stuff that has meant that the rivers uh exploding their banks and their stuff being washed away. Now Africa is an example of that as well, where people are forced into certain sometimes into certain areas. There have been in Australia, in New Guinea, and lots of places where mining has devastated places, and then there'll be uh collapse of a dam wall and people will be killed.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

Then there's earthquakes. And if you're poor, you probably don't get a chance to choose where you live.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

No, no.

SPEAKER_03 9:50

And so that becomes difficult too.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

That yeah, so there is again, yeah, there's a partial explanation. And I think if I hear what you're saying, is you're saying that um how we live, where we build, how we treat the planet has consequences.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

It does.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

It does.

SPEAKER_03 10:07

And um, and in Western cultures, as we become more affluent, and there's a fair bit of greediness within that. I I think we look at the recent latest or the first trillionaire, and we go, that's in that's awful. It's just awful. And we and we think that could just about solve world hunger. But then I looked up the UN's figures.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:41

There are 343 million people on the brink of food insecurity, is the term they use. In other words, they can't feed all the people on the World Food Programme, they're running out of food, and that's 12, more than 12 times Australia's population. And we go, we can't, you know, that overwhelms you. You can't fix that. But I guess I'm saying, I'm pointing to the problems. Where is God? And I and you go, this is where I think you you pointed when we had a discussion during the week, you pointed out the divine theodicy. That's where we are challenged to trust in God, yeah, even though we can find no explanation.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

And that's exactly what um that was the um experience that Job had, didn't he? Because he lost um his health, he lost three of his sons, they died, lost all his business, financial little empire. Um, and at one point, I think in the book of Job, it said he was left sitting in an ash pit, scratching at the scabs on his body, and you think, yeah, there's brutal suffering. And for 40 something chapters, he rails at God, he questions God, and eventually he gets to speak to God. And so he Job says, Why God? And what did you uh what did God say?

SPEAKER_03 12:16

And God said, Who, you know, why question me? You know, I am God, yeah, and it this is not your place to you know really question. I'm not answering that properly, but Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

And I think he said, Do you trust me, Job? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

And and Job's faithfulness is extraordinary. I I don't know that I could have that. And I and I just and I go, what an extraordinary story of still trusting God, even though his friends came and said, You must have sinned, you must have done all these terrible things.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

Yeah. And that's one point that the book of Job makes very clear that pain and suffering is not divine punishment for anything you've done or anybody else has done. So yeah, I know that was a thought that people had at one time, you know, years ago, but no, we can rule that out completely, can't we? It's not punishment. No, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

Um one of the directions I took on Sunday was looking at the story of Joseph. Joseph being sold into slavery in for 20 pieces of silver. And he and and it goes on from chapter 37 to chapter 50. What we see is that Joseph he doesn't particularly rail against God. He accepts, well, this is where I am, but he has this gift of being able to interpret dreams. And he ends up in in uh, firstly in Potiphar's house, and then he ends up interpreting the Pharaoh's dreams about the seven years of good and the seven years of famine. And then Pharaoh puts him as two ICs, he's in charge of all this preparation that goes on. And finally, it comes to back where the family is in Canaan, that they've they're running out of food and they have to go to Egypt and sort of beg for, you know, they'll pay for it, and beg for food. And so Joseph encounters them. In the end, when Jacob dies, Joseph is, you know, his brothers come to him and plead for them, plead for mercy, please forgive us. And he said, Who am I? I'm not God. I can't punish you. I forgive you. And there was this growing reconciliation that happened. And this story reminds us that God doesn't cause all the suffering, but God can at times you can be present in the suffering. And that for the good. And so the promise to Abraham of generations to come was preserved.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:29

And and so I think it's a very hopeful story about that thing. We can't explain why the suffering. But God can use it. Doesn't mean God always does, or we can't always understand where God is in the story.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Do you think we live in an age where we, you know, since the Enlightenment, since we've had sort of logic and reason and science, we live in an age where we want an answer, you know, we almost demand an answer. And do you think people feel a little uncomfortable living in the not knowing?

SPEAKER_03 16:06

Yes. Because we like to know what's going to happen next week. We've got our diaries. That's right. And we've got our diaries prepared months ahead. Um, we are creatures of habit, I suppose, in that we we follow that. That's our Western tradition, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 16:28

Yeah, we want to know.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

We want to know.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

And God has given us that mind which is in qu an inquiring mind, and we go to Google. I'm not, I'm gonna look up the answer to that, but we're not so comfortable living with mystery, and you mentioned earlier it is a divine mystery, and I think people um are a little uncomfortable with living in the mystery because they want an answer. And I mentioned um when I was talking yesterday, um you you you are a theology uh graduate, um, but I was a solicitor, um, and so we discussed when I was looking at it in the eight, what if we were to put God on trial uh for being indifferent or uncaring? And I was mentioning the way you are trained as a lawyer to look at both sides of the story before you come to review, and we sort of had a little sort of play, sort of play with the idea of what would the prosecution present to prove that God was uncaring, and he would present some of the things we've been talking about, the the earthquakes, um the the the children who are born and then die very quickly, um, disease, cancer, motor neuron disease, all the really brutal, ugly examples of suffering, including that of Job. And that's a strong case. I think the prosecution would have a really strong case against God, but we mustn't make our judgment now, because that's just the prosecution case. Now the defense gets up, and the defense, I think, they would bring strong evidence of God's good character. We know God is good, we know it. We're Christians, we know God, we know he is merciful, he's loving, he's kind, his answers to prayer, so many answers to prayers that all of us have had in our time. Um, we see the beautiful personality of Jesus in the New Testament, how he went out of his way to find those broken people, those who are suffering, and wrap his arms around them, and where he could, he would heal them. But of course, he couldn't heal everybody, he couldn't be, you know, all places at all times. So we can put that on the other side, and then we said, looking at both sides of the equation, you know, the pain of suffering, but all the other things you know about the goodness of God, is there enough there to convict God beyond all reasonable doubt of being uncaring? And I think we came to the conclusion, or the conclusion, no, I came to the conclusion, um, that when you look at both sides of that argument, you just stand back and you think, there's something missing here. I don't know what it is, but there is something missing because I know God is good. I have He has answered my prayers, I have felt him in a really tangible way, he's been part of my life, and I just read about him, Jesus in the New Testament. I know God is good, but I also can see the pain and suffering, and I come to the point where there's something missing that I don't understand. There's something going on here that I don't get, otherwise, it yeah, and so I don't think there is enough to commit God. There's a missing piece of the jigsaw somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 19:47

That's a good um statement there, missing piece of the jigsaw, and we as a community have been looking at the spirit in this, you know, before coming to big questions. And I think in our Western culture, you're right, about we need to find answers, and I can picture the jury here pondering all of this, and there is something to say about as you we say, the mystery, but where is God's spirit? If God is within us as well, how do we listen well and understand? Because we do very rarely pause and really listen in our prayers. We we uh we do get answers, and I think there's incredibly faithful prayers in our community, and I've experienced that many years ago when I was in a difficult time, and my mother and her friends here were praying. But I also know I have experienced some of that mystery. Yeah, and and you know, I recall after my mother died sitting on my deck and just having a sense of God's peace, being with me and knowing that God was with us and mum was at peace. There was no, I wasn't angry. I was I could in that moment I missed her terribly, but I had a peace.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

And I think we need to be still and know that I am God, and we're not always very good at that.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Another thing that I another analogy I came up or came read about really was um it goes to our uh uh ability to understand these matters, and because we think that because we can put a man on a And that we we are so superior intellectually to everything else. But actually, it was saying, or the book I was reading was was explaining if you had to explain the concept of time to a toddler, um, how the earth revolved around the sun and it took 365 days, and then we split it into months, and there are 12 of those, and then we have these days, and we've got these hours, and we've got these minutes, and the toddler's thinking, I don't I get I don't understand any of this. Trying to explain to a toddler how when he hits a little switch on the wall, the light comes on. Now you could explain that by explaining that hundreds of kilometres away um there is a power station burning fuel or renewable energy, it's driving turbines that whiz round and that's sort of pumped into the electric grid and it comes down these power, it goes into your house, and then you know, when uh electricity is crossed um passed across the filament of an electric bulb, it glows with incandescent. No. The toddl is no. He just knows that when he hits the switch, the light comes on. And I think I wonder why I wonder why maybe if that's what God was saying to Job, he was saying to Job, you weren't Job, you're just not gonna understand. There are so many things happening in this world. You see the top third of the iceberg, there's two thirds that are completely hidden, and I'm afraid, Job, you you just don't have the intellectual understanding or ability to understand, but you just gotta trust me on this one, Job.

SPEAKER_03 23:37

And and um for for all of us, and I think Richard pointed out the week before about being created in God's image, but we're not an exact image. No, no. And we and that's where we we just cannot know the full mind of God.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

And I don't want to because if I could understand God, I mean that would but that would belittle him to my size. It's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

Yeah. And um there is a book called Your God Is Too Small. You know, we we we bring, as Richard said, we bring God down.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

We make him in our own image, don't we?

SPEAKER_03 24:18

I think uh when we go to Jesus, we see that image of God, even though it's two years ago we see those and hear the stories and gain incredible insight into the nature of God.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:36

And on Sunday I used a reading from John as well, because it was on his way to the cross, and he tells the disciple, look after Mary, yeah, and then you know, here is your son. And so and then he says it is finished. It's like this is this is my this is where this party ends. Yes. Now we know what happens after in the resurrection, but I love this bit because here he was in his earthly dying moment, caring for his mother and the disciple and showing enormous love. And I've seen that in people who die. Make sure, so and so.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:30

And you go, God loves us so much that he wants to ensure that we are looked after and that we are cared for. Now that's my Western perspective. But I've also seen in people with disabilities this ability to just trust God.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

And it's not something that I I in some I don't envy it, but I can see it and think that's amazing that you just trust that God is with you.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

And it's not a cop-out, an intellectual cop-out. It's just an acknowledgement that there is a mystery here, and I I I can sit comfortably in that mystery.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

We did um many years ago at Gosford, we did um Alpha, and I was advocate for one of the men in the church who had an intellect who has an intellectual disability. And I said, Do you want to come? And and people were going, why? Do you want him to come? And I thought, no, he he's part of our community, and he could watch and understand the video. And during the evening, I would take him outside so he could have a smoke, um, but he could, I could say, and what did you think of that? And blah blah. So we had the camp and we did the Holy Spirit weekend, and he came up to me and said, I want that.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:07

I want that. You just knew you pray, you pray, and you go, God, you are amazing. None of us, you know, that was just God's work. Yeah, that was not anything I did or anyone else. That was the spirit at work in that place.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:27

And and I go, this, I have seen these gifts, but also I've seen that I I want to read you this quote that I used yesterday because I think it's a beautiful quote. And it says, This is from a book called My Body Is Not a Prayer Point. So it's written by someone with cerebral palsy. For every disabled person wondering whether you fit in, fretting that you are too much, you with your canes, crutches, walker, chemical sensitivities, and more, you are worthy of belonging. And that sums up what I've learned that even though we see suffering, that not everyone sees themselves the same way. You also posed a question at the beginning about what will happen to people. We were talking about that.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:31

And so that is true in lots of ways because I understood that greatly. But I've also worked with um, spent time with two men who had cerebral palsy. And one said, I'm going to be healed when I'm in heaven. And the other said, Why? Aren't you happy with how you are? And you go, I can't understand that. I can't fully explain that. But each of them had a different experience, but somehow trusted God.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Yeah. Yeah. Um, to answer the lady who submitted that question about the young baby, I found um a story. I don't know whether you remember Adrian Plas, he's a UK author. Very popular in the 90s. He must be.

SPEAKER_03 29:20

We went to see him in Newcastle.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

Well, there you go. He says he was at one of these Christian conventions um where he was a guest speaker, and he said he thought it went well, and the audience were laughing in all the right spots. So he felt quite pleased with himself. He was looking forward to the um the meal afterwards, a nice glass of wine and a nice meal. He felt, yes, he felt good with the world. And he said he stepped down off the stage, and then, as usual, he said, there's a cue forming up, but most of them have got his latest book, and they just wanted him to sign it. So he knew what was happening as he saw this cue forming. But then he said, I looked at the first woman in that line, and she was not holding his book. And he said, I looked at her face, her eyes were red-rimmed, and he could see on her face that this lady had been punched by life in some horrible way. But he said, you know, she she came, he couldn't say you had to engage with her, and she just said to him, I lost my little baby five days ago. I just want to know where Jesus was in that. And he said in a millisecond, he had a couple of thoughts go through his mind. The first one was that there must be something in the Bible, it must be a clever quote about, you know, of you know, divine goodness or how God takes the best first. There must be something I can give her, something in the Bible which will make this better for her. But he said, No, I quickly dismissed that. And he said, the very best part of me, which he said was inhabited by the Holy Spirit in that moment, said nothing. And all he said to this lady was, she asked him why, where why was this happening? And he said, I haven't the faintest idea. I do not know. I wish I'd do, but I don't know. And then he said, I allowed myself to become the hands and feet of Jesus. I just hugged this woman, and she cried and she cried and I hugged her, and that's what she needed. Clever intellectual, you know, it's not gonna cliches are not gonna work.

SPEAKER_03 31:23

Often um being the hands and feet of Jesus is the best we can be when people are hurting deeply.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:35

And in chaplaincy, sometimes it means just even though it Job's friends spoke too much, but sitting with him in the dirt, sometimes sitting with people don't have to say anything. Don't have to say anything.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

So sometimes the answer to why, um, the answer isn't found in words. No, it's found in presence of other good good Christian believers. Just be present with people and sit in that mystery that we will not understand. But um, and I've found I I finished off my little talk with a rev uh quote from Revelation, I think it's a Revelation 21 somewhere, which says, um, when we get to heaven, all our tears will be wiped away, there will be no more crying, no more suffering. And I think, okay, you know, there's the promise. Yeah. Then we might understand, but this side of eternity, I I I trust God and I happy living in that mystery.

SPEAKER_03 32:37

Yeah. I think I that was at the end of mine, it was coming to that conclusion of trusting that we have seen people do for a long time, not just biblical characters, but someone like Nelson Mandela sitting in the jail on Robin Island, or other people we know of who've just simply trusted that God is there amongst all the mess.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Yeah. Well, so I think we ought to wrap this up. Um, I hope we've done justice to the subject, Richard. Uh continue to enjoy your holiday if you're listening. But Sue, thank you very much. It's been really good.

SPEAKER_03 33:19

Thank you, Phil. That's been an engaging conversation. I've enjoyed it. Thanks.