TUC Talks
Every week the Rev Richard Harris and special guests delve deeper into the reading of the week.
TUC Talks
All scripture is inspired by God
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On this weeks episode of TUC Talks, Rev Richard Harris is joined by special guest, Steve Molk to discuss the notion that all scripture is inspired by God, from this weeks reading - 2 Timothy 3:14-4:5
#church #terrigal #timothy #reading #bible
Hello everyone. It is TC Talks, Terrible Uniting Church Talks. Um what a fabulous name. Yeah. I would like to welcome our guest today, Steve Mulkington or Mulk. Terrific Uniting Church Talks, Richard, dare I say.
SPEAKER_00It is a fantastic statement there. Yes. Yeah. Welcome, Malk. It's good to be back. It feels like forever since I've been on this podcast and you've just gone leaps and bounds. I know. I know. We've got it, we've got another two listeners. Amazing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Hello to both of them. So everyone, we are today talking about Sunday the 30th of August. August. Thank you. I was about to go somewhere else that it wasn't August. Sunday, the 30th of August, and we are looking at our second last reading from 2 Timothy. It's 2 Timothy 3, 14 through to chapter 4, verse 5.
SPEAKER_00Well, let's be fair, Richard. You haven't left much in the tank as far as 2 Timothy goes, so it would have to be the second last reading from 2 Timothy. Like as I mentioned on Sunday, it has been hard work. Mate, Paul is hard work, so that's a fair statement.
SPEAKER_01It's been a really big challenge going through 2 Timothy. But this week, I've got to say that when I first read it, I thought, oh no, what am I going to say? But but as I started to look at it, it really got interesting for me.
SPEAKER_00I think you acquitted yourself well, Richard. And I think it's uh it's a passage, it's a group of verses that are fraught, sorry, that can be fraught in the wrong hands. And I think that what you very delicately wove through for us was here is, you know, what we understand is being said based on scholars and those sorts of things. Here's how we can talk about what it might mean for us. And beware, beware that some of these things, some people might take in a different direction to the way I'm talking. And that might be right, or that might be a bit of a challenge. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So everyone, it is Paul talking about how scripture has holds him and scripture holds Timothy on the right path. And the thing that we've got to remember is that the scripture he's talking about here is primarily the Pentateuch. It's Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Great bedtime reading. All of them. Yeah, we never get into Leviticus for too long. Have you read Deuteronomy recently? It's not much better. That can be hard work. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So, but that's when he talks about the scriptures, that's what he's talking about. And and it's it's it's this glorious, like the almost a preamble of the way he talks about scripture and and those sorts of things. I remember kids, you've got to learn your scripture like we did when we were young. Um, I think even acknowledging you brought up that that for a number of the people who were probably hearing this letter, beyond Timothy, for them it was stuff that they weren't learnt wrote. Like they didn't get up and read at the temple. You know, they they will have heard it many times and heard the stories passed down and all of those sorts of things, but then personally, they learnt it from hearing it, they didn't learn it from reading it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like like so for many of the Jewish people of the first century, they would have they would have been able to sort of quote the whole of those five books. Large chunks or entirely, yeah. Yeah, large chunks or entirely, they would know it off by heart.
SPEAKER_00Which is such an interesting beast when you consider it, because if we set that task to any human today other than a theologian, no. Like I'm not going to learn the first five books of the Bible like to have memory. Many Christians don't read much of the first five books of the Bible. And therein brings our first, you know, area of fraughtness, doesn't it? Because we acknowledge as as people of the New Covenant that largely the work of Jesus and what's happening is the things that we focus on very frequently. And in fact, a lot of our um yearly annual theological calendar is based around what happens to Jesus. Yes. Um right, that we should remember and celebrate and all those things. However, it's called the New Covenant for a reason. You know, the old covenant exists back here, the old testament stuff, as foundational, formational, and dare I say it, even stuff that God's gonna teach us and has application in our lives today, admittedly, through maybe a filter of this is how Jesus has taken it and taught it, or reminds us that actually, no, this is what this is saying. So Paul is of the same ilk. He's like, hey, you've got to know this to remember this and those sorts of things, even to the point where he reminds us, depending on the version that you're reading, that all scripture, whatever we're going to lean into and saying what scripture is, is you know, God breathed, is inspired by God, is going to be comes from God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yes. And one of the things that I love at the start of this passage that we were looking at is that he basically says, all this, you know, this scripture, you remember what you learnt when you were a child, remember the scriptures that you hold to, for they will prepare you for salvation in Jesus Christ. Yes. So, in a sense, so often in the church we separate the Old Testament as almost like a history document, and that the New Testament is the Jesus stuff, and therefore that is the stuff that is our faith. Yeah. But but but Paul is basically saying the the the Old Testament here is the stuff that prepares us for salvation in Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_00And and and in recognizing that, like this opens so many, like so many doors. This is a labyrinthine kind of problem for us here. Yeah. Because not not not in what Paul tells us, but in the way that we've then read it and taken it to have myriad meanings, depending on what branch of faith we want to lean into. Because like up front, we need to say that our Jewish brothers and sisters, the scripture that Paul's talking about is their lifeblood still today. Yeah, that's the stuff that they look to every Saturday, Friday night, Saturday when they meet, they gather, they they you know celebrate everything that God is doing for them, Yahweh. That's where they turn. They look talk to the prophets, they they get all that stuff as well, but this this is home. Yes. So they're learning from that. And Paul's saying, Yep, you learn from this.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Understanding that this is going to help you in your salvational, you know, movements with Jesus, who took all of this and frankly helping me dumbed it down a little bit, made it a little bit simpler.
SPEAKER_01Look, Jesus definitely takes it and sort of say, well, here's the bare bones.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Like not to be dismissive of what went before in scripture, but really just to say, guys, we made it a bit hard with 10 that you will turn into 300 and something. So let's just make it two commandments. Really simple.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. You're right. Jesus, he Jesus quite often summarizes this the Hebrew scriptures with his words or his actions. He normally will embrace the stuff that we need to hear and summarize it for us.
SPEAKER_00And this this becomes our problem, though, because Paul is living in a post-Jesus world and and has the stories and even you know the mark of some of he would be you know known or have spoken to some of the authors of the gospels, yes, not yet written, but coming. Yeah, um, he would know, apart from his interactions with you know, Jesus, of course, very you know, celebrated in how Paul came to faith and the stuff we know about all of this. We hit this vortex where Paul's gone, all scripture is you know, inspired, God breathed, God is involved in all of that.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Flash forward to, I mean, let's let's be generous and say 2026. There are some brothers and sisters amongst our global movement that is people who follow Jesus, that take that portion, just that verse, yes, and say, well, one, they extend all scripture to be the 66 books wrapped up in the little leather-bound thing that we carry, or it might not have a cover based on the sample that you showed us on screen.
SPEAKER_01Well, my my Bible my Bible has been worked hard.
SPEAKER_00Right, you loved your Bible so much you ripped the front cover off. Yes, yes. Um, but yeah, so they've taken it from being the first five books of the Bible to being all 66. So all of it, even the stuff written after this, well done, friends. I don't know how you manage that. Um, but then they also lean into it saying it's like inerrant. We can't question it because of this. And I I the bit that sticks in my craw particularly, um, in the NRSV, the the one that I read most often, it says that it's inspired by God. So not which straightaway says if it was inspired, that involves a God-human interaction, which instantly brings in acknowledging the work of God as perfect, an opportunity for human erroneousness to step in and misunderstand, write it in a certain way, before we get to the mega councils and church bodies that rewrite and reinterpret Bibles.
SPEAKER_01It definitely opens up for us an understanding of what is inspired by God mean. Like does it does it mean that they are writing it in a trance or like or and sometimes that's the case. Like that's if you look at what Revelation says, you know. Yeah, but John had some stuff going on. Let's yeah, John was saying, look, you know, I I had this vision, but then there are other people that write stuff like some of these are letters from one friend to another, or you know, Philemon. I love going back to Philemon because it's just a fantastic book. Because Paul is just lathering the guilt on someone to say, well, let your slave go. Yeah, come on, buddy. Yeah, yeah. And that kind of thing, I believe it is God inspired, but it's not it's not taking God's words and writing them on the page, it is Paul understanding the nature of God and writing to his friend saying, Yes, my friend, this is what we should do as a follower of God. This is this is our behaviour. I actually think we although we can't use this verse as a proof text to say all scripture is God. Well, you can't, many do, let's sure, but I still believe the concept that all the scripture is God inspired, is God breathed, and therefore it still holds true. It is useful for teaching.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it absolutely. I don't I don't mean to negate what it then goes on to talk about. It's it's just that what we get is inevitably those that take it and deliver it to us as meaning you can't question the physical words written in this book because it's inspired by God, um, because it's useful for teaching and all of the rest. Great, yes, it is, yeah, but this becomes the difficulty because like that whole rise of you know the inerrancy of scripture is in the let's talk it in the the God timeline, it's a blip. Like it's a modern 19th, late 19th century, late 20th century invention of largely white blokes saying, you can't question me because I'm someone that preaches the word of God and the word of God is inerrant, and this is scripture.
SPEAKER_01You can't, I'm reading what the scripture says, so you do what I say because the scripture says this, and it's like, okay, yeah, we've got to be careful with how we've got to actually use scripture intelligently, we've got to actually ask questions, and scripture has to shape who we are, undoubtedly, but we need to engage with it. We need to engage with it like it it is a teacher teaching us, yes, and and and in a conversation, like the scriptures, we should have a conversation with the scriptures, yeah, rather than rather than just sit back and just absorb.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it's it's the the the problem that I have grown through is that when I was a young person, I was taught to read the Bible as for what it is. There was there was whether it was the people that were teaching me or the time, because I'm an old man, Richard, let's be fair. Um the time that I was learning this or a lack of nuance in the people that were doing. It was just you read it and it's in black and white, and that's what God says. That's how it is, and that's how it applies to us today. There was none of this idea that we can have a conversation with scripture and say, well, hang on, well, what does this mean or why is this a thing? There was none of the conversation of saying, well, what's the context of who it's being written to, what's the time it's being written in, what's happening in that, you know, both receiver's end and writer's end of the world at the time when that's being put together. It was just, no, this is this is what it is. And I think we benefit absolutely today, um, as the church global by having really, really intelligent people, godly people who have spent a fair chunk of their lives, a, researching to understand, you know, biblical times when Paul was alive. This is what was happening in Israel, this is the socio-political climate, this is all these things going on. And then this is what it was life like was like for the splinter church, this growing Jesus community that had sprung up in the context of this. Yes. And they then did the same for when they wrote the first five books of the Bible. Moses was doing stuff and he was talking about things, and because they largely credit him for all of that. Like they did all of that stuff, and then they said, and you know what? We need to understand when they were writing it, why they were writing it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that means that we and as we do that, we then have a conversation with the scriptures for it to teach us because it it is the it is the primary way that we learn about what God's wanting us to hear and understand in the world. Yeah. And I think I think when you start to have a conversation with the scriptures, when you read it and struggle with it and ask the question, what does that mean today? Yeah. Because if we just read it and go, well, that's what it says, that's done, we actually fail to understand what it's saying today. For example, Jesus rescuing that woman that was going to be stoned to death because she was caught in adultery. Yes. Like the reality is we're not going to find too many women that are going to be stoned to death because uh they're caught in adultery. Not in 2026 in Australia at least. Not in 2026 in Australia at least. Therefore, we can either say that as a quaint story from history. Yes, how nice. Yeah, yeah. Jesus was lovely. Or we can then ask who are the people that we we push to the side or criticize or try to to injure in some kind of way that we need to stop and offer grace to, yeah, the same way that Jesus is offering grace to a woman who by the law is in the wrong. Yeah. Like so those men that were about to throw the rocks at her for her to die, they could do that because by the law she was wrong, and the law of the day, yeah, not the law of Australia in 2026, but the law of Israel 2,000 years ago, yeah. They were not in the wrong to stone her to death. But Jesus showed her grace. Now the question is for us who are the people we show grace to?
SPEAKER_00Oh, and 800%. Like these questions, this understanding context and looking at who and why and all of those sorts of things, does not negate God speaking to us through the ages through these words. It does not negate what is the us asking the question, what's the lesson for us? What is God saying to us today?
SPEAKER_01How is God speaking to us today?
SPEAKER_00Because if and because this became, I don't want to labor it. If if exactly right, if we lean into the literal, this is scripture and we can't question it, mate. There's a whole bunch of stuff going on in Leviticus that we all have some real problems with. Yes. If you're wearing a polycotton shirt, buddy, you're in some serious trouble.
SPEAKER_01Yes, because like a Leviticus, because Leviticus, everyone that's wondering what the polycotton shirt's about, Leviticus actually says you are not allowed to mix fibers. Yeah, no blended fabrics. No blended fabrics.
SPEAKER_00And so, in a sense, those rules of the Old Testament, if we take that as if we're gonna take it hard and fast literal, then we're in real trouble.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But we can actually, we need to have a dialogue with it. And of course, we look at that and we go, now Jesus is the new covenant. Yes. Therefore, now Jesus has changed.
SPEAKER_00But that's the get out of jail card, isn't it? For the people that subscribe to this, the inerrancy of scripture, you can't question it, you know, exactly as it's written down, that's what it is. But Leviticus says, Yeah, yeah, but Jesus fixed all of that. So it in those contexts, often, they do look to the Old Testament as like a history book that informs where we land. But everything that happens in the New Testament, that's that's the stuff that we do. And look, that is sort of true as well.
SPEAKER_01That's for us as yes, but there is a but. Well, one of the things, like what Paul is doing here is I don't see many ministers going making tents, mate. No, no, that's true.
SPEAKER_00That's true. Uh not these ones that are spouting that, you know, this needs to be a whatever and don't question me because I'm the pastor. How's your tent business, buddy? Okay. Paul here.
SPEAKER_01Sorry, Paul. No, no, that's okay. It's a I I can see that you've got onto your crap.
SPEAKER_00Come on, I've got to get off because there's other stuff we need to talk about.
SPEAKER_01Because Paul here is actually, he's he's drawing back into that old testament and going, This is the stuff that holds me to my faith. And we've got to remember the context that he's writing to here. Yeah. This is a church that is divided, and some of the division is because some of the people in that church are wanting to let go of Jesus and just hold back to the old testament.
SPEAKER_00And through a protege, someone that he's been caring for and teaching and training. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So he is saying to those people, yes, we hold on to this stuff, yeah, but that stuff there teaches us so that our salvation can be in Jesus.
SPEAKER_00I absolutely inform that you cannot be a bold theological statement from me. You cannot have the New Testament, you cannot have the work of Jesus without the Old Testament. Yes. Without the work of God and the people of Israel and all of the stuff that went on in all of that. We don't get to Jesus being who Jesus was and what Jesus did without that stuff building it through. So you're right, we need to hold fast to this. Yes, learn our lessons as much as we learn our lessons from how Jesus went. Yeah, that's exactly right. I'll make it a bit easier for you. Or, hey, what about this? Or Paul going, yeah, yeah, remember that, because that now means we can do this like this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But we we we need that foundation to actually have the New Testament flourish and speak to us. So the New Testament of the scriptures, they speak to us, and that is God speaking to us today.
SPEAKER_00There are like there's hardgoing bits in the Old Testament, no question. Yes. I'm gonna also stick my neck and say there are some hardgoing bits in the New Testament. Right? Open the book of Hebrews, friends, and have a good time there. Yeah, yeah. Because guess who that was written to? Frankly, not us. Like it is, we get to benefit and learn heaps from that letter, particularly, but the target audience was a whole bunch of super faithful Jews that went, you know what, we're in on this Jesus thing, but we also really love our Jewishness. Yeah, like cool, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You you're right, the New Testament has some really challenging bits. Like at the moment, how's your pigs? At the moment, I've got a Bible study group, we're reading through the book of Revelation. Oh, yeah. It is hard, brutal, hard work. Yeah, and and it's and you need to have so you need to spend so much time thinking about what is being said there and asking questions like so what is the symbolism here? What does it what is it really trying to say? Otherwise, you know, you're looking for a bloke that's standing tall with a sword poking out of his mouth. And and wondering, is he the sign of the end times?
SPEAKER_00But I was gonna ask, has has that Bible study group worked out a date? Do we have we determined now when Jesus is returning? Because that seems to be everybody's outcome from studying Revelation. Not yet. We come up with a date.
SPEAKER_01We've got another three, we've got another three chapters to go. Okay, good.
SPEAKER_00There is still time for enjoy um good old Paul, because he like I know that we break the chapters somewhat arbitrarily again through very intelligent people that have helped. It's a letter, right? He didn't stop and go, chapter four, yes, how you got it wrong. Um but when we we build into that the end part, the second part of this week's reading, there's this really great thing that that um Paul leans into in his very like his Trinitarian way, where he will bring up three points, three key things, and you need to know this and do this and do this. And it's where is it here? I solemnly urge you proclaim the message, yes, be persistent whether the time is favorable or unfavorable, and is my word, convince, rebuke, and encourage with the utmost patience in teaching. Now, my little reflection on that is that often, again, even though there's lots of great semicolons and stuff in the English translation of that, that we read it as this is all of the things that we need to do. And and fair it is. Yes. I was doing some some study in preparation for this and read a really great piece from a writer that said, you know what? All those things don't happen at once.
SPEAKER_01That's a really good point.
SPEAKER_00That the intention is to, it's almost like a one, two, three. It leans from this to this to this. So the first part is proclaim the message.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00We go out, we we uh the evangelists that God called us to be, or we, as you mentioned uh in the quote attributed to Francis of Assisi, you know, share the good news, sometimes use words.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Sick, good work, buddy, well done. Um, so do that. And then the next phase, when we've maybe got a few people who go, you know what, I'm interested in this Jesus guy, be persistent whether the time is favorable or unfavorable.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And the favorable and unfavorable is interesting, isn't it? Because we often think, oh, we've just got to write for the right time.
SPEAKER_00Oh, we're doing it, I'm not seeing any fruit from my labor, so I guess I have to give up. Have I really been listening to what God wants?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And it's favorable or unfavorable, it's be persistent at all times.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Stick in. Yeah. And then once you've got the people that are going, we're in, we're gonna do this, at that point, convince, rebuke, and encourage with the utmost patience in teaching.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's not about, you know, Leviticus says blah, blah, blah, condemn you to hell because of your tattoos. It's yes, like again in this version, convince, rebuke, and encourage. Convince. It's not even like just stand up on the corner and tell them and have them expect them to just swallow it whole. You need to have some, both some God-inspired skill, some learned talent, and frankly, the wiliness of the serpent that they talk about sometimes as someone who can go, you know what, here's the bit that you need to hear, how you need to hear it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and convincing someone that this that our faith is important to us. Yeah. It really is lovely. Paul, you when we read this passage, you can actually see Paul talking to someone that he's a protege, someone that he has trained and taught, and him saying, Now, now remember, you are preaching this, you are, you are spreading this good news, you are convincing these people of the news of Jesus Christ, and then you are gonna have patience in teaching them.
SPEAKER_00There's elements of a shorthand in the way he is writing, you know, in speaking, but also that, yeah, it is this like we have talked about this at length. We have talked, and this is my reminder to you that these are the things that that are are gonna help you in engaging in ministry in the many and varied places that you're gonna find yourself. Yeah. Um, and and just that idea that that if we engage with people, like if we're gonna be a part of what was it again? Here it is, be persistent, sorry, proclaim the message, be persistent, favorable, unfavorable, and then convince, rebuke, and encourage. There will be times when you just say, hey, that's actually probably not like I I love your passion. That's probably not what we're seeing and hearing and understanding the gospel saying to us.
SPEAKER_01And we shouldn't, yeah. I I the the the the correction stuff is something we're often frightened to do.
SPEAKER_00Or should I say I'm frightened to do? But but but that's a fair response in a human nature kind of vibe, right? Like, who am I to tell you whether you some people do that quite well, they usually be the people we talked about before. Um but generous people who acknowledge their own fallibility in this are are gonna be the ones that might find the rebuking bit challenging. Yes. However, it doesn't full stop it there either. No, it then leans into encourage. Yes, like the final part of that is we are all in this together. Yeah we are all gonna do things that aren't gonna meet, you know, God's standard. That doesn't cut us out of the grace picture. All it does is remind us of the ongoing need for that same grace, that we then get to you know, pat on the back and pick each other up and be a part of the same journey that is ultimately about God's world, you know, God's kingdom coming into fullness in the world that we experience.
SPEAKER_01So if we were to try and sum up this passage as a hopeful way forward for a Christian, I wonder what would you say as work with this passage as a hopeful way forward for you to be a Christian today?
SPEAKER_00Well, I I can tell you straight away, if it was my mother writing it, the subtext would be you haven't written in ages, we don't hear from you anymore. Timothy, what's going on? Um that's that's not the takeaway. I I think the reality, the encouragement that Paul's offering Timothy is the same encouragement that we could say, Paul, dare we say, even Jesus, God, you know, God's self, is saying to us to be engaged in it, to be a part of it together. Remember our heritage, remember the stories that came before, the reality of what was, see what is happening now and always look towards the glorious hope of God's return, because that that's the promise, that engagement of us together. So those things all draw us in. Remember scripture to then go and be a part of, sharing, you know, faith as the reminder that we come to grace together.
SPEAKER_01That's right. For me, I think I'm very similar page because this passage is saying, remember your heritage, hold on to what you've been taught, and embrace that and remember that the scriptures that we have, and although this is written about the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible, we can also say, Remember, look at all of that scripture. It is there to teach us, it is there to inspire us, it is there to correct us if we're going down the wrong path, it is there to call us on in faith. And so really we've got to engage with these scriptures so that we can be at our best as Christians.
SPEAKER_00The the study of any discipline is like in itself is amazing, right? Like when we learn math at school, we learn, you know, our times tables, one plus one equals two. We learn all of those basics because that foundational stuff helps us when, heaven for fen, you get to trigonometry or you know, matrices and vectors and all of the other ugly stuff that some people apparently use in their day-to-day lives. I've not met them. I doubt it's a thing.
SPEAKER_01But they're an engineer, normally.
SPEAKER_00We get told that that's a thing. But that's but that's why we learn those basics. The problem with that, however, is that when you go into those the weeds of maths, like pure maths tells you that you can actually prove that one equals zero. And that breaks my brain every time. I can tell you're doing education as a degree at the moment. It just it hurts so bad. How can one equal zero? One equals one, Richard. Anyway, it is possible through a whole bunch of weirdness. In the same way, though, theology, while we absolutely need the, you know, gentle Jesus, meek and mild, one plus one equals two, foundational stuff and remember Genesis and remember all of the stories of the prophets, remember that stuff. We also need to know this is going to help us grow our faith so that we might not get to the trigonometry of theology, but we are going to be progressing in how we develop it and express it and engage in it individually as much as with each other and with God. And that's what Paul is kind of hinting at for us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We it's it's there's never a lesson that we will not need. We were always going to learn stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So we have to remember those first principles things, but not stay in first principles.
SPEAKER_01Yes, the foundations are there to hold us strong and steady and stable, but then we can build a structure on top of those foundations.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, straight away. If we if we dwell only in the first five books of the Old Testament, Jesus hasn't come.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And we live in the incredible understanding that God has come to be a part with us in the form of Jesus, transformed everything, and opened a door for all of us to be able to engage in salvation and the grace of God fully lived in our lives. Yes. Sick. So let's lean on that. And we've walked through the door, you know, kind of metaphorically speaking, and go and do this stuff that Paul's drawing us into. That he's encouraging Timothy to lean into.
SPEAKER_01Yes. He's saying don't just sit with the stuff that you've learned, but now there is more.
SPEAKER_00Dare I say an application of your faith that stretches beyond just I've learnt some good things now, well done, close the book and go about your day.
SPEAKER_01Yes, but sometimes I've heard it called a Sunday school faith in the past. And sometimes we just we get trapped as an eight or a ten-year-old learning the scripture stories and think that that's the end where we've got to actually and that that is a perfectly valid faith in its own on its own. But Jesus for an eight or ten-year-old it is. But even for an adult if they don't go anywhere, but but Jesus wants us to grow deeper.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yes. Look, I and I struggle with that because I I I think that anybody, even if you just spend 12 months, like as because as an adult, as an eight or a 10-year-old, when we get even younger, slightly older, when we get fed the simplified the Sunday school stories of the Bible, it is right that we should learn them. It helps us develop these foundational moments in the world. 100%. However, if that's the as far as your developmental learning of your relationship with Jesus goes, and you're a fully realized human adult, mate, we've got to talk. Like I want to encourage you to take the next step.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's the baby food. Like, you know, do we want to do you want to get stuck at the pureed vegetables for all of your life? It's got its place, but no. Do you want to actually wrestle a decent steak? Can we? Or if you're a vegetarian, some some tofu mix. Cheese or mushroom or something. Yeah, yeah. You know, there's nice vegetarian options out there.
SPEAKER_00There's not, but I appreciate you trying to be interested in it.
SPEAKER_01I'm trying my best to sort of include them. No. Yeah, yeah. So, but you know, there is more to it than just the basics. Like we go beyond the basic things into so much more, and it gives us so much more and it deepens our relationship with God.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And it's hard and it's meant to be hard. Like it's meant to be difficult. Because if it was easy, dare I say I'm becoming my parents, everyone would do it. Like we have to wrestle with this stuff. And some of that wrestling is going to be very personal because whatever my challenges might be aren't going to be yours and aren't going to be anybody else's, or they might overlap in that weird Venn diagram with somebody else. At the same time, we as the Terragal United community have a collective struggle about how do we best serve our community? Yeah. What does it look like for us to be salt and light in this, frankly, pretty incredibly affluent place that thinks that they don't need for much?
SPEAKER_01Yes. How do we share Jesus in this place?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And look, we do heaps of amazing things. There is lots of opportunity for people that are going, oh, I don't know where to start, mate. I mean, if nothing else, come along and be a part of repair cafe. There's, you know, the there's all sorts of like localized things, groups that you can be a part of that will give you the chance to just be a part of it. And you might then also be able to talk about your faith as just engaging in it, right? Heaps of those things. That stuff transforms the world. If we just sit on our thumbs and go, yeah, but Samson and Delilah was really great, and how good is God? Cool. We've got to step, let's take Samson and Delilah into the 21st century and go, how is that helping us? What is that informing about how we grow in our faith?
SPEAKER_01Oh, there's so many questions for me about why you chose Samson and Delilah. But but you know, there's absolutely we've got to take those stories and then grow into the world we are. Can I say, um I probably need to get you onto this more often because I can tell that there's I've just like pulled a cork out of a out of a bottle and you've you've gone excited.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I mean, and look, I appreciate your encouragement, Richard. Nobody wants to hear this. We're recording it out of really just a rampant need to meet a metric that is the weekly podcast for Toggle United Church.
SPEAKER_01Your passion has been fantastic, Mr. Bulk. Is there anything else you wanted to say before we wrap up today?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I uh I I am a huge fan of the way um Paul addresses everybody like at the best of times, right? Whether he's he's talking to a person or a faith community or church that he's been a part of or knows, because there's always grace. There is always some really strict instruction about come on, you guys, this is what this is. And I love I love that. We see the same here with Timothy. And I know that in the back part of what we're gonna talk, what you're gonna preach about this coming Sunday, that we get another great passage that, dare I say, thankfully, isn't actually taken out of context. Because it's Paul reflecting on the stage of life that he's at, yes, not giving up, just going, you know what? I've hit that point where the veranda is probably bigger than the six packets built on the front of. Um and I'm confident that the way I have served God honors God. Yes. And and that should not be dismissed lightly. Look, he yeah.
SPEAKER_01Look, depending, if we think that this is Paul writing, then this is probably one of his last letters that he writes. Yeah, right. Like, you know, there might be others, some copy-paste, ad stuff, sure. But you know, this could be some of the last words that he's writing, and he I I like the way that he is pouring his heart into this letter to share with one of his friends.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there is nothing like Wayne Bennett uh talks about, uh particularly talked about at the time he was interviewed, he was coaching the Broncos. The Broncos were having a bit of a rough trot. Um and and I remember the the quote that's always stuck with him, uh, that stuck with me that he said was like, you don't leave it in the sheds.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00When you run out on the field, it's all got to go out there with you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00There's no point rousing the boys up, you know, at half time and them taking their boots off and leaving them in there and running out on the field. Like they've got everything has to go out here. And what we see, or you know, foreshadowing what we're gonna you're gonna talk about on Sunday, what we get from Paul is his acknowledgement that mate, I left nothing in the sheds.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I have taken this all and I have poured my entire life into this good news of Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_00I hate running. This body is built for comfort and not speed, and yet I I lean and and enjoy so heavily this notion of when he says that I have run the race. Yeah. Because, mate, I've run a race once and I know how great it was to finish it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, look, he he yes, he definitely he gives everything in this, yeah. Um, Mr. Mulk, thank you so much for joining us. My pleasure. Um, now notices there's a couple of things, just to note that there we're starting to talk about um Holiday Kids Club coming in the next or holidays. Yeah, we're also talking about um it's about a month and a half away, but there is going to be the Uniting Aged Care Forum here, which just helps people understand processes with aged care. If you've got a parent or a family member or even yourself looking at aged care over the next little while, it might help.
SPEAKER_00Oh, no, Will, 100%. As someone who's cared for some older people in my life that have had to go into care and those sorts of things, it's a minefield. Yes. And it feels sometimes like you're just having to learn it all by yourself to have a forum like this where you can ask people who know. Very valuable.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, very, very valuable. So, yeah. So there's those things coming. Um, I think that's the key notices that I need to give at this point in time. Happy Father's Day to all the dads. Happy Father's Day for this coming week. Yeah, and of course, if you have time on a Tuesday morning, um, you could come to the church and help with a couple of people that are doing the lawn mowing around the place. They're looking for assistance.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's sprummer, so we've hit that point where it's really hot in spring and I know the grass is starting to grow.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it is. I know. I can I say I needed it though. My farm was looking very, very short on the grass side.
SPEAKER_00I was enjoying the weeds at our place being kept down a bit, but we have to start mowing more regularly now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, my cows were starting to look hungry and I needed to feed them. Bring them around my place. I can eat the weeds. Anyway, um, thank you, Mr. Mog, and thank you everyone for listening. And we'll talk to you again next week with TSC Talks.