GangboX Episode 14 w/ Jason Mills

Jason Mills is a lawyer for the GGRM Law Group.  He is here to talk about the proper way to file a worksite injury and how to make sure you get the workman's comp that is due to you.  All things Union all things Construction!

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to the Gang Box Podcast. We are back, episode 14, All Things Union, All Things Construction, All Things Las Vegas, and we have a guest.

unknown 0:10

Hello.

SPEAKER_03 0:11

Guest.

unknown 0:11

Hi.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Please introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

Tell us who you are, where you're from, why you're here.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Listen, I was uh my name's Jason Mills. I'm a workers' compensation attorney here. I was born and raised here. Um my folks worked in casinos. Uh they were dealers. And I actually grew up working uh up on uh Charleston Avenue at uh the plant world nursery, 14 years old, loading and unloading trucks, manure. I was good. Fuck yeah. That's good for a kid, right?

SPEAKER_02 0:43

It's a shitty job, but somebody's gotta do it.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

It was, but you know, it it made me learn a couple of things. Work your ass off, and you get, you know, someone takes care of you, you get paid well. And uh I learned the hard way that way. I had uh uncles uh in the Teamsters, aunt in culinary, so family I had uh union folks.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

So it's safe to say you are the union's uh comp attorney.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Yeah, I I mean I take care of absolutely my firm, GGRM law firm. We've been around 56 years. I've been practicing 20 Jesus, 26 years. Really? Yeah. It uh it stacks up. But we take care of uh all the unions down here in the south and in the north. We've got offices up there as well, but we discounted rates for them. Work uh go up to uh Carson City during the sessions, work a lot with you, Vince, and your team, uh fighting the good fights while we're up there, making sure that uh working men and women in the state are taken care of.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Do you want to go?

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Yeah, so um, I mean, we I don't know, the last episode or maybe it was the episode before, we actually touched on uh you know members getting hurt, and you know, a lot of times we don't report it, something happens on the job site, uh we brush it under the rug, we keep going. Uh, I know I've personally dealt with quite a few members who later, you know, weeks later, of like, man, I'm I'm hurt. What am I supposed to do? And you know, as a business agent, we enforce our collective bargaining agreements. And so once there's like workers' comp issues start that start coming up, a lot of times our hands are tied with what we can do, and we just have to refer them to to a lawyer. Like you need to you need to see a lawyer, right? Because we're not lawyers uh as much as we like to pretend we are ones on TV. Uh we're not. Uh, and so once once it goes past the collective bargaining agreement, my my hands are kind of tied. So, like what what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see workers make when they are injured, possibly injured, or or when something happens on the job that negatively affects uh their lives?

SPEAKER_00 2:44

You said it, Daniel. I mean, the biggest thing is notice. So we have a two-step system here in Nevada. You have to give notice and then file a claim. So the most important thing that we can tell your members is if they get injured on the job, you have to give written notice, written notice within seven days of the incident, of the accident. The good thing is, is a lot of guys I think maybe wrongfully think that if they give notice, that's a claim. It's not. It's just them like, hey boss, blew out my left knee today. Uh, I'm not gonna go see a doctor. Uh I just letting you know that this happened. Came off the scaffolding, hurt my left knee, but I'm gonna take Advil, Icy Hot, it'll probably go away. If he gives that form or she gives that form, then they've got 90 days to file a claim. So what often beats these guys or beats the claims is they didn't give that initial notice. You don't give that initial notice, they come to you two, three, four, five, six weeks later, two months later, and they're like, hey man, that the knee just doesn't get did you give written notice? No.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Uh-oh. Would a text message qualify as a written notice? Like texting the boss exactly which is hey, blew up my knee, I'm just gonna ice it today and tomorrow. Is that considered written notice?

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Well Yes. Uh-huh. Here there's a case that basically says from the Supreme Court says, you know what? If an employer is on actual notice of the injury, that something actually happened and they're on notice of it, the requirement to give the written notice to the employer is removed. Now, I know what's going to happen. The guys are going to hear this and hear that they don't have to file a written notice. But yeah, that that's that's bad because a lot of times if you just if you text the wrong person who's not a supervisor, who's not a boss, you know, you better save it. But the nice thing is with text, at least we have proof nowadays. Yeah. Um if they don't have the form, but I can send you guys links, uh, you can put it in the podcast or whatever, to the right to the state website where the forms are at. They're real easy to fill out.

SPEAKER_03 4:55

Well, that's the thing. I mean, if you're if you know, our members um forms aren't a thing. Right. And so I think that's like a text message. Because like if I'm on the job and I twist my ankle, I feel like when I go to my boss and go, hey, I twisted my ankle, I'm gonna take Advil, I'm gonna ice it, I should be good, but I'm letting you know. Like, that should be enough. But if that foreman doesn't do anything with that information, you're kind of screwed. So now you know our members got to go online and find a form and fill it out. That's it seems easy to us, but it's it's not. It's like a it's a it's a pain in the ass to get them to do that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Before you jump into the response, if if the member does that, and I know there's gonna be a lot of what-ifs here, but like so. If that's that's this, that's the case, but they come to us, are we allowed to help them fill out the form?

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Absolutely. Yeah, um, they can have their steward help them out, uh a lawyer help them out, their buddy help them out, as long as they just fill out the form, correct help. Who do they submit the form to? Their supervisor. The the the HR department, uh the the the foreman, whoever's whoever's in charge. I like to tell them send it by email so that they have proof, like it came out of their Gmail account, and they're like, no, no, no, I sent the form on this date. Yeah. What's the E and email stand for? The E and email? Electronic. Evidence. Evidence. I like that. Yeah. Forever. Like that with an F. E.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

So let's say they do that, right? Uh what if the employer then they're like, hey, you're a liability, we gotta cut you loose. Sorry, because you've filled this out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Yeah, that's against the law. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:33

That's where we can come in. Yeah, that's right. That that's where we we have a contract.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

The Walmart attorneys.

SPEAKER_03 6:39

Yeah, yeah. Excuse me. Uh, did you just let my client go? Yeah. I I think that's what Timu. Attorneys on Timu.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

I think that's the great thing about uh collective bargaining, what you guys do, right? I mean, you guys have additional powers, strengths through your collective bargaining agreement uh that protect your uh that protect your members. It's great.

SPEAKER_03 6:59

Yeah, I mean, and that's the that's always the concern, right? I mean they they do not, you know, it it and like we've talked about this on on the podcast before, like the leverage the the members have, right? When there's tons of work and they can go anywhere, they're probably gonna be much more likely to be like, yep, twisted my ankle. Uh here, make sure I'm covered. When there is no work, if you're working for a company and there's like no work and this is the only job, you're gonna be a lot more likely to be like, Man, I'm not gonna say anything about my ankle. It's gonna be fine. I'm not gonna jeopardize my job just because my ankle's gonna hurt for a couple days, right? And they have to weigh those things out uh in their minds.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Well, let me let me give you a story of of a scenario where just like that bit a guy pretty bad. Yeah. Um, it was uh it was a union member, not trades. It was a it was a firefighter. He was captain, uh, great dude. Um he had was working on the the the engine, whatever with the guys they were doing whatever they do to those things, and uh he jumped off the back of the ladder and injured and landed wrong, twisted his knee and his low back. I mean, it was obvious to his guys that he didn't. Now he was he was the captain, so he was the guy in charge of the house, right? Um and he landed, twisted it up, and the guys were like, hey Cap, you all right? He's like, ah, you know, I'm good. He just went in and he kind of like after I talked to him, he was like, Nah, I just try to like walk it off. So he did exactly what you said your member's gonna do. You know, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna file forms, I'm not gonna turn paperwork in. And he was like, I'm not the suing type. I'm not gonna do that. You know, I'm just a working dude, I'm working hard doing my thing. Three weeks later, he's like, This f knee and this low back isn't going away. So he filed his C4, the the claim, right, to say that, hey, I got hurt. They denied the claim, said, You didn't give notice the C1, the initial form. Remember, I said it's a two-step?

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Well, we get into court in front of the judge and he's testifying. And he basically, and the judge asked him, he's like, you know, why didn't you fill out the form? And he was like, Well, I didn't want to cause any problems. I wasn't trying to litigate against anybody. He goes, Well, you're captain. Do you tell your guys when they get hurt to fill out the form? He's like, Yeah, of course. He's like, Well, the only person you hurt was you, because now that claim is on your back because I have to deny it because you knew, and you still didn't file the paperwork. Now, if here here's the thing about the and he he lost. We lost. That claim went down in flames, and this was a legit injury. The other side was even saying, We're not we're not saying you didn't get hurt, you didn't even notice. I mean, he he just got hosed. Yeah, it's no pun intended with the hose firefighters, right? Yeah, exactly. None. Well, maybe, maybe a little bit. But but he he was a good dude, man, and um there was no dispute. It wasn't like, ah, we don't believe you. I mean, because he had the like the tear in the knee and all that kind of stuff. I mean, he was there. It was just because he didn't give that notice. And that's why it's so important. Even when, even when jobs are going uh they're a little thinner, just given notice. Like you said, the text, the boss, hey, I hurt my ankle. I don't think I'm gonna go out for for for uh for meds right now. I'm just gonna take icy hot. I'm good, I'll be on the shift tomorrow. Don't don't worry about it, boss. At least you've got that. Because what happens if three weeks later, a month later, two months later, I think now he can't work. Now what's he gonna do?

SPEAKER_03 10:27

And so who's when when you say they denied it, is it the employer that's denying it? Is it the insurance company that's denying it? Who is they that is denying the claim?

SPEAKER_00 10:36

That's uh that's a great question. So in Nevada we have a private system, used to be state-run for 80, 90 years, then it became private in the in the 90s, fully privatized by the late 90s, early 2000s. So now you have private insurance companies or self-insured employers, or they hire out third-party uh administrators called TPAs. So it's typically an insurer, a TPA, or sometimes in-house self-insured employees have their own risk management department. We don't see that a lot in the trades, so it's usually uh it's usually a group or a third-party administrator or a collective uh fund that the that everybody's uh in on together and they have an administrator handling it. So that's the they, that's the other party.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

And now that it's private, is it uh it does d is the process still seem fair and the same? Or does it seem more slope because it's insurance companies or shit?

SPEAKER_00 11:36

It is much worse. So for the first 80 years in this state and all over the country, we had what was called uh remedial or liberal construction, small L, not Republican Democrat thing, but but uh liberal construction, meaning if if you got that there was a question on whether something went down, or if there was a question on the medical evidence, or if there's a question on the legal uh uh issue, the courts would go, uh, let's go in favor of the the injured worker because the system's remedial. It's supposed to like take care of the injured worker. Well, when it became privatized in the early 1990s, the private companies, when they came in and said, Well, you know, yeah, we're gonna take all this risk. We want neutral construction. And we already know what neutral construction is gonna mean. We've got to prove everything. The whole point to the workers' compensation system was not to be set up that way. Now we're proving it up like a regular lawsuit. It's it's it's wrong, it's crazy, but that's the system we're in the last 30 some years.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

So these are insurance essentially insurance companies that the employers are paying a premium for. Yes. And so the employer, even if the employer's like, man, I know the guy got hurt, like in your example, they have these insurance companies are like, hey, your premiums are gonna go up, you can't take this claim, we've got to fight. It's kind of like with your car insurance, right? I mean when the claim hits, then what their premiums go up, and so that's what's what's driving their denials.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

I think it's I think it's worse than that because the system is what they call a tripartite system. So there's a three-party system. So there's employer, worker, insurer. They have their own interests. So even if the employer and the injured worker are on the same page, the insurer could be like, we have our rights. Right. So and they exert they exert theirs, right? Um, so that's something you've got to be on the lookout for.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

Well, and I it it's kind of all making sense, like connecting all the dots here with what you're saying, because I remember when I first started construction, we didn't stretch and flex. There wasn't, you know, checking your fucking harnesses and all this shit that we just seen the other day. It was literally just show up and go to work, and then after I guess insurance claims, I don't they claim they went up. I I don't fucking see it, how or or anything. But now it's like, well, did you stretch and flex? Did you do your THA? Did you do your day JHA in the morning? And if people get hurt, you have to prove that you did all these fucking things because if not, you got fucked.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

You know, that we're seeing more and more of that. This is a the workers' compensation system is a no fault-based system. So, meaning we don't have to find somebody's at fault in order to get recovery. The problem is I'm starting to see a slight trend where the employers and the insurers are trying to lump fault onto the employee. Don't say the words fault, say some other things, and then try to essentially blame them and then deny the coverage. We're seeing more and more of that. They're getting more creative. That's wrong. They're not supposed to be doing that.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Well, also with that, I think I don't know if it was like this with you, with you guys, but I remember with the iron workers and the company, they'd be like, You're the competent person. Like you're the person who's trained, so fault falls on you, even if it's the employee that gets hurt. Like they just were trying to deny all. So, uh, quick little story. I know you're the guest, but uh so part of the reason, and I I told this story to Daniel once of what motivated me to run into union leadership uh was one of my key guys got hurt on a job. Uh, we were setting some columns off 15 and North Fifth, right off right off the fucking freeway. We're building that bridge there. And um there were some guide wires, you know, to make sure that the column doesn't fall into the because we were just setting it just rebar, it's a rebar cage. So we we get these things called deadmins, right? And then you put guide wires to to them to make sure that it doesn't collapse or whatever. Yeah. And so it's all engineered and all this and that, right? You get your pick plan and your picking points and all that. So I had a guy that was going up there, and I we were like, hey, we should probably add one more guide wire, right? So he put this bull of cable, it was like, I don't remember, half-inch cable or something. And so he was carrying it up, climbing the rebar cage. He gets to the top, you know, he's working, and all of a sudden he starts screaming, like fucking screaming, and I was like, What the fuck? Are you all right? And I could see he like throws his hard hat down, he climbs down the column, like climbs out of the hole, and he's like next to me, and I'm like, fucking, like, I have my armor on him, like, you alright? And he's screaming, my head, my head. And he like takes off his tools and his harness and he's screaming, bro. And I'm like, Jesus fucking Christ. So I call my employer and I'm like, hey bro, uh uh, he needs help. Uh and they were like, Whatever you do, don't call the ambulance. Just put him in your truck and take him to quick care.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

So I was like, fuck. And I'm I'm the guy in charge of the job, right? I wasn't the steward or anything. And so I was like, Yeah, I take him to fucking quick care. He's screaming, bro. I get his phone, I'm trying to call his wife, I'm trying to like do damage control. We go to this fucking little quick care place, like a minute clinic, put him in there, I call the boss when I get there, and he was like, make sure they don't prescribe him anything over fucking 50 milligrams or whatever, because then it becomes a recordable. And I was like, I can't tell the fucking doctor, don't do that. Like, what, like, and he goes, bro, you need to fucking tell him. I said, Hey, I ain't fucking doing it. And I hung up on him. Right, dude, him and the safety manager come down to the fucking minute clinic where we are. They're trying to tell the doctor, like, no, no, we got medicine, we got, you know, don't worry about it. Like, we're gonna take care of him. And they were like, he's in the fucking ambulance going to a hospital. Like, he is beyond our fucking care. And they were like, no, no, we got trucks, we could take them. Like, dude, they were keep in mind, big fucking union company. This ain't some small mom and pop shop that's about to go fucking broke. Yeah, the sad thing is that a small mom and pop shop we found in doing our work is that they take care of the employees better than these big fucking corporations. The big corporations, whether they're signatory or not, are oftentimes, man, the ones who want to just fuck the member as hard as they can.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

It's it's actuarial tables, it's number crunching, right? That's all it is. That's what's happening in those scenarios. Listen, if one of the guys on the job is screaming like that, and that was probably your your ground zero. 911. Yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't matter what anyone's saying. You know, we're not, I'm not a doctor, you're not a doctor. We're definitely not emergency room doctors, you know. But that just goes to show you how they're scared that they have the workers, union or non-union. That's right. I mean, and and you know, everyone knows you, Vince. You're you're like a quiet wallflower. So they were pressuring you and you were feeling it. So imagine you know, a guy that's just a line guy who's like, getting that kind of pressure. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

Yeah, yeah. And that's they they they try to put that fear in you. So you have these meetings, these foreman meetings, you do all these things, and they're like, here's all the numbers, here's all the money we lost due to insurance claims, here's all the recordables. You don't understand. If you want to work, you won't do any recordables because that that reflects on the job when we're putting in a bid, they try to scare you, right, into not wanting to put in any fucking claims or do anything because it's like, well, you're gonna fuck it up for the whole company and and the chances of us winning this big job next time.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Right. So they shame you. Yeah, exactly. So you're the guy, uh you're you're the the the the gomer pile making everybody do sit-ups, right?

SPEAKER_03 18:57

Well, and and I remember uh being out in the field and uh cutting my finger real bad. And it was probably less than a year since I had gotten completely sober. And so when I cut myself on the job, I'm like, and it is bad. I was like, oh, I gotta go to the doctor. I I don't have to call my employer and say, hey, I was never at work today. I'll see you tomorrow, right? That's normally what we do when we're on drugs because we know they're gonna drug test us. Right. But this time, since I had sobered up, I was like, sweet, I don't have to do that. I called, I said, Hey, uh, I'm going to the hospital. I need to get some stitches, my finger's hanging off, you know. Uh and I I went to the hospital and they're like, uh, did this happen at work? And I remember I was so proud. I was like, yes, it did. You know what I mean? I was like, affirmative. Yep. Yes, it did. Where would you like me to pee? I'm gonna use my own pee. Would you like some hair? Yeah, whatever you want. And so uh, you know, I went and they they did all the stuff and they sewed me up and you know, they put a little, let me go back to work like the next day, like just keep it clean, you know. And uh I went to work uh the next day, and my boss was like, like when I came in, he looked so disappointed. I go, what's going on? He's like, you know, we haven't had a workers' comp claim against us in I don't know, five years, and looked at me like I was such a piece of shit. And I told him, I said, Well, I looked around, I said, It's not my fault you don't hire anyone that can pass a drug test. Because that is true. That that was the reason, right? The guys on the job, none of them could pass a drug test. So, yeah, when no one on your crew can pass a drug test, uh, you're not gonna have any workers' comp claims against you. Uh, but they shamed me, you know.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

It's it's what happens. I mean, the reality is you guys do dangerous work. Human bodies get hurt. It's part of the business, it's in the business model. Never never forget that, right? The profit for the company uh is baked in with these claims. We we a hundred years ago when we when we did workers' compensation, it's so that the employee doesn't have to sue the employer, go to court in front of a in front of a jury trial and like yelling and screaming at each other. It was just supposed to be file the claim, pay the benefits, everybody's cool. But they've turned it around back to now where we have to go into court all the time for everything, even when a guy's you know damn near cut his finger off, and then they grind you over that. I had I had one where the the gal, and this this is to the point your yours was obviously pretty bad, right? Yeah, you you cut that finger. I mean, like you said, it was hanging off. It wasn't like oh I just nicked it. You know, it was hanging off. It was jacked up. Yeah. Well, I had one where this this gal was like just barely nicked her finger. Barely. Barely. And uh what do you what are you gonna do? You can put a C1 in before you barely nicked your finger. The problem is, next day that hand was all swollen up, right? Because she was starting to get infected, hand was all like purple and big. Like thankfully, she was still within the time frame to to file it.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

Yeah, seven days, you said, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Yeah, seven days. But what if you just kind of drag it on a little too long and then you don't? Next thing you know, what happens if that finger gets amputated? That hand gets amputated because of an infection. Infections happen, you know? So I think it's probably. Wise to at the very least just when something happens, just tell the boss something goes down. Use your text if you're on the line, right? You're out in the field, but I'm not gonna go to the doctor right now. I think I think I'm cool, but this happened. Then you then we know, then we've got some proof. And then if you're a week, two weeks, three weeks, a month, two months later, and it's still there, then you then we can get a C4 file. Maybe we're not gonna file a claim. But if you protected yourself by giving that notice, yeah. And a lot of a lot of times though, two of the possibility like, oh, well, you gave me notice, now you got to go to the doctor. No, man, I don't want to go to the doctor. I'm just letting you know I got hurt. I'm I think I'm gonna be okay with Advil and some speed tape. You know what I mean? I'll be good. Um, it's up to you whether you want to go to the doctor, and they can't like make you be like, no, man, I'm good. I'll keep working.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

And I think that the you we we've found this out too is that the more we normalize it, yes, the less scary it becomes. That's right. Like, fuck you. Like, if everybody on the crew said, Oh, you bitch, you fucking you put in a claim, like, no, no, shut the fuck up, man. Right. Like it we gotta talk about it more, just like everything else, and normalize it that it's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

It's like a generation ago, like, you know, mental trauma was like, you know, oh man, there's something wrong with this dude. You know what I mean? Nowadays, you know, you fall off a scaffold and you're hanging on your you're hanging on by your barely hanging on over the edge of the bridge and there's cars going by, that might mentally do something to you, right? 100%. But you know, a generation ago, it's like, oh, don't bring up PTSD. You know, at least now it's getting people recognized, people get jammed up for that stuff. Same thing with injuries. It talk about it. Now, if a guy's hurt, gal's hurt, they need to be protected, and that's what the laws do. Yeah. And if the crews and the guys are busting each other's balls, the owner's enemy. Don't do that. Just be like, hey man, you good? At least report that thing. At least fire a text off to the bus. And you know, you know, I'll I'll I'll make sure you're okay today. I'll carry a little extra load.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Is it our it I feel like it's our job, yes, to in to inform the members to tell them to do that. Like we like you're you you're fine. You're gonna be fine. Are we back? We're back. We're back, dude. Vince had to poop. Yeah, sorry. You are right, just playing McDonald's.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Uh so uh did you see when he came back in? He was I don't even think his feet were on the ground. He was so gazelle. Like a gazelle. He ran in here. He looked, he looked like it was like uh it was like uh on a show. He just glided across the floor. It was beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 24:30

All right, so um a couple things. One, uh, you know, we were talking, um, I think it's important to kind of highlight I'm I'm a trustee of my health and welfare fund. Yeah. And you know, we have temporary disability, and so if a worker gets hurt outside of work, right, they are escaping. Like basketball. Yeah, whatever. And they get hurt. Um obviously they don't get workers' comp. Uh, and so our health and welfare will pay them a certain amount per week. They'll freeze their health and welfare benefits so that they keep their insurance while they're being treated for whatever their injury is. Uh and I've had workers before ask me, well, if I get hurt on the job um and I can't pass a drug test or I don't want to cause any problems, can I just use the temporary disability? And that's really just a transfer of liability, and it's really defrauding our health and welfare fund. And so um, touch a little bit on what happens when a worker chooses not to go the worker's comp route when that is really who is responsible for for paying those claims.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

That's that's the worst of all worlds, right? So the system is designed to be in place where the business that is advancing the labor for this bears the cost for when human beings get hurt, right? You guys do dangerous work. I mean it's it's you're not shuffling papers around on a desk. You're doing physical work in reality that is risky. It's known that human beings are gonna get hurt doing this work. It doesn't have to be someone's fault, or maybe someone accidentally did do something, maybe someone did do something stupid. So what? It's risk. The business model is built to have those costs built in. When guys don't bring those claims against the insurance or against the business part of it, and they lump it back onto your health and trust fund, they're stealing and robbing from themselves and fraudulently.

SPEAKER_03 26:27

Our union insurance funds, right? Are are carrying the burden that should be on the employer's workers' comp insurance, not us?

SPEAKER_00 26:36

That's right. And remember, I think a lot of times maybe the guy's like, oh well, our fund. Yeah, it's your money. Some of the money coming out of you of the contract, of the you guys are paying, it's yours collectively. It's not someone else's, it's yours. Why would you steal and harm yourself and your own brothers and sisters when the business model was set up to protect you from when you're hurt on the job? It's it's crazy. It's it's it's one of the worst things I think that a member can do. I think it's it's probably up there top three worst things that a member can do. Harm yourself and your brothers and sisters for what? The system's designed to protect you already. And instead of protecting yourself, you're harming yourself. Makes no sense.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

I think it's more like a cultural thing, like I said, like we're wired to think that, right? Like it's so stupid.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Vince, uh it that's what I was telling Daniel during the break. I think the last 30, 40 years, people have been indoctrinated to think um, you know, I'm the problem if an accident happened. What why do you think we call it an accident? Yes. Accident. Accident. Even even if you did do something, it was like, damn, I should have had the harness on, I wasn't clipped in right. Human beings mess up. So what? It's still advancing the business. You guys weren't you weren't shooting hoops on a Saturday. I mean, you're you're advancing business commerce, you're building in this community. There's profit being generated from that. And part of that profit pays for workers that get hurt. And to put it in our heads or in the workers' heads, the union members' heads, that you're the problem when you cut your finger off, when you blew out your back, that's that's not right. And to lump it on each other and each other's uh brothers and sisters, the the funds, you guys have to reverse that thinking, man. It they've been drowned in their brains or drilled into their brains that that don't file a claim, you're the problem, lump it on the trust fund. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

SPEAKER_03 28:53

Yeah. And so other than, I mean, obviously, you know, our members all know uh that the one thing that can get your claim denied uh is testing positive, right, for substances. Is it you made a you just made a comment like, oh, I didn't clip in or I made a mistake. Is there any other things that that a member can do on the job, mistakes they can make that will get their claim denied? Like if they forget to tie off, is that, oh, it's your fault, no more workers comp, or what other things can happen on the job?

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Uh uh again, I was saying earlier that we're starting to I'm starting to see the insurance companies and their defense counsel start to try to use the ideas of fault to deny claims without saying those words. Okay. Um, but it's our system is with or without human fault, it's compensable. So not clipping off isn't a basis to deny a claim. Only thing that's uh that would cut it off is intentionality like I'm gonna unclip this and I'm gonna fall because I don't want to work anymore. You can't you can't do that, yeah. An intentional act.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

There's some guys out there like that too. There's some crazy fucks out there that'll do some stuff.

SPEAKER_03 30:01

That would get hurt on purpose. Yeah. The job's ending.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

The job's about to end, and like if I fall off this ladder, yeah. Yeah, man. That happens. Like, look, and we and we we have to do our best to try to protect those people, but we also like, hey man, you gotta do better. Like, that was stupid. Yeah. Fuck's wrong with you.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

I mean, there's nothing wrong with uh upping safety standards and training and making sure guys are taking care of themselves and the members are taking care of themselves and and being smart. But when things happen, that's what the coverage is there for, with or without human fault. But typically, you're right, um positive uh positive drug tests, but they're they're delineated set of of drugs and substances. Um they have to be tested in a certain way. For example, uh the the most common we're gonna see is is marijuana. Those have to be blood tested. Depends on craft.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

For workers' comp.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

No, no. On what the marijuana depends on the craft what what substance it is that the comp most common is, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Oh yeah. Let's be honest. There might be there might be methamphetamine and others.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

Yeah. Iron workers. Don't. You need to do better.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Very disappointed in you. Oh, those if you can see it on camera, I thought there was gonna be a little brawl. I was gonna back up.

SPEAKER_03 31:13

No, but that's that's a question we get a lot from the members is the marijuana, right? It's legal, it's legal, it's legal, and it's like, I know, but they will deny your workers' comp.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Yes, but at the same time, one of the things that I do um is is make sure that the companies and the insurance companies are following the law. So, for example, I had a case that went up to the Supreme Court. It was a death case. And um the the spouse is entitled to benefits when the person dies on the job. This was a transportation worker. Um, I believe they were Teamsters. I I can't recall, it's been a while. Operating a limousine. He a car passed in front of him, like real close. So there's a video of it, and it looked like he swerved, and because he's driving a limousine, it overcorrected. So he went right, then it went left, crossed the median, then got T-boned, and then he uh the impact caused what's called an aortic aneurysm. It it it it it uh uh dissection. It stripped his aorta off the heart, and he was obviously he was still alive. The medics got there, he was super agitated because obviously you're not getting blood flow, you're you're acting up. They take him to the they take him to the hospital, he dies about 45 minutes after the impact. They do a blood test posthumously on his dead body, and they found amphetamine, they found methamphetamine, they found uh THC. So I get the the um I get that report because the the wife came in and she filed the claim and they were like, no, we're denying it. The defense attorney on the other side literally told me this guy's a walk-in chemistry kit, we're not paying shit. I mean, that that's what he told me. Yeah, and I thought to myself, walk-in chemistry kit isn't what the statutes say. So I methodically worked backwards on this thing and I started to find things out. See, because people assume things when they see these things. This guy was on, was missed work the day before, was taking uh was on a bunch of over-the-counter antihistamines, as well as the stuff called VIX Vaporub Inhaler, and it tests positive for a chemical that's identical to methamphetamine. Not to bore everybody, but there's the chemicals can be left-handed or right-handed, but they test the same. Gotcha. And this guy had that in him. And then I hired this toxicologist because I was like, this woman's gonna lose a lifetime of benefits if I don't get to the bottom of this. So I figured it out, and he was like, Well, the amphetamine in his body is just being broken down from the methamphetamine chemical, but it's not necessarily the illegal version because they didn't, if you look at the report, they didn't test for the legal and illegal version. Looked at it, I took that into court. And and the THC that he had was the inactive THC, so he didn't have any active in him. And uh I took that in. They first denied, I went up to the district court. District court was like, no, no, no, you were you were right, they got to test all the stuff correctly. They didn't test it right. I ended up turning that around, got that lady lifetime benefits for spousal benefits because they were not able to prove it's not my burden to disprove. Yeah, yeah. They didn't prove that that was actually illegal methamphetamine to him. So I'm not telling you this to tell your members like, oh, there's ways around, but they have a job, the insurance company, and the statutes are what they say. So don't just believe everything the insurance company tells you. And we fought that up to the Supreme Court.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

Nice. And you won? Oh, yeah, we won. Hell yeah. Yeah. I love that. Um another quick question. So the the seven-day reporting period. Yeah, we call that the notice. The notice you've got to give notice. Yeah, that that notice. That seems short. It is. How do we extend that?

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Would that be through the legislature? That's right. Uh by the way, I sit on the uh workers' compensation panel for the National Football League, the National Hockey League. So when uh players get hurt in Nevada, they all they'll send them to me. Well, I'm on that panel with attorneys from all over the country. They are stunned. Stunned when they hear our notice and our claim filing requirements. The seven days and the 90 days, shortest in the nation by by impossible distances. I mean, most most states have six months, a year, two years uh uh uh uh uh ways to extend those if they're getting care and treatment. We have the most strict filing requirements in the United States. And it made sense when we were a public run system because everyone knew where to go and what to do. Well, when it the public system was removed, these time frames are still short as if we have like if everyone knows, you go to SIS over on West Charleston, like everyone knew that. Every every employer just knew SIS, SIS, every everybody just knew that that's what you had to do. State industrial insurance system, that's the way it used to be. But the time frames didn't get significantly altered when we went privatized. That's probably a big area that could be addressed um um legislatively. Do I think we're ever going to get a public system back? No, but I think that we can fix those time frames so we're not the outlier in the United States and we're not the worst operator in the United States from the filing deadline.

SPEAKER_03 36:49

Well, because to your point, I mean, if if if we if there's only seven days and you get a little cut on your finger, like you have to, you have to give notice. Right. But if if if you have 60 days or 90 days, maybe you wait and see if that cut's gonna heal up, right? Because you have time if it gets infected, you go, all right, I mean, you know what, I do need to give notice. That's right. But seven days is it requires you to do every little thing because you don't know anything in seven days.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

You have no idea how bad it's gonna get. You're absolutely right. And also you're feeling that pressure. It's like, do I gotta complain about everything? I twisted my knee, and it's like, I've twisted my knee a hundred times, I know what I gotta do. I gotta icy hot it, I gotta put my Advil on it, and she's gonna be fine, right? But with this system, you get punished if you don't, and you get pressured if you do. So it's like a damned if you do, damned if you don't, and it's wrong. Right. And I think you're absolutely right. I think legislatively altering those time frames so that they're more in line with the rest of the nation would be a fair way to handle this.

SPEAKER_03 37:49

And you're familiar with the legislature, right? You go up there and do some stuff.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

Yeah, I've been working uh side by side with Vince and others. I I'm in the Nevada Justice Association, that's the trial lawyer association in the state, and I've been going up there since twenty fifteen and have lobbied on pretty much every major workers' compensation bill for the last six legislative sessions.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

That's what I was about to say. Sounds like NJA just got a new bill to run.

SPEAKER_03 38:11

Yeah. Well, and I mean, obviously there is no such thing as a simple bill up there, right? Any anything you try to do turns into chaos. But like, Vince, that's not true. It's so easy, right? But I mean, if if if there was an argument, right, in a perfect world and we said, hey, we're gonna present a bill and we just want to extend the the notice uh the notice time from seven days to ninety days. Um it obviously with your experience up there, I mean there there's gonna be pushback, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:39

There's gonna be if unions organized labor, trial lawyer association say any words out of their mouth, it's instantly like it it must be coming we we must be trying to like destroy the universe. So here comes the typical Which is which is absurd The usual suspects show up.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

I know you hate it, I told you. It's easy, bro. Like anybody the unions and the trial lawyers could be like, hey, all we need is this funding mechanism and we'll be able to cure children's cancer. Oh, yeah. The same fucking people, whether we were trying to lower prevailing wage or extend the time for fucking the same cast of characters would come out to oppose us.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

You'd think we were asking to take baby Jesus, put him on a spit, and eat him. Yeah. I mean, it's like crazy, right? That's nuts, bro.

SPEAKER_03 39:36

We have to we have to figure out a way to get that that seven days extended.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

The seven and the ninety, again, are the shortest in the United States. When I interact with these other workers' compensation attorneys who are the top compensation attorneys in their state because they're representing the football players, hockey players, baseball players in their state, they look at me like I'm nuts, like I'm making it up that that's the time frame.

SPEAKER_03 39:54

Aaron Powell So let me ask you are you telling me that if a hockey player gets hurt playing here, they file for workers' comp?

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Yes. That's dope. Football, if you if you are an employee in this state and you get hurt on the job, you have a right to bring a workers' compensation claim. Aaron Powell What if you get sick on the job? Aaron Ross Powell, we have occupational disease statutes.

SPEAKER_03 40:16

So so I remember when obviously when COVID first came, like that was a big thing. Like, well, I just got COVID on the job. Can I file a workers' comp claim? Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

The occupational disease statute is a it's in in a separate set of statutes, it's a higher, tougher burden. So you most certainly can try to bring those claims, but you have to prove a whole host of things. And and it's it's often disagreeable. Fall off a ladder, blow out the knee. I mean, people can see it. Get some type of disease process, it's like, well, where did that come from? Right. How did you get it? Is it more likely than not that it happened here? Are you more likely exposed outside of work? There's all kinds of tests. But there are protections in the occupational disease statutes. You you see this from uh from like silicosis and other types of work that you guys might run into. Yeah. Breathing things in.

SPEAKER_02 41:06

Yeah, sure. What's the with the whole hockey, and this is just us talking now, nothing with the construction industry. Is there like a state that has more claims than others because the benefits are better?

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Well, what what ends up happening is is all 50 states have a different system. Yeah. Um it's part of, you know, federalism. All the 50, the states just make up their own workers' compensation rules. So there are states that are more worker friendly, and there are states that are less worker friendly. We uh we know how that is, right? Where do we fall? Um we're we're kind of in the middle. Our time frame is is is the most ridiculous, but we a lot of times when you start hearing that we're like the costs are exploding and we're ballooning, that that's nonsense. The the state of Oregon every two years is mandated to do a study to compare themselves to all the other 50 states and where all the other states are from their workers' compensation rates. We're number 42 cheapest in the nation, Nevada. So that means there's 41 other states that are more expensive than us. So we have a very efficient system here, even when the other side is complaining and whining. I like to say, hey, when we start getting in the top 10, then maybe we should have a conversation about cutting benefits. But until then, we need to expand benefits for these workers.

SPEAKER_03 42:23

Well, and to your point, you're saying that we're the cheapest, cheapest for the employer. Trevor Burrus, Jr. That's what I'm talking about. Which means that we're cheapest to the employer because they're denying claims to the worker. We're not cheapest. That burden is just being transferred to the worker. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

And to your health and trust funds. Right. To the union's trust funds. To to to to the public welfare roles, you know, go to go to the to the community hospital when you get hurt and you you know use those type of funds. So yes, the cost per hundred dollars of workers' compensation coverage, we are 42nd cheapest in the nation. There's only nine, ten states that are cheaper than us.

SPEAKER_03 43:01

Yeah. One trend that I've seen um more recently, I feel, and maybe I'm wrong, is you know, typically when someone got hurt, it'd be out until they were better, and then they'd get released from the doctor and they can come back to work. Now it seems like more and more of my members are almost being forced back to work before they're ready to like count screws, sit on a desk, like, hey, we don't care, you're not actually gonna work, you're gonna sit on this desk, you're quote unquote light duty. We know there's no light duty in the construction industry. I had a member who hurt his ankle, had a cast on it, had crutches. And they said he had to come back to work and he was gonna sit at the gang box and he was gonna, you know, do safety seminars and count screws and do inventory. But in order for him to get to the gang box, he was in his crutches walking across the job site down little ladders and and rough terrain. And I had to step in and go, No, absolutely not. He's got crutches. He can't walk across that terrain to get to the gang box to count your fucking screws. So, like. Like, is that a change that's happened? Like, are these insurance companies forcing these guys back to work earlier and for what reason?

SPEAKER_00 44:06

Well So they don't have to pay temporary total disability benefits. So they just send them back to work. Also, maybe they can get the guy to quit or they can get the they can get the person to go back to work and tell their doctor I don't need any more care. There's all kinds of pressure. It's one of the reasons you know, I have a job for the last 25 years doing this specific work. I've testified in the Nevada legislature many times. And when they asked me once, it's like, well, how can we reduce the amount of claimants seeing lawyers? I go, simple. Could have heard a pin drop in there. They're like, what do you mean, simple? And I literally turned around and I pointed to everyone that was on our opposition. I said, if those people would just do what you people up on the dais order them, then I'll go write wills or do something else. Yeah. Because you you've invented a good system. They just they're just manipulating it against. That's why people walk into my office.

SPEAKER_02 44:59

Who's your biggest opposition? And you don't have to name drop it. Industry. I mean, you can.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

You don't have to they're equal opportunity opposition. I mean, you name it. From from trades to to retail to it doesn't matter. I mean, it's not our trades. No, what I mean is that from trades, meaning people in the trades, their insurance company follow what I'm saying? Not trades per se.

SPEAKER_03 45:26

Yeah, you're your opposition's insurance company.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

Correct. That's what I'm saying. So it doesn't matter if the guy's in trades, if he's in retail, if he's, you know, hockey player, if uh it doesn't matter where we're at. We see opposition all over the place.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

We like to offend politicians on this podcast, so go ahead and tell us the one you hate the most. Yeah, no. Just kidding.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

Yeah, the last guy that tried that almost got canceled.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

No, no.

unknown 45:48

No.

SPEAKER_00 45:49

We have to work with all the people who are friends and enemies. That's what he tries to teach me.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

Yeah. No, I I yeah, I try to tell him that. Like, no, seriously, despite what people think, I could give two fucks, first of all, what anybody thinks, except for Dan. Dan's the only person I care what thinks about me. Uh I I I was trying to explain to him and and and to the other building traits people, like, you look you legitimately, rule number one no permanent friends, no permanent enemies. That's right. But if you want a fucking friend in the legislature, get a fucking dog. Like, don't try to find an elected official to be your friend.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

That that is that is full contact sport up there. Yeah. I mean, and it's elbows out, eye gouges, face mask, it's all legal.

SPEAKER_02 46:30

And then, right? Like, like we we were talking about some uh lobbyists out there, like not talking negative. We were just bringing people, hey, have you talked to so-and-so? Friends during special opposition, now we're talking about running legislation together again. Like you can't, there is if you're gonna have a permanent enemy, you're not gonna go very fucking far in the bet election.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

That's not a thing. Fuck no. It's issue bill based. I mean, it's it's almost like you know, the those old uh those old cartoons where it had like the the the dog and the sheepdog and the wolf, and they they're they're like, hey Jim, hey Joe, they walk up and then they clock in and they knock each other out, and then they clock out and they go to the bar and have a drink together. It's just like that you know what it is. I mean, that that's what happens, right? And you kind of have to do that. You people know what's going on, they're digging in for their folks, and that's what you're supposed to do. And then next bill, I mean, last session, I uh not the special, but the session before. I mean, traditional like adversaries of ours, we got lined up and we're sitting next to each other, and we're like, hey man, we're we're together on this. And it was like, what? We confused everyone. No permanent friends, no permanent enemies.

SPEAKER_02 47:39

Absolutely. It's the same 200 fucking people for 120 days. Yep. Absolutely running fucking what 2,000 fucking pieces of legislation or something crazy, bro.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

And and and all the the little little intricacies that come from all that, you know, yeah, you know how it is. We get worked up up there, we get fired up, yelling and pissing and moaning at each other, and then afterward, you're like, okay, what can we do?

SPEAKER_03 48:03

Yeah. I can't stand Ira Hansen the most. He's not shy about it at all.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

He's gonna be your new uh congressional uh delegate, right? Or yeah, he's uh he's running for Congress.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Yeah, cause uh Amade not running, right?

SPEAKER_03 48:19

That's gonna be a pretty full. What in in in your opinion? Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. No, no. In your opinion, I mean, and maybe the answer is this seven-day thing, but what is the the number one issue if we had to make a change to our system right now and you could wave the magic wand and make that change, what what is it that you think that change needs needs to be?

SPEAKER_00 48:37

Honestly, um the lack of our ability to bring bad faith claims. I I know members are like, what the hell is that? So I I remember running into uh Danny Thompson after I got uh a pretty big bill through a few sessions ago, changing the number of doctors that people could could could see. He he cut through the crowd and walked up to me. He's like, Man, he's like, that's one of the biggest uh pieces of workers' compensation legislation that's ever made it through this building in like decades. And I said, I know. And he goes, I don't know that everyone knows that. I go, they don't. And he goes, but but you know something, Jason. He goes, none of it matters until we get bad faith back, because they're just gonna, no matter what we say and we write, they just don't follow the rules. If you don't follow the rules, who gives a shit what the rule is? And we don't have bad faith was taken away from us decades ago. So let me let me give you an analogy for so for for your members to understand, like bad faith. What is it? Imagine if you were to go to um Bank of America and rob them, right? And you got 10,000 bucks and you walked out and you got caught. And the system went, you know what? You're not gonna go into jail and give 9,000 back. What are you gonna do tomorrow? Rob the bank. Yeah, that's great. Right? I mean, so what bad faith does, it's like jail for companies. Because companies only understand one thing money. Right? Because that's only thing a company does. If you can punish them for bad action with financial punishment, then they don't do bad action. So all insurances in this state are subject to bad faith rules. They have to deal with you in good faith. Health insurance, car insurance, life insurance, not workers' compensation insurance. So it encourages them to behave badly. Great news. Uh, last session um Skip Daly did some great work uh expanding the benefit penalty system, which is the which is supposed to be the workers' compensation ways to deal with bad faith. It's not enough. But uh thank God that the that the Senator Daly got that through because it was some good work. Um so but it's still it's not enough. It's not enough. They continue to act wrong. And it's difficult to punish them for acting wrong. So if we couldn't get bad faith back, then we need to make it more accessible to explain exactly when insurance companies are doing things wrong, like delaying benefits, denying benefits wrongfully, running the clock out on folks. We we should have a uh an easier way to punish them for for handling claims in a bad faith manner.

SPEAKER_03 51:28

How many of these um worker comp insurance companies are there in town? Is there a mono is there like three or four of them? Is there hundreds of them?

SPEAKER_00 51:36

Right. There the answer to your question is both. So there's a a handful of several big actors, yeah, but then there's uh hundreds of uh of others that are involved in Nevada, right? Gotcha. Whether it's self-insured or outside insurance companies, but there's some large third-party administrators, some large insurers that that have the monopoly. Probably four, five, six different companies are kind of have the lion's share in the company.

SPEAKER_03 52:02

And some of those companies are complete pieces of shit, I would assume.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

I would agree with that sentiment. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:10

Right on, man. Well, uh, GGRM is everywhere in the in our world, in the union world, and um, you know, obviously other other than just building trades, man. But give your plug, dude. Where could they find you? And and and I don't know if I know Pete's the technical fucking guy. Uh maybe we could put your Pete Shout out Pete in Greet Apple Studios. Come get your hour for a hundred bucks.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

This place is great. It's fucking I'm really impressed with this place.

SPEAKER_03 52:37

There's a hidden gym.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:39

Um we don't want anyone to know about it though, because it's our spot. Like, did you hear how mad we got when someone else did a podcast in this room? I feel like this should be our room. This is called the gangbox room.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

The gang box room only.

SPEAKER_02 52:48

But uh so no, I mean we tell us. Yeah, yeah, he's added more rooms. What uh what's your name? Work at the name, email, phone number, where they can find you.

SPEAKER_00 52:58

Sure. Jason Mills, I'm at the GGRM law firm. We're the largest and oldest workers' compensation firm. We've been around 56 years. My partners and I are now the second generation partners. We're in North and South. We offer uh discounted rates to all union members. Um we have doctors on staff, our lawyers are on staff, North and South. We no other firm has the number of what's called rating doctors that assess your claims. These are not outside guys, these work for us to make sure that these that the folks are getting taken care of. My email, J M-I-L-L-S at GRM Law Firm.com. Happy to help. Uh we appreciate you guys. Love working close with the uh with your union, with the trades. Uh, you know, love it, man. Appreciate being here. No, we appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 53:50

It was good, man. It was really, really good. Cool. Um I know he said he didn't we all have to work together, but favorite legislator in the building. Yeah, he always he's got a favorite. He's got a favorite. Who's our favorite?

SPEAKER_00 54:02

I I'm I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you right now. The the majority leader. Oh, yeah. She just she helped us on a on a on a big bill during the special session, and uh that was that was pretty awesome. Now, there are a bunch of good ones that uh that we really are friendly with, but I mean she just she just knocked it out of the park during during the special for us on on on a bill that was really important called uh SB7.

SPEAKER_02 54:26

I thought you were gonna say Assemblymember Yorick.

SPEAKER_00 54:28

Well, he's not an assembly member anymore.

SPEAKER_02 54:31

It's like the Marines. Yeah. Once a assembly member, always an assembly member. Yeah, he he he That's his uh partner. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Toby Yorick.

SPEAKER_00 54:39

Yeah, he did uh he did two terms and uh and he was like No thanks. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

It's tough up there.

SPEAKER_00 54:47

It's tough. He's working uh close with the the governor now, but it's it's but it's it's tough up there, as you guys know. No, for sure takes a lot out of you. Right on.

SPEAKER_02 54:55

Awesome. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. We'll see you guys.