Why the US Cloud Act Is a Threat to Your Data

In this episode, Ray Quattromini speaks with Richard Howson, UK Channel Manager at Impossible Cloud, about one of the most overlooked risks in enterprise storage the US Cloud Act.

Richard explains why simply storing data in the UK isn't enough if you're using a US-based cloud provider, and how true data sovereignty requires knowing where your data lives, who has legal access to it, and how it's protected. They also dig into the real cost of hyperscaler storage, the growing demand for UK sovereign solutions across all sectors, and how Impossible Cloud is positioning itself as the go-to object storage layer in a multi-cloud world.

A must-listen for MSPs, resellers and IT leaders navigating data compliance and cloud cost control.

Chapters
00:00 Introduction – Meet Richard Howson from Impossible Cloud
00:46 What Is Impossible Cloud and Richard's Role in the UK Launch
01:04 The US Cloud Act – What It Means for Your Data
02:16 How Impossible Cloud Delivers True Data Sovereignty
02:43 Why Hyperscalers Are Failing on Cost Transparency
04:09 How Impossible Cloud Pricing Works – Zero Egress, Zero API Fees
05:11 Setting Up Buckets and Managing Customers as an MSP
05:50 Immutability, Versioning and Data Encryption Explained
06:39 Cloud Performance – Does It Match the Hyperscalers?
07:47 S3 Compatibility and Software Integrations (Veeam, Acronis, HYCU)
09:23 Ransomware Recovery – How Fast Can You Restore?
10:00 Why Impossible Cloud Focus on Object Storage Only
12:15 The Partner-First Channel Model – No Direct Sales
13:57 The Problem With Hyperscaler Lock-In
16:19 Why You Need to Understand and Classify Your Data Now
18:47 Use Cases – CCTV, Media & Entertainment, AI Training Data
21:17 API Automation for MSPs and Resellers
23:14 Why Data Sovereignty Is Now a Board-Level Decision
27:02 Where Cloud Storage Is Heading in the Next 5 Years
29:23 Wrap Up

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Your data is stored in the cloud, but who actually owns it? With US tech giants holding jurisdiction over your files, regardless of where they're hosted, the question of true data sovereignty has never mattered more. We sit down with Richard Housen from Impossible Cloud to find out what European built cloud storage changes. Let's dive into the conversation.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Hi, I'm Ray Quattramini from Fortuna Data. Welcome to Smarter Strategic Thinking. Today we have Richard Housen from Impossible Cloud. Hello, Richard, nice to meet you. Hi, Ray, thanks for having me. How did you get into this industry?

SPEAKER_01 0:34

What's your background? Upon completing my business degree with the university, I came out and, like a lot of people, was a bit, you know, multiple options, not sure exactly what the channel was, but ended up working with a quite a young MSP um business in South Wales at the time. From that point, I absolutely loved it. So I was with them for a number of years and they've now grown to be probably Wales' largest MSP or IT provider, which has been great to watch them grow with the MSP side of things, but also multinationals, BT, for example. Through those moves, it's led me to Impossible Cloud, which is where I am now. What do you do at Impossible Cloud? What's your role? I am the channel manager for UK and Islands. I've been brought in to actually launch Impossible Cloud into the UK. It's been going since 2020 and very well established within uh Central Europe and EMIR. But I was brought in to launch the UK side of things with a colleague.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Of late, I I myself, um, and speaking to you and some other vendors that we deal with, we'd be talking about the US Cloud Act. How can Impossible Cloud solve this issue?

SPEAKER_01 1:35

No longer around where data's stored or resides, but actually around who has jurisdiction and is there true sovereignty in place. So the US Data Act states that um the US gov have access to data of any clo American cloud company and if they require the data that's being held, they have access to that data at any time, regardless of where that data actually sits. So by being a European-based company, storing data and retaining data within different geo geo regions, so let's say the UK, we are not applicable to that act, so we negate the impact of the US Data Act, and we can provide true data sovereignty from that perspective. How we can do that is we can guarantee where data is stored, we can guarantee and specify who has legal control and access to that data, and we can ensure and specify how that data is protected and how it's accessed. And they're the three main points that any company needs to know if they want to ensure data is fully sovereign.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Right. No, thank you very much. That's that's quite good for our viewers that are using US cloud vendors for their storage. So another question I've got here is most organisations today rely heavily on hyperscalers to provide their storage. From your perspective, where does this fall short in terms of providing storage transparency and longer-term cost controls? Because we all hear about egress and ingress charges and even API charges. What do you do differently?

SPEAKER_01 3:04

First thing I'd say is that hyperscalers have done a great job in actually making cloud accessible and scalable to uh companies of all sizes, but as you exactly right said, there's the transparency and cost control is is lost within that, okay, to say the least. Firstly, the price and complexity. You are given a fairly simple upfront cost, build your budgets based on that, but then hidden costs in terms of retention periods of data, API call charges, in terms of egress costs, etc. Now they slowly ramp up to be quite a significant impact upon that budget, and it's that price and complexity where it's very hard to actually understand what those prices or budgets are going to be because of how complex it's made. Secondly, is the lack of cost predictability at scale. So everything we just mentioned is amplified as the storage set gets bigger, makes it very difficult, and the transparency of the role and ownership. So again, we spoke about the US Data Act, who has ownership and access to that data is very important as well from a transparency point of view. I've actually spoken to a number of companies where they've employed dedicated teams or employees simply to understand and manage cloud cost. And that was their sole job. And I think that that that blows my mind that you haven't employee departments to do that. What we do at Impossible Cloud is make things as easily adoptable and transparent as possible. So we operate a simple price per terabyte model with zero API call charges, zero egress fees, and zero retention period on data. What that means is that the price that is agreed and put forward is the price that will be paid further down the line. Now, that's really important for end users, but it's also really important for the channel so that MSPs and resellers and VARs are able to actually confidently put that cost across to their client without having some sort of bill shock on the back of it. So for us, it's about being as transparent and clear on that, on the cost that we can be, but also being incredibly simple in terms of adoption.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

That's really good because a lot of the times, and we had Seagate here recently, and they were talking about the API charges outweighed the cost of their actual storage charges, which is doesn't make any sense to me. But and and these are all hidden in the background, and then there's nothing up front about it. If if an organization coming with Impossible Cloud, they would see that price, and that price is fixed. And so how easy, and I know we've set this up here, we've got a QNAP over there, viewers can't see it, but we've got a QNAP and we're backing up to that, and that's going to your cloud. We as a partner would set you up, we would set up buckets, customers get they get control of their buckets effectively, don't they? So they have the secret keys and everything else. So we just create the login details, and then that's their bucket, and then we charge them on the cost of their bucket every month. That's how it typically works.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Exactly right. And you're in control of the allocation of storage that you're putting to them. Now you can obviously put in soft limits or hard limits and manage that allocation of capacity as as you wish, but what you're doing is facilitating them with their bucket, providing them with an allocated amount of storage, and you're able to do that on multiple instances who are sort of management console.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

One of the other things as well is you provide immutability, you provide versioning data retention period. Yeah, and you can set that all up from the GUI, can't you?

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Absolutely. Yeah, so being as transparent as we can and most easily adoptable, we have zero retention period on data. Obviously, we'd advise not doing it within 24 hours for obvious reasons, but that again means that you're not getting penalized for accessing your data when you need, and we don't feel like you should ever have to do that. As you said, all of our data is fully immutable, okay, and again managed through the management console. We offer a fully air gap solution, so datally encrypted both in transit and in situ. And we've got identity access management, MFA, and other procedures in place which you can put in. So what we're adopting and looking to put forward is an enterprise grade S re storage solution.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

Um and one of the other things that I think is slightly different is your cloud performance is stable. You you know, it doesn't go up and down in peaks and troughs. What you say in performance is what you get.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

We provide a single tier and layer of offering with our storage. Okay, so we provide everyone with the fastest possible storage platform that we can. Data sovereignty, we talk about cost predictability, all of that. But I guess none of that really matters unless we can perform really well. So we need to perform incredibly highly in terms of reliability, but also in terms of speed, and we do that very, very well from our perspective. Regularly do CloudRite tests, so every week, every day, we've got CloudRite tests running to assess our performance and to assess the performance of where we are in comparison to our competitors. And in doing so, we're regularly at or above hyperscale level in terms of speed, and we have incredibly low variance as well. Yes. So if we can deliver that along with a really cost-effective platform, it's fantastic because everything that we do is based on our performance and reliability. Everything else that comes after it is an add-on or a benefit, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

So Impossible Cloud, what software vendors do you work with or currently working with to create an S3 connector?

SPEAKER_01 8:05

So we are 100% S3 compatible. So that means that we can work with any S3 compatible uh platform out there. We have native integrations to all of the leading backup ISVs and S3 integrators. So the likes of Veeam, Acronis, Hansura, we're currently going through the certifications with. Yeah, as well. We have native integrations to a lot of these. Even if we don't have native integrations, we will be able to integrate with them via S3 connectivity. And what that means again for partners, we could be used as a single repository for multiple vendors that they're using. Yes. Okay, so you're not having to have multiple different backup vendors for X, Y, and Z provider. You can have us as a single repository for multiple integrators on the on the front end.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

And you mentioned Veeam then a lot of a lot of customers they they use Veeam and they want immutability. So you integrate quite well with Veeam as well.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Absolutely. So the way that Veeam actually do their backups means that they have huge amounts of backup firing through. Yeah. Because we have a very high-performing platform, we can do that incredibly well. So we work incredibly well in terms of Veeam backup set. For example, we launched version two of our platform in December this year and doing some testing around Veeam because it's one of the more complex systems. We were twice as quick in doing a uh a backup. We were two hours as opposed to our competitor, say, which was four hours. So, in terms of you know costs and things like that, it's great, but actually, in terms of performance and in improving um workloads on that side of things, we can perform really well.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Dell was advocate. So let's assume that customer has been attacked by a ransomware. Are you also saying that getting that data back from the cloud and restored back to site is much quicker as well? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

We would be very fast in delivering that. Obviously, there comes a um a bottleneck in terms of the customer's connection. Yes. And to be honest, that's the limiting factor is always the internet connection. We would be delivering at far faster speeds than would be uh than would be throughput through general um connectivity. So we would never be the bottleneck on that side of things.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

The storage that you provide is object storage, S3 object storage, basically.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Correct. When we set out, we wanted to be a leader in European S3 cloud storage. We do one thing and do one thing incredibly well. That's our focus, that's our drive, is to be the default go-to provider when things work into a multi-cloud area. We want to be the standout S3 cloud storage platform. How we do that is by doing one thing incredibly well, making things incredibly easily adoptable, and making things incredibly transparent. So a single tier of storage speed. Okay, always the fast that we can. Storage is always hot, never having to look into a glacial system or is it hot, warm, cold, lukewarm? Who knows? With us, it's always hot. And in terms of cost, you've got a single per terabyte cost without any API charges, egress fees, no retention period on data. So we want to make this incredibly easy to adopt for all people, incredibly easy to understand, and mitigate any of that bill shock that we spoke about before, which is I didn't realise how impactful it was in the industry until I got into the skin of things. Um and and make things easy to manage and adopt through the S3 integration, for example.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

One of the things that we we discussed earlier was with our QNAP over there was as a backup target that can simultaneously back up to A a QNAP, B a tape library, and C to Impossible Cloud simultaneously. So you haven't got to create separate backup jobs, and we've got it running and it does work seamlessly. And we'll be doing a video on that possibly next month. But in terms of setting it up, we just we just set up as a generic S3 cloud connector and it worked. It wasn't, you know, it didn't take long at all. So I'm very pleased with that from even our point of view.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

You have that through the management console. It's just to set up a new user as a P or as a VAR would take four or five minutes maximum to do so. And it's very intuitive through that management console. And what we want to do is we want to be part of an ecosystem, we want to be very easy to work with and adoptable from that perspective, fully working it hand in hand with the QNAP guys, you know, and and with Panzuras and the Veeams and the Chrome system. So we want to be part of that ecosystem. We're not looking to necessarily replace people, but we want to be part of a solution that has been delivered to clients.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

As an organization, you only deal with partners, so you don't go direct to end users, so it's all partner level led uh introduction.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Channel is central to everything that we do, and it's what is allowing us to grow quite successfully. Partners have got that local knowledge, they've got relationships that they've built up over 10, 20 years, you know, like 40 years. Yeah. Um and and that's fantastic. And you know, and we we rely on that and we leverage that in order to be able to build a really strong partner network and allow us to grow. Equally, we have to, it's a two-way street, right? So we have to bring things back to the partners and we have to make sure that any relationship is really win-win. How can we help you as a partner? We can help you differentiate, okay? Being able to provide a truly UK sovereign or European sovereign cloud solution. We can help partners maintain and expand margins and revenues, but equally provide you with a platform that is really stable, really reliable, really easy to use. And that's where we see this two-way, the two-way channel benefit, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

It's not so much about hosting applications, it's more about storing the data. So there's a lot of data out there that sits on pools of storage, is in different cloud vendors, and but and part of the problem I've heard this story more than once is we may be with Azure, for example, and all our data's in there, but it's very hard for them. So let's say they were with Azure for their hosting and they want to go to AWS for their hosting, it's very hard for them to take that data out, move it to somewhere else. Whereas you're because you're cloud storage agnostic, you can just change the pointers and you haven't got to move any data.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

This is one thing that really does grind on me, I guess, really, is that almost that silent lock-in that comes from a hyperscaler model. Yeah, I find it really frustrating because what we aim to do, especially you know, if you look into the UK and EU data app, what platforms and swap storage providers incredibly high egress fees, okay, and the complexity of doing migrations makes it a huge summing block to doing so.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

And and incredibly time consuming.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

What we're doing is saying that right, there's gonna be no egress fees on that. So you've got issues in terms of FOST in moving away. We are 100% SV compatible, so it means that you can move to any S3 compatible platform as well. So you're not necessarily tied in from that perspective. Equally, you can work with any S3 compatible platform. So we could be the single repository, as I said earlier, for multiple different partners, technology partners. In our opinion, it's the customer's data, they should stay in control of that data, and they should always be able to move that data away without penalty as a minimum. So, what we're trying to do is give end users and customers choice and control of their data again, and that control again is what links back to being able to provide a truly sovereign solution from that perspective.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

I think that's incredibly important that your data should remain outside of the control of the hyperscalers, because ultimately you don't want to pay charges to move between different vendors over time because you know businesses change personnel, you know, accountants get involved with why are we paying this for the cloud? And let's look at this, and they they juggle it around and they f forever spend moving, they're spending all their time moving data from A to B. Whereas if you've got an independent partner that's providing cloud storage at super fast performance and everything else, then you've not got any of those issues.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

I completely agree, and I think it's only going to get harder and harder as data grows, okay. And if we if we say data's growing easily 25% year on year, over a three-year period that data set has doubled, okay? So it's twice as hard to then move that data because of again, twice the workload, twice the cost, etc. So it's really important that companies actually assess things now or as early as possible, understand where they want their data sitting and understand the cost implications of whoever they're with, and then committing to that side of things earlier rather than later, simply because it's just going to get harder.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Because traditionally, and and I know this still goes on, is customers see the cloud as their panacea. At the end of the day, it's their data, they have to back up their data, they have to put controls in their data. But one of the things that I've actually seen quite often is people are just take a pool of storage, not understanding what it is, and just dump it to the cloud. But they don't know what they put in the cloud, or they may know some of it that they put in the cloud, but but John left two years ago and Bob left five years ago, and etc. etc. And all that data's in the cloud, and they but they don't actually know what they're storing in the cloud. So part of the thing that that we're increasingly doing as a business is we're trying to classify data before it leaves the premises, so that organizations could put it in that bucket, in that bucket, in that bucket, and then they know exactly what it is because data has a life span depending on what industry you're in, and so after so many years they may have to delete that data, but that's not currently happening.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Yeah, exactly. And I think I think that will become more prevalent as we go on over the years, right? Because people are going to be far more aware of costs and complexity of storing that data and trying to understand which data needs to be stored, okay? Which need data needs to be stored off-site, for example, which data needs to be immutable and and have that security aspect of things, which doesn't. So there's you know, there's lots of different classes of of data, and it's about understanding it before it sooner rather than later again before you do it, right? And um, and yeah, that's one thing that we're seeing massively. I think what Impossible Cloud allows on that perspective is because we would be I we never lead on cost, but I would say generally we're a cost leader in terms of S3 cloud storage, and that does allow companies then to store more data and allow them to have store more data within a certain budget, obviously given that it's properly organized, but it as opposed to having to limit the amount of storage that they um store or delete because of capacity issues, they're able to store more data for a longer period of time with a possible cloud because it makes it more economic to do so. But it all comes back to storing the right data and understanding that the data that they're storing.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

Yeah, exactly that. Is what down here is data volumes are accelerating rapidly with AI analytics and high-resolution video workloads. One of the things that we've been looking at is CCTV storage, and your platform fits in perfectly with that because we can set an immutable time frame for video content storage based on 30 days or 31 days or whatever it is, and then we could reuse that storage. So that that's another use case for Impossible Cloud is CCTV.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Yeah, we see it hugely, it's uh it's a major focus for us, and more broadly, media and entertainment side of things as well for that reason. Okay, we can again with regards to the security side of things, yeah, absolutely, and again, we can guarantee um the um immutability for x period of time and then automatically delete it, etc. But within media side of media entertainment, there's a lot of intellectual property as well, and for that, you really need that data sovereignty. Do you want that falling into hands of you know other organizations or governments, for example? So if you're working within the UK again, on media and film, then you want that data retained, geofenced, and and legally been unable to be accessed by anyone because it's that that um that intellectual property. Yeah, absolutely. And again, with the AI volumes of data within AI, it's that cost transparency. Yes. Okay, is understanding what is this going to cost me. And obviously, data lakes are being used now a lot more for that AI side of things, but I see S2E storage being a perfect platform for that end structured data for AI. So being able to use object storage for AI training and learning, for example, and storing that data from that perspective. But it's it's there, I think it's S2E is only going to be increasing massively with the adoption of AI.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

It's a perfect platform. It is a perfect platform as as a as another tier of storage that they have. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

And and that's the exact point, is that I think there's often a misconception that if you're using data with AI, all data needs to be hot, super hot, super low latency, and it needs to be delivered within a nanosec. And a lot of it does, but not all of it. Okay, and there'll be a vast amount of data that needs to be stored for training of AI and for for access of for different uh uh data sets. And S3 is perfect for that. Okay, there's very much a space for S3 storage within AI. Um, and it's I I believe it's gonna grow massive from that perspective. But with that, cost becomes an enabler being to being able to do that. Do you support APIs? Yeah, absolutely. So we touched on the management console that we have. Any action that you can do on the management console, you're able to action via an API. So you can automate all the tasks that you would do in terms of uh new c new bucket creation, new client setup, and even things like automatically drawing down billing uh requirements on that side of things. So you have an automated CSV sent to you, and again improving that uh sort of minimization of build shock and understanding and being able to bill out incredibly easy. Um, every action you do on the management console, you can actually replicate via an API. This then works really well when we are um talking to companies that want a direct integration, for example. Okay, so we can act, and one case of this would be with a uh in a document management space where we're working with companies that might work within a um a legal sector or finance sector where they do a document management piece. We could sit behind that as a as a storage console, yeah, site and scene. They can utilize our API integration to automate the uh delivery and set up of accounts, and all of that process is is managed back end by us, but delivered via API. So it's incredibly incredibly useful. And there's other aspects around you know, even white labeling, you know, being able to integrate the API functions with white label solution for clients as well. If they wanted to have geoblogs object storage, then they're able to actually deliver that with their own branding, okay, us as a back end, and then automate everything that they need to for setup and and what have you and management via API. So absolutely. And uh I think that's for me that's a huge way that things are going is how can we we've got this setup, but how can we make it more efficient? Yes, and how can we make it more scalable? And that is done via the automation through API.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Data sovereignty and I know we've touched on it earlier, but what what other things, what are you seeing as a business from a point of view of why companies want data sovereignty and what sort of requests are you seeing? Absolutely, again, really good point.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

So what we're seeing is that there's a bit of a shift in terms of who's requiring data sovereignty, whereas it was quite niche before. You'd have highly um highly certified industries such as finance, healthcare, public sector. They would be requesting it at times, okay, in terms of their their procurement process. Now, all of these sectors have to have UK sovereign solutions, but it's moved from a niche market to a wide open market. So now, regardless of what sector you're in, everyone is ideally looking for a UK sovereign storage platform. And if given the opportunity, you could choose between UK sovereign and a European company or an American company, which are both on par in terms of performance and reliability, I think 99% of people would choose the European option. And that's what we're getting to now. We're we are a genuine option in the face of a hyperscaler American um uh option from that perspective. So what we're seeing is that whereas it was niche for those highly compliant industries, it's now every industry is changing how they actually adopt more sovereign products throughout their stack, not just um data storage. What we're also seeing is that when it comes to tenders, they're now specifying on tenders, particularly in the public sector, that data UK data sovereignty is a must for their cloud storage. Okay. And in order to fully prove that, you have to guarantee where that data sits, prove who has access or legislation over that data, and how that data is managed and accessed going forward. In short, because of the US Data Act that we spoke about earlier, we are negating that by being a fully European company, being able to store data within the UK and geofence that data within the UK. If you're using an American company, again, let's just say a hyperscaler, AWS, you won't get that full UK data sovereignty. It will just be data residency, which doesn't tick that box.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Right. And and are you saying also that C level management watching this video would also tick that box as well?

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Absolutely. And and it's safeguards from their perspective. That they're making a decision and they're able to choose a UK sovereign solution, they have done their due diligen due diligence in terms of their um their back-end process. But equally it helps their supply chain as well. Okay, if they're being able to provide this a UK sovereign solution which mitigates the impact of other people accessing their data, they're securing their future um supply chain from that side of things as well. So, yeah, absolutely. I'd say that data sovereignty now is is uh a C level um a board level decision with most aspects of things. Um even when you're um using an on-prem solution, okay. So if we're integrating with let's say QNAP or or what have you, being able to then have an off-site, a mutable solution stored in the cloud that is still UK sovereign is fantastic and it mirrors the principles that QNAP, for example, offer. Yes. So we're able to replicate that and enhance the delivery of other vendors, for example.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Looking ahead five years from now, where where do you see the cloud storage landscape? And where where do you see impossible cloud in five years from now? But we were talking about you're you're gonna merge platforms and we were talking about the GUIs and the interfaces, so that's all in development, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Yeah, absolutely. So improving our user interface to make things incredibly easy adoptable again for end users as well as partners. Okay, so merging our management console with our uh uh storage console to making improvements that way. Again, one thing I love about the the product we have is how intuitive and and easy to use that management console is for end users and for uh for partners, and how easy it is to drag down bills and and access billing and understand your usage and see things very easily. So ease of use is is massive from our perspective. But where I where I think generally the the market's going is to moving away from a one-size-fits-all and adopting more of a multi-cloud platform. So, whereas people have adopted hyperscalers in the past, and again, they've been fantastic in enabling and doing so, I think the trend now will be towards a more diverse market where you've got multi-cloud and specialist ecosystems where companies and partners and resellers are able to pick specific platforms, and we've spoken about some of them today, you know, the Panzeras, the QNE, etc., which are fantastic at doing what they do, and you can pick out specialists in each area to build the cloud ecosystem that you want. Yes. And where I would love to see Impossible Cloud and the dream for Impossible Cloud for me is to become the go-to object storage layer within that multi-cloud environment. Okay, being able to deliver on sovereignty, being able to deliver on performance, being able to deliver on a really economic cost to enable different projects and to make that incredibly easily adoptable and tr and transparent from that perspective. So that's where I see things going. I do think as well, in general, cost transparency over the next five years is going to be massive as well. We're going to see budgets have to increase significantly. Okay. And in doing so, they need to be accurate and able to forecast that that cost, being able to track that cost and and do it from that perspective, which is again where I see us leading quite well on that. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 29:41

If you want to like and subscribe, or you have any questions for us to put in future podcasts, please let us know. But Richard, thank you very much for today. Cheers, thank you.