Episode 17 | Breathwork, Trauma, Masculinity and the Search for Meaning

In this episode of The Trauma Educator Podcast, I’m joined by Jamie Clements, founder of The Breath Space and host of the Human Nature Podcast, recognised as a leading voice in the wellbeing space and an expert breathwork facilitator whose work explores the intersection of breath, consciousness, and human potential.

Together, we explore the most common misconceptions people have about breathwork, and why many people misunderstand what the practice is actually for. We talk about how Jamie’s own life has changed through this work, what shifted internally and externally, and how breathwork became more than a practice, but a way of living.

We also discuss breathwork through a trauma-informed lens, including the dos and don’ts for people with trauma histories, and why safety, pacing, and discernment matter so much when working with the nervous system. Jamie explains how breathwork can sometimes create experiences as transformative as psychedelics, the mechanics behind altered states of consciousness, and the difference between working with a practitioner versus trying it alone. 

We speak about the modern obsession with optimisation and self-improvement, and the importance of learning how to sit with discomfort instead of constantly chasing the next fix or hack. 

We also move into a conversation around masculinity, the rise of the manosphere, and what it means for men to confront identity, purpose, and emotional maturity. Jamie shares his own reflections on what Jung would call the puer aeternus—the eternal boy—and his personal work of moving toward grounded, embodied manhood. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Hello, wonderful humans, and welcome to another episode of the Trauma Educator Podcast. I'm excited today because I have with me Jamie Clemens today, who is the founder of the Breath Space and host of the Human Nature Podcast, recognized as a leading voice in the well-being space and an expert breath work facilitator. Jamie's work explores the intersection of breath, consciousness, and human potential, drawing from Zen philosophy, non-dual approaches, modern neuroscience, and psychology to guide people towards deeper awardedness and transformation. Jamie has worked with top entrepreneurs, politicians, athletes, and global brands sharing the life-changing potential of breath work and alter states of consciousness. Jamie, welcome. Thank you for joining me today.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Thank you so much, Effie. It's always amusing and interesting to hear my own bio read back to me. So thank you for the warm welcome and the introduction. And yeah, I'm really excited for our conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Of course. And this resonates. Sometimes when we hear our own bio, it can feel a little bit am I that person?

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

So um so breathwork um is a well-known modality for supporting people with stress, anxiety, achieving better outcomes for well-being in their lives. And at the same time, I think there are some common misconceptions people have about it. Can you please talk to us about these common misconceptions that you feel people have and that you see in your own practice?

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Yeah, absolutely. The the first thing that comes to mind is the concept or the narrative that has become a part of the breath work world and the wellness world more broadly, which is that we're breathing wrong. You know, there's a lot of, and I've probably even spoken to this at points earlier in my career of saying, you know, everybody's breathing wrong and we need to fix it. When the reality is a lot of people, a lot of the general public, a lot of us are breathing in a way that might not be completely supportive of our health, our overall well-being. And that's a fact. And that's driven by environmental factors, that's driven by stress, that's driven by lots of different things. But the narrative that we are breathing wrong, and that being the thing that we lead with, is, in my view, not conducive and helpful to well-being. Because then the reason and the thing that really illuminated that for me was that I have had so many messages. I've had a number of my clients come into my practice and begin to work with me and say, you know, I'm so anxious about my breathing. I really feel like I'm breathing poorly. And, you know, I actually feel worse than when I started. And we go, okay, well, something isn't working here if that is what people are presenting with this sort of anxiety around how they breathe. And so, yes, we can all be breathing better, but should it be something that we fixate on that we're overly anxious about? In my opinion, no. And so we have to walk this tightrope of supporting people to breathe in a way that is helpful and supportive to their overall well-being, but not to such an extent that people are anxious and stressed about their breath in the first place, because that's often what people are coming to the breath for, is to support with stress. And so we don't want to create that friction. Um, so I'd say that's the that's the main the main one that that spans breath as a modality. And then I suppose the the other is really clarifying what breath work really is, because actually, even within the industry, there's still people going, you know, this is breathwork. Oh no, this is breathwork. And we can't quite get to this singular understanding and definition of what breath work truly is. And I'm not claiming to be right in how how I answer that question, but I feel that there is so much uh breadth to the role the breath can play that it can't be confined to just one area of how we use the breath. You know, if we look at any ancient wisdom tradition, any indigenous culture, um, any spiritual tradition as well, the breath isn't a neatly packaged tool. It's the fabric of our essence as human beings, it's spirit, it's sacred. And the Western world has sort of distilled that down into this nicely, neatly packaged modality. And in doing so, we've lost some of that sacredness that the breath holds. And so I think really helping people to understand that breath sort of sits at the top of the tree is this connection to self, but also connection to everything around us, as well as then looking at breath work as a collection of practices, of modalities, of different tools that we can use to work with our breath, our body, our mental state, our emotional well-being in so many different ways, from very simple practices in the day-to-day kind of micro level, all the way through to these deeper, um, more transformational, altered state of consciousness type experiences and everything in between. And so I think the probably the misconception or the myth underneath that is that the breath is simple and that the breath doesn't matter. Because I think as that slightly long-winded answer maybe demonstrates that there is so much that we can do with the breath that can support us mental well-being, emotional well-being, physical well-being, and even spiritual well-being. And so there really is a huge amount under the skin of the breath that can present as such a simple thing to most of us.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Thank you for sharing this. And I would like to make a comment on the first aspect of what you shared, which is um when people think that they are breathing not in the right way, they become overly fixated on their breath. And this can create more anxiety. And I think, especially me coming from a trauma background where I support people who sometimes have this perfectionistic side in them, this can really trigger that side. Because somehow we are conditioned, even in those wellness spaces, to believe that in order for us to feel better and live better, we have to do everything right. And we have to have all these complex protocols, and we have to take all these boxes from the moment we wake up until the moment we go to bed. And this, of course, can become so complicated that really doesn't allow for any of us to get really better, but actually activate those parts within ourselves that feel already not enough.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

100%. And I think I'm glad you brought that up because you know, we talk about it here in the context of breath work, but actually it's personal development or self-help or wellness at large right now. Is I say to anybody who comes into my spaces, you know, the only thing that needs fixing is the belief that there is something to fix. And it's this self-acceptance piece, which we can get to by using these modalities and using these tools. It's not to say that the tools and the modalities don't have their place, but it's actually to look at why and how you're using them. Is it another form of shaming yourself, of not accepting yourself, of thinking that there is somewhere that you need to reach and somewhere to get to where everything will be okay? When actually it's this sort of homecoming process of self-acceptance that creates that inner freedom and liberation that we're all ultimately seeking. And so, yeah, I think we have a duty of care and a responsibility as uh facilitators and practitioners in this space to be sharing the knowledge and sharing the practices, but through that lens of these are here to support you to be fully human rather than, yeah, something in your perfectionist toolkit.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Absolutely. And Jamie, can you please, um, for people who maybe don't know you or don't know your personal journey, and maybe they would like an example of how breath work can be a tool that can support someone's um evolution and healing in a way that is foundational. If someone could see how you live your life, let's say eight years ago, and how you live your life now, uh, but not only just on the outside, but also on the inside, what has changed for you?

SPEAKER_00 8:38

A lot is the short answer, but I can give you a little bit more than that. So I suppose the shortish version of my journey to breath work was from the age of about 15 through to my early 20s, around the age of 23. Um, I had a number of challenges with my mental health, with anxiety, with depression, with panic attacks. But those for me were symptoms of the deeper root cause, which was a deep disconnect from myself or what I would call my soul. And that primarily was driven by this compulsive need to fit in. And so I desperately wanted to fit in, to be accepted, to ultimately be loved. And that pulled me further and further away from myself. And the side effects of that for me were anxiety, depression, and then in my early 20s, panic attacks. And that then led me into therapy, it led me into yoga, into meditation, and then eventually to breath work. And breath work was like the light switch going back on in my soul. And so, what what's what changed initially? And this also speaks to the model that I like to approach breath work through that I started touching upon of micro and and macro of kind of these day-to-day experiences, but also these deeper experiences. Because the first thing that I experienced as someone experiencing quite intense anxiety was a restoration of a sense of agency, a sense of autonomy. I felt very powerless for a number of years, to my experience of my nervous system, of anxiety and of panic attacks. It was like a trigger would happen and I would be in a panic attack, and there was no, there was no gap, there was no space. And so, actually, just this understanding and embodiment that the breath is this remote control that we can support and shift the state of the nervous system with, gave it almost shifted me from the passenger seat back to the driver's seat, where I was like, okay, I have more of a say in my experience of this anxiety than I ever thought I did. And so it was those day-to-day moments of working with my body, my mind, my nervous system, just to bring down that overall level of intensity and kind of get my head back above water. So learning to support myself in that way. It then transitioned more towards some of these deeper experiences with conscious connected breathing and more um transformational styles of breath work where we're tapping into these altered states of consciousness. And it was through experiences with um those modalities of breath work that I started connecting to suppressed emotions, uh, started integrating some of those suppressed emotions, um, past experience, past adverse experiences, um, but also within that realm of working with that emotional charge, also starting to connect to a sense of spirituality and a connection to something greater, which for me, I was a very pretty stereotypical young man in my early 20s who saw the world in black and white, and it was all scientific, literalist, materialist worldview. And that was very depressing as a way of viewing the world. And through these mystical experiences and experiences with altered states of consciousness through breath work, it just expanded my frame and my lens through which I could look at the world around me and really connected me to meaning, to purpose, to a sense of something greater than myself. And those two in tandem of the micro and the macro, of actually supporting my system day to day, but then also being able to explore these deeper realms of the psyche and the self piece together in this beautiful relationship to lead me to where I am today. And I suppose what does what's the felt experience of that as to where I was then and and where I am now? It's really hard to put into words, I think is the simplest sense of it. But if I had to try a sense of aliveness, uh I think my world had become very numb and very grey for quite a long time, about 10 years of my life. And over the last 10 years, it's like the colour has been amplified and brightened and turned back up. And I, you know, I can say hand on heart, and it occasionally makes me emotional. It doesn't so much anymore. But the fact that I can sit here and say I love my life, you know, to me in my early 20s would have been, you know, yeah, right, you know, toxic positivity. No one loves their life, but actually I love my life now, and and that is is the simplest way that I can probably put it into words.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Wow. Um, I would like to touch on a couple of things that you've mentioned, uh, because I feel it would be very important to slow down and for the people who are listening to us or watching, because you've mentioned something about feeling powerless, and this is such a common experience, especially amongst people who've experienced trauma. And I'm not saying that this was your experience or not, um, but this is uh something that I experienced myself as a result of uh different traumatic experience I went through. And having worked with several people who've experienced uh trauma, one common theme is this feeling of being powerless, helplessness, that even if I um do something, nothing is gonna change, or there's nothing even I can do. And that can make us feel so stuck. And of course, there are so many other layers that shame can be attached to it, terror and fear can be attached to it. And of course, those things can lead to panic attacks. And your story resonates with me because my panic attacks actually were the point where I felt, wait a minute, um, I need to slow down and really look at my life and see what is really going on here and look internally. So it was a wake-up call in a similar way. Um so this is so wonderful to start seeing in our lives that actually we're not as powerless as we were conditioned to believe, or our nervous system was stuck in that kind of state that felt I don't have any choice. And this reclamation of choice, this reclamation of um taking aligned action or even messy action, and it doesn't matter. And having that restoration of hope that if I do something today, even a small thing, can make some difference in my life, maybe not today, but tomorrow, the day after, can be life-changing.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Absolutely. Yeah, I I love that sense of aligned action. I often talk about inspired action, um, you know, inspired coming from to breathe in, and actually this sense of connecting to something again beyond ourselves and the small steps to self-empowerment that we can take when actually in that moment of making a decision for yourself, taking the different path, you know, which can feel really challenging because it's unfamiliar, and we often confuse unfamiliar for unsafe. And so we go, okay, I'm gonna choose this. And when you do that, even if you don't do it perfectly, you know, what is perfect? But if you don't do it perfectly, um, still the confidence that that instills, and then it becomes you're building that bank of new evidence of who you are as a person, and you start stepping into a very different way of operating and a very different way of existing that can build up slowly with small steps, but then you look, you know, six months back, a year back, five years back, ten years back, and so much has changed. You know, it might have felt gradual, but actually the change over time, if you're consistent with it, is is significant and it really, really makes a difference to that that genuine lived experience of how you move through your life.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

We tend to underestimate the compound effect of small steps that are consistent. Yeah. The other thing you mentioned was uh something you discovered through your own journey, this connection to something greater than yourself. Can you talk us about it a little bit more? What do you mean by that? Of course, this is your personal experience. Um and how do you feel this has uh maybe shaped your path up to this point, but also how this maybe benefits your overall sense of well-being?

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Absolutely. Yeah, it's again something that is not always the the most simple to put into words, but it began as a very subtle knowing and sense of waking up, is the best way I can put it. It's through some of these deeper experiences, both with breath work, but also with psychedelics and plant medicine, where you have this experience that is so outside of the normal waking state consciousness that you view the world through day-to-day that it becomes impossible to ignore the sense that there is much more to this life, this world, this universe, than the mind in its normal state can naturally comprehend. And so it's that expanded view and that shift in the lens that that woke something up in me. But I think what's important is you alluded to in the question is how does that manifest? What does that actually mean? You know, you've got this new sense of something, but what does that give you? Um and for me, the the two words that that come to mind around this are always um faith and trust, uh, and probably love is the third one as well, is kind of the the top of the tree. Um, but faith and trust for me, if your worldview as it was for me is, you know, everything is literal, everything is material, everything is just the six inches in front of my face, what I can see, feel, and touch. Then a lot like some of the trappings that we fall into within wellness, where we make it all about the self, we make it all a me problem. I should be able to fix my situation, I should be able to do this, I should be able to do this. It becomes a very um heavy existence when you know it's all on me, and this is all there is, and you know, it's all on me, and there's nothing greater at play here. And then shifting to where I am now, there's this sense of of trust that there is a flow that is unfolding that I don't need to see. You know, I still make decisions, I still take action, I still have discipline, but there's actually more going on that is outside of my frame of view, that is outside out of my hands, and that I don't have a say in. And that can feel daunting if you go, oh my God, you know, this is out of my hands. You know, we like to be in control. But actually, there is a loving peacefulness to it when you have that faith that, you know, as the saying goes, you know, what's meant for you won't pass you by. And that's how I live my life now is this sense that there is something greater moving the direction that I am heading in. Um, and that something that I believe I really want or I should do may not work out. But if it doesn't work out, that's not a failure of me. That is just that that wasn't for me. And that is how I suppose this deeper sense of spirituality and connection to something greater has affected my life and come into my life. And there's a peace that comes with that. Uh, there's a trust that comes with that. And I'm also fascinated. I don't know if you've come across the work of Dr. Lisa Miller at Columbia, and and they've done um really amazing, rigorous studies of how a connection to faith and spirituality affects the brain regions associated with things like depression and anxiety, and the significant difference in those who do have a connection to faith and spirituality compared to those who don't. And so I love that work because it's quite rare that we see spirit enter the research and see spirituality studied in that way. But to see the real tangible marked impact of it in the research as well is really exciting because I think anybody who does have that connection knows the difference that it makes, but it's still in a very scientifically minded world viewed as woo-woo. It's viewed as, you know, it's a bit out there, but actually, you go, this is real. This makes a difference to mental and emotional well-being, whether we like it or not.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

I think you're also touching in a way to a polar opposite because you started talking at some point about powerlessness, which was your initial experience. And then sometimes what I notice is when we come across this idea of I can heal myself or I can develop myself through personal growth spaces, wellness spaces, sometimes we can go to the polar opposite and we start seeing ourselves as, let's say, omnipotent. Button, that I'm in control of everything. If I set my mind to doing something, it's gonna happen no matter what. And I think sometimes this is a coping mechanism to the natural experience of life that is uncertain to a big degree. That we can be capable, we can have skills, we can have tools, we can evolve absolutely, but everything within a limit. And there are so many things that we are not they are not even within our control, that we cannot change. And there are so many factors beyond our even our conscious awareness that impact the evolution of our journey in life. And I think let's say within the more regulated nervous system, we see that we are not powerless, but at the same time, we are not, let's say, omnipotent in a narcissistic way. And I'm not saying this to pathologize anyone who experienced themselves. I think in my own journey as well, when I went into this healing space and I realized, oh my God, there are all these tools and I can better myself and I can feel better and have this power, I can feel incredible. But sometimes we can go too far where we start seeing ourselves through again the lens of I'm not enough. So if I prove to myself that I'm in control of everything, I will finally feel enough.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Absolutely. Uh yeah, I love this thread. It really aligns with how I look at life as a whole right now, which is almost this idea of a bell curve where, you know, in the example we're talking about, the first stage might be, you know, I'm I have no control. And you feel powerless, and and then you go into I have all the control, which is the stage two. It's like your wellness, it's all the protocols, all the practices, do, do, do. Uh, it's very tight, you know, it's very accumulative and control-based. And then the other end of you know, the spectrum is stage three, which is I have no control. But it's a very different I have no control to stage one. It feels very, very different. And I think it's I I actually view, I'm seeing it a lot in the wellness space right now, this idea of the wellness anarchist, the people who have been into the depths of biohacking, longevity, done all of it, and now they're actually going raving and you know, smoking the odd cigarette and letting loose a little bit, but they've got all of that foundation that they've laid. So they're not going backwards. It might look like they're going backwards, but they're not actually going backwards. And I think actually that middle phase of adding and accumulating and controlling seems to me, at least through my own experience, to be a necessary life cycle stage on the way to realizing that you need less. So it's that kind of adding of more is you can't go from less to less. It has to be less to adding to then coming back to a different kind of simplicity and a different kind of surrender. So yeah, I think it's such a I think it's a point at which we're at as a collective right now is realizing that we've gone to the moon with adding new things in, and now we can let some of them go again and we'll feel lighter and we'll feel freer.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

I love this uh wording, uh, the wellness anarchist. So um I've heard you saying at some point that um breath work can be as effective as psychedelics. Can you explain to us the mechanics of this?

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Yeah, absolutely. So, a couple of really interesting studies that have come out in the last two to three years uh in here in the UK, actually, the guys down at Brighton, Sussex uh medical school, um, they have uh one of the first sort of breathwork research labs and they're doing really amazing, amazing work. And um there was a study that I often cite that came out, I think about 18 months ago, that found that conscious connected breathing, which is this deeper trauma-informed um style of breath work, where we're working um to access these altered states of consciousness, can create mystical and transcendent experiences on par with medium to high doses of psilocybin. So psilocybin being the active ingredient in magic mushrooms. And I it's funny because I read that study and I went, wow. But I always knew that. And everyone in the breathwork world has known that for a really long time. But I think just to see it again in the research and see that it wasn't breathwork can create similar experiences to a mild dose of psilocybin. It was actually medium to high doses. And I've seen that time and time again in retreat settings, in workshop settings, in my one-to-one practice. And it's just, yeah, again, fascinating to see it starting to come to light in the research. But what's going on under the hood when we get into these experiences? So conscious connected breathing can either be done one-to-one or in a group setting, usually and most importantly, from a safety perspective, under the facilitation of a trained facilitator. And in the right set and setting, um, these experiences we work with the breath in this continuous circular pattern of breathing. It's called high ventilation breath work. So not hyperventilation, but kind of controlled high ventilation breath. And the first domino that sets off this experience is when we breathe in this way, we drop our blood CO2 levels. And as we drop blood CO2 levels, we start to create changes in oxygen delivery to parts of the body, but also different parts of the brain. And the interesting thing at that point that I'll say is that that process experientially then just lifts the lid on whatever that individual is going to experience on that day. So very rarely are two experiences for individuals the same, different sessions for the same individual will be both different as well. It's like we're turning down the dial on the monkey mind, default mode network, and turning up the dial on the unconscious mind and those deeper layers of the psyche and the self. And so one of my mentors, Martin McPhilamy, summed it up pretty perfectly in one line. It's that we're creating a trance-like hypnotic state where unconscious material can surface to be integrated. So that's really at the core of conscious connected breath work, and similar to the mechanisms at play with psychedelics, is that we're able to create the conditions for unconscious material to surface. And importantly, and this is why the facilitation is very important, when that material surfaces in a safe container or a container that is intended to be safe, and the individual is resourced enough to be able to hold that themselves and be supported in that by a facilitator, then we can begin to recalibrate our relationship to that material that surfaces. And that's really the healing potential of the breath work in that form. Um so yeah, it's that drop in CO2 levels, changing oxygen delivery and blood flow to certain parts of the brain that opens up that experience.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Now we know that people who've experienced trauma often have a kind of more of a sensitive nervous system. And when they have psychedelic experiences or breathwork experiences, uh sometimes they need, let's say, even more safety and more space for integration and preparation as well. And sometimes I have worked with people who, let's say, went through um experiences that in a way re-traumatized them because that container was not there. It was more reckless. And I want to ask from your own experience as a practitioner who's worked with breathwork for a long time, someone who, let's say, um has experienced trauma and maybe they're also like a highly functional person, um, and they want to go into breath work. And at the same time, they want to make sure that they choose right. They choose the right practitioner or they choose the right um group space so that it's a safe experience, safe enough experience. Um, what are the things that they need to uh look out for to make the best decision for themselves?

SPEAKER_00 30:43

If possible, I would lead with with intuition, which obviously can be challenging if you're in a heightened state, if you're if you've experienced trauma, it's not always the easiest sense to access. But if you do have access to that very visceral gut feel of do I feel safe in this place with this person with this modality, I don't really care about any other factors. If your body is saying no, if your gut is saying no, um, and we can distinguish a little bit between sort of resistance versus intuition, is it just a bit of resistance and reluctance to a deeper experience, or is it a very strong gut feel that actually this isn't for me? That would be my first port of call. Um, however, more practically for me, my my sort of personal professional opinion is that um the breathwork industry has a challenge that it faces in advocating for intensity. Uh, particularly, I'm speaking to these deeper experiences that we've just been describing. Um it makes sense based on some of the research because the research would suggest that the lower we drop CO2 levels, the more significant the altered state of consciousness. So if you were just to take that result, you would say, let's breathe as fast as we can, as heavy as we can, for as long as we can, and something will happen. And if that's our goal, then that might be a really cool, expansive experience, but it also is the highest risk factor for destabilization, retraumatization, and a lack of safety. Um, I personally would encourage people to seek out someone who knows the potency of this work, but because of that understanding, opts for a more gentle, titrated approach. So someone that has a nervous system foundation, someone that actually would be able to go look at someone who might be falling into a deep process and take a read as a facilitator to say, you know, I can see this person has a level of capacity to hold this process. That's really beautiful. Versus this person actually seems like they're starting to spin into a slightly less steady space, a less resource space where they might need more support or they might need to bring themselves right out of that experience. And so it's that that trauma-informed nervous system lens. Um, and I it's hard to put into precise terms, but I'd want to see a level of consideration has gone into how someone approaches the space, the container itself, the language that they use around the breath. Um, you know, there's just some really lazy, you know, light language around it where people talk about getting high on your own supply and things like that, where it's like, I know what ye mean and it sounds cool, but it doesn't necessarily, in my opinion, um speak to the depth the work can go to. Um, and if ever in doubt, I always say to people, you know, speak to somebody, speak to a facilitator about who they've trained with, where they've trained, what that training entailed, um, to get a real feel for who they are as a person and how they approach this work. But I loop all the way back around to go, you know, do you feel safe in their presence? And that's a very internal experience. But that's probably the most important factor.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

That's very useful. Thank you. And I think there have been a mix of factors that have created, I would say, even a misconception around how healing happens. Uh, sometimes we believe that this big trauma releases, um, and through uh very intense cathartic practices, um, we're going to get to a place of more regulation, more capacity. And we just need something to happen. If we do a somatic practice or breath work or psychedelics, we just need this big thing to happen to get to a place of healing. However, in many cases, especially when we talk about uh traumatized nervous systems, that's not the case. And you use the magic word which is titration. Um, it needs to happen in a titrated way because we can create this cool or big expansive experience for someone. However, if the nervous system, but also the capacity of the wider container cannot hold that, then this can cause the opposite outcomes because all this energy, if has it has nowhere to land, uh, what's going to happen? Um, so that's very useful. Thank you for um describing what people can look out for in those experiences.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Yeah, I think it's it's super important. And and I think also because these experiences get compared to psychedelics, because they can be more expansive, they can be more cathartic, they are the most marketable, they're the most easy to promote because no one wants to hear from me that I want them to sit still for 30 minutes and follow their breath or breathe as gently and slowly as they can. There might be some people that do, but again, it's this that bell curve we were talking about where it's you go from nothing, you then go into these big peak experiences, eventually to come back to actually like the simplicity. You know, my self-practice is incredibly simple, probably from the outside looking in very basic and boring, but I know what works for me. And so I think that's something we have to contend with in the age of social media and marketing. That um, I strongly believe in the power of those practices when held responsibly and effectively, but they don't need to be experienced by everyone. They're not appropriate to be experienced by everyone at every time. And so that's hard to, you know, social media doesn't hold nuance particularly well. And so I think it's uh it's an important one, especially in conversations like this where we have a little bit more time that we can talk about kind of the finer details of things.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Yes. And um I think uh what I want us to keep uh is something important that you said that um these cathartic practices can be very marketable. Um, however, they are not the most sustainable, and it's something for us to keep uh in mind, especially if our nervous systems are more sensitive, especially if we have this background of trauma, we will need more titrating experiences. Now, uh you put out a Substack article that I read recently, and um as I was reading through it, my felt that um you are in the midst of a transition. I don't know if this um actually describes your experience, but that's how I read it. And at some point you mentioned that um you do some work uh with your eternal boy, the archetype of the eternal boy. And um I would love for you to share with us, if you're okay, uh what it means to be a man for you and why this work is important for you.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um thank you for asking. I think I suppose to say a little bit more to that archetype of the eternal boy. I think it's rife in society right now. It's this sense of you know peter pan syndrome. We're not growing up. And it's nobody's individual fault, it's very much a collective blame. Um, we've lost rites of passage, we've lost um really deep healthy masculine connection, um, masculine, you know, emotional expression. And I think that has led to a place where we've got a lot of men in positions of power and government in the world who have never had to grow up and therefore they've never grown up. And a lot of these kind of outdated patriarchal models of masculinity um operate under the principle of a zero-sum game. So if women's rights are going to improve, then that must mean that we're going to lose, and therefore we don't want that, so we're going to fight it. Um, if someone else is going to win in business, that means that I'm going to lose, therefore, I'm not going to support what this person is doing. It's very much driven by fear and lack rather than this sense of abundance and reciprocity and mutual flourishing. And, you know, it would be a lie to sit here and say that I was somehow immune to that because I do really think it's a societal collective thing. And I was raised, I went to an all-boys' school. I was I was raised, you know, in a pretty traditionally masculine way. I grew up playing a lot of rugby. I was in very masculine environments. And, you know, that's just the way that we were raised. And I noticed the parts of my life, you know, relationships, in my work, where those patterns were starting to creep in or show themselves in different ways that I really wanted to move beyond. And particularly in the lens through the lens of relationships, I just found myself feeling like a boy and not wanting to feel that way. I think that's the simplest way I can put it was just going, how do I actually get to a point where I feel like I'm stepping into what it means to be a man for me? And the shift that I try to bring to that is that if we take that older model of what it means to be a man as exerting dominance and power over others, it's how can I use uh my power for and with others? So how can you know we raise everybody up together? How can I use that in a, you know, use my place in the world to support others and lift them up? Because I know that it doesn't take anything away from me. If anything, it gives to me, it allows me to be of service, it allows me to support others and and operate from that loving place. And so that's really at the core of the work that I have continued to do on myself. Uh, and yeah, in the piece I wrote recently, I hit a point probably in the last year or so where almost every time I looked at my life and where I'm heading and what I want to do, I looked at it through the lens of this question of is this moving me towards becoming the future husband and father that I want to be? You know, if I were to have children at some point in my future, which I hope to, would I be would would I be proud to be that father? Would I be doing right by my children? Would I be doing right by my partner? Uh and a lot of that for me comes down to this notion or idea of devotion. And can I devote myself selflessly and meaningfully to my work, to my family, to my partner, to my life, to my community. Um, and know that by giving from a place of fullness and kind of pouring from that overflow of self-acceptance, that I can really meaningfully support other people without it creating resentment, without it creating um a burden for anyone, myself included. And it's yeah, I've felt a really tangible shift in the last sort of six to 12 months and starting to really see some of that work drop in. And I was actually talking to somebody about this this morning. I've always very intentionally uh wanted my retreats and my workshops and my work at large to remain open to anybody, regardless of gender, race, sex, whatever, um, age. And uh the reason for that being is I think we're so quick to divide, we're so quick to polarize, and particularly in this deeper emotional work, to witness as a woman, a man expressing his challenges, processing his emotions, you know, that's healing for somebody to witness, and vice versa, um, to see and be seen by people that perhaps we haven't always familiar felt familiar or safe around is what the world needs. And um I think that's the role that we all have to play is actually reminding ourselves that we are on the same team. And yeah, when it comes down to masculinity and not even masculinity, but just how I feel about my role in the world as a man, that's definitely at the core of it as well, is how can we lead by example and lead with with love and lead from that place that allows everyone to be reminded that we are on that that same team.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

You use the word power in the context of that conversation, which I feel is uh very significant because, in my view, I feel a lot of the things that are happening have been happening, the things that we've been hearing about the Epstein files and um the Manosphere and uh this uh rape academy recently that was revealed by CNN point I think to this theme of um a man. needs the the current concept of masculinity is I have to have power over the feminine in order to feel significant, in order to survive, in order to prove that I'm worthy. And it's somehow the feminine is seen as there as a kind of um not even as there's some sort of dehumanization that happens to achieve personal means. And I feel this work that you're describing that you're doing with yourself is so, so significant for anyone who is really interested in making any change in the cultural landscape that we are in right now. But of course we need to start from ourselves and um the man, every man needs to focus on themselves and see how am I internalizing this? But also as women, how are we internalizing those values and we're projecting onto each other?

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Yeah, 100% I think there's that individual responsibility that we all have and particularly with some of the news that's come out recently from that CNN report, something that I have felt in myself since then and and prior to that, but but even more significantly since is um how important it is for us to not let the small things slide because the small things when you're out with your friends, if you're having a conversation with with the guys, whatever it might be, there might be a little comment or a joke or something made that isn't a big deal. But it's the start of the slippery slope towards something more significant. And I think what the CNN report really woke people up to was that this isn't just a very extreme small group of individuals doing harmful things. This is much more common for want of a better word than we ever realized and it is your boy the the boyfriend or the the husband or the the guy next door and it's not always obvious. And maybe the better phrasing is that it's rarely obvious. And so actually starting to see those patterns and see that behavior and not stand for it and not just let it slide because it's a joke or whatever it might be. And that's a really hard thing to do. But I think that's it's the duty that we have and again not to kind of expect perfection from everybody every single time but actually just going we can all strive to do better collectively as as as a collective for all of us.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Yeah. I think also um this uh has shown as you said that this is not really an outlier behavior um as we would have liked to believe and also this idea of self-accountability but also holding each other accountable is going to be very crucial because this is very meaningful and very deep work.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

Yeah and I think just to close that loop, I think it's the the individual and collective shadow right it's not to say oh I'm a puritanical saint who has never had a dark thought in my life. That's actually how that stuff gets suppressed and then pops up somewhere else in a in a different form. It's actually going God like it's closer to home than I realize and so I have to hold myself accountable and the people around me accountable to to meet my own shadow and do something differently. Of course absolutely now one last question that I ask all guests uh Jamie is when you look back on some of your hardest moments what would you like to say to your younger self uh to reassure them given what you now know and experience in your life I just know that a younger version of me just wouldn't want to wouldn't have listened to me today and he would have viewed me as this slightly quirky um weird spiritual guy uh and so I if I could get through to him uh what I would probably want to say is that right now I know it seems like there's only one path and that you think that you need to follow it in order to fit in and be accepted and be loved but actually the greatest freedom you'll ever find is by listening to and finding out who you really are and choosing that path every single time beautiful thank you and where can people find you and how do you support people these days yeah um Instagram's probably the best place to find me at JamieClements underscore um I'm shifting as much of my work to in person as possible right now so retreats workshops uh here in London um conferences I do a lot of speaking and and educating I'm speaking at the um masters trauma conference in Oxford later this year which will be an amazing opportunity um what else what else what else I have my online community and app which can all be found from the breathspace.co.uk uh and that's probably enough for now I think there's yeah a lot of places where people can find me but the website and uh Instagram are probably the home for for most things.

SPEAKER_01 49:15

Great thank you for joining me today I appreciate your shares and wisdom thanks Effie. And you guys thank you so much for tuning in and if this episode spoke to you please remember to follow subscribe rate and share because it helps bring trauma informed conversations and education to people who need them the most I'll see you soon. Goodbye guys