Ep. 56: Ted Bundy - The Escalation (Part 2) | Utah, Survivors, and the Pattern Emerges

Part II of our Ted Bundy series follows the moment everything begins to shift.

After a string of disappearances in Washington, Bundy leaves for Utah—where the violence doesn’t stop… it escalates.

As new victims vanish, patterns begin to emerge. For the first time, someone survives. And for the first time, people start to see him.

This episode explores Bundy’s move to Utah, the growing investigation, the bravery of survivor Carol DaRonch, and the mounting suspicion from those closest to him—including Elizabeth Kloepfer.

Because by the end of Part II…
 he’s no longer invisible.

🎧 Part III will cover the arrests, escapes, and the final crimes that would make his name known worldwide.

📓 SHOW NOTES

In Part II, we examine the escalation of Ted Bundy’s crimes following his move from Washington to Utah in 1974.

This episode includes:

•  Bundy’s transition to Utah and enrollment at the University of Utah 
•  Continued contact with Elizabeth Kloepfer while living a double life 
•  The disappearance and murders of multiple young women, including: 
  •  Nancy Wilcox 
  •  Melissa Smith 
  •  Laura Ann Aime 
•  The survival and identification by Carol DaRonch 
•  The disappearance of Debra Kent the same night 
•  Growing investigative patterns and witness descriptions 
•  Elizabeth Kloepfer’s second report to police in 1975 

This episode also includes archival audio of Ted Bundy used for contextual and educational purposes.

📚 SOURCES

•  Rule, Ann. The Stranger Beside Me
•  Michaud, Stephen G. & Aynesworth, Hugh. The Only Living Witness
•  FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin archives 
•  Utah Department of Public Safety records 
•  Court records and trial transcripts 
•  Newspaper archives (1974–1975 case coverage) 

🎧 Audio Source:

•  Archival interview recordings of Ted Bundy
   (Public domain / educational use, commonly referenced in documentary materials and investigative interviews)

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Beneath the ordinary world lies a veil, and behind it, the voices of the lost still whisper.

SPEAKER_04 0:09

We are your guides into the shadows, where true crime meets the paranormal.

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From chilling crimes to haunted histories, we uncover the stories that refuse to rest.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

This is the L of Echoes.

SPEAKER_04 0:38

That's the part people remembered. Not fear, not pain at all. Just a normal moment. A conversation. Because when he approached, he wasn't threatening. He wasn't aggressive. He needed help. And that changes everything. Because now you're not trying to get away. You're trying to be kind. You're trying to do the right thing. And there's nothing in that moment that tells you you shouldn't. But later. That's the moment they all come back to you. The moment they said yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:29

This is episode 56.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

The Ted Bundy Case.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

Part 2. Welcome back to Veil of Echoes, the podcast where true crime meets the unexplained, and where some patterns don't look like anything until you see them more than once.

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Each week, we step into cases that unsettle us. The moments that seem ordinary until they aren't.

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We look at the timeline, the behavior, and the decisions that allow something like this to continue.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

We're your host, I'm Lindsay.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

I'm Zach.

SPEAKER_03 2:05

And I'm Bria. This episode includes discussions of abduction, violence, and murder. Some details may be disturbing. Listener discretion is advised.

SPEAKER_04 2:18

If you choose to follow the show or leave a review, it helps these stories reach further.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

And it helps us continue telling them.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

And as we head into summer, we're working on something new. A space for your stories.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

The experiences that stay with you.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

And we're gonna call it Echoes from the Veil. So if you guys have a story, something unexplainable, or something that never quite made any sense, we want to hear it.

SPEAKER_04 2:46

You can send your stories to us at VeilofEchospodcast at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Or message us directly on TikTok, Instagram, or Facebook at Veil of Echoes Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

We'll be sharing your stories and giving shout-outs to those who trust us with them. We're listening. And before we step into today's case, there's something else we want to try with you.

SPEAKER_04 3:11

We've been talking about giving our listeners a name.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

But we don't want to choose it ourselves.

SPEAKER_04 3:17

We want you guys to decide.

SPEAKER_03 3:20

And we'll explain everything.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

And how you can be a part of it.

SPEAKER_03 3:24

At the end of this episode. But for now, let's begin.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

By the time 1974 moved forward, something had already begun. Not with disappearances, but with something quieter.

SPEAKER_04 3:44

January 1974, Karen Sparks attacked inside her own home.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

She survived, but it didn't connect to anything.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Then the disappearances began.

SPEAKER_04 4:00

Linda Anne Healy Donna Gail Manson Susan Rancourt Roberta Parks Brenda Ball All different lives, different places, but something was already connecting them.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Then June.

SPEAKER_04 4:22

Georgianne Hawkins.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Gone. Just stepped from where she would have been safe. And still nothing that made sense.

SPEAKER_04 4:33

Then July 14th, Lake Samamish State Park. A crowded beach. And still he approached them. Janice Ott Denise Nussland.

SPEAKER_03 4:47

Both taken in broad daylight. Surrounded by people. And no one realized what they were seeing. That's and I remember this is what sucks because um one of the documentaries I was watching, I don't remember if it was Janice or Denise, but this guy remembered seeing he said he remembered seeing Ted going around talking to women on the beach. And then this one girl, I don't know remember if it was Janice or Denise. One of them, he Ted pretty much wasn't taking no for an answer because she just wanted to enjoy her day, but then he said, you know, he was like, I need help, it'll be fast, or whatever. And then the guy who was watching all this saw her like put her head down for a second, like she's thinking, like, why am I doing this? And then she got up and left with him.

SPEAKER_04 5:41

And then at that point, I would have been like, No, there's something wrong with step in.

SPEAKER_03 5:45

But can you not he's like he's it haunts him forever because I mean you're not gonna think, oh, but he's gonna take her and murder. Yeah. You know, but still, like, that's just haunting. But anyway, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

It was a very eerie moment.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

Yes, very and it happened again with um one of the the girls at school. Um we'll get in that too, but like the one of the prin was it the principal? I don't know. One of the work employees there saw the same thing. He was trying to get her to go with him, and she said no, and then she was sitting in the auditorium, and then he saw the um the 17-year-old get up and go out of the auditorium, I guess go and then she disappeared after that. Yeah. Well shit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

And then just as suddenly it stopped. In Washington, the pattern went quiet.

SPEAKER_03 6:43

Not because it ended, but because it moved.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

And while everything in Washington seemed to stop, there was another version of his life that looked completely normal.

SPEAKER_04 6:57

Her name was Elizabeth Klopefer, a single mother working trying to rebuild her life.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

She met him in a bar in Seattle in 1969.

SPEAKER_04 7:11

She wasn't someone who went out often, but that night she did. And he was sitting alone, and she approached him first. And the conversation came easily.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

Yeah, and again. This was the one that walked away from Yeah, she was trying to escape a creepy guy in the bar, and that's when she saw Bundy sitting alone and approached him.

SPEAKER_04 7:38

Negatives don't always make a positive. No, but how like crazy is that?

SPEAKER_02 7:41

I'm just curious to what this other guy looked like that she walked to Bundy for safety.

SPEAKER_04 7:46

I know. Bundy. How much you want to bet the guy that was actually being creepy wasn't actually.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

That's not saying he has no body murder.

SPEAKER_04 7:57

Right, you know, awkward. And this poor lady, she thought she was getting away from the creep. And I'm sorry, but to the people who think he is good looking, I don't see it at all. I don't see it. I don't see it. I don't.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Even for that time.

SPEAKER_04 8:12

My mom thought he was good looking. I'm like, mom, you're crazy. Well, your mom also also said Trump was good looking.

SPEAKER_03 8:18

Oh my god, ew. I know, I make fun of her.

SPEAKER_04 8:20

She's like when he was young, I'm like, that's disgusting. I mean, I when he was younger, he was not bad on the eyes. He really wasn't. If you looked at old, older, younger pictures of his teenage in early 20 years. But after he got out of those years, it started going down the hood like a bird. He didn't age like a fine wine like some of these people do, like Robert Downey Jr., who, you know, back in the early 80s, his first movies, he had a gap in between his front teeth and looked like an absolute dork. Kind of like uh Matt Ryper.

SPEAKER_03 8:51

Yes. That's why he still doesn't smile, even though he got his teeth fixed. I was watching a thing. He still doesn't smile because he's so used to not smiling. I get it.

SPEAKER_04 9:01

I get it.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

My front teeth are fucked up, so I get it. Mm-hmm. But anyway, yeah, but how ironic though.

SPEAKER_04 9:08

That he's like, okay, this creepy guy, but let me go talk to this guy. He seems okay, and then but that's the scary thing.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

He seemed normal, like with all the other victims. I mean, he seemed like a normal dude. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 9:20

Until that's the scary part. Until, you know.

SPEAKER_03 9:24

Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Seems yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

Thought that was crazy. I mean this guy. He's a fucking asshole. Glad he's dead.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:34

I mean, aren't we all glad all murderers like this are dead? Oh, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

I'm just glad that he actually got to the execution part instead of just like dying of a heart attack.

SPEAKER_04 9:45

Oh, like the permanently.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

Yeah, some kind of natural dis like deserved to be executed.

SPEAKER_04 9:51

He was like amongst the work. I mean, they're all awful, but he was like. I think what they should have done is they should have exhumed him and then strung him up and then ripped him limb from limb. Even though he was dead. Still.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

Because by the sound of his tapes, he was expecting most of them to survive. And he was gonna let him like. Why the fuck would you torture somebody and let him go? Like just to believe himself. Exactly. Like go do your own weird shit.

SPEAKER_03 10:18

She fucked him torture. I mean, he did torture.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Oh my god, isn't he the one that had needles in his tank?

SPEAKER_03 10:25

Yeah. Remember he said it was too painful, so he then he started putting him through his abdomen.

SPEAKER_04 10:34

Fucking freaking stupid ass.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

Yeah, but.

SPEAKER_04 10:42

Oh my god. No, and I'm a diabetic.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Yeah. A piercing's different. That that this guy's just like, you know what? I want to feel that oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:53

I don't know why this is completely random. I don't know why I thought about it.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

Say it.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

I remember, I don't know why I'm thinking about it, but something like, oh. I remember I forgot what class I was taking, but we had to do something with different cultures. And there's this one culture that um that um when someone dies, they like uh they like go in the air with them and then they drop them and then like birds eat them.

unknown 11:22

I don't know what it means.

SPEAKER_03 11:24

I don't remember.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

What the fuck? I don't know either. Okay, I gotta look this up.

SPEAKER_04 11:31

I don't know what they throw them up in the air, let them land, and then the birds eat them.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

They like bring them up and up I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

I need to do that part of the other series.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

Culture where weirdest deaths. Yes. Or cultures it's called sky b burial.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Vulture culture.

SPEAKER_03 11:50

It's where corpses are exposed on mountaintops to be consumed by birds of prey, primarily vultures. This ritual returns the body to nature, acting as a final act of charity and serves as a sustainable ecological method in high altitude environments.

SPEAKER_04 12:05

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 12:06

That's actually, I mean, pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Morbidly responsible.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

The deceased's body is carried to a designated remote hilltop, often a specialist called a body carrier. What the fuck?

SPEAKER_02 12:19

Hey, bro, can you go drop him off up there?

SPEAKER_03 12:22

Prepares the body, sometimes chopping limbs or pounding bones mixed with barley f barley flour to ensure birds consume the entire body.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

They like barley, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 12:34

Now, ready then. Vultures are often seen as sacred or sky dancers that help transport the soul, reinforcing the belief that the body is just an empty vessel.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

A vulture is one of my favorite birds. Creepiest looking thing.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

Primarily practiced for religious reasons to honor the dead, it is also environmentally sustainable as the rocky terrain makes burial impossible. I really like the cuckoo barrows. It just came into my head. I mean, it's it's interesting. Different cultures and their, you know, what things they do. Because isn't there some cultures too that leave the body in their house for a while? Yeah, we should do that's interesting to me, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

That's what I was put a part of the fractures of reality here.

SPEAKER_04 13:22

Weird funerals.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

That too. Strange, strange.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

Oh, yeah, I took a death and dying class. That's I of course I would take that class. I've been to a very strange funeral. I ha well, it was one of the elections and I chose to take it. Oh, okay. But I think maybe it was that class. But then there was then we had um I had to make a paper on like why people wear the color black instead. It was interesting. I'm interested in the biggest. I wear black because I'm soulless.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Yeah. Or Johnny Cash, maybe I am.

SPEAKER_04 13:54

Yeah, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:55

Anyways, random.

SPEAKER_04 13:57

I like my black, alright?

SPEAKER_03 13:59

Jackson, sit down.

SPEAKER_04 14:03

You mean 90% of my wardrobe is black.

SPEAKER_03 14:06

Same.

SPEAKER_04 14:08

Dark colors.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

I know I'm trying to break away, it just doesn't work too well.

SPEAKER_04 14:12

I'm sorry, but 90% of your fucking concert shirts are printed on black. You can't get away from it.

SPEAKER_03 14:17

The only thing that sucks is my animals fur gets on. I don't even care anymore. I just wear it. Yeah. You gotta wear it probably. No, but real quick, I'm I'm also excited. I can't believe we have Africa as a country now that listens to us.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

Five combo is awesome. I can only find two of the countries on there, so I don't know if the other ones are just like it is, it is.

SPEAKER_03 14:41

And I want to say thank you again to all of our listeners. Because we are now over 50 countries that listen to us. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 14:50

Be like Hulk Hogan, hell yeah, brother.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Fifty countries, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

That's that's I know we gained like 10 in the last week. That's awesome. That's good.

SPEAKER_04 15:00

We thank you all very much for listening to our dumbasses. I know.

SPEAKER_03 15:04

I promise, yeah, just just stay with us. We're it's fine. We're a little strange, but it's okay.

SPEAKER_04 15:11

We're very strange and unusual. Just like um what's her face from Beetlejuice? I myself am strange and unusual. Yes, yes, yes, I love that movie.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 15:24

If you don't like that movie, you've got problems. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 15:29

I gotta get that Bob Beetlejuice figure they put out on the Beetlejuice.

SPEAKER_03 15:33

Yes, but Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

She described herself as lonely, wanting stability, wanting someone to build a life with. And he gave her that attention, affection, the feelings of being taken care of.

SPEAKER_03 15:59

They became a couple not long after, and for a while it worked. He was present, engaged, part of her daily life, part of her daughter's life.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

Not someone distant, but someone inside their home. But the relationship wasn't stable. He would pull away and come back warm, but attentive.

SPEAKER_04 16:25

And she would stay. Because he was there. He felt real. At one point, they even tried to get married. A license, a plan.

SPEAKER_03 16:37

And then just as quickly, he tore it apart.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

There were moments that didn't make sense. Things she found that that didn't belong. Objects she couldn't explain.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

She found a meat cleaver, surgical gloves, and I also read that she found like a bag of women's underwear. Alrighty then. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

That's what the fuck. Yeah, it's like uh bro.

SPEAKER_03 17:08

But he would always talk his way out of it. That's just how tricky-that's how they're they're good at that. Mm-hmm. Small details that didn't fit with the person she thought she knew.

SPEAKER_04 17:20

And she asked him about them more than once. But every time he had an answer.

SPEAKER_03 17:28

Something reasonable. Something that made sense just enough.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

And the way he said it you believed him because that's what he was good at. Even when they weren't.

SPEAKER_03 17:48

And then the report started. A name Ted. A car like his. And a description that looked familiar. And at some point she saw it. The sketch, the details, and something that didn't sit right.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

By late summer of 1974, she made a call. Reported his name to police. And even then she didn't believe it was really him. Not her Ted. So while investigators were s trying to understand a pattern, he was still there. Working. Talking to her. Being part of her life.

SPEAKER_03 18:43

It's just so sad. Because you can tell she cared, obviously cared about him, but then you don't think just how he turned out. Good God. One of the most notorious serial killers, but you just in her eyes, you can just tell how like defeated she was. Sad. Living as if nothing was happening. While everything else continued, and no one was ready to see him for what he was.

SPEAKER_04 19:10

In August of 1974, Ted Bundy left Washington. He had been accepted into the University of Utah Law School and moved to Salt Lake City, leaving behind the life he had built in Seattle, including Elizabeth Clover and her daughter. He still called her, stayed in contact.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

But in Utah? He wasn't alone.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

He was seeing other women multiple blending into a new life all over again.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

But behind that, something wasn't working. School the structure. The expectations. He struggled.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

Later he would say he realized he didn't measure up, but that other students had something he didn't, and it stayed with him.

SPEAKER_02 20:08

And within weeks, the pattern started again.

SPEAKER_04 20:13

September 1974. A new series of disappearances in a new place with the same outcome.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Nancy Wilcox, 16 years old, last seen walking at night. Melissa Smith, 17, disappeared after leaving a pizza place. Her body was found days later.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

Laura Ann Amy, 17. She left a Halloween party and never made it home. Her case wouldn't be officially linked to him until years later.

SPEAKER_04 20:54

This is the one that they just um Oh, this is the one that they just found out? Yeah, they always had it.

SPEAKER_03 21:03

That it was him, but I think they the DNA they had DNA evidence that finally confirmed it was him.

unknown 21:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:12

The violence became more physical, more direct, more controlled, and less hidden.

SPEAKER_03 21:20

There was no question anymore. This wasn't random.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

And it didn't stay contained. The pattern expanded across cities, across state lines, making it harder to connect.

SPEAKER_03 21:35

Yeah, and um, I'm sorry, I just keep thinking of things. Um I've been posting a lot on our TikTok about Ted Bundy and stuff, and some people like this one girl said that her mom sorts up and down that he tried picking her up one day. There's a few of 'em like that. I'm like, ugh. But then wasn't it well, Devin's grandma said? It was either her or her friend said that he they thought in California.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

They could have swore it was him trying to Something like that, 'cause I mean he was active across fucking quite a few places.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

Could you imagine though, like surviving bugging Ted Bundy?

SPEAKER_04 22:17

I couldn't even imagine getting in a vehicle with him.

SPEAKER_03 22:19

Oh, I know. I thought it was poor girls.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

Oh, and that's the thing. I don't think many people actually survived him.

SPEAKER_03 22:25

No, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

People turned him down, but anybody who explains And I'm sorry, he was a pussy.

SPEAKER_03 22:31

You'd freaking hit him over the head when they weren't looking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

They all are they all had some means to drug them or make them weaker.

SPEAKER_04 22:39

Exactly. Because they knew that if somebody was gonna fight back with them, they weren't gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

They weren't ready to fight. They just wanted to kill and be done. They were torturers.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

Yeah. And that's the thing, like I go back to Ed Kemper. Like he'd pick up these c college girls, but then I it all stems to his mom. So was he doing that just to prepare for his mom? Because I don't think he really wanted to kill like that, like I think it was just so So he could be prepared to actually take a.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

I know, but I'm saying I think the both one girl's yeah, they may I don't know if he just like had something and snapped, but he definitely wanted to kill his grandma.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

He did kill his grandpa. I know, but his grandpa.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Yeah, his grandpa, that was fucked up, but what did he do to his grandpa again?

SPEAKER_04 23:29

Shot him.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Yeah, because he didn't want him to see what he did to his grandma.

SPEAKER_04 23:32

That's right. That guy.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

You shouldn't have killed your grandma. I mean, she was probably just telling you to do what they're doing.

SPEAKER_03 23:40

He talked himself out of it and got it w I'm still amazed by that. Just acted like well, they didn't matter. You're you're you're clean, your record's clean now. Well look what he did.

SPEAKER_04 23:50

And then yep. I mean, there is just I was just watching a few things this morning of these this broth these brothers who had violent histories, who have barricaded themselves in homes and stuff, have got off scot-free. Well, this last time they didn't get off scot-free, they got killed.

SPEAKER_03 24:08

Good.

SPEAKER_04 24:09

Because it's like, why why do we keep letting them out though? Why do we keep repeatedly letting these people out? Just because they show good behavior.

SPEAKER_03 24:16

John Wayne Gacy, for example, him too. They let him look what he in I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 24:21

Just because you show good behavior does not mean that that good behavior is gonna stick outside of a prison because in prison you have a structure.

SPEAKER_03 24:28

Well, not only that, of course, you're gonna do what you can to get out of there.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

The Gacy one was way fucked up.

SPEAKER_03 24:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

He's like, Well, I got away with that, so look what else I can get away with. Yeah. Fucked up. Yeah, it was terrible, absolutely terrible.

SPEAKER_03 24:44

And then his last you can kiss my ass. Oh, I would like to punch him.

SPEAKER_04 24:47

I would've I would have told the executioner, I would have said, Stop right there. I'm going into this room and I'm gonna give him what he wants. Instead of kissing his ass, I'm gonna kill his ass for him. Slowly. And I will make sure it is the worst of the worst pain that you can get from a person.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

Well, you gotta make sure you get a room.

SPEAKER_04 25:09

And then his teeth. And then his teeth, and then pluck his eyeballs out, and then cut his ears off.

SPEAKER_02 25:15

Someone twice his size to sit on him and suffocate him. Twice?

SPEAKER_04 25:18

Oh god, that's gonna be a good thing. No. Choke him, choke him to the point of where he starts to pass out, then stop. Well, that's what he would do. Do it again. He would do that. Kiss my ass. You know what?

SPEAKER_02 25:30

You shouldn't mind.

SPEAKER_04 25:32

I'll do that. But guess what's gonna happen? Right before I'm not gonna kiss your ass. I'm gonna kill your ass, you piece of shit.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

Yes. He's one of the they're all bad, buddy. Oh that girl.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

It just irritates people for no reason.

SPEAKER_03 25:47

And some of them are still not. They're still what, Don Does?

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:51

Yeah. It just irritates me that the justice system will look at somebody and say, oh, well, they've been good in prison for ten years, so they're good. No, they're not. Well, same for um child abuse cases.

SPEAKER_03 26:01

Yeah. That's fine. You know how many children end up getting killed even after like this like that Gabriel um Menendez? Yeah, that the but the.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

Is it the one under the table or under the sink? Or he was like chained up or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 26:17

They put him in a closet and they made him eat like rocks and cat litter and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 26:22

The stepdad that ended up killing him. Yep. That's fucking awful. No, that one was um the I forgot what his name he wrote the child named It. His mom it was a that's a fucked up story. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Yeah, I remember that one too. His mom was like, vaguely remember he was chained up like under a sink or under a table or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 26:40

So then she would um uh enclose him in the bathroom with like strong cat like bleach, strong chemicals, let him like so he was suffoc I don't know she was fucking nuts. That that story is so sad.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Didn't she have like company over too and stuff?

SPEAKER_03 26:54

Or did I think that's it?

SPEAKER_02 26:56

How the fuck could you come in and just look at somebody chained under a table and be like, oh yeah, let's sit down and hang out for a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 27:02

Oh Sam. Yeah, he would I think she would lock him up too and they would eat and he was hungry and he she wouldn't feed him. She would just torture him by s having him sm I don't know. She was fucked.

SPEAKER_04 27:12

But yet they wonder why some of these kids go after their parents.

SPEAKER_03 27:15

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 27:15

I'm sorry, but that's the justice they deserve. If the parents go after their parents because of their what their parents did to him, that's justice served.

SPEAKER_03 27:23

Well, this one thing I was watching on TikTok yesterday, these body camp videos. Um remember? I guess sh I think she was seven and she ended up calling the cops on her mom.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:35

But they opened the door and she's like, Well, why why are you taking my bait like they were taking her out of the house because they wanted to question her, and then the daughter's like, Well, she says she hates me and that she wants to kill me, and she calls me, she's like, Can I is it okay that I cuss and tell you what she was just sad. And then the mom's like, I need to go to my like she could just tell she didn't want her to talk.

SPEAKER_04 27:56

It's fuck There's a couple that I have watched recently of body cam footage of a that's messed up. Well, this one that I watched the other morning was of a husband and a wife, and the wife was the abusive one. And they had it on camera of her beating her 14-year-old child. Jesus. Just beating him. He called the cops on her, and she kept trying to say it, well, it wasn't like I was actually hitting him. He was being disciplined. The officer was like, You ma'am, are a piece of shit. And you wonder why there's kids out there that act the way they do, and it's because of people like you.

SPEAKER_03 28:30

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 28:30

And then he goes on to look at the dad and he goes, Is this your wife? He goes, Yeah. He goes, I would be embarrassed to be married to a bitch like this. I mean, this cop was not holding back, and I was like, Go, cop, go. Like, he was just, I mean, just straight up telling her, you are the a reason why we have these kids that act up the way they do. Exactly. He goes, You want your kids to be better than you. Right. And it's like And she was just like, Well, well, and he goes, I don't want your damn excuses. He goes, obviously, your your husband's a pussy over here because he won't even stand up to you. Like he literally was like, Your husband's a pussy because he won't even stand up to you.

SPEAKER_03 29:09

I know.

SPEAKER_04 29:10

I'm just like, those are the moments that I love when the cops come up and they're just like, I'm I give two no fucks and I'm gonna tell you exactly how it is.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's it's sad.

SPEAKER_04 29:22

That's that's the part that makes me want to be a cop is so I can go up to these fucking, you know, child abusers and tell them what I think of them. And be able to say it.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 29:32

Because, you know, cops are allowed to do that. They can say what they want to say.

SPEAKER_03 29:37

I know, and the other thing I was thinking that it was Gabriel Fren Fernandez. Fernandez. Um it's just so sad. Because I think the teacher called in on him because she saw he had marks on him and stuff, and like I think a few weeks or a month, I don't remember how it was before he died, he even made still made like a photo of like I love you, ma'am. I love you, ma. It's off yes sucking.

SPEAKER_04 30:04

And the DFS caseworkers on that, which there was like what five fucked up. Five or six of them? Yes. There was only one that actually reported any sort of bruising on him. And even she was like, I should have reported more.

SPEAKER_03 30:19

Or I keep thinking of all these, or an elderly abuse. I was watching this video yesterday of this caretaker forced, I guess. This caretaker forced this the old man to run across the neighborhood in his wet diaper because she I guess he did something she didn't like, and that was his punishment. And then this guy found him wandering the neighborhood, and then he was trying to get him back home, and then the caretaker's like, mind your own business, Mama, like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 30:48

And at that point, I would have been in a physical altercation with the caregiver. If you can look, if you can look at a child in the face and hurt him, an animal in the face and hurt him, or an elderly person in the face, you do not deserve to be on this planet. No. You do not do that to the elderly. You do you don't do it to children. You don't do it to animals, especially children and animals when they have no voice. No. It's like, what the fuck is wrong with you people?

SPEAKER_03 31:17

It's sad.

SPEAKER_04 31:18

Like, you're the ones that need to have the lobotomies performed on you to figure out what the fuck is wrong with your crosshairs in your fucking brain. But for the first time, something didn't go as planned. A mistake. A moment he couldn't control.

SPEAKER_03 31:37

And for the first time, someone got away.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

November 1974. Something changed. For the first time, he made a mistake. November 8th.

SPEAKER_04 31:54

A shopping mall in Murray, Utah. An 18-year-old Carol Duranche approached by a man claiming to be a police officer.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

He tells her someone tried to break into her car. Ask her to come with him to file a report. Nothing about it felt wrong.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

He needed help.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

She gets in, but something starts to feel off. The route doesn't make sense. And then he tries to handcuff her.

SPEAKER_04 32:35

She fights, opens the door, and runs. She gets away. Good for her. Fuck it, eh.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

For the first time, someone could describe him.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

A face. A voice. And a man pretending to be something he wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

That same night, just hours later, Deborah Kent disappears.

SPEAKER_03 33:05

Yeah, this is her. This is her. Where um Yeah, one of the school employees, he was trying to get her to help him with something, and then um, oh yeah, because she asked him, Well, why don't you why don't we get some of the guys to help you with it? And then he's like, oh no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_04 33:22

Like right there. Right there should have been your indication of, oh no, I don't want to fuck with this.

SPEAKER_03 33:26

And then she went back into the auditorium or whatever, and that's when she saw Deborah can't get up, and then then she disappeared. And that haunts her. But like you're not gonna think like, oh.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

No, no, that's the issue.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

But a high school parking lot after a school event. She never makes it home.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

Two events at the same night.

SPEAKER_04 33:53

One survivor. One disappearance. And still not enough to fully stop him.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

I just want to know what's going on in his b like, how did he just did he just randomly oh I'm gonna go to this school? No, I'm gonna go watch them all. Oh, I'm gonna go like what it what are they what are they seem like it because Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

Did any of them really look alike? Were there like similar hairs?

SPEAKER_03 34:18

They were all brunettes. For the most part, all brunettes.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

Well, I don't know. It looks like the location just seem random.

SPEAKER_03 34:26

Yeah, he liked the brunettes. But yeah, I don't I don't know what it just made me wonder, like and he just he just I don't know, like he how he figured out where he was gonna go next.

SPEAKER_04 34:39

But now there was something different. A description, a pattern starting to take shape, and people were beginning to see it. Just not fast enough.

SPEAKER_03 34:56

After November 1974, things started to change. Not all at once, but enough to be noticed.

SPEAKER_04 35:07

A survivor. A description. A man approaching women pretending to be something he wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

For the first time, people started connecting it. And miles away, there was someone else starting to see it too.

SPEAKER_03 35:27

Elizabeth Clover. Because now, it wasn't just one place. It was happening again.

SPEAKER_04 35:36

The same patterns, the same details, the same name. And this time, it was harder to ignore.

SPEAKER_02 35:46

In 1975, she reached out again, gave them his name. Again.

SPEAKER_03 35:56

Not because she was sure, but because she couldn't ignore it anymore.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

And now it wasn't just one tip.

SPEAKER_04 36:06

There were other witnesses, descriptions, a man named Ted, a Volkswagen.

SPEAKER_03 36:14

The same story, repeating.

SPEAKER_02 36:17

His name was on a list. One of many. But now it stayed there. And slowly it moved closer to the top. The pieces were starting to come together.

SPEAKER_04 36:33

Not clearly, not fast enough. But enough to create pressure.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

And whether he knew it or not, things were closing in.

SPEAKER_04 36:44

The pattern was no longer invisible. And for the first time, he was getting close to being seen. So he moved again.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

The issue is now is can we pentagon it? Can we can we follow through and maintain our re reputation as law enforcement officers? And I'll tell you, as long as they attempt to keep their heads in the sand about me, there's gonna be people turning up in canyons and there are gonna be people being shot in Salt Lake City because the police there aren't willing to accept what I think they know, and they know that I didn't do these things.

SPEAKER_03 37:27

That voice was the same one. People trusted.

SPEAKER_04 37:32

So do you think Elizabeth knew deep down, or was it impossible for her to see it? What do you guys think?

SPEAKER_03 37:39

I think she knew deep down.

SPEAKER_04 37:41

I do too.

SPEAKER_03 37:41

I mean she called on him three times.

SPEAKER_04 37:43

And she was already questioning it when this the items were starting to appear in the house out of nowhere. Like one, I would question a meat cleaver.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

Didn't she move with him three times or was it two times? She didn't move with him. I thought she did one of the times. She stayed in Washington. And that's where he met her?

SPEAKER_03 38:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 38:05

As he got in um accepted in law school.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

So I guess that when they got together the first time, she was like hearing the stuff over the news about these patterns coming together. The women were busy.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

One of her friends was talking her. I mean, she was talking and they talked her, they both talked each other into it. You need a call. Like, this is something.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

That's what I was wondering, because then she noticed the pattern starting to happen again. Is that when she called the second time or the first time?

SPEAKER_03 38:34

Well, yeah, because then he was in Colorado and then she was seeing on the same thing. Same car, same like obvious.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Yeah, so maybe deep down she definitely knew something, but like after they first got together, you think she knew then?

SPEAKER_03 38:48

Yeah. Well, when she first got I don't think so, no, no, no, no. But it's whenever they started the crimes were happening, yes. That's because that's when she saw his sketch and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Mm-hmm. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 39:02

Because it says right here, things started to get strange in 1974 after news reports surfaced of murders and rapes of two women in the area. The name Ted was being mentioned by witnesses as well as a Volkswagen like the one Bundy drove. Elizabeth was suspicious but reluctant to believe that Bundy was capable of murder. When she questioned him about some strange behaviors, like when she found a meat cleaver on his desk. I was about to say, Why in the fuck are you putting on your damn desk? A surgical glove in his coat pocket or drove hundreds of miles to Colorado one night to distress from work. He used his intelligence and charm to talk his way out of it. Eventually she made the difficult decision to betray the man she loved and go to the police. They didn't think Bundy was the killer, and she stayed with him and never told him she'd gone to the authorities.

SPEAKER_02 39:54

So, okay, just out of nowhere. I come home. You're at work. I mean, I come home from work ten hours from a day. You're just here with the kids all day, and I'm like, hey honey, I love you, but I gotta drive to Colorado to get a stress relief.

SPEAKER_03 40:10

To get a stress Colorado to get a stress relief from work. Like, go the fuck outside and take a walk.

SPEAKER_04 40:16

Go outside and smoke a toy, bro.

SPEAKER_02 40:18

Exactly. It's like Go outside and street like St. Louis. What the fuck do you mean?

SPEAKER_03 40:27

That's just he was a charmer. I mean, he knew what to say.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

I I just I don't know how, like, what what did he say though? That's what I'm curious.

SPEAKER_04 40:36

Like, how do you There's this really nice bar in Colorado? I'm gonna go. I'll see you later. I'll be back tomorrow around noon.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

That'd be like me telling you, listen, I know I just got off work, but I gotta drive the five hours to Kentucky to get that pizza because that's the only thing I'm craving right now. I have to go to Lexington because I need that pizza. If I don't get pizza from that place, it won't be a good day.

SPEAKER_03 41:00

Poor lady. I don't know. I feel so bad for her, but God needs to be a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

I think I could justify driving to get pizza five hours away before I maybe a ten-hour trip or the round one, but going to Colorado for the night? Like, bro, it's not gonna be for the night for one. And a meat cleaver on your desk. What state did he live in then? Washington? Yeah. Okay, yeah, it'd still take a minute. Because he was born in Vermont. That was where I said it's gonna take a minute. It's not like Washington City and like fucking Yeah. He just said, honey.

SPEAKER_04 41:31

He just said, fuck it, I don't care anymore. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

I know I just spent eight hours away from you, but I gotta go call her.

SPEAKER_04 41:36

We need to spend another 12 hours.

SPEAKER_03 41:39

She she knew deep down, obviously. She had to, but nobody wants to. If you love someone that much, like you trust them, you're like, no, maybe it's just cool. I mean, I'm sure you gotta be put in her position, you know, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:50

Always given the benefit of the doubt.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

But when it comes to the case, for calling them three times. It took her them fucking cops. Oh, they pushed it off the first time on it.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

It'd be a well, yeah. I mean, especially if she's right after she saw the sketch and heard the name that was being passed around to the city.

SPEAKER_03 42:09

Like, come on.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

So, it's not like she saw the sketch, heard the name, saw the car, and she'd be like, No.

SPEAKER_03 42:17

I'm seeing Volkswagen beetles everywhere constantly.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

And they've been yellow. They've never been like red, they've been yellow. Yeah, and his was beige, but still. Because I saw two yellow ones. One had the eyelashes, one didn't have no eyelashes.

SPEAKER_04 42:30

I hate when they do that shit so much. I hate it. Stop putting your eyelashes on your fucking beetles. Stop. Stop.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

If I got one that put the little horn on it like the what what beetle is that?

SPEAKER_04 42:45

Oh, yeah. The straight one that comes off instead of the separate one. Yo, you give me put eyelashes on my beetle to make it look girly. Yeah. The beetle already looks stupid as it is, alright?

SPEAKER_03 42:55

We've been seeing beetles now. Like, what is going on?

SPEAKER_02 42:58

We're gonna get murdered by a Bundy. Oh god. And a buggy. I'm sorry, but the beautiful stupidest thing ever. What is the supplemental?

SPEAKER_04 43:08

It's like it's like when you see cars nowadays that like sports cars that have like the three scratches going down them to make them look, you know, tough. I'm like to make them look tough. If you want to make them look tough, then then legitly scratch your car, not like sticker on. I'm just like, what what what is this scratch thing for? Why are we doing these scratches? The werewolf attack in your car. Like what? Did a velociraptor try to grab it or something? And you know.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

That's what Lane would think.

SPEAKER_03 43:37

Oh yeah, werewolf.

SPEAKER_04 43:39

Werewolf! Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

I'm gonna get some claw marks on his side of the car.

SPEAKER_03 43:43

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

It's like what happened?

SPEAKER_03 43:45

That'd be funny.

SPEAKER_04 43:46

It was the werewolf, Lane.

SPEAKER_03 43:47

It was the werewolf, Lane. Aww. Yeah, he loves his werewolves.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

Yes, he does. By early 1975, the pressure was building. Descriptions? Witnesses. Names starting to repeat. For the first time, but it wasn't invisible anymore.

SPEAKER_04 44:11

And then he leaves Utah. Moves again.

SPEAKER_03 44:16

Yeah, because they're starting to get on his ass. Idiot. This time to Colorado. A new place. A new beginning. The same pattern.

SPEAKER_02 44:31

And in Colorado? It continues.

SPEAKER_03 44:35

More disappearances.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

More victims.

SPEAKER_03 44:38

More evidence. Left behind. Enough that it couldn't stay hidden.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Because this time it doesn't stay quiet.

SPEAKER_04 44:48

This time it leads somewhere. To an arrest. To a name attached to everything.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

And to a truth that's worse than anyone expected. Because by the time it ends, the story isn't about what he did. It's about who he really was. So do you guys think someone like him can be recognized in time, or do you they always seem normal at first?

SPEAKER_04 45:20

Unfortunately, normal at first.

SPEAKER_03 45:22

Yeah. Definitely. Well, yeah, that's that's the gotcha bitch. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 45:27

Yeah, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_03 45:29

And I want to know he obviously was undiagnosed with something. He had s obviously mental something.

SPEAKER_02 45:36

Because he always thought he was gonna outsmart people, and there for a minute, like only thing that he was doing that really outsmart him was moving, so they couldn't connect him to it. They couldn't really question him because they didn't know where he was. Right. That's about it. Right. It's not like the evidence wasn't stacking up, it's not like it wasn't pointing in his direction. It's just he moved.

SPEAKER_03 45:55

You know, he was not that smart.

SPEAKER_02 45:57

He wasn't.

SPEAKER_03 45:58

Because you think everything he did was pretty basic. They're starting to get on to me. Maybe I should not keep using my name Ted. And maybe I should get a new car.

SPEAKER_04 46:08

But he still kept using Om Ted and used his like a Volkswagen Beetle is like that's that's the most common car of the 70s. It's the Beetle.

SPEAKER_03 46:18

I know. But like it's I mean, I every time I see it, I think of Ted Bundy.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

All his arguments in some of those interviews I watched during his court trials.

SPEAKER_03 46:26

It's like that's gonna be fun to make fun of me.

SPEAKER_02 46:30

What? None of them really even made sense. It just seems like he was just trying to argue to get people to like him. Like, you guys are pretty much just wanting to murder people.

SPEAKER_03 46:40

He was you did? And he was so shock like he legit he was so shocked that they gave him the death penalty.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

Oh yeah, he walked in fucking what over an hour late or something to one of the court dates and act like What the death penalty?

SPEAKER_04 46:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

Oh yeah, he was he was a character. I'm glad he's gone too, because he was just a fucking D-ba himself. Yes, he was.

SPEAKER_04 47:02

Stupid ass but. And that concludes part two of the Ted Bundy case.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

The escalation.

SPEAKER_04 47:14

The moment everything started to come into focus.

SPEAKER_03 47:19

And before we move on, there's something we want to share with you.

SPEAKER_04 47:24

Every podcast has a name for their listeners.

SPEAKER_02 47:27

But we don't want to choose it for you.

SPEAKER_03 47:31

Because this is what we're building here. It's not just ours, it's yours too.

SPEAKER_04 47:38

So we want you to decide.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

What should we call you?

SPEAKER_03 47:44

Oh, do you guys have any ideas? Like I don't know. I want them to decide, but like we gotta have a poll. But like, I don't know. There's veil walkers, there's Oh, that's cool. The echo I don't know. We need ideas, guys. We need ideas. You guys need a cool name.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

Yeah, maybe if you give us a few suggestions and the ones with the most likes, we'll take it from there and then start a poll on that one, like take the your creepiest suggestions. Yes. Yeah, something that goes with the goes with the flow.

SPEAKER_03 48:17

Yeah, something that just like veil of echoes. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 48:20

But makes you feel heard.

SPEAKER_03 48:23

Yes. Definitely. Yeah, because like yeah, like we said earlier. Yeah, you're a part of this, so send us your ideas.

SPEAKER_04 48:33

Comments, messages, or even in a review.

SPEAKER_03 48:37

And when we do choose the name, we'll be shouting you out right here on the show. And one more thing.

SPEAKER_04 48:45

We're starting monthly giveaways.

SPEAKER_03 48:48

For those of you who are supporting us, sharing the show, leaving reviews, engaging with us, we see you.

SPEAKER_02 48:55

We will be choosing multiple winners every month.

SPEAKER_04 48:58

And featuring some of you here on the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 49:02

Because this is just the beginning. But yeah, I think we're gonna start this in May. So next month we're gonna start this. So we'll have like some cool little or have some ideas in mind. Maybe like cool little contests, like if you share, like, leave a review or something, and that puts you in a drawing, and then we'll have like theory, what's your best theory, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

Yes, even a few like like a questionnaire thing. Trivia. Yeah. Yeah, that'll like a few trivia things.

SPEAKER_03 49:31

But yeah, this the boxes that we would like to send out is pretty cool, and I hope you guys would like too, but we have some cool ideas. In our next episode, we leave this case behind and travel overseas.

SPEAKER_02 49:46

To an island just off the coast of Venice, Italy.

SPEAKER_03 49:51

Abandoned and left behind for decades. Where thousands were sent, but never left. This is the story of Poveglia Island and what may still be there. Until then, keep your ears open.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

And the veil closed.