Ep. 68: Columbine High School Part 3: The Aftermath | We Are Columbine

In the final chapter of our Columbine series, we explore what happened after the gunfire stopped.

As first responders cautiously entered the school, survivors remained trapped inside classrooms, parents desperately searched for answers, and the nation watched in horror as events unfolded live on television.

We examine the rescue of Patrick Ireland, remembered by many as "The Boy in the Window," the heroic actions and tragic death of teacher Dave Sanders, the victims whose lives were stolen on April 20, 1999, and the lasting impact Columbine left on America.

We also explore the myths, misconceptions, and unanswered questions that followed the tragedy, as well as how the Columbine community found the strength to move forward under a message that would become a symbol of resilience:

We Are Columbine.

This episode contains discussions of mass violence, murder, suicide, trauma, and the deaths of minors. Listener discretion is strongly advised.

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Monthly Listener Giveaways

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Additional giveaways are coming soon, including:

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Music & Sound Design

Original music, theme music, trailer music, and sound design by Dave Daddario.

🎵 YouTube: youtube.com/@davedaddario

Audio Used

• Historical news coverage of the Columbine High School massacre
• Columbine-related emergency dispatch audio
• Patti Nielson 911 call excerpts
• Patrick Ireland rescue news coverage excerpts
• Historical news audio used for commentary, educational, and documentary purposes
• Original music and sound design by Dave Daddario
• Additional editing, production, and sound design by Veil of Echoes

Sources

• Jefferson County Sheriff's Office Columbine Report
• FBI Columbine Investigation Files
• Columbine by Dave Cullen
• Walking in Daniel's Shoes by Tom Mauser
• Survivor and Witness Testimony Archives
• CNN Columbine Coverage Archive
• Denver Post Columbine Archive
• History Channel Columbine Resources
• Columbine Memorial Foundation Resources
• National Center for Victims of Crime Resources

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Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:00

Beneath the ordinary world lies a veil, and behind it the voices of the lost still whisper.

SPEAKER_08 0:09

We are your guides into the shadows, where true crime meets the paranormal.

SPEAKER_03 0:15

From chilling crimes to haunted histories, we uncover the stories that refuse to rest. This is the mechos.

SPEAKER_08 0:35

The gunfire had stopped, but nobody knew why. Throughout Columbine High School, students remained trapped inside classrooms, teachers barricaded doors, parents gathered outside police lines, desperately searching for their children. Inside the library. This is episode 68.

SPEAKER_05 1:53

Columbine High School.

SPEAKER_06 2:00

Welcome back to Veil of Echoes, a cinematic true crime and paranormal podcast where we explore the mysteries, tragedies, and unexplained events that continue to echo through time.

SPEAKER_08 2:12

From infamous crimes to unsolved disappearances.

SPEAKER_05 2:15

To haunted locations, paranormal encounters, and the stories that refuse to be forgotten.

SPEAKER_06 2:23

We're your host, I'm Lindsay.

SPEAKER_05 2:26

I'm Zach.

SPEAKER_06 2:27

And I'm Bria. Before we jump back into Columbine, we wanted to take a moment to thank everyone who participated in our very first monthly listener giveaway.

SPEAKER_08 2:37

And we're excited to announce that our first two winners are Jen and Rhonda.

SPEAKER_05 2:43

Congratulations. We'll be reaching out to both of you soon. And we're planning to have your giveaway packages shipped to you by the middle of June.

SPEAKER_06 2:51

Yeah, this was fun. I'm excited to see um who we're able to send it to next. So please, please, please leave a written review, screenshot it to us.

SPEAKER_05 3:02

Send it in.

SPEAKER_06 3:03

Yes. Each package includes exclusive Veil of Echoes items, including our collector tarot cards that ended up turning out really cool.

SPEAKER_05 3:14

Very nice.

SPEAKER_06 3:15

Yep. And other goodies inspired by the world of the podcast.

SPEAKER_08 3:20

And if you didn't win this month, don't worry. We'll be doing another giveaway soon, and there will be plenty more chances to participate.

SPEAKER_05 3:29

We'll also wanted to give everyone a quick update on our listener name poll. We've decided to leave a voting open just a little longer so more of you can weigh in.

SPEAKER_08 3:39

We'll officially reveal and adopt our listener name during the weekend of June 13th to the 14th.

SPEAKER_06 3:46

So keep an eye on our social media pages and make sure your voice is heard, please.

SPEAKER_08 3:52

And as always, if you have a paranormal experience, true crime encounter, near death experience, stalking encounter, or any unexplained story you'd like to share, send it to us for our upcoming listener series, Echoes from the Vale.

SPEAKER_05 4:11

You can email us at Vale of Echoes Podcast at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_08 4:17

Now, let's return to Columbine.

SPEAKER_06 4:22

This is Columbine High School Part 3, The Aftermath. After leaving the library at approximately 1136 a.m., Eric Harris and Dylan Clybold had already carried out the deadliest portion of their attack. Ten people had been killed inside the library. Dozens more had been wounded. Yet the attack was not over. As survivors cautiously waited beneath tables and behind shelves, unsure if the gunmen would return, Eric and Dylan continued moving through the school.

SPEAKER_08 4:59

Back inside the hallways, the pair entered the science area. At one point, they started a fire inside an empty storage closet. A teacher hiding nearby was eventually able to extinguish it before it spread. They fired into empty classrooms. They moved through hallways that only minutes earlier had been filled with students rushing to escape. Now Mucha Columbine was eerily quiet.

SPEAKER_05 5:28

At 11 44 AM, security cameras capture, them returning to the cafeteria. This moment is important because it shows something investigators would later struggle to understand. Their original plan had been centered around the large propane bombs they had planted inside the cafeteria. The bombs were supposed to explode during lunch. The shootings were never intended to be the main event. The bombs were. And now, almost forty minutes after the attack began, Harris and Clybold appeared frustrated that their plan had failed.

SPEAKER_06 6:11

Yup. Video footage shows Eric crouching near the cafeteria staircase and firing at one of the propane devices in an apparent attempt to trigger an explosion. But nothing happened. Dylan approached one of the bombs and examined it. At one point, Eric casually picked up a drink left behind in the cafeteria and took a sip. It's one of the most unsettling details of the entire day. Around them sat abandoned tables, backpacks, food trays, and the remains of a lunch period that had ended in catastrophe. And yet, for a brief moment, the footage almost feels ordinary. Until you remember what had already happened. And what was still about to happen.

SPEAKER_08 7:01

Still determined to cause an explosion, Dylan lit a Molotov cocktail and threw it towards one of the propane bombs. This time part of the fuel night. A fire briefly erupted, but within minutes, the school's sprinkler system activated and extinguished the flames. Once again, the bombs failed. The mash casualty event they had spent months planning never occurred.

SPEAKER_05 7:32

After leaving the cafeteria, Eric and Dylan wandered through the hallways. They fired shots into walls, into ceilings, into empty rooms. Students and teachers remained hidden behind locked doors, unsure whether help was coming or whether the shooters were searching for more victims. The attacks had transformed from calculated violence into something that felt aimless, almost directionless, as if the two teenagers who had spent more than a year planning this moment no longer knew what came next.

SPEAKER_06 8:14

Just after noon, they returned to the library. The room that had become the center of the tragedy. By then, many survivors had escaped through an emergency exit. But not everyone. Patrick Ireland remained unconscious. Lisa Cruz was still severely injured and unable to move. Neither knew Eric and Dylan had returned.

SPEAKER_08 8:42

At approximately 12.02 p.m., gunfire was exchanged between police officers outside and the shooters inside the library. No one was struck. Then gradually, the school felt silent. By 12.05 p.m., the gunfire had stopped.

SPEAKER_05 9:04

Three minutes later, at approximately 12.08 p.m., Eric Harris and Dylan Clayball ended their lives inside the library. Then I just don't understand. Why carry out this whole mass fucking murder extinction? Like, just do it in the first place. Like I don't I don't condone suicide and I definitely don't condone homicide, but if you're gonna thoughts of harming someone else, just end it then and there.

SPEAKER_08 9:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:36

Practice on yourself so we don't have to worry about other people.

SPEAKER_06 9:39

Yeah, I don't know. It's such a It is.

SPEAKER_05 9:41

That's out of I don't even know how to say that's just sick. Like true sickness.

SPEAKER_06 9:46

Just for you guys to kill yourselves.

SPEAKER_05 9:48

Exactly. Like for for what?

SPEAKER_06 9:50

Just just kill yourselves first. I don't get it.

SPEAKER_05 9:53

And while they got what they wanted, it's still talked about and still remembered. Everyone still mentions their names.

SPEAKER_08 9:59

Yep.

unknown 10:00

I know.

SPEAKER_05 10:01

That's the worst part about tragedy, is like it's it's supposed to be membered to honor those that were taken in it, not to remember those that caused it. And sadly, it's you got sickos out there that worship people like this.

SPEAKER_06 10:16

Yes. I yes. It's disgusting.

SPEAKER_05 10:19

And you got these sicko's that worship somebody else.

SPEAKER_08 10:21

Just like a kid that was recently arrested for attempting a school shooting, and he said that these two were like his inspiration for it or something. I think there's been quite a few.

SPEAKER_05 10:31

Because yeah, like last episode we talked about next year on the date will be this A Tuesday that it happened, so it 27 years ago. So who knows what's gonna come about. I can only imagine these sickos, who's ever got what going on in their head.

SPEAKER_06 10:48

Well, and the journals that uh Eric and Dylan wrote, I mean, they're destroyed now, but I know the transcripts and like the recordings and stuff. It's just Just plans and maps and ideas and But the again, well they showed all these signs though prior. That's what I don't understand. Like they were writing about it.

SPEAKER_05 11:11

A whole what, 18 months.

SPEAKER_06 11:13

A whole so there were sh signs.

SPEAKER_05 11:15

So they had a whole school year and six months to be like boop boop boop boop. And school year's only ten months, so it was like two of part of a school year, a full school year, and then it happened the school year after that.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 11:27

So yeah, there was time for somebody to get them help, and everybody's like, Oh, they're just writing, you're just expressing their feelings. Yeah, their feelings are I feel like they need to be put down like fucking rabbage animals.

SPEAKER_08 11:38

Mm-hmm. Yep. Pieces of shit.

SPEAKER_05 11:44

Indeed, like what the fuck.

SPEAKER_06 11:51

For nearly fifty minutes, Columbine High School had been consumed by violence. Now there was silence. But outside, nobody knew the attack was over. Parents were still waiting, students were still trapped, teachers were still hiding. And in one science classroom, Dave Sanders was still fighting for his life. While silence had finally fallen over Columbine High School, nobody outside knew it. Police officers couldn't be certain the shooters were dead. Investigators feared there could be additional gunmen, and reports of bombs throughout the school complicated every decision being made. For first responders, the nightmare was far from over.

SPEAKER_08 12:43

Outside the school, terrified parents gathered behind police barricades. Many had rushed to Columbine after hearing reports of a shooting on the television or over the radio. Some had already reunited with their children, others had not. And for those parents, every passing minute felt unbearable. Rumor spread constantly, conflicting information circulated. Nobody seemed to know exactly who was alive, who was injured, or who was still trapped inside.

SPEAKER_06 13:18

I couldn't imagine being in that situation. I'm so sorry for what they had to go through.

SPEAKER_05 13:25

Yeah. Because you're sitting there at work or something, and all of a sudden news comes across that your school's being shot up. You're like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_06 13:35

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:38

Students who had escaped the school were transported to nearby Lee Wood Elementary School. There, they were questioned by investigators, checked by medical personnel, and eventually reunited with their family members. But not every family got answers. Some parents continue waiting for children who never arrived. At one point, families were reportedly told another bus was coming. Some clung desperately to that hope. But the bus never arrived.

SPEAKER_06 14:17

Inside the library, Patrick Ireland was still alive. Earlier in the attack, he had been shot multiple times. For hours he drifted in and out of consciousness, unable to fully understand what had happened around him. Unable to understand that the attack had already ended.

SPEAKER_08 14:38

Somehow, Patrick began crawling, injured, disoriented, partially paralyzed on one side of his body. He slowly made his way towards the library windows. Outside, television cameras were broadcasting live coverage of the Columbine to millions of viewers across America.

SPEAKER_05 14:58

Then, at approximately 2 38 p.m., viewers watching live television witness something unforgettable.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Now look, we're watching students. Look, there's a bloody student right there in the window.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

We are trying to see exactly where the SWAT team members are trying to get to, but as Bertha mentioned, you can see somebody in the window there. At this point, we don't know if it's a student. Oh the person is obviously trying to flag them down, trying to get their attention. I'm not sure if we can get uh any video of the we don't A figure appeared in one of the library windows.

SPEAKER_05 15:33

Covered in blood, barely able to stand. Patrick Ireland had reached the window.

SPEAKER_06 15:41

That poor guy. God that sucks. Because he's stupid assholes. He stretched himself through the opening. Below him, SWAT officers stood on top of an emergency vehicle attempting to reach him. Patrick appeared to lose his balance. And before anyone could stop him, he fell. His body crashed into the roof of the vehicle below.

SPEAKER_08 16:07

The image instantly became one of the defining photographs of Columbine. Many people would later remember him simply as the boy in the window. For millions watching at home, it was the first visible sign that survivors were still alive inside the school.

SPEAKER_05 16:26

But while Patrick's rescue was unfolding, another rescue effort was desperately underway elsewhere in the building. One that would end very differently. In a silenced classroom, teacher David Sanders continued fighting for his life.

SPEAKER_06 16:47

After being shot earlier in the attack while helping students escape, Sanders had been moved into a classroom. Students used shirts, towels, and anything else they could find to slow the bleeding. Some took turns applying pressure to his wounds. Others prayed. Others simply tried to keep him awake. For hours they waited for help.

SPEAKER_08 17:12

At one point, students placed a sign in the classroom window. It read, One bleeding to death. They hoped someone outside would see it. They hoped help would finally arrive.

SPEAKER_05 17:27

Eventually, SWAT officer reached the room. Students were evacuated. A paramedic was finally able to assess Sanders. But it was too late. After hours of blood loss, Dave Sanders was pronounced dead. He was 47 years old and the only teacher killed during the Columbine massacre.

SPEAKER_06 17:57

For many survivors, Dave Sanders wasn't just a teacher. He was the reason they were alive. His final actions that day had been spent guiding students away from danger, trying to save as many lives as possible, even at the cost of his own. As the school was finally secured, the true scope of what had happened began to emerge. For hours, confusion had dominated the response. Rumors spread, death tolls fluctuated, and families waited desperately for answers. But by the morning of April 21st, investigators began confirming what Columbine had lost.

SPEAKER_08 18:41

The official death toll would eventually include 12 students and one teacher. Fourteen lives if you include the two perpetrators.

SPEAKER_09 18:50

Yeah, they don't deserve it.

SPEAKER_08 18:51

They don't deserve it.

SPEAKER_03 18:52

We don't include it.

SPEAKER_08 18:53

We here at Vale of Echoes, we do not believe in these perpetrators, and we firmly believe that they are burning in hell. Yep. And in the years that followed, the tragedy would continue to claim victims. The youngest victim was just 14 years old. The oldest was teacher Dave Sanders, who was only forty-seven.

SPEAKER_05 19:18

Today, we want to take a moment to remember them. Not as victims, but as people. Students, friends, sons, daughters, a teacher. Human beings whose stories deserve far more chapters than they were given.

SPEAKER_06 19:42

Rachel Scott, seventeen years old, a creative and compassionate young woman whose faith and kindness would later inspire millions. She was killed outside the west entrance of the school.

SPEAKER_08 19:57

Daniel Robaugh, fifteen years old, killed near the west staircase while trying to escape the attack.

SPEAKER_05 20:08

Dave Sanders, teacher, coach, father, hero. Shot while helping students reach safety. His actions save lives.

SPEAKER_06 20:24

Kyle Velasquez, 16 years old, known for his gentle nature and love of computers. He was the first student killed inside the library.

SPEAKER_08 20:35

Stephen Kernau, 14 years old. A freshman who loves Star Wars and had dreamed of becoming a Navy pilot.

SPEAKER_05 20:45

Cassie Bernal, 17 years old. A daughter, a friend, and one of the names most closely associated with Columbine.

SPEAKER_06 20:58

Isaiah Scholz, 18 years old, a talented athlete who dreamed of a future in sports.

SPEAKER_08 21:06

Matthew Ketcher, 16 years old, known for his sense of humor and his love for the outdoors.

SPEAKER_05 21:15

Lauren Townsend, 18 years old, an honor student, athlete and musician. His future was filled with promise.

SPEAKER_06 21:28

John Tomlin, 16 years old, remembered by friends as kind, thoughtful, and fiercely loyal.

SPEAKER_08 21:36

Kelly Fleming, 16 years old, a shy and gifted writer who loved books and storytelling.

SPEAKER_05 21:45

Daniel Mauser, 15 years old. Curious, intelligent, and remembered for his courage in the final moments of his life.

SPEAKER_06 21:57

And Cory DePuder. Seventeen years old, the final victim killed in the library, a young man remembered for his kindness and quiet strength.

SPEAKER_08 22:10

And while many survived that day, survival did not mean the story ended. The wounds left by Columbine extended be far beyond April 20th, 1999.

SPEAKER_05 22:25

In the years that followed, survivors battled post-traumatic stress disorder. Families grieved unimaginable losses. And some who escaped the school physically would continue carrying the emotional weight of that day for decades.

SPEAKER_06 22:44

Yeah, that's that's that's so sad.

SPEAKER_05 22:46

And survivor's guilt has to be the worst. There's no like it's not your fault. Like, it's not your fault it happened. It's not your fault you're survived, it's not your fault. They chose who they chose. Like, people are sick. You can't control the world. You just have to learn to fight against it.

SPEAKER_06 23:01

Exactly. Which that's just sad. Like it they need a real it doesn't only affect, you know, it affects everybody.

SPEAKER_05 23:08

Everyone acts that's well, that's exactly why they knew what was gonna happen. Yeah. Like these dudes, like everybody who does something like this is shitty, but that's come on, like. It was public. People were watching it as it was going on. Yeah. For two hours. They didn't know who was being shot inside that building, who was still fucking alive, and who's already been shot and wounded.

SPEAKER_06 23:32

In 2025, Anne Marie Holtschalter, who had been paralyzed during the attack, died from complications linked to the injuries she suffered at Commabine. Her death was officially ruled a homicide connected to the shooting. Bringing the total number of victims lost as a result of Commabine to 14. And for those left behind, the question was no longer how did this happen? The question became how do we move forward? In the days following the shooting, the nation's search for answers. News crews descended upon Littleton, experts appeared on television, politicians spoke, parents demanded explanations, and almost immediately, theories began to emerge.

SPEAKER_08 24:25

But why had this happened? Some blamed bullying, others blamed violent video games, heavy metal music, the internet, the goth community, Marilyn Manson. Even though many of those claims would later prove to be exaggerated, misunderstood, or completely false. That they always go to that. Always, always, always. The g it's the goths, or it's the m the music they listen to, or it's the video games they play. No, maybe you should sit your fucking kids down and actually see what's fucking going on with your kids instead of blaming this shit.

SPEAKER_05 25:03

Well, it always takes me back to the Eminem song. I don't remember the name of it, but he said when a dude's getting bullied and shoots up the school, they blame it on Marilyn. But where were their parents at?

SPEAKER_08 25:15

It's always, they always blame it on other things besides themselves. And I'm sorry, but I listen to death metal. I listen to black metal, I listen to all that shit. Mm. J I'm fucking 29 years old and I have yet to have a thought to go out and kill somebody or shoot up a fucking school.

SPEAKER_05 25:33

I think because people out there can't stand the fact that they're sick motherfuckers. They always want something to blame it on.

SPEAKER_08 25:39

Like, they can't just blame it on the person. It has to be.

SPEAKER_05 25:42

It has to be someone else caused them.

SPEAKER_08 25:44

They played Call of Duty, so guess what? Call of Duty was violent, so we're gonna we're gonna say it was part of the video games.

SPEAKER_05 25:49

Like, oh yeah, if they're shooting Nazis, maybe.

SPEAKER_08 25:52

How how many kids that play violent video games grew up to be like this? I haven't played Grand Theft Auto since I was like five. My fucking parents bought me a fucking PS2 and my first game was fucking Call of Duty.

SPEAKER_06 26:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 26:06

Yeah, it's Yep, Resident Evil, yeah. It's not the fucking video games, it's your fucking kids that have no sense of fucking direction in their life.

SPEAKER_06 26:14

Or it's just some assholes that won't like look at um the Memphis 3 again. They were blamed because of what they wore. Because of what they wore, because they listened to.

SPEAKER_08 26:23

I'm sorry, but I for our listeners, the metal community are some of the nicest people that you can actually ever meet.

SPEAKER_06 26:33

Oh yeah, they are. Again, like how they blame Marilyn Manson during that time. I mean apparently, um uh so it's just mainstream news outlets that would falsely report this because, you know, it was Marilyn Manson. At the time, he was a very popular musician. His music is dark, but then investigate investigating authorities later confirmed that the shooters actually disliked Manson's music, viewing it as too pop. It was. And then it says right here, apparently it made a big impact on his career. It like ruined. Manson said during this era it he got financial loss from it, um, plunging sales, death threats. Manson received hundreds of death threats, particularly when performing in Colorado. Um, Manson issued seasoned assist orders to media networks to stop unverified assertion assertions connecting his name to the tragedy. And then I think during that time, Manson came out with a um interview saying that he he b Manson blame media politicians and societal hypocrisy through essays and public interviews.

SPEAKER_08 27:49

That that right there! That is it.

SPEAKER_05 27:52

That's what they have always done. I'm they did it to Manson, they did it to Michael, they're gonna do it to everyone they don't agree with.

SPEAKER_08 27:59

Sick and tired of people not taking accountability for their own actions and just blaming everything else around them. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_05 28:08

Like Manson's a weird dude, everybody can admit that.

SPEAKER_08 28:11

And well, he did just have sexual assault allegations that true though. Yeah, but they the judge, it they got overturned, and the judge just opened it back up. So I think there is something going on there.

SPEAKER_05 28:23

Yeah, well, because that whole situation is.

SPEAKER_06 28:27

You know, people do these certain things.

SPEAKER_05 28:30

Because I remember the woman's if it's the same girl I was thinking about, we watched her and she said something about uh shooting the music video.

SPEAKER_06 28:38

So was Evan Rachel what was dating him at the time. That was her in that music video, um, uh Heart Shaped Glasses, I think. Oh yeah, like gross.

SPEAKER_05 28:48

It was like, well, you gotta you you didn't know he was gonna do that and you were dating him.

SPEAKER_08 28:53

Well, I always grew up hearing the stories about Marilyn Manson, how he had his ribs ribs. That was not real. So he could suck his own dick, and it's like, yeah, I mean, yeah, the dude was weird. I mean, and when you look at him, he's a weird he's a weird-looking dude. He he gives the weird vibe. He does. But I like to do I like a new song with that. Blah blah blah. He's really not even that heavy. No, he's he is more of the like what Zach said, he is more of the poppy type of metal. Idiot. He is not, you know.

SPEAKER_05 29:25

It's pretty much what Ghost does. He has metal in it. He's like metal core, but he's got a pop to it.

SPEAKER_08 29:31

Almost like Sleep Token. Sleep Token goes from jazz to RB to shirt um scream like that. I really like that band.

SPEAKER_06 29:39

They remind me. Yeah, they're pretty good.

SPEAKER_08 29:41

I saw them a couple years ago at President's?

SPEAKER_06 29:43

Yeah. I just started listening to them.

SPEAKER_08 29:45

Yeah, they their newer music is a little bit more heavy. Yeah, their their newer music is a little bit more heavy, but I went to Point Fest with Michaela a few years ago. Oh, that's right, yeah. And Bad Omens was headlining because that's who I wanted to see, and President was there.

SPEAKER_05 30:05

Investigators spent years examining journals, videos, and school records, interviews, and evidence recovered from the attack. And despite everything they uncovered, one uncomfortable truth remained. There was never a single answer. No single event, no single person, no single motive that could fully explain Columbine.

SPEAKER_06 30:33

What investigators did discover was that many of the stories repeated in the aftermath weren't entirely accurate. One of the most famous involved was Cassie Bernard. For years, many believed she was asked if she believed in God moments before her death. But later investigations suggested that exchange likely involved survivor Eileen Schnurr, who survived her injuries.

SPEAKER_05 30:58

And that's part of the Do you believe in God?

SPEAKER_06 31:02

Fly Leaf son, Kathy.

SPEAKER_05 31:05

And I won't pull the trigger.

SPEAKER_08 31:08

But the other myths continued to spread. That Harris and Cleobold were members of the trenchcoat mafia, that they specifically targeted athletes, that the attack could be explained by a single act of bullying, but reality proved far more complicated. And while investigators debated motives, the Columbine community faced a different challenge. A healing. How do you return to school where something like this happened? How do you walk those hallways again? How do you sit in those classrooms?

SPEAKER_06 31:43

And how do you move forward? For the remainder of the school year, classes were held at a nearby high school. Then, in August of 1999, students returned to Columbine together.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

I have been looking forward to this day for a long time. Last year, you made me make a promise that I would not allow anyone or anything to take our school. Well, today, I am fulfilling that promise. You have given me the strength to move forward.

SPEAKER_08 32:34

As they gathered for the start of a new school year, many wore shirts bearing a simple message. We are Columbine. Those three words became a symbol of resilience, a refusal to allow the tragedy to define them forever.

SPEAKER_05 32:53

Memorials appeared throughout Colorado. Flowers, photographs, candles, handwritten notes, crosses, places where complete strangers stood beside grieving families and mourned together. Because by then, Columbai no longer belonged only to Colorado. It belonged to the entire country.

SPEAKER_06 33:18

Families transformed unimaginable loss into action. Programs like Rachel's Challenge encouraged kindness, empathy, and compassion in schools across the country. Others advocated for school safety reforms, violence prevention, and mental health awareness, but determined that their loved ones would be remembered for how they lived, but not simply how they died.

SPEAKER_08 33:42

Columbine changed how schools responded to emergencies. It changed police tactics. It changed conversations about school safety. And in many ways, it became the event that shaped how America would respond to school shootings for decades to come.

SPEAKER_05 34:07

As the nation struggled to understand what had happened, millions of Americans grieved alongside the Columbine community.

SPEAKER_06 34:15

But perhaps the most lasting legacy isn't found in legislation or investigations or news headlines. It's found in the people who refuse to let Columbine be remembered only by violence. The survivors, the families, the teachers, and the first responders in the community that somehow found a way to keep going.

SPEAKER_08 34:38

More than twenty five years later, the names of the victims are still spoken, their stories are still told, and their memories continue to live on through the people who love them.

SPEAKER_05 34:50

Because Columbine is more than a tragedy. It's a reminder of how fragile life can be and how powerful resilience can become in the face of unimaginable loss.

SPEAKER_08 35:03

Remember Rachel Scott. Remember Dave Sanders.

SPEAKER_05 35:08

Remember every life lost that day.

SPEAKER_06 35:15

And before we close out today's episode, we wanted to ask each other one final question.

SPEAKER_08 35:21

After spending weeks researching Columbine, what do you think has stayed with you the most?

SPEAKER_06 35:28

Um the survivors and the victims.

SPEAKER_08 35:32

Definitely the survivors, the victims, the families of, you know, the ones that were lost. How they, you know, they didn't get to come home with with their son or their daughter.

SPEAKER_06 35:45

I don't know, that's depress-awful. And it's something that could have been prevented, you know.

SPEAKER_05 35:50

The disturbing ignorance of two losers who could have found another way to vent themselves, but instead took the lives of 14 people because they felt like it.

SPEAKER_08 36:00

Every single school shooter that has been on this planet is a loser that doesn't deserve to. Every shooter.

SPEAKER_06 36:08

Or the the stupid guy asshole the movie theater.

SPEAKER_08 36:13

Oh, the guy that played the dressed up as the joker. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:16

Like that or the guy who sh uh shot at out Las Vegas, or all of them.

SPEAKER_08 36:21

Yeah. They all they all deserve to burn in hell in the most painful way imaginable.

SPEAKER_06 36:28

Mm-hmm. And that Dave Sanders guy, like, he was risking his own safety to save all these kids, you know. Yeah. Like I mean, that that was awesome of him, but it just it sucks that, you know, he had to succumb to his It sucks that his life was taken.

SPEAKER_08 36:45

Right. Too soon. Mm-hmm. 47. And all at the cost of two pansies who couldn't control their mental health. Exactly. Yeah, they definitely had something going on.

SPEAKER_05 36:59

Yeah, and from their own admission, some of those people were their friends.

SPEAKER_06 37:04

Yeah, like that poor guy that um was it Dylan that told him to go home? Like in the beginning. No, he didn't. He told me.

SPEAKER_08 37:12

No, there was one that he told to go home because I like you.

SPEAKER_06 37:16

I like you now. Go home. Like what? And that poor kid.

SPEAKER_05 37:20

And I'm sorry. Peekaboo. What the fuck?

SPEAKER_08 37:22

The parents definitely need to be held accountable. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:26

Because You didn't notice your son's collecting all this arsenal?

SPEAKER_08 37:30

How I know mental health, you know, over the decades has become more and more prominent. And I I believe that the parents knew that there was something wrong with their children and just chose to ignore it.

SPEAKER_05 37:49

Yeah, they didn't want to deal with it.

SPEAKER_08 37:50

Instead of getting them the help that they needed.

SPEAKER_05 37:53

They saw it as another payment instead of prevention.

SPEAKER_08 37:59

And and and to me, some of these parents need to be held accountable up in the court. Yeah. Because now some states are starting to do that, where if a kid does something like this, the parents are also being put on on trial. And that's how it should be. Because what are the parents doing?

SPEAKER_06 38:17

Apparently Dylan's mom, Sue. She is um now an American author, suicide prevention activist. Um after remaining out of the public eye for years, she released a memoir in 2016 titled A Mother's Reckoning Living in the Aftermath of Tragedy. The book details Dylan's upbringing, the subtle signs of clinical depression she missed, and her processing of grief and guilt.

SPEAKER_08 38:43

Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 38:44

She denot she donates all author profits from book sales and speaking engagements to mental health research and suicide prevention charities.

SPEAKER_08 38:52

She needs to be giving that money, though, also to the victims of colonial. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 38:56

I yeah.

SPEAKER_08 38:57

Not just these this mental health thing. She needs to be giving that money to the parents that no longer have the children. Yep. And to the kids that, you know, endured all these injuries and stuff. She needs to be donated that money to them.

SPEAKER_06 39:14

She admits to being ignorant of the depth of her son's despair and inner darkness, wishing she hadn't listened more rather than lectured him. In the aftermath, she experienced severe shame, humiliation, and difficulty forgiving herself for failing to protect the community in her own sense. I mean, you gotta think she also feel, you know, like your son is one look what your son just did. Like I mean, I I feel for her.

SPEAKER_08 39:40

I feel for her in a sense, but I also think that she just admitted that she knew. Yeah. She knew that there was something going on and she didn't do what she should have done.

SPEAKER_06 39:50

Yeah, she pretty much ignored it because she does not believe she raised a monster or taught violence in her home. Instead, she views her accountability as a failure of awareness and intervention, believing that if she had known how to read the signs of his suicidal ideation, she could have stopped the massacre. She views Dylan's actions primarily as a murder suicide driven by pathology. She believes his desire to die was the catalyst leading her to focus her accountability efforts to suicide prevention education for other parents. Her perspective has drawn mixed reactions. While many praise her bravery and work and mental health advocacy, some critics and victims' families feel that framing the massacre primarily as a mental health or suicide issue minimizes her son's agency and downplays the full scope of parent parental responsibility. That right there.

SPEAKER_05 40:44

That's how I feel about that. I think she well, if she truly isn't profiting off of it anyway, then that's good.

SPEAKER_07 40:50

Right. She shouldn't. No, she. And if she does, then yeah, if she is keeping any of that money, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:56

Then she's not a good person. She wrote that for the very reason of getting the money. Like For the fame. Nobody asked for that. Nobody wants to hear your side. Your son was a fucking psychopath, and you failed to realize it early in life because you didn't want to deal with it.

SPEAKER_08 41:10

Yeah. The teachers did their diligence on turning the work in and seeing.

SPEAKER_05 41:15

Whoever they turned it into needs a fucking game. They're the ones that dropped the ball. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 41:19

The ones who didn't do anything about it.

SPEAKER_06 41:21

But I mean, like, here, like, the m she had to have known what kind of essays her child was writing. She won't kill people.

SPEAKER_05 41:29

Like, there had to be science in it. There's no way that she just went in there and it was just blank, and that'd be even worse.

SPEAKER_08 41:35

Like, I I I do feel for her in a sense. Right. I mean. But at the same time. At the same time, you had to have been told about what your son was writing in school.

SPEAKER_05 41:48

Especially if they turned it in, they had to talk to the mom too. They can't just talk to professionals about alerting the parent first.

SPEAKER_08 41:54

I mean, that's something that that's very, very serious in writing.

SPEAKER_05 41:59

It's not just like, oh, he said a little bit of like, no, the whole thing was about how he wanted to annihilate some people in some pretty brutal ways. Um, I think you should look into that. It was kind of point blank forward in hindsight.

SPEAKER_06 42:13

And then it says, unlike Sue Clybold, Eric Harris's mother, Kathy Harris, and her husband Wayne chose a path of complete and permanent public silence following the tragedy.

SPEAKER_05 42:23

Because they're like, what are we gonna do?

SPEAKER_06 42:24

She has never given a media interview, written a book, or made a public appearance. Um, because she's probably hiding all of her guilt. In an April 2000 statement, Wayne and Kathy Harris stated they were profoundly saddened by the suffering caused by their son. They wrote, What he did was unforgivable and beyond our capacity to understand.

SPEAKER_05 42:43

Because to me it still seems like Eric was the fucking power horse behind it and Derek Dylan was just following along.

SPEAKER_06 42:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 42:50

Because wasn't he the one who was fucking amped up about it while Dylan was kind of just there?

SPEAKER_06 42:55

Hmm. Yeah. Says, while Kathy Harris never spoke to the public, she and her husband were forced to give sworn legal depositions in 2003 as part of the lawsuits brought by the victims' families. The sealed depositions. A federal judge ordered these records sealed for twenty years to prevent further trauma and not notoriety.

SPEAKER_05 43:15

Well, where are they at?

SPEAKER_06 43:16

Though that time frame has elapsed, they remain restricted from general public release. Why? What is them to the public? Portion. Portions of investigative files reveal that the Harris household was highly structured. Wayne was a retired Air Force military pilot, and like the Cleables, the Harrises were aware of some of Eric's troubling behavior prior to the shooting, including a prior arrest for breaking into a van, and had entered him into anger management and placed him on antidepressants. However, they maintained they had no idea he was building pipe bombs in their home or planning a massacre. Cathy and Wayne Harris legally relocated, flying entirely under the radar to protect their privacy and the life of their. Older son Kevin. They have successfully maintained total anon anonymity for over two decades.

SPEAKER_05 44:07

My bet, they probably changed everything.

unknown 44:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:10

But I want to know what's in those records now, or depositions. It's been twenty, what, twenty-three years now.

SPEAKER_05 44:19

Probably a more detailed overview of what you just went through. Probably, probably. The pipe bombs. They knew more about what they were leading on, and they had run-ins in the past with him breaking the law and being troublesome.

SPEAKER_06 44:32

I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 44:33

I still think Eric was the lead horse.

SPEAKER_06 44:35

Oh, definitely he was.

SPEAKER_05 44:37

I think Dylan was just a tag along because he didn't have anybody else.

SPEAKER_06 44:40

Well, kinda like the um Cassie Stodart situation. Uh one of them was more Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:46

Um the leader and the other was just following. Yes. Yeah, because didn't one of them stabbed her like fucking He was the main I thought one of them apparently admitted to stabbing her a few more times or even probably a ten plus more times than the other one did because she was brutalized. There wasn't no Yeah. Like taking a buck knife to do the job. I don't give a fuck what their names is. Peace is what I call them.

SPEAKER_06 45:14

Oh yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_05 45:15

POS 1, POS2.

SPEAKER_08 45:16

But yeah. Anyways, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:18

Long list of fuckers.

SPEAKER_08 45:20

I'm the the parents. I'm sorry, but the parents need to be held a little bit more. Oh yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_05 45:27

What year did they do the Cassie one again?

SPEAKER_06 45:30

That was in um 2006.

SPEAKER_05 45:32

Okay, so I don't. To me, I don't they kind of seem like they idolized the uh Columbine guys too.

SPEAKER_06 45:39

Yeah, they did.

SPEAKER_04 45:40

That's what I'm saying. They wanted to do a little more, but didn't get the chance to, and they took the opportunity to take Cassie out. Wanted to take her boyfriend out too, but his mom wouldn't let him stay the night, thank goodness, mother. But Cassie, I know you're just trying to do your job, stay, watch your ants have to be a little bit more.

SPEAKER_06 45:55

Yeah, they deeply idolized Eric and Dylan.

SPEAKER_04 45:57

Which is weird.

SPEAKER_06 45:58

Well, because if you think about it, they recorded themselves prior to the attack.

SPEAKER_04 46:02

They always wore the black clothes, long cloaks. They try to be part of the fucking trench coat mafia too.

SPEAKER_06 46:09

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I don't know, they didn't wear the trench coats.

SPEAKER_04 46:16

They didn't? No. Just the fucking columners wanting to be part of the Matrix and shit.

SPEAKER_06 46:21

Not when they attacked, anyways. Like the Wasn it which one was it? Was it uh I think it was Tori who was I don't know, it's just fucking Anyways, yeah. It's all they're all screwed up.

SPEAKER_05 46:36

We'd love to hear your thoughts as well. What part of the Columbine story has stayed with you the most? Let us know on our social media pages or send us an email.

SPEAKER_06 46:46

Yeah, we'll start putting up like polls and stuff too for you guys to interact with.

SPEAKER_04 46:51

Yes, because I'm absolutely curious to see what you guys think too.

SPEAKER_06 46:55

Not the way our thoughts, but I'm just curious what others, you know.

SPEAKER_04 46:59

Yeah, you hear our thoughts all the time. Your turn.

SPEAKER_06 47:01

Yeah. And that concludes our three-part series on Columbine High School. Thank goodness. Thank goodness.

SPEAKER_08 47:11

Thank you for joining us as we explored one of the most significant and heartbreaking events in modern American history.

SPEAKER_05 47:20

To the victims, survivors, families, first responders, and everyone whose lives was forever impacted by April 20th, 1999. We at Vale of Echoes remember you.

SPEAKER_06 47:40

If you've enjoyed today's episode, please consider following the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.

SPEAKER_08 47:48

Leaving a rating or review helps more people discover Veil of Echoes and supports the work we do here each week.

SPEAKER_06 47:55

And we'll also put your put um your rating and review as like a submission for monthly giveaways, which has cool stuff in our tarot card that we got made for you guys. You get some cool shits, bros. And we'll also read your guys' reviews here on the show.

SPEAKER_08 48:14

Yeah, you get some cool shit, so do it. Yes. Have fun with it. Right? Please.

SPEAKER_05 48:20

And don't forget to send us your paranormal experiences, true crime encounters, near death experiences, or unexplained stories for our upcoming listener series, Echoes from the Vale.

SPEAKER_06 48:35

And you can send those to Vale of Echoes Podcast at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_08 48:41

Next time, uh retravel to the rocky coastline of Maine to a place where generations of lifesavers once stood watch over the sea.

SPEAKER_05 48:51

Built to rescue shipwreck victims from the unforgiving Atlantic. The Wood Island Lifesaving Station has witnessed tragedy, loss, and death for more than a century.

SPEAKER_06 49:06

Visitors have reported unexplained footsteps, shadowy figures moving through empty rooms, and voices calling out from places where no one should be.

SPEAKER_08 49:17

Some believe the spirits of those who once served there never truly left.

SPEAKER_06 49:37

The Wood Island Lifesaving Station. Also, we have a surprise episode for you guys on Wednesday.

SPEAKER_08 49:44

Um This Wednesday we're gonna be releasing our interview with author JD Barker.

SPEAKER_06 49:50

Yes, he's a um New York Times best-selling author, and he's written a lot of cool books. Um he's also uh what made Dracula, which was with um Brahm Stoker's great nephew. Yes, his great nephew.

SPEAKER_08 50:07

Um Which was the for the listeners that don't know, which was the writer of the story Dracula.

SPEAKER_06 50:12

Yes, yes, yes. And he um does a lot of um books with James Patterson. Which you'll see a lot of his stuff everywhere. Yes. James Patterson is everywhere, guys. Exactly. So, but no, JD was pretty cool. He was pretty cool, but we'll be releasing our episode with him on Wednesday, and then we decided to release Yeah, this paranormal episode of this life saving station for Friday. So, check it out, check him out. He's cool.

SPEAKER_08 50:42

Yeah, go check him out, guys. Seriously, he was really cool.

SPEAKER_06 50:45

Yeah. Until next time, keep your ears open.

SPEAKER_05 50:51

And the veil closed.