Cameron Christensen (Princeton University, NJ)

Cameron Christensen’s path into asset management is rooted in family legacy and shaped by a career in higher education. Now at Princeton University, he works at the intersection of historic preservation and modern campus needs. Cameron shares insights on leadership, institutional culture, and the responsibility of stewarding facilities that serve generations of students and faculty.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hello and welcome to Telling Your Asset Management Story. Cameron Christensen's journey into facilities leadership carries a unique personal dimension, a family legacy in the field that helped shape his perspective on stewardship and responsibility. Today, Cameron works at Princeton University, where balancing historic facilities with modern expectations requires careful planning and long-term thinking. In this episode, we'll talk about leadership, institutional culture, and what it means to care for infrastructure that serves generations of students and faculty.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Cameron, thanks so much uh for joining us here on season two of Telling Your Asset Management Story. Super excited to uh dive in, get your answers and responses to these questions, and let you tell your story. Thanks, Bill. Glad to be here. Awesome. So um we usually start off, Cameron, with asking our guests, you know, tell us a little bit about your journey and how you ended up here. Because as we were talking beforehand, right, there's very few four-year-old kids are running around going, I want to be a facility or asset manager when I grow up, right? It um in fact, the last interview we did were talking about being an astronaut and then kind of ended up there. But your your story is a little unique in what I know, and I'm excited to learn more, and that it's a little bit of a second generation story. So why don't why don't you take us back a little bit further back than your story, Cameron, and kind of use that to set the table for how you ended up uh at Burrell.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Well, uh, Bill, I appreciate that. And I appreciate the chance to tell the story. It's actually goes beyond second generation. If you we can go back multiple generations, if we uh if we go back to the 1800s, my uh I think it's third, second or third great grandfather, uh, maybe it's more than that, he was uh as part of the church that I'm part of, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, he was the he was on the buildings committee for both the Nahu Temple and the Salt Lake City Temple after the uh pioneers migrated to the uh Salt Lake Valley. And so facilities management is uh truly in my blood for multi-generations. But uh to allude to get what you alluded to about uh my dad, my dad was a an asset management professional. He uh he was the director of the Capital Needs Analysis Center at Brigham Young University, and he worked in facilities from the day he graduated college to the day he retired. So, and right there at BYU. And so 40 years in facilities management, he pioneered uh many of the things that just today we're figuring out life cycle costs. Is uh arguably the first total cost of ownership study, at least that I've ever heard of, was from the 1970s when he did a uh assessment on flooring needs for chapels for the church. And now all the chapels that you see throughout the world have carpet largely because of the study that he did in the 70s on total cost of ownership. And so so yeah, I'm very proud of that heritage and just looking to carry the banner forward. When I was trying to figure out what profession to uh go into, I originally went to college on a trumpet performance scholarship, gonna teach music and perform on the side, and um realized that I um I had other passions and started talking to my dad, and he suggested I go check out facilities. And so I I ultimately graduated with an undergraduate in facilities management from Brigham Young University. Uh my emphasis at the time was uh capital planning and asset management. It's kind of a self-emphasis, they didn't have a direct emphasis. But since then, I've served in various roles uh throughout the country. Um, each one I've tried to maintain an asset focus. And uh, but now I at Princeton University been here for a little over two years as the director of asset management. And uh I'm just thrilled to be here. It's a great campus, beautiful campus, wonderful people to work with. And so that's a very, very quick way of sharing how I got to where I am.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

What a what an what an amazing family legacy going back to the 1800s. That's neat. I I knew it went one generation back, but I didn't know it went further back than that. So that's that's awesome. And I I really like how your dad was involved, not just at his place of work uh at the university, but also with the churches and things like that, and how he was helping kind of bring the same philosophy and and ideas uh both both you know both inside and outside his profession. That's pretty uh that's pretty awesome. So and uh so you mentioned you graduated with a with a with an undergraduate in facility. Tell me a little bit about that. I didn't realize there were there were a lot of programs.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Well, there aren't many. There aren't many. Okay, that's so I think about a decade ago, I was at an IFMA conference, and I think at the time the IFMA Foundation estimated that there was about 650 students that graduated with a degree with an accredited IFMA accredited degree in facilities management annually. So you're talking about 650 professionals throughout the country, so not a lot. And so I think a hundred of them came out of BYU or something like that. Anyway, um, so the the undergraduate profession at BYU at the time I was there was is was really revolutionary. You had uh about a good chunk of the classes, probably 60, 70% of the classes were construction management. So we got it, we we dug into the finishing systems and the electrical systems and mechanicals and all that that goes into building a facility. Um we worked on soft skills like construct, you know, construction management, project management, scheduling, estimating, all those things. Um we uh we also worked um you uh you get a minor in business through the Marriott School of Management. And then we have our core facilities management classes, which include operations and maintenance and asset management was actually a class that I took taught by my dad. And so and it was uh so that was the degree, that was the undergraduate degree that I I pursued. Since then, I've gotten master's degrees in real estate and nonprofit and then MBA in finance. And so uh all of that is to help complement the uh the education that I received at BYU.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

No, that's excellent. Yeah, I'm glad I I I like I said I'm I'm glad it was it's not widespread because I haven't heard or met a lot of folks that that that graduated from such a program. So that sounds uh that sounds pretty neat. And and to to to take a class with you know with your dad must have been a pretty cool thing.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

It was it was really cool. It was intimidating because I wanted to make sure that if I got good grades that I earned those grades, there wasn't any kind of nepotism issue, but it was it was really fun holding study groups at dad's house with uh with a bunch of students and having you know the professor just in the kitchen dishing up ice cream. So it was that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Yeah, my my mom taught at the high school I went to, but she taught girls phys ed. So as hard as I tried, I couldn't get into her class. So uh I never had the honor. So sorry. Um so um so you you you mentioned a little bit about Princeton and and your time there. Can you for those that don't know, I mean I think everybody knows Princeton, but but probably not Princeton facilities and facility and asset management perspective. Can you tell us a little bit about uh your portfolio and and and what you're managing and and that sort of thing, just just to give everybody a peek behind the the veil that is uh the Princeton?

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Behind the orange curtain? No, no, that's fine. Uh my role is uh actually in facilities operations. And so I work very closely with the operational units, building maintenance, building services, campus grounds. We have a site protection group that does fire life safety, engineering, campus energy, um, and so um, and our Schmal Projects group. So we've got a lot of um units within operations that maintain uh the buildings, the the the built environment for here for Princeton. And uh that includes all the shops, um, all the custodians, all the groundskeepers, all all of uh all those folks. And but Princeton Facilities is also made up of uh capital projects, architects, strategists. We have uh our finance group, our IT group, all supporting the work that we do. And we're I think we're up over 900 individuals just in facilities under our uh under our vice president Q Wong. And so it's a it's a really great group of folks, a lot of collaboration, a lot of uh uh a lot of collegiality that we work very closely with. Um, you know, just like any organization, we have our quirks, and that's fine. Um, but uh Princeton itself, the campus, we have about 190 buildings, give or take, um, on the main campus. I think we're up around 400 total um in the Princeton portfolio. Uh we don't maintain all those, not all those are facilities maintained, but it's a it's a good size. Uh the main campus is about 500 acres and 14 million square feet. So the asset portfolio, we're we're still working on cleaning up our asset inventory, but we're pushing 40,000 assets that we manage. And uh and so in that we we intentionally don't manage a lot of assets that uh some places might just because of bandwidth. And we might grow into those additional systems in the future, but right now we're focusing on MEP systems, envelope, roofing, uh, those kind of things. So that's that's uh that's largely the portfolio that we're trying to manage here in uh in asset management. Work very closely with uh operational units, other facilities units, and partners throughout campus, such as housing uh and uh dining services and others with university services, the the colleges and the deans and such.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

Yeah. Well, I think it's really good that you've sort of said, look, we're we're gonna manage the the asset data set that we can manage today. It doesn't mean we're not gonna evolve and grow over time, but it sounds like you've you've found your data sweet spot, as I like to call it. Because I see a lot of folks sometimes they overshoot and they end up with this this monster. So so being being cognizant of going, hey, look, you know what, it it we are gonna keep this you know manageable, I think, is is is a smart decision that so you don't end up overwhelming the capacity of your organization, even though it's a very big organization.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Yeah, it is a big organization, and we do our best to uh to maintain the the data assets and the and the business intelligence components. And we've got a very we've got a very robust team that that helps us do that. We get a lot of great support from our facilities IT group and the campus IT group. But it's a tall order. It's a big, it's a big job to maintain even just those 40,000 assets, and as those become more mature, we'll grow into other areas. But uh yeah, starting where we can feel like we can make the most do the most good.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

Awesome. Well, you you've touched on uh you know a lot of the different departments and things like that that that that that you're you're collaborating with, whether it's your own department or collaborating with those other departments, which is also great because you know it doesn't sound like you're you're bumping into too many silos, but when you look out at at the campus and at your specific responsibilities, what are the top three challenges that you see for for your portfolio, for your team and your responsibilities, and how are you tackling those uh today?

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Yeah, that's that's a great question, Bill. And um just as any organization, you mentioned silos. We do have we have silos. We you know, dad, my dad, going back to dad's experiences, he used to used to talk about we we have to have silos. We have to have stovepipes because that's just the way we operate. You know, capital projects doesn't operate. We don't we don't build buildings. And so um we have these stovepipes, but the more that they can be mesh lined cylinders rather than concrete lead lined silos, the better off we're gonna be. And so I feel like we we're we're strive making strides, strides in that direction.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

I I would say that's a really neat way to look at it, actually. Sorry, that's a really cool way to look at it, is is because you're right, it they do they're they're there for a reason and they make sense. It's just how much of a barrier is. And I really like that uh wire mesh analogy. That's a great one.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

I might steal that camera. Go for it. I I think it's great if you can. If you can use that, that then go for it.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Uh to answer your question about the three challenges, I think that um the three that we're working on right now, and the ones that are most present, is uh is the first one is data. I mentioned we're updating our asset inventory, and that's that's a bit of a slog, but we're we're getting through it in a lot of ways. I've in the past, I've actually stood up asset management programs at other operations, and in many ways it's easier to just start from scratch. Um, but here we have assets, we have history that we don't want to lose. And so going through and auditing that data and that history to make sure that it that the data is accurate, that um the assets are are reflective of what is actually in the facility, it's it's a bit it's a bit challenging. And getting that data to a point where we have a level of trust with it. So I think that right now we've got some trust, but not as much as we would like, especially when it comes to asset lifecycle data and those kind of things. And that's that's coming, and that we're we're striving to have a lot more trust in that um in that asset data in that regard. So I would say that's that's making sure that that foundational data is is as good as we can make it. Uh the second I would say is culture. Um, you know, they say that culture eats strategy for breakfast. And uh dad used to have a really great saying that I've taken with me wherever I go, and he said that facilities management is people management. We bring the buildings along with laps. And so it's very true. The none of these things is even as smart as AI is getting, as smart as our technology is getting, it's all about people. And we need to make sure that we are bringing the people along for the ride. If the minute we just start focusing on the data, focusing on the systems, and we forget the people, we're gonna start to we're gonna start to leave them behind, and we're gonna have just gonna exacerbate any challenges that we we might have. So um so here at Princeton, we have a lot that a lot of folks who may not have been focused on asset management principles in the past, and and that's okay. That was their uh that was how they operated, and that's fine. And so working with folks to to help them understand, catch the vision, starting with why, to use Simon Sinek's uh Simon Sinek's analogy, and making that uh that why the emphasis of what we're striving to do. And and working to make sure that there is that culture shift that is going and it's going in a positive direction. And that, and when we get as we get to those points, we have the uh we can understand, better understand the hows and the what's, but starting with why and helping people understand that, catch the vision of what we're trying to do with asset management. I would say the the last piece that we're we're working on right now is technology. Um technology, I think, is oftentimes misunderstood as a strategy. Technology, I've not found it to be a strategy. Um if you've read any of uh Jim Collins' work in Built to Last or Good to Great, he's very clear that technology is an accelerator of strategy, it's not strategy. And so we're um we're making sure that um the technologies that we utilize um are supporting our our strategies. And again, I I've mentioned our F our facilities IT group. We got a great group of professionals that are very supportive in what we do. We work very closely with them. Right now, we're working on rolling out a new enterprise asset management system, which is consuming a lot of my time. And a lot of ours' time and so it's it's uh but we want we're we're making the time investment right now to make sure that it is set up right and set up for success. And so, and as we as we get that enterprise asset management system set up, there are net there are other things that we'll want to do on the horizon and there are integrations and other systems we'll want to pursue. But keeping in mind that that technology is foundational to the strategy and it supports the strategy that we do. One one thing, the last thing I'll say about strategy as we guide our efforts is when I arrived at Princeton, our AVP, he wanted wanted to make sure that um we kept in kept strap kept technology in its proper place, and as we pursue new technologies, he asks, are we adding value or are we playing with computers? There's a lot of things that we do that that can be that kind of flirt with that line of playing with computers. And honestly, as we explore new technologies, we're gonna play with computers a little bit, but as we play with computers, we might find that uh that value. And so, but we always try and make sure that whatever we do with technology, we're adding value, and that's what we're striving for. And so I would say to answer your question, those are the three areas that I would say we're we're kind of focused on right now in asset management, and in addition to all those foundational elements of supporting the operations and collaborating with our colleagues on ensuring that our buildings and assets are optimized for performance of supporting the Princeton mission.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Right. It's interesting because I don't know if you've ever seen, we call it the onion, the integrated asset management framework that we use in a lot of our communications with customers, but it starts with the core is you know understanding your business objectives and business processes, which is fundamentally the strategy part you talked about. The next layer is the data, which is what we also talked about, and then the third layer is the tools. And so your your thinking kind of follows right along with those first foundational pieces because again, um, you know, I love the fact that that as an organization and even even up to your senior leadership, looked at uh, you know, technology as an I always use the term it's an enabler. It's an enabler of your process. And if your process is terrible, it's gonna it's gonna enable the heck out of that terrible process, but it's still gonna give a bad result. So I I like that, I like that not only yourself, but everybody in the organization looked at technology with a little bit of a skeptical eye in terms of what is the value, what are we trying to achieve, is it gonna do that? Because a lot of folks look are looking for the easy button, right? They're just looking for the way out, they're looking for the magic bullet. And I don't know, I haven't found a technology yet that is. So I love it. It's it's a it's a very uh, you know, I'm glad to hear that uh that that approach and philosophy from you guys.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

I I love that analogy. Enabler is a really great term for it, build.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

Yeah. So um kind of talked about where you are today. Uh let's turn our let's turn our attention to the next five or ten years. Um, how do you see facility and asset management you know evolving and or staying the same as as we go forward?

SPEAKER_01 19:57

So I think that's a really that's a really great question. And you know, my crystal ball is in the shop, otherwise I'd I'd tell you exactly where to go with it. But it's it's I my personal opinion, excuse me, is where I see asset asset management going is currently the industry is very arduous, it's very manual. You go out, you take some inventory, you're looking at spreadsheets, you know, maybe some have graduated to uh uh to business intelligence dashboards like Tableau or or uh Microsoft Power BI, those kind of things. But it takes a lot of data and a lot of pulling it together. So over the next 10 years, I think we're really gonna see this AI presence come around. And we're gonna be taking a lot of these things that are that are right now done in these tools, and we're gonna be informing digital twinning models, AI models. We're gonna be training AI agents, and we're gonna be doing a lot of these things where they're gonna be able to evaluate in and gain insights that right now might be hidden to us just because of our inability to crunch these big numbers. Now, some I'm not and what I'm talking about is not exactly new. You probably have listeners saying, yeah, we already do that. That's no big deal. Um, and so and that would be great, but it's not commonplace. And so just as in the 80s and 90s, we're we're rolling out preventive maintenance, and those that were trying to do life cycle were like, I, yeah, I've done it.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

We're still we're still rolling it out now in a lot of places, let me tell you.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Um But uh as we work on um understanding these technologies, we talk about an enabling technology or an accelerating technology. I think AI is going to be that one of those, one of those turning points. And we hear about AI being this huge thing coming at us, and I don't think we really even know what it's going to bring, but I do know that. As we work and make sure that we are ready for it, we're learning about it, we're finding ways to creatively implement AI into our operations. Could be just simple large language models at this point, but eventually rolling into agentic AI and as we get to other advanced technologies, that being able to utilize these technologies to make good decisions with machine-based learning and predictive analytics and all of that, it's really going to help us to make better decisions in a much more timely manner and uh ensure that we are optimizing those assets even more so than we are now. So I would say the next 10 years is going to be the age of AI.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Yeah. It's interesting because uh I just wrapped up uh conference season and a lot of folks, you know, we used to talk about do more with less. The last little while, a lot of people have been talking about we got to do less with less, because we can't do more with less. So it's a matter of how do we reduce levels of service. I think AI has an opportunity to bring us back to at least doing more with less, right? Because doing less with less, that's kind of depressing from my perspective, right? It's like, okay, well, what should we be doing that we just simply can't afford to do? And so I I kind of I've kind of liken it to it it's gonna allow us to get back to doing more with with less. Um, which but again, I I totally agree. Like, I don't think, I don't think any anybody who says they know what it's gonna do and how it's gonna impact things like with clarity, I think they're kidding themselves.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

And they they might have a good idea today, based on what we know today. Yeah. But as this technology continues to evolve and grow, um uh I've just tried to study up on it as much as I can. And it's it's I I don't even think we're seeing the tip of the iceberg, let alone the whole iceberg. But I think the important thing to keep in mind is as we were talking about before with technology, the strategy is not changing. We're not moving off mission. The goal is to support the campus community in the work that they do, their educational pursuits, their residential pursuits, athletics, whatever they're trying to do is support that community, making sure that the facilities and the assets are optimized for performance. We're replacing them in a way that is effective and efficient. We're not wasting funds, we're being good stewards of our resources. AI is just gonna be the tool, the accelerator, the enabler of that strategy. But the strategy is going to remain essentially our same core values. It's going to continue and perpetuate. AI is just going to be another very big tool in our toolbox.

unknown 24:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

No, that's a that's a great that's a great way to look at it. And certainly not losing sight of the core values and the vision is is super important. Um, Cameron, you mentioned when you were talking about your dad and the study that he did back in the 70s, you mentioned total cost of ownership a little bit. Um, can we can we uh I'd like to just dive a little bit deeper into it because I know that that's an area of passion for you and you're doing some work in that. Are you able to talk a little bit about uh kind of your your idea, your vision, even just the concept of what you consider total cost of ownership? Because it's one of those things that like it's like sustainability. It means many different things to many different people. So I'd love if you could share a little bit on that just because I think it's really uh, you know, kind of forward-thinking what what the work that you're doing, and I think it's in conjunction with Apple, too, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Uh thanks, Bill. Um a little bit is uh yeah, we've uh so going back a few years, about uh oh almost six years ago now, we uh there was a um we published the first ever standard on total cost of ownership. It was about a three-year effort. And it started, dad was one of the steering committee members, um, and uh and he unfortunately passed away while we were working on it. But um, but it was his passion as well, and so he he kind of again instilled a passionate in me. But we got a group of very smart people together and we really explored this idea of what is total cost of ownership, and we were looking to try and define it and build a model. And we can't in part one, we came up with 13 principles with regards to what are the foundational elements of total cost of ownership. And then we proceeded on to develop part two, which is kind of an implementation guide. How do you do it? And then there was some data elements built after that that helped folks to understand uh the data side of it. And that really it's gotten a little bit of a reception. We had the the the bad luck of publishing it about a minute before COVID. So no one really looked at it. That's unfortunate. Um and so right now I'm working with um others, the two the two remaining members of the steering committee and uh and others to explore how we can revive this this idea. And as we go around, we talk to other APA members and others throughout the facilities industry, they some of them are familiar with the standard and they've even read it or even have a copy of it, but they're not quite sure what to do with it. And so we're trying to demystify it quite a bit. And um, one of the questions that I'm researching that you and I have spoken about is there's a lot of times we we understand someone will make a good effort into standing up uh asset management or total cost of ownership. And an element of research that I'm particularly focused on right now is how do we make it stick? Oftentimes you get that program executive or that that project champion and they move on, or they or another leader comes in and isn't as gung ho about it, and it goes out the window, and or it or it evolves into a shadow of what it was. And so I'm working with a lot of individuals, um having a lot of good conversations with folks like yourself, honestly, in that conversation we had uh a couple months ago at Irapa. Um, but uh understanding what has been done and what should be done to help make it stick, help make it more uh ingrained in the culture of the organization. Talking to folks that have done this for 40, 50 years, like folks at BYU, Brigham Young University, and and others that have done it maybe more recently in their understandings. So uh we're trying to figure out what is going to help folks understand this a little bit more effectively and um make resources available to them to uh uh to utilize this really excellent strategy. Uh a lot of people believe total cost of ownership is a cost-cutting strategy. It's not, it's a cost-aware strategy. And so even though folks might be looking at it to cut costs in their organization, just understanding that walking into this, when you cut the ribbon, that's that's only a part of your cost. You got yeah, you got two-thirds of it coming down the pike, at least uh in operations, maintenance, energy, and recapitalization. And so the idea is to take really take a model and cradle to grave the model and understand what it's going to be from the moment you get the idea and concept of a of a facility to when it's disposed or adaptively reused.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

Yeah. It's interesting actually, because I I never really thought of it as a cost. I've always looked at it as I would call it a cost optimization strategy, not a cost cutting strategy. Like, you know, and and the same people that call it a cost cutting are probably the ones who who call value engineering, you know, anything other than cutting costs, right? Like it's it's so it's that that I find that concept so so foreign. And maybe that's part of the the misunderstanding or the misconception of of what it is, but um, but that's interesting. I've never I I've never come across somebody that goes, oh no, that's just cutting costs. I mean, it's it's saving money over the life of a building, but oftentimes it means front loading some costs in order to like so it's that's interesting. That's a that's a really interesting perspective.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

So you use cost optimization. And so um a lot of times we use the the term cost aware, it's a cost awareness strategy. Right. Um and some folks still make the decision for a a higher total cost of ownership element because that's more in line with their mission. Maybe they want to have a nicer facility or they want to have the this thing over that that is a little bit higher total cost of ownership, but at least you're aware of that and you're making that decision eyes wide open. And so cost optimization, cost aware, I think that's a really great way of looking at it.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

No, that's great. Well, and and thanks for sharing that idea, because I do think that uh, you know, again, whether it's AI enabled or anything else, I do think that the idea of looking at total cost of ownership, looking at assets holistically, again, not just looking at cost, recognizing, hey, as you said, based on our mission, based on what we're trying to do, we know we're gonna spend more money, but we still want to, even if we're gonna spend more, we want to optimize it over the life of the building and make sure we're not spending more money today that's gonna cost us even more money tomorrow because of maintainability and all of these, all of these other things. So I hope that, and maybe AI can can enable this in a in a way, in that you know, there's a level of complexity to the thinking and the calculations and things like that. Can AI help simplify that and and and make it more easily digestible for you know someone who isn't an expert? I don't know. Maybe we'll see. I mean, only time will tell, but I think there's a there's a possibility there of helping to um streamline the the thinking and the analysis potentially through AI.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Yeah, exactly. There are some really interesting things that some of the colleagues that I work with are doing with AI and total cost of ownership. So yeah, it's gonna be an exciting time to see what AI can do for TCO.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

Absolutely. Excellent. Well, Cameron, thanks so much for sharing, sharing your dad's story, sharing your story, sharing Princeton's story a little bit. Any last thoughts or anything you'd like to leave our audience with before we wrap up?

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Well, I just really appreciate the time to tell the story. I think the more we talk about uh these principles, the more that they're out in the universe, the the more people get excited about them and they come to the table with good ideas. Uh, you know, like dad said, it's all about people management, it's about relationships and having great conversations with uh someone like yourself or others that they they breed ideas, and it's really that whole rising tide lifting all ships. And so we're just keeping the conversation going, Bill. I really appreciate what you're doing here.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

No, I thank you very much for your time. I know you've got a lot of a lot of things on your plate and and and everything else like that. So I I know my audience will get tons of value out of this. I thank you for your time, and yeah, hopefully we can keep the conversation going. Thanks, Bill.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Cameron, thanks for sharing your story with us. Your perspective reminds us that stewardship of buildings and infrastructure is about more than systems and budgets. It's about culture, relationships, and the long view. Thanks again for joining us on telling your asset management story.