Lalit Agarwal (APPA)

In this bonus episode, Lalit Agarwal shares his journey from mechanical engineering into leadership roles in higher education facilities, and now as President and CEO of APPA. With a broad view of the industry, he discusses the challenges institutions face today, including workforce shortages, changing enrollment, and the need to use space and infrastructure more effectively. Lalit offers insight into how organizations can shift their thinking and treat facilities as strategic assets that support long-term success.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hello and welcome to this special bonus episode of Telling Your Asset Management Story. Lolit Agerwal's career began as a mechanical engineer before moving into leadership roles in higher education facilities and eventually becoming president and CEO of APA. From that vantage point, Lalit has a unique perspective on the challenges facing institutions today. From workforce shortages to shifting enrollment patterns and the growing need for smarter use of space and infrastructure. In this conversation, we'll zoom out and explore how organizations can frame facilities not just as costs, but as strategic assets that support long-term success.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Lilette, thank you very much for joining us on this bonus episode of Telling Your Asset Management Story. Going to be a little bit different than our normal uh podcast approach today, but I really appreciate uh your time and coming on to talk about not only your own journey, but Apple as well.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Thank you, Bill. I really appreciate you reaching out and asking me to uh be on this uh podcast. I was not expecting it, to be honest, uh, because I think uh I I have a different perspective uh than your typical podcast, as you mentioned, but uh happy to share my thoughts and uh speak to your audience.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Excellent. And it it looks like you're you're in the home office today. We usually we're meeting at a conference somewhere across North America. So I'm in our Toronto office today and you're at home. It's kind of a weird, weird thing. We're not in a hotel, we're not eating bacon for breakfast together.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

So that's true. It's funny. I think uh this last 16 months since I took this role at APA, I have traveled uh most. And outside of my own staff or board of directors, the one person that I've run into more than anybody else is Bill Roth. Uh, you are a huge supporter of APA, and uh and we really appreciate your support for uh APA International, the regions and the chapters, and uh amazing work that you do for our profession and our industry.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Oh, well, we really appreciate thank thank you for that, and and we certainly uh really appreciate APA and you know, we've been longtime uh members and involved, and certainly a lot of the changes that you've brought in, I think, are going to make it even better for business partners as well as institutional members. So so yeah, let's let's get into your journey and how how you came uh to APA and you know your all you know your journey all the way through the higher ed sector, through the business partner side, and to get to APA uh from the from the association perspective.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Yeah, happy to. And um I'll start a little earlier than even that, because I uh I was born in India and I spent the first 21 years of my life in India. Uh I'm an engineer by training, uh, went to my undergrad school in India for uh mechanical engineering. And then for pursuing my master's, I ended up coming to the United States, ended up landing in Nebraska uh for pursuing my master's degree. And when I came here, it was a very different type of campus than what I was used to in India, and it was a little more magical. It's something like you see in movies and TV uh shows, in a sense, compared to what my experience was. And it was amazing. The trash just magically disappeared, the grounds kept uh keeping themselves up, and and the buildings were comfortable. In winter, you didn't feel cold, in summer you didn't feel warm. So it was just a magical thing. And during my master's program, I ended up having to collaborate with the facilities team at University of Nebraska because my experiments required uh uh changing the uh HVAC system a little. And that was my first exposure to a facilities world, and I was fascinated. I was like, oh, this is this is what's making this trash go away by magic. This is what keeps the lawn mowed and this uh flower gardens maintained. So I got to learn a lot more about facilities and uh really started appreciating the work they did, so much so that when I graduated, I ended up taking a role with uh within the facilities department here at the University of Nebraska and uh ended up uh uh working there and building automation system, energy and utilities, and eventually left the university as a uh um as an executive director of operations. Um, and then I worked in uh uh in a private sector for two and a half years in a software company, again, related to energy and utilities and facilities management uh at a company called EnergyCap. And uh during this time I stayed uh very engaged with APA because again, it's uh it's the bigger mindset, it's it's the pie is bigger than what we all uh get exposed to. So in 2013 is the first time I was exposed to uh Appa's professional development programming. And since then I've been uh uh either a recipient of APA programs or even contributor to APA programs. And when this role came open in uh uh early 2024, uh I decided to uh put my hat in the ring and eventually ended up uh taking this uh they taking this job.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

That's awesome. Well, and it's I think uh it's interesting how many folks in higher ed actually end up working in facilities at their alma mater, like whether it's directly or they leave and they come back. I I think two or three of the folks that we've interviewed this season uh have done the same thing. And and and in some cases they've gone on and moved around a little bit and then come back or just gone directly in. So that's that's really interesting. And I think that um having both the uh institutional side and the business partner side, I think gives you a really unique perspective in your in your current role as president and CEO of APA. And I guess um for those that don't know, um uh tell us a little bit about APA, tell us what it's all about, tell us who can be members, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Yeah, so APA is a very robust uh 110, uh now 111-year-old organization. Uh it has been around since uh 1914 when it was first formed by uh very few uh group of uh plant physical plant superintendents, as they used to be called uh back in the day. Um, and it's a very vibrant and uh growing uh association. So we are a professional association. Uh, we have about 1,200 members, and when we say members, we count institutions or organizations or companies as members. So uh outside of few small cases, we don't give out individual membership. Most of our membership is uh organization based. Uh out of those 1200, about a thousand of them are educational institutions and about 200 are business partners. So, like Roth IMS is one of the business partners that we have. And within those thousand institutions, we have about 670 are four-year colleges, about 150 are community colleges, and uh about 110, 120 are K through 12, and some affiliate like nonprofit museums, uh military bases, and things of that nature. So, all in all, we have 1200 members as an institutional organizational members, but translated into uh individuals, human beings, we have about 13,000 um uh individual members. So these members are uh brought together through conferences, through events. Uh, APA has a robust uh uh program for professional development all the way from frontline uh individual to a senior leader uh within the organization to we have publications uh providing you with good uh benchmarking data, with good best practices, guidelines for your operations. Um, and we also now uh have advisory services. So if somebody needs uh assistance in getting an evaluation of their uh facilities program, we can find you peers or recently retired peers and they can come and uh give you a good robust set of actionable recommendations that you can engage in, and it's uh at a very reasonable cost because as a nonprofit, we are not in this to make money, we are in this to make sure that we serve our members.

unknown 8:03

Oh, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Yeah, certainly having that having that peer review or that peer feedback, I think, can could really help organizations, particularly somebody new coming into, you know, it's like there's you know, there's always there's always people changing and things changing, and and you know, facilities management is no different than a lot of other businesses, a lot of retirements and things like that. So having that ability to kind of come in and get a lay of the land, I think that's that I was really interested to learn more about that during the you know the fall of 25 conference season because I know that was a hot topic. So hopefully more institutions will take advantage of that to help them.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

And and also to your point, uh there are also there is also a slight trend that instead of just promoting people from within the facilities organization, we are now seeing uh people that have no facilities or even higher ed experience coming into facilities role in higher ed. And while they may have the skills to be very successful uh in the long run, in the short run, they may struggle in trying to see what the immediate next thing that they need to work on. And having programs like App Advisors, uh, we allow them to uh push the easy button really and say, all right, somebody tell me uh from a neutral, uh unbiased opinion, what is the things that we need to uh prioritize and work on.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

That's awesome. Well, and there's so many different parts and plates to be spinning in in facility uh and infrastructure uh on-campus infrastructure asset management, that that, yeah, I mean, it's hard for anybody to know, you know, to be an expert in in all of them, right? I mean, that's that's where that teamwork comes in. And and in in kind of in that vein, I mean, obviously, Lila, you're out talking to, you know, you're at these conferences, you're talking to your members, you're talking to members of other associations overseas based on some of APA's uh other institutional partnerships in South Africa and and and and uh and the UK and things like that. Um so so obviously, you know, telling your asset management story is kind of focused on the asset management side, which is pretty broad, but not everything that obviously physical plant folks do. So in in your travels and in your engagement with your members, what are some of the most common asset management challenges that you're hearing from your members and kind of where do you see, how do you see them tackling those?

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Yeah, I mean, uh there is there is definitely some recency bias, especially here in uh US, with the uh with the recent changes to Department of Education, the funding models and all that. But even leaving those that recency bias aside, even if you look at what's going on in the last four, 10, 15 years and what we think that uh things are gonna go forward, um, the challenges are in a broad sense uh bucketed into three or four big things. Uh, people are retiring. How are you gonna maintain that institutional knowledge? And how do you uh plan to backfill that skill gap that you're gonna be creating? So that's one of the biggest challenges that we hear again and again from uh um our members and even the international uh partners that we have in UK, Australia, and Southern Africa. Uh, I joke when I visited them, I was like, look, the concrete cracks the same no matter where you are. It it the facilities management, asset management world, they they may have some different rules and regulations and laws and procedures, but ultimately it's still a built environment, and the built environment has similar challenges no matter where you are. And that's true within even North America, whether it's in Canada or US. So uh retention and recruitment is definitely one of the big challenges uh outside of that uh uh stewardship of your dollar. So many of the institutions still see facilities as a cost center, meaning that it is something that takes money rather than give back money. And many institutions still don't see facilities at the at the leadership table, and that's changing. Uh, we are working hard towards professionalizing uh this industry, and we are starting to see some institutions recognize that the operations slash facilities leader should be at the uh presidential cabinet level, uh, and that's changing. But uh how do you educate that? How do you uh help our uh leaders talk not just facilities language but the business but the institutional language? So that becomes a uh very big um area for improvement for uh all of us. Uh and only when you translate your facilities uh uh needs into risk and monetary values, you are finally gonna get somewhere because otherwise, if you start talking BTUs and kilowatt hours, you will lose the precedent and the uh CBO. So that's that's another big challenge. And uh the last one I'm gonna say is technology. And 20 years ago, we kept talking about technology more in the building automation, digitization. And suddenly in the last 16, 18 months, we are talking about artificial intelligence taking over uh all our jobs. Um I recently met somebody that said, uh, AI is not taking your job. It's the person who knows how to use AI who will be taking your job, which is, I think, very apt because AI is the augmentation of human, not replacement of human.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and and and and you know, it's it's interesting because you mention uh facilities as a cost center, right? And that's one of the things that we've we've often tried to communicate with folks is no, you have to change the perception, right? And asset management, there's a reason why it's called asset management, because your your facilities are an asset. And and if you look at it as a cost, human nature is to cut cost, right? That's what you do with cost, right? You cut cost. That's the first thing you do to get more efficient. Whereas if you look at it as an asset, what do you do with an asset? You invest in an asset, right? And if you can change that again, focusing on risk, focusing on all these other things, if you can change that perspective, frame it from a risk management perspective. So it's it's it's it's about you know the reduced, you can't eliminate, but it's about reducing and mitigating risk, as well as supporting the ongoing uh strategy of an organization, whether that's higher ed or K to 12 or state or local government, whatever. Um, that's so that is just a totally different mindset. And it's it's hard to do sometimes because as you say, facilities has been kind of, I mean, how many different schools do you see where it's been passed around to six or seven different departments over the years, right? It's been it's in HR, it's in finance, it's over here. So I'm I'm really, I'm really excited to see that it's being that you're seeing it be elevated. Um and it's interesting you say the challenges are the same, uh, you know, uh everywhere that you've had a chance to to go, because that was going to be one of my follow-up questions is do you see any differences when you're when you're going to Australia or or um South Africa, other than the water spins a different direction in the toilet, of course. But but other than that, it sounds like things are pretty similar.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Uh they are. Uh I mean the local laws and local rules uh do make the process be a little different. And uh the only other difference I would say is the maturity. Uh so there are some areas where um building automation systems are becoming a thing now, where uh in North America, for example, they have been around for 20, 30 years, and we are moving on to the next uh chapter. So the maturity of uh facilities organization is uh slightly shifting. Although in some places, actually, facilities leaders are called chief operating officers. So they actually have a seat at the table. Uh, even within our K through uh 12 schools, many places, especially the independent K through 12 facilities, is direct portfolio of the chief operating officer. So that's the positive side of things, but also there are certain areas where maturity is not that high, but it's getting there, and the desire is there uh for us to become mature no matter uh where we are.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. And in and I had I I haven't seen it in North American hired. It doesn't mean there's not anybody out there, but but in K-12, I'm seeing more folks with the title of chief facilities officer. And and that's kind of interesting, and and I think it does it does elevate the importance and the role and and the the criticality to to the organizational success. So it'll be interesting to see if we see that uh coming into to higher ed at all, as you've seen it sort of in in some other areas. So uh so you talked a little bit about technology and talked a little bit about the future a little bit and obviously, yeah, AI is everywhere, and and and you know, I will couch this with a lot of what I hear of people doing that they're calling AI is actually just automation. It's not actually AI, but we won't go down that path. So it you know, and and maybe giving you some specifics about how how you see and how your you you know what your members are talking about, how they see specifically AI, um evolving asset management, but just other other things that you see changing over the next five to ten years, you know, AI related or or not?

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Um yeah, I'm uh that's one of my biggest pet peeves when people just start putting an AI sticker on every product that they are putting out there. So I was like, really, tell me what about it is AI. Um so I have my skeptical glasses on every time anybody says it's AI driven and we just added AI to our product. Like, yeah, whatever. Yeah. Um I mean, I think technology is definitely gonna be a driver, especially in the current situation where uh budgets are shrinking and um and we are being asked to do more with less or different with less as uh something. Or even less with less, as they talked about in half later there, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:34

That's the first time I heard that, really. Like that was interesting.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

Yeah, and that's where the service levels uh that uh um the service level agreements that uh facilities has with the rest of the campus is where they're saying, well, we need to reduce the cost and we are willing to accept lesser level of service. So that's the less with less conversation that um that is happening. And that's where I think again, APA has uh been leading the guidelines that we publish, don't just talk about staffing levels, but they also marry them with uh service level. Uh those are our published uh APA guidelines books that any member or even non-member can purchase from our website. Um so uh while we uh are struggling with sometimes the basics, we are also uh trying to um leverage technology as we talked about. So one of the challenges that we are gonna see is uh also the additional variable of uh potentially reducing enrollment. And when enrollment goes down, budgets are getting tighter. I think some of the at least the four-year colleges are probably gonna start seeing consolidation. And we have already started seeing it. I was gonna say we've even seen that, right? Cabrini and a few others have exactly so, and and that's gonna become more and more common. And the facilities leaders, if they are being smart about it, they will probably start better positioning themselves to when the consolidation comes, either they become the bigger fish that eats the smaller fish, or they will be the smaller fish that um needs to uh go and get merged with some other bigger institution. Um, the more we can have data and the more we can have the information ready and uh standard procedures and uh documents ready, the more the ease of merging would be. It doesn't matter which side of the equation uh you would fall into. Um but in in many ways, that's not necessarily a bad thing. I'm always a proponent of quality over quantity. So if there are less number of institutions that are providing better quality education, I think we as facilities leaders and indirectly our campus leaders, we owe it to our students to provide them uh better quality because we are no longer competing for the same faculty, we are actually collaborating with the same faculty, and the the overall education uh program becomes better. So I don't want to get political here, but the invisible hand, as they say, I think it will basically uh normalize things as as time goes on. But from a facilities asset management perspective, we need to be more ready with uh uh with the positive mindset of if this happens to us, how will we react to it? Um, so that's that's the consolidation is definitely one of the uh big pieces. Um the other thing that I think is also gonna change is just continuing to build because uh somebody was willing to come up with the money and donate the money to the campus is probably gonna start seeing a big shift. We are no longer gonna have that build, build, build that we have seen over the last 40, 50, 60, at least in the US, maybe less in Canada. Um no. Maybe a little less, but not much, no. Okay. Um so I I really think that we uh campus leaders are starting to recognize that uh a new space is not just the first cost, it's the overall life cycle cost of the building. Um and I asked this question to some people saying, hey, so what percentage of the total cost of owning that building over 50, 100 years is the actual construction cost? And people get surprised when I say it's about 3 to 5% of the cost, because 90 to 95% of the cost then is the actual operation and maintenance over that 50 to 100 year institutional cycle of that building, and maybe there is a 2 to 3 percent uh uh uh decommissioning cost, uh, which is laid out in Apple's total cost of ownership model. Um, so the the challenge is that people are realizing just because you got one-time money from a donor, we should not just build this space. And that's where the space utilization conversation is becoming very, very important. And uh density of campus and proper utilization is becoming a real thing. And again, all of these things technology plays a role in, even in space utilization. There are companies out there, there are solutions out there that can help you. Optimize your space utilization. The biggest thing is the mindset. If you change your mindset and be progressive and willing to adapt with the changes that are coming, I think it will come to you. Somebody recently asked me what is the one advice I would give to any facilities or asset manager. And my answer was be curious. Be curious about what's coming. If you are closing your ears and closing your eyes, things will come to you rather than you going to them. So be curious, and that's where you're gonna uh see the value.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

That's great, that's great advice. And I think it's interesting you you mentioned space utilization because it it's I and I don't know exactly when it happened, and it probably has been a long time, but it feels to me like within the within the departments of the institutions that the square footage of their portfolio is somehow equated to their importance or their political clout on campus. And so there's this there's this there's this resistance to giving up space, even if it's not being used effectively. And I think I think you're right. You know, in addition to consolidation, one of the things that declining enrollment is is gonna lead to is um excess space on on many, not all, because there will always be you know the the the unicorn campuses, but um that's gonna be a real big uh issue is trying to deal with the the departmental folks that that that are trying to protect the space when there's no money to heat it, clean it, repair it, renew it, all of those sorts of things. And and and um all of this building has been great for donors and getting names on buildings and new shiny buildings. But when you red line maintenance and you keep building more, it just compounds the problem and it's going to, it's gonna catch up. Um we we did a we did a um we did a sector review project in Ontario for all of the colleges, and one of the things we found is that at a at a portfolio level, their facility condition index wasn't that bad. But if you actually went below the headline number, there were two portfolios. There was an original old portfolio that had a fairly significant FCI, and then there was a whole bunch of new stuff built since 2000 that had almost no deferred capital renewal because it was practically new. So the headline number looked better than what the story actually was. But the bigger problem was as those buildings hit 25 and 30 years, you haven't been maintaining them as well as you should because you've redline maintenance. So now your deferred capital renewal, when you hit that first 25 to 30 year life cycle, you're gonna go from nothing to this huge spike. And unfortunately, I think a lot of institutions are facing that same uh that same issue, probably somewhat unexpectedly, because they've been just cruising along, happy. Oh, look, we haven't had to spend any money on these buildings because they're new. Um, but but in my head, I can't wrap like to me, a building built in 2000 is new in my own head, right? But it's 25 years, 25 years, right? Which, you know, major mechanical systems are are life cycling out. So um it's gonna be an interesting challenge for the sector for sure. Well, one thing that I was really interested to hear a little bit during the fall is is your your outreach beyond the higher ed sector. And so, I mean, obviously, there's lots of room to grow membership within the higher ed sector, but also looking beyond that. So, for anybody, you know, both higher ed institutions and K-12 schools and and other um uh groups that you're targeting, what would you say uh to someone who's considering uh joining Apple? What are what what are the benefits for it? What will they get? And even on the business partner side of things, for for an uh organization that is supporting or wants to support your members, um what's what's in it for them from an Apple perspective?

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Yeah, so if you uh go back to the old adage of if you want to walk fast, walk alone, if you want to walk far, you need to walk together. I mean, that's that's the basic premise of why associations like Apple exist is bringing people together so they can learn from each other, they can leverage the collective knowledge, and we can be collectively successful together. So that's really the basic underlying thing. And um, we have had some members reach out to us saying, hey, our budgets are being cut, so I don't know if I can afford the uh the uh the membership with Apple anymore. Um is there anything you can tell us that we can take to our supervisors, our bosses to convince them? It was like this is even more the reason. This is now the time to actually invest in your membership. Because when you are being asked to uh uh cut your budgets overall, would you rather not have the opportunity to learn from the collective to make sure that you're making the best choices? You're not making the mistakes that others have made, and you can avoid those costly mistakes or maybe put in new programs and innovative technologies or innovative ideas that will actually reduce your operational costs. So this is even more time to double down on your membership. Um, APA has many professional development programs which are actually open to both uh institutional members and uh business partners where we can become more effective. APA doesn't do any technical training necessarily, so we let the other associations offer the energy engineering training does by uh AEE and Ashray and others. We do human training. So we bring the best out of humans, and it's that other uh saying of the sum is greater than its parts. So when we have that effectiveness mindset that we go into, you can actually be more uh impactful in your daily job as an institutional member. So, yes, we are definitely uh focused on that, and we are actually seeing our membership increase uh over the last uh year over year. We have actually seen 10% increase or more uh in our membership. Uh, as for business partners, uh again, we understand that business partners are here for an ROI. I was a business partner for two and a half years, as you mentioned. I have a unique perspective from both both sides of the equation, and I understand that business partners also want value. Uh, so business partners, when when they come to us, we say, look, we give you exposure to a very big group of people. So 13,000 individuals, 1,000 plus institutions. That's a very big number that we give you exposure to. How you uh how you interact with them is up to you. You can just go to a chapter event, you can go to a regional event, you can come to the APA national, you can do sponsorships, whatever it is to get more or less FaceTime, depending on the size of your company, um, you can do that. And uh one other thing that we did uh do is uh we are making sure that the business partners are treated the same as our institutional partners. So we are elevating the business partners. Not I used to joke about this when I took this job as like, look, we treat business partners like smokers. We tax the heck out of them and then we tell them to go outside the building and say uh smoke. Um we are we are not doing that anymore. We are we are trying to be as equal footing as possible. Now there's always a difference in business partner versus an owner-operator uh mindset. So there's gonna always be some nuanced differences, but now we even have a board member position that is uh uh allocated to a business partner and we have a business partner advisory committee. We still need more, we need to do more work with them, but uh we are definitely we have plans to get better engagement and uh make sure that their voices are being heard and we can run our ideas by them to make sure that there is some resonance there too.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

No, that and that's and that's certainly I think one of the things that we've always uh you know appreciated about uh APA for you know, I I think my first APA event was 2001, I think.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

So I've said you were four years old when you were.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Um but but no, I think I think compared to a lot of associations, and and certainly this the stuff that you've been doing in the last year, Lilith, has even has even made it even better. But a lot, like as you say, a lot of the associations that were dealt with, it's basically like give me your money and then go in that room over there and we might come see you. Like that that that was sort of the mentality. You're not even allowed to go to any of the educational sessions or any of the social events and things like that. And and and you know, okay, that's how the conference business works, but but app has always been really different. And I mean, as you mentioned, right, we're we're big supporters. I personally am involved in a whole bunch of events, and it's because of that collaboration and that partnership spirit as opposed to us and them. And I think that that's really important. And I know when I'm talking to uh prospective uh business partners who want to provide services into the higher ed and the education sector in general, um, I'm always sort of touting that up. So I think it's it's it's working for as you're speaking as a business partner, it's working. Um, it's it's always been valued, but it's it's even more so and excited to see how it continues to grow. Um my my last question for you is obviously a lot of folks, and this just as a little add-on, as I as I said earlier, um I know that you APA used to have an office where everybody would come to work, and you and since you've joined, you've moved to a fully remote workforce. And I know a lot of our listeners are dealing with hybrid work, remote work, return to office, that sort of thing. So just just from your perspective, how has that transition uh worked? You know, the good, the bad, and and potentially the ugly, just uh to provide your insights.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

Yeah, no, um, the reason for moving in that direction, I'll share that first and then I'll move on to the uh nitty-gritty. Uh so in January, when the board met, uh, we decided to do a strategic planning session. And during one of those uh uh conversations, somebody asked, so why do we have the building? Uh we actually owned the real estate in uh Virginia, and the building was uh designed, it could easily accommodate 25 people, and AppA had a staff of nine, and they were coming twice a week uh into the office. So space utilization, as we just talked about, was not very high. Um, so we started looking at the cost of uh owning that building because, again, as we discussed, it's not just the cost of the building that you buy, it's also the owning and operating. And um we still, even though we are a nonprofit, we still had to pay the real estate taxes uh on that uh property. So ultimately the decision was made by the board to divest from real estate, and we did, and we got really lucky that uh we found a buyer within 15 minutes of listing the property. So uh commercial real estate not doing very hard, we got very uh fortunate and we divested in July. But between the January and July timeframe, we because we saw this coming, we started pivoting to what will it take for us to become remote? And one of the biggest things we did was technology is relatively cheap. So every uh staff member had a uh a setup that they can be fully productive uh when they became remote. And yes, the pandemic in 2020 uh was the horriblest, one of the most horrible things in the longest time uh in the recent past, but it also taught us that remote work is possible and technology elevated uh its game and we became very effective in working now. Those who are struggling with remote work, there are two things I would say you have to be intentional about making sure that the team stays connected. So, for example, before this call started, I told you that I need to text somebody that I'm not gonna be on a call. That call is our daily stand-up. So every morning at 9 a.m. Central, everybody in the team gets on this call and they talk about what did you do yesterday? What are you working on today? Is there any blockers that any other team member can help you with? So that intentionality makes it very important for us to uh be productive. The second piece I would say is don't measure the uh person's performance by number of hours they're in their seat, but as managers, elevate your expectations and elevate your skills to measure outcomes. So when you start doing that, it doesn't matter if somebody worked from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. straight like a typical office worker would, or they work from 8 a.m. to 10 a.m. and then they had a doctor's appointment, so they're gone for two hours, they came back and they work till 6, 7 p.m. uh that day. So it's it's more about how we accept that mindset that we are going to be productive no matter what. Uh that makes a difference. Now, I'll be honest, in a smaller team, it's easier to do. In a larger team, it's a little harder to do.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

Yeah, yeah. We're we're 120. Yeah, yeah, we're 120 mostly remote. And and um yeah, it was it was easier with a smaller team for sure. So uh, but no, that's great. I think it's great advice, whether it's a small team or a large team, right? That communication is is so critically important. And uh, and yeah, I mean, I think, you know, like it's we're the we're the same way, right? Look, if you gotta pick your kid up at school at three o'clock, you know, go. And just just yeah, as long as you're as long as you're getting getting the work done that's expected, and you know, I don't, I don't care if it's five o'clock in the morning or 11 o'clock at night or whatever, like whatever works for you and your lifestyle. I think that's an important market. So excellent. Well, Lilith, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I I appreciate you you missing your daily stand-up for us as well. Um, much appreciated. Your insights were were excellent. Uh, for all of our listeners, if you're in and around the facility infrastructure asset management space and and you're not involved in Apple, I would highly recommend you you check it out. And uh really appreciate it. I'm sure my audience does too. Thanks for joining us on Telling Your Asset Management Story, this special bonus episode. Thank you, Bill. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Lali, thanks for sharing your insights with us. Your perspective highlights how asset management is evolving into strategic conversation about risk, value, and long term planning. As institutions face new challenges, collaboration and shared learning across the industry will be more important than ever. Thanks again for joining us on Telling Your Asset Management Story.