Episode 288 - Leadership Lessons: From Bunker Hill to the Boardroom

Chadi sits down with Andy Moye—author of From Bunker Hill to the Boardroom—to explore the battle-tested leadership principles that shaped his journey from military service to executive leadership in biotechnology, life sciences, molecular diagnostics, and artificial intelligence. Moye shares why empathy is the cornerstone of effective leadership, how leaders must develop “adaptive intelligence” by letting go of preconceived solutions and responding to evolving challenges, and the critical mistakes executives continue to make in healthcare today.

The conversation also examines the future of AI in pathology and healthcare innovation, offering practical insights for current and aspiring leaders on navigating uncertainty, driving meaningful change, and building organizations that are prepared for the rapidly evolving healthcare landscape.

Read more about the book.
https://us.amazon.com/Bunker-Hill-Boardroom-Battle-Tested-Leadership-ebook/dp/B0H2BTXFL8

Check out Chadi’s website for all Healthcare Unfiltered episodes and other content. https://www.chadinabhan.com/

Watch all Healthcare Unfiltered episodes on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjiJPTpIJdIiukcq0UaMFsA

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

It's your host, Chatty Nabhan, and it's Healthcare Unfiltered. Thank you, folks, for joining me on Healthcare Unfiltered. Today's podcast is with Dr. Andy Moy, the author of a book called From Bunker Hill to the Boardroom. It's a great book that Andy wrote about what he learned from his military time that could translate into executive boardrooms from leadership lessons. Andy began his career as a flight officer in the U.S. Navy, flying combat missions over Iraq and throughout the Middle East. After that, he actually moved into the biotech world, life sciences, AI, molecular diagnostics. He served in leadership capacities as founder, as CEO, and as a board member for multiple companies. But what's so unique about this book is Andy was able to bring the lessons learned from the military into what we can actually take as executives from lead as leadership lessons. The subtitle of the book is Battle Tested Leadership for Today's Executives. But I can tell you, even if you are not an executive, this book is for you. This book goes in history over the past 200 to 250 years of the US history through Andy Moy's family and how they were involved in various wars. And through the lens of his family, not only we learn about American history, but we take from that history so many lessons that we can apply today as existing leaders and as future leaders. I read the book and I'm very grateful that Andy is giving healthcare unfiltered time of his busy schedule to discuss the book, what led to the birth of this book, how difficult what it is to write the book and trace the family history. What are the lessons that we should learn from the book that we could apply today in the boardroom as executives, as leaders across multiple sectors in healthcare and outside of healthcare? It's a fascinating book, and there's a foreword in the book by General Stanley McChrystal. And again, it's really an amazing book that I recommend highly for uh everyone who is looking for a book on leadership, on strategy, on empathy. One of the questions I asked Andy during the podcast, uh, what is the most important leadership trait? And his answer was empathy. As an oncologist, I can relate to this, and I cannot agree with more. So, congratulations, Andy, on your fascinating and wonderful book, From Bunker Hill to the Boardroom, which you folks can find everywhere on Amazon, uh, audiobook on Spotify. You can find it hardcover, and you can find it also softcover. It's also available on Andy Moy.com, and you could actually learn a lot about Andy and his book. So I'm fortunate I had a chance to work with Andy at a previous role, and I know for sure that he is one of the few leaders who is able to execute on the vision, the strategy, and most importantly, the purpose, as you will learn on today's podcast. Folks, check out my website, chattynabhan.com, and learn about my books, The Cancer Journey, Understanding, Diagnosis, Treatment, Recovery, and Prevention, as well as Toxic Exposure, the true story behind the Monsanto trials and the search for justice. And uh don't forget to watch out for my third book coming out on December 1st, 2026, AI and Cancer Care when Machines Meet Modern Medicine. There are fiction books coming your way, and I will let you know about these in due time. Without further ado, Dr. Andy Moy on his book, From Bunker Hill to the Border. Andy Moy, Dr. Andy Moy. Now we're gonna call you writer, Andy Moy.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like I said, it's uh take inspiration from you, Charlie, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Oh, thanks, Andy. Um, congratulations on your book. Um From Bunker Hill to the uh boardroom. Really, really, really great book. We're gonna go over it and uh spend some time understanding what made you write it and a lot of this. I have a lot of questions because I not only enjoyed it, but it definitely uh stimulated a lot of uh inner thinking after I read the book. But just a bit about you, though. I mean, it's not like you were you knew you're gonna be a writer. I mean, you you were completely in the scientific world.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Yeah, you know, I uh this this book came about kind of by chance. It's it's you know, as you know, work in the healthcare and cancer diagnostic and AI space, and and um this is sort of a departure, you know, from all of that, although I'm always happy to talk about what's new and good in that world. But this is really more about something that came out of you know, my son wanting to learn more about our family history and kind of getting some insight into that and realizing that I had, you know, paternal ancestors going back to the to the Revolutionary War who fought in the Revolutionary War and fought the Civil War, and my dad was in Vietnam. And, you know, just thinking through are there leadership lessons that sort of span all of those eras, you know, and would that be an interesting book? You know, it turns out people kind of thought it would. So that's kind of the way it happened, completely, you know, divorced from you know the science and getting into you know advanced therapies and real world data and all the things that I sort of deal with on a daily basis, it was kind of fun to fun to work on.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

So let's start a little bit just you know, for for someone who has not read the book yet, who is uh see this on the shelf, yeah. What should they expect as they pick up the book and uh gonna start go through through pages?

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Yeah. I think the first thing to realize is this is uh, you know, it's not a military history book. It's not a family history book, it's a leadership book really for people who lead teams, who manage teams, and just trying to give some principles that I think span the test of time. And it's told through the lens of my family and told through the lens of four very different eras in American history, in particular American, you know, uh combat history. And so I think people should sort of take away from it. It's it's not a you know, it's not a it's not a nonfiction book. We're not here to to to to you know argue anything about the past or what was good or what was bad about any of those eras or those kind of things. It's really can we take some lessons from the way those you know men and women operated in those eras? And and are there's are there lessons that are applicable today for startup founders, for business owners, for managers, for leaders? And I I think there are, and and we kind of hone in on three big lessons that we tell tell throughout the book.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

And we're gonna go through this, but one of the things that struck me first is um there's a family history component to this. Yeah, yeah. Uh and I mean the the first thing that came to my mind, Andy, was like, shit, should I should probably check my family. Maybe there's like because I don't know, right? So my my first question was how difficult was it for Andy to actually go back 200 years and know the family history? How challenging was that?

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Yeah, the research was a lot, you know. I mean, so you know, the the reality is this is kind of a plug for Ancestry. I mean, if you've never played with that app, it's actually very intuitive. You know, they've done a very good job and they've you know pulled all the information. So you can kind of start to piece together your family history, you know, fairly quickly using Ancestry.com. And and so you but but it gives you a very shallow view, you know, kind of realize okay, here's who these you know men and women were in my in my family's past, and then you have to go dive into it. And you know, that was really the interesting thing for me, like especially in the revolutionary. I mean, we all you know, if you're you know, you kind of learn about the Revolution War, George Washington, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

But you know, I kind of dove into the the militias and like, you know, especially in North Carolina, and you realize in the later part of the war, you know, the British really focused on South Carolina and North Carolina, and that's you know, again, where Cornwallis, you know, surrenders of Yorktown and all this all stemmed from battles that happened at Charleston and throughout South Carolina and North Carolina and Guilford Crown Courthouse, and realize like a lot of the casualties happened there, and then these militias and these committees of safety, like you sort of get deep into that that history, it's super interesting.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

As I said earlier, it's not you know, this isn't a I don't want to like recreate, I'm not Ken Burns, you know, not trying to like you know, make the nice thing, but but you actually you were able to infuse how your family was involved throughout this. Like what I was reading, yeah, I learned about the history, certain areas which I did not know, yeah, but also you kind of brought in your great-grandfather and grandfather and so on, how are they involved?

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, so to tell the specifics, so I think eight grains, you know, two men in North Carolina, George Moy II, George Moy the third, you know, they were in this North Carolina militia. Um, you know, they signed this document a year before the Declaration of Independence was signed called the Pitt Association. Essentially, these local tobacco farmers and guys had, you know, you know, basically governing themselves and signed a document that said, yeah, we're gonna do what the Continental Congress wants to do, and essentially we want to govern ourselves. And you know, that that declaration, that signature um was kind of a death sentence if if England had won the war, you know, like it was they were gonna burn your you burn your barns and hang you, you know, if if uh if if it didn't go your way. Um, and so that's you know, that's the first lens we talk about is like, what does it take for somebody to put their lives on the line, their families on the line for independence, for freedom, you know, for those kind of things. And I think that was really interesting. And I, you know, I had a relative who fought in the, you know, a few generations below and went uh fought in the Civil War, of course, on the Confederate side. And, you know, I make it very clear in the book that, you know, the purpose for the Confederate states was um indefensible, you know, to maintain slavery and do those kind of things. And and we we make no claims to to any of that stuff. It's simply, but you know, these men fought for their way of life. Um, as wrong-headed as that was, they still you still can learn some lessons about some of the things that they went through, you know, about it. So we we try to we try to really be sure that you know we understand, you know, the the nature of the conflict was not what we're arguing for at all, right? It's certainly about um, you know, on both sides of that awful battle, right? 400,000 people died, you know, what were the lessons sort of learned for that? And then my dad, my dad served in Vietnam, right? So there was so all these sort of different eras that we could draw from from the book.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

So I want to step back a little bit. Um was the reason you decide to write the book that in your business work, in your entrepreneurial work, you were encountered, you were like frustrated, people not knowing how to lead teams and like driving crazy, or was it your son asking you, like, you know what, let me just dig in my family and figure out what's happening?

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Well, I think they all came together, right? I think we all as leaders, and you know, you get to a certain age and you start to realize, like, you know, we're always learning, but then you also have all these lessons that you've learned over over time, and it's at some point it's time to give back, you know, and it's time to say, hey, I I learned a lot from you know, lead it leading page, for example. And I and I learned a lot from my time, you know, at different companies and leading businesses. And then I also, you know, read a lot as you do and like learn a lot from from other business leaders and things like that. And and I I really just felt like this story could be told in a unique way, the sort of leadership lessons, instead of just saying, here's what I learned in my career, you know, here's all the things, and and you should, you should, you know, you should listen to Andy. I really kind of felt like it was an interesting journey to take people through my family's history and say, look, here's here's what they learned, here's what I learned. They're all kind of the same things, and here's how it applies to business and leadership today. Hopefully, people take away, you know, one or two things from the book that they can apply to their own leadership journey every day.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

So you did mention about like these three pillars and so on. The first one that obviously very important is purpose. Right, right. You talk a lot about purpose. Tell me about that a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Yeah, you know, uh, you know, in the 80s and 70s, 80s, and 90s, you know, the big management push was around vision, you know, and every CEO had to have their vision, and you know, every company had to have a vision statement, a mission and a vision, you know, like, and we're going and everybody gets on board, and this is where we're going. And I think certainly, you know, I'm not the first to sort of talk about purpose, but um, you know, for leaders to really get the most out of their people, it's not good enough just to say, here's where we're going. In today's day and age, and particularly with younger generation, it's about the why, you know, and it's not just about my why, you know, here's why I want to take this company to go do this thing. It's also about why that it matters to you and what your purpose is. And so I, you know, we think about going back in these different eras, you know, again, what was the purpose for these North Carolina tobacco farmers to put their lives in the line? Well, so they could govern themselves, right? They didn't want to have taxation without, you know, they didn't want their tobacco crops taxed, they didn't want to live under that sort of yoke, you know, and so they had a very strong purpose, right? You know, for what they were going to do. Um, but those purposes don't always translate in today's, you know, business era. It's like you may have people who have a purpose in your company or in your um system or whatever, and their purpose is really about just putting, you know, bread and on the and food on the table, or they may have to take care of an elderly spouse, or they may have, you know, or you know, or an elderly parent, or whatever the case is. So everybody has a different purpose. And I think it's as leaders that's important for all of us to understand what is what are our people's purpose and how does that, how does that connect to the overall, you know, what you're trying to do in an organization. And and the interesting thing about that, and one of the things I talk a lot about is there may you may do that and you're gonna find mismatches. You know, there may be people who have purposes who just are never gonna be aligned with the overall purpose or mission of the organization. And it's kind of your obligation as a leader to find them a different per place. You know, like those are the kind of people when they're very misaligned and you can't tie their purpose for being there to anything that the organization is trying to achieve, they they shouldn't be there, right? And I and I think we miss that a lot a lot of times as leaders.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

So, on the business world though, help me understand the difference between purpose and vision. Like if my vision is to be X, Y, and Z, isn't that that purpose too?

SPEAKER_01 15:11

No, well, well, I'd put it to you this way. So, you know, like at Paige, for example, you know, the vision was to, you know, enable AI diagnostics for every pathologist. Now, we're gonna take AI into the future of pathology and we're gonna get every pathologist to use AI because we think it's we think it's better for patients, right? And that's that's the company's purpose or mission. But and I had I had people on my staff who for sure were on board with that. They, they, they had a connection to cancer. And they had a uh, you know, I talk about in the book, you know, an EA whose mother died of ovarian cancer. So she was very motivated to help in any way she could. And so very, very aligned. But I had tech guys who, frankly, you know, not that they didn't care, but they were more ained around being part of a really cutting-edge technology company. And so their purpose was to move their careers forward and be part of really high tech. And so, you know, you learn that about somebody, and if that's your senior engineer and it's very important, you try to tie those things together. Look, you can do that here, and you can also serve our the company's purpose and those things become aligned, right? But I also have sales, you know, you know, this world, you have a business development or salesperson who frankly doesn't care who they sell, what they sell. They just want to sell a lot of stuff and make a lot of money, you know, and that's their purpose. You know, their purpose is to have, you know, a big paycheck and a boat on the lake and and those kind of things. That's not the company's purpose, you know, but but they can still serve in that organization if if the two things can align, you know, properly. So I think it's it's not about, you know, vision is where you're going. This is the place we want to go. Purpose is is why you go do that. And I think a lot of the book, everybody has a different purpose for what why they're in an organization. You have to try to tie that back to the mission itself and and what you're trying to do. And that's if you want to get the best out of people, you know, overall. And I, you know, you're never gonna know that if you have a leader organization of 2,000 people, you're not gonna know everybody's purpose. But I think as every senior level, you know, manager all the way down the line, you should at least understand the people who work for you, what they, you know, what what drives them? Why are they there? What's their what's their purpose to be there, and does it align with the overall company's you know mission and purpose?

SPEAKER_00 17:28

And you know, in the business world, in the corporate world, there are a lot of bad days and good days. And I think maybe when you're going through one of these bad days and you're frustrated with everything happening, stepping back and reminding yourself what the purpose of what you do might actually help.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

100%. Yeah, and and that's that's for the leader to, you know, you know, as you're the leader, you're a constant communicator, right? I mean, they they always say this if you said it once something once, you haven't said it. If you said it a hundred times, you've only said it once. You know, like those are you know, you have to continue to say the same things over and over and a reminder of not only the company's purpose, but you know, how your purpose aligns with what what you're doing sort of also helps people sort of get aligned with what you're you know, trying to achieve as a company.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

You talk about adaptive intelligence. Yeah. What is that?

SPEAKER_01 18:19

I I think it's one of the most, you know, it's an aspect of leadership that I don't think it's talked about enough. And I think, you know, some of our most innovative sort of business leaders today are are are people who can understand when it's time to pivot or when it's time to innovate, right? Or when it's time to iterate, right? And so, you know, we we talk a lot in the book about um, you know, my dad was in Vietnam during the Tet Offensive. And at the time, you know, people familiar with the Tet Offensive, this massive you know attack happening during the lunar new year, and uh, you know, the the North uh North Vietnamese had taken Saigon for the most part. And so a bunch of the troops you know that were in Vietnam who were trained to go fight in jungles and rivers and like out in the countryside now had to go into Saigon and clear houses house to house. And and that was a very different you know skill set. And so trying, you know, and so the analogy there is like if those guys had tried to take the same tactics they used to, you know, clear out a mountainside uh as they did to go clear out Saigon, it you it would have been disaster, right? You have to have some adaptive intelligence. How are we gonna do this? What are we gonna change? How are we gonna change our tactics? And I think in business, you know, too many leaders fall in love with their solutions. You know, they they have a thing that they absolutely want you to use. But if it's not working, if it's not fitting, if it's not what the pro solves the problem, um, then then they tend to die, right? And so I we always talk about, you know, you have to fall in love with the problem and not your solution, right? And that's that's having adaptive intelligence. It's trying to read the data, understand when it's time to pivot, potentially, hey, this isn't really working, but this is. And so let's focus here and try to really go after this. Or, hey, actually, we have a really good product here. We just need to make it a little better and try to do those kind of things. And I think that happens in every organization, right? What, especially in the age of AI right now, Charlie? I think everybody's trying to figure out adaptive intelligence, right? What do I do, you know, with AI? How do I do it? How do I implement it? What you know, what's what's good, what's bad? And and so a leader's ability to understand data, to know what data really to look for, um, to understand the market, understand the customer, and really understand the problems that you're trying to solve every day, I think is a really under um, it's it's not talked about enough as a leadership skill that's important. And I think it really it matters to the overall success of an organization. Like you can just look across the the, you know, the the great example is Slack. You know, we talk about a lot in the book. Slack, you know, they had a game, a video game. But the initial the company was building this crazy video game, but his engineers had built Slack in the background to talk to each other because they were remote. And you know, they figured out that this thing was great, and they completely scrapped being um, you know, video game company and sold Slack to Salesforce for billions. So, you know, that's it, that's the that's the great example, but you know, it's not every story of Slack is always fascinated me.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Like one of the most fascinating stories. But but isn't one of the biggest challenges in the corporate world is sometimes you you fall in love with the solution that you think is solving the problem. Yeah, and even if that solution may not be the ideal, you struggle in uh leaving it because it's kind of like almost your baby, you're so anchored with it. And I think leaders like yourself and and others uh have to make these strong decisions, like, okay, well, we're just moving on.

SPEAKER_01 21:59

You you hear Right on the head, right? This that feeling of ownership. I've made a decision, we've built a thing, we invested in it, right? This happens a lot in the corporate world in the sort of larger business, not outside of the startup world. Somebody put their you know name to a million-dollar solution that they brought in and it's not working, you know, but we're gonna make it work. We paid for it, you know, we built it, or we, you know, and we're gonna make that thing work. I think you know, it's interesting, like you, you know, the the corollary there is a lot of in in drug discovery and in drug, you know, you see so many drugs fail clinical trials because they think the drug fits a solution, right? And they and actually that drug is not for that population, it doesn't solve that problem, right? But a drug company is like, nope, that's a big market and we're gonna go after that, and it dies because somebody just won't stop it and say, no, look, we've we've seen the data, the data really indicates that it's for something else, or we should go back to the drawing board. You know, you see that all the time, right? That's what I say. I think I think this skill is something that that that if more leaders had and could be um it's hard though. It's hard to be objective about those things because you do get personal ownership. And so if you can find some humility and sort of let go of it, you you'll have much more success, I think.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

It reminded me as if like when I buy a stock. The stock is tanking and going down much. No, I'm uh it's gonna come back up.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

It's never gonna it's it's well, that's you're right. You know, what happens is people double down. I know. Uh, and I'm gonna and it's okay to double down if you're convicted, right? I think if you're if you've seen the data, and we talk about this in the book, like that's called iteration, it's not a pivot, it's iteration. It's like, hey, this isn't going right now, but we're gonna we're gonna we we see the signs, right? If you you bought the stock, Shadi, right, and you're like, I know this is a good company, I know because I I know the CM.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

I could have stories how much I messed up because maybe stocks are gonna keep doubling down. Okay, and then you have uh another theme, which is empowering or empowered teams. Tell me about that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

You know, um, and and of course, yeah, I'm really grateful to uh General Stanley McChrystal, who wrote this great book called Team of Teams, and he was gracious enough to read the book and wrote a forew, you know, for the book. And so he's he's kind of you know, he didn't spearhead that idea, this idea, but sort of brought it back into the modern, you know, lexicon. And it's you know, what's happened over the last 50 years, and I think this is mainly because of, you know, technology, right? The ability to get a phone call, to get an email, to, you know, instant communication, those kind of things, is is this desire for leaders, particularly founders, to control everything, to control every decision, to uh have be risk averse about people on the front lines making decisions that they think will cause damage or whatever the case is, right? And so um, you know, if you think about in the Civil War or in the Revolutionary War, you know, England sat around, it would take six months to get a message from London, you know, and so you didn't really have time, you know, they didn't have time to sit around and wait for that. You know, Cornwallis had to make a decision as to where to move the troops and he did it, and London would figure it out later. And and you know, you had to empower your leaders on the ground to go do those things, otherwise you would never make it. And so I think, you know, the best outcomes come from, you know, organizations that trust their frontline leaders, that trust their teams, and and ultimately that judge judgment and don't judge outcomes. And what I mean by that is, you know, the great you know, analogy we make in the book is about Zappos. You know, it's very famous. Tony Shea, you know, told his customer service people your job is to make delight the customer, you know, and the theory was no matter what these customer service people did, the buzz around the delight would would cause sales to explode. And they did, right? And but did every now and then a customer success person spend $1,000 on something, right? Now, can you imagine most organizations allowing a frontline, you know, $20 an hour person to spend $1,000 on a customer? Like, no way, right? But because he enabled that and he looked at the judgment and said, Why did you do that? I did it because, you know, the bride had to have the shoes, you know, whatever, right? And they said, Okay, you you did what we told you to do. And and it ultimately became a viral moment. The company went crazy. So I think at the end of the day, very few decisions, like the decisions that senior leaders should make are the fatal ones. You know, like you should make those fatal mistakes. Those that's your job as the leader to make to make the really impactful mistakes. All the decisions can be delegated, you know, and especially frontline leaders who are closest to the customer. I was telling customer success people take care of the customer. You don't need authority to come to me and say, hey, can I give them a month-free?

SPEAKER_00 26:57

You know, but I think delegation is tough. A lot of leaders struggle with delegation. How do we get over that?

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Um, I I think you know uh it's hard. You know, I think most founders will find delegation very, very difficult, right? And I I think um the only the only way to do it is to just do it, right? You you just you have to start because certainly as organizations grow, you get to a place where your own bandwidth, like one of the most important things that I as a leader should be doing is shouldn't be making decisions about whether a customer should get a free month of service, you know, like that. So, but we think we should because it's like, oh my gosh, I have to control everything. And so you have to get to a place where you just you you learn to delegate and you learn to empower people. Part of that is you know ensuring you have the right teams, right? You have to you have to have good people working for you, and you have to hope that they're managing and you have to have systems in place where you feel confident and comfortable that you're hiring at least a high percentage of good people who you can trust. Um, because if you don't have that, you you're you know, delegation is not gonna work. But ultimately, it just comes down to to doing it, right? You just have to start and and ultimately you'll find out pretty quickly nobody's making any fatal mistakes. In fact, the jobs are actually working faster, people are moving faster, and all the things you want to happen as a leader are happening because you're empowering and you're getting out of the way, you're no longer the bottleneck. Yeah, right. And that that's what I think most CEOs and people are like, waiter, what do you mean? What do you mean I'm the problem? What do you mean I'm the problem? Right? Like that kind of stuff. Like, no, you are the problem. Yeah, like you know, everybody has to wait for you to sign off, everybody's afraid of your opinion, everybody's so you're the bottleneck in the overall process that you're trying to solve. And once a leader kind of gets that wrapped around again, uses humility and drops the ego, goes, You're right, I'm the bottleneck. Yeah, and they they get going.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

I think you're right, though. I I see this more with founders than other kind of leaders. Yeah. And look, I mean, you're you know, you're you're a founder too, and I think it takes a lot of EQ to know that this is an issue, and you want to be very deliberate in overcoming it.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Yep, yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

And and when I look at, I mean, the nice thing about the book is we are celebrating, by the way, this year is uh 250 years, right? Exactly. Of the United States. Uh yeah. Happy birthday, and thank you for your service and for everything you have done. But uh when I look at the book, it tells me uh one important thing. Uh almost uh over 250 years, these leadership lessons have sustained. Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah. So my question to you is uh is there a particular thing that you continue to see that executive still get wrong today? Is there a lesson from Bunker Hill that you tell me that executive in 2026 continue to get wrong?

SPEAKER_01 29:56

No, I I it's I think we go back to uh the empowered teams piece. And the we talk about in the book this concept of commander's intent. And this is a military concept that goes back thousands of years, actually, right? You know, the Greeks, you know, kind of thing. And the idea is that, you know, the leader of the of the group that goes into battle tells everybody, tells his men, the men, they tell their men, here's what, here's the objective of what we're gonna do. Here's the things you can't do, and here's how we're gonna operate, right? And you do that because you know, you go into battle and the leader gets a spear in the head and he's gone, right? And so, you know, the next guy can't everybody can't just stop, right? You have uh uh you think so. The next guy says, Okay, we're gonna we're gonna take the hill and we're not gonna go around that and and and so everybody understands the commander's intent in in battle. It's it's well it's well known. But I think most leaders today don't communicate their intent well enough down the chain and cascading communication. And so what you get is maybe your people kind of know what's going on below them, they don't know what's going on, and they don't know why we're doing something. And so the leader, and then three levels down, the leader gets frustrated because three or four levels down, everything is bogging down. And and you can't understand why things aren't moving, and why isn't the engineering team building that thing the way I want it? And why isn't the sales team doing the thing the way I want? Because he never really empowered them with commander's intent. You know, like I and the great um lesson we talk about here, and there's obviously another great book about it, is Jensen Wang at NVIDIA, right? Jensen Wang's famous for having no one-on-ones. He's got 60 to 70 direct reports, all the way director to VP level. He talks about being loosely aligned or couply cup uh loosely coupled, tightly aligned, right? Meaning everybody understands the objectives, but nobody's you know waiting on somebody else to do something. They all can go do it, right? And I think that's the big, that's the big mistake I think most leaders continue to make is they're not they're not communicating their intent enough, you know, up and down the chain so that people can go forward and go do what they need to go do, instead of sitting around wondering, what are we doing here? You know, and that's what that's what ends up causing problems for sure.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

In business schools, there are always leadership classes uh and and so on. Today, what do you think the worst lesson that they teach about leadership in business school, if you have an opinion?

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Uh yeah, I you know, and I've been through business school, so I I I uh I can talk about I do I know exactly what you're talking about. Um it's it's an interesting. I I I think one of the things that doesn't get taught, or if it does get taught, is that you know, there is in business, you know, leadership is by title. Right? And and that, and that if the CEO, the CEO has a title and the CFO is a title, and these roles, and then the VP and the director, like but the reality in organizations is that it's never that way, is that there's like a leader, and that leader sits, you know, uh somewhere in the organization, it is an individual contributor, and everybody comes to that person for advice and comes to that person to get projects done and gets, you know, and that person is influencing everybody else. And so there are leaders within organizations that are not that don't have the title, right? And or and they're and there are people with titles who are not leading, you know, and I think we as leaders in business this sort of hierarchy of of leadership is a bit of a sham, right? It's just it's really about ensuring that the right people are empowered to get jobs done and you know, worry too much about org charts. I think that's the that's the number one thing I think business schools love to talk is oh, the organizational design, the org chart, right? Like, and the org chart is a joke, right? And um, it it really doesn't matter. Like it's you know, and I I think about my own sort of founding journey here is one of the things I kind of want to, you know, as flat as we possibly can be, as long as you can, because I I want everybody to sort of think about the outcome, not who's whose job has the title and who's you know on paper who reports to who and all these kind of things, right? So I think I do think the org chart is the biggest mistake. The big the business schools, of course, consulting companies make a lot of money to come in and review your org chart, right? You know, so it's still a thing.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

So uh we I mean the the the the core of the book obviously is we're learning from the military and military leaders what executives should learn. So uh what's one thing healthcare executives should learn from military commanders, but also is there the other side is there something that you think military commanders should learn from healthcare executives? Now you you were you you obviously wore both hats. Yeah. You're the perfect person to explain that exchange.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

No, that's that's that's a really great question. I mean, um, yeah, I mean, healthcare executives, you know, again, just kind of going back to this this concept of of trying to be adaptive. I mean, you know, you know this better than anybody, right? We said we always tell this joke, right? Like if it's cutting edge today, it'll be adopted in healthcare in 15 years. Yeah, right. Like that's the general, that's the that's the time lag it sort of takes together, and and for for good reasons, right? Because we it has to be safe and you know, it has to be, you know, effect efficacious, and you know, the payers, like, but but it but but the but the adaptive nature of healthcare is not there, right? You know, and and so I think the ability to sort of think big picture, think on your feet, um, you know, again, go from jungle operations to clearing houses in in an hour, like that's something I think most healthcare executives need to start thinking more about. And I think you see it a little bit, I don't know about you, but I think hospital executives today, you know, have had to with AI, right? Like they haven't had a choice. They've had to start to think about adaptive, you know, adaptability here, you know, when it comes to AI, because it's sort of you know pounding on their door. So I definitely think that's one thing is being being agile, being adaptive on that thing. Now, opposite, you know, on the opposite side, I mean, I will say, you know, the military, you know, is a structured organization. You know, I thought I, you know, I just complained about org charts. Very hierarchy. Yeah, that is the way it is, right? The hierarchical, if you're the sergeant and you're the corporal, the sergeant's in charge. Like that is just the way it is, right? And so I do think there is, you know, and and and some of that is for good reason, right? It's that no one's confused about who's in charge no matter what. Uh now, in practical nature, and what most people who've been in battle and combat will tell you is the most capable guy will will, you know, will be the guy everybody follows, right? It doesn't matter what your rank is. Um, so I do think, you know, the military can learn uh, you know, a bit more from the sort of collaborative nature I do see in like, you know, with uh a lot of the groups like you lead, right, Shadi, you know, the oncologists that come together to try to solve hard problems, you know, in the space. You know, uh, I think if if we saw a bit more of that, you know, um, you know, amongst military generals and leaders and those kind of things, I think you'd probably get better outcomes for some of those kind of things. So I do think there's a collaborative nature in healthcare, people wanting to help the patient and doing those kind of things that that that could be taught as a lesson for sure.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

So I'm very curious about this. You I mean, you you were a CEO, uh and you are a CEO right now. You also held senior level positions that were not CEOs, you were at startups, you were at spin-offs, you were at a public trade company, and so on. And then you were in the military. And you were in the military. Yeah. Which one was the hardest job?

SPEAKER_01 37:58

Oh, it's, you know, I leading leading people, you know, uh, if you're the CEO of a company, it's I think it's the hardest job. I mean, and because, you know, here's the thing, here's the thing about the military. I mean, certainly the lessons you learn in the military are important because the stakes are very high. But the reality is when you when you go to sign in, you enlist, you come in the military, you know that you know the the stakes. You know what I mean? Like you're not confused about what you're getting signed up for, there's a chance you could die in combat, you know, those kind of things. And so you never have to explain the you know, too much, you know, what's going on and motivate people. But you know, in the civilian world, when you're trying to build a company or you're trying to take people in a certain direction, it's very, very hard because again, as I said earlier, everybody's got different purposes. No one's bound, no one's bound to the company by any oath, you know, like you are in the military. Um, you have to motivate the people to be there through, you know, explaining your purpose and explaining why it's important and proving to them that this is going to be worth it for them and their career and they're gonna do well with their families and all those kind of things. And so I certainly think, and then you have to say bad you know hard things, you know. I've had to go through and do layoffs and and those kind of things. And so you have to be transparent about it. So I think leading leading companies, whether you're you know, leading a big division for a company or you're the CEO of a company, you have a lot of people under your charge, it's a hard job, you know, and it's uh it's this is why this book is kind of for those people, you know, take something away from it. Hopefully it helps those kind of leaders, you know, take something away and and and do something different in their leadership journey that helps them because it is a hard job for sure.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Which chapter was your hardest chapter to write?

SPEAKER_01 39:44

Well, always the first chapter, isn't it? Right, like you know, uh blank page, you know, and actually I got some advice. I don't know how you write, but I got some advice to dictate.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

Uh yeah, I I type on my computer, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

I I don't dictate, but something, but uh uh the the editor actually said to me, Look, get a get a microphone and just I agree. I could imagine it's much more efficient, and just and just talk and transcribe it, you know, with all the AI tools today, just get a full transcription. And then um, and so you just talk, tell your story, you know, talk about what you're trying to say. It doesn't matter, it's gonna be bad. Yeah, so but talk as much as you possibly can talk, and then and then you'll have a core, at least you'll have some clay, you know, and so then you have some clay and you can start it. Right, and doing the thing, but the first chapter is always the first that you know, and once you kind of and I think you know this too, like I really had to think through what was I trying to say, you know, at what points am I trying? So you've got to think about the structure of the book, how are we gonna tell the story? What makes sense from each story so that it's relative today? I want everybody you know who reads the book comes out of a chapter to go, oh I get it. Maybe that's not as relevant to me because in my own role, but I understand why what the connections were and what he was trying to say. And I think once we kind of get rolling, you you get a much better feel for what's going on. So the first chapter is always the hardest.

SPEAKER_00 41:06

When did you start writing it? How long did it take you?

SPEAKER_01 41:09

Um 2024, late 2024, kind of started the journey. Um, and and so it's was, you know, yeah, it was it's a good part of 18 to 24 months, you know, to kind of go through it and go through the editing process and and and um and and as you're writing, one of one of the things as a writer, obviously you always have to think of your target audience.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

Right. Did you feel your target audience was specifically business leaders and military leaders, or you were thinking I could actually, this is general public?

SPEAKER_01 41:42

Well, I was hoping it'd be relevant, but I I did I did really want to just speak to like business leaders and anyone who leads teams, you know, that was kind of my target audience. I think there are people like you know, like I have you know, extended family, right? You know, people who are you know nurses and other kind of things, and they you know they read it and they're like, yeah, it's it's not as relevant for me. I don't lead it, but uh it was really good. You know, I enjoyed the book, right? And so I think from a general public point of view, I'd love it if everybody you know read it and thought it was great. But it really we're really trying to just try to to to empower some people to think think a little differently about the way they lead and hopefully take away some one or two lessons that they can apply every day.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

As you were writing this book, Andy, two questions. Number one, did you learn something about yourself that you did not really know, that you discovered as you're writing? And then did writing this book even change the way you lead? Because sometimes you kind of learn new things even as you write.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Well, I'll answer the second one. Yes. I mean, I and I I kind of talk about it at the end of the book around you know what I learned, you know, and and through the articulation of these thoughts, like because we always go through our daily work in a lead as a leader. Here's how I want to, but once you kind of put a framework to it, you kind of say to yourself, well, hang on, I just wrote this, but that's not the way I've been acting. You know, you know, especially with adaptive, like, you know, the ability to think about the data and the KPI, like, oh, maybe I I I haven't really walked that walk, you know, and and so I need to change the way I lead. And so now I am trying to do that. You know, I just you know founded this company and I was telling, you know, some of the folks I work with, like, going back to the book and ensuring I'm I'm trying to learn, you know, relearn the lessons that I've already taught, you know, in a lot of ways, so that I'm not uh I'm not making some mistakes that I maybe I've already made. Um and then, you know, as far as what I learned personally, I mean, it was just a really cool family journey. I mean, my dad uh passed about 20 years ago from idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis. And and uh, you know, and so I, you know, it was kind of really cool to kind of go back through his story and and sort of reconnect with him a little bit and and and think about the lessons that he taught and you know, with my brother. And and things like that. So it was a really gratifying sort of personal journey, too. And you know, I have a son and a daughter, and I hope they read it. And they know they say they are, but you know, they'll read it.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

You just force them to read it. What are you talking about? This is not optional.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

My son is 20. You know, he's exactly still you're not optional. Yeah, he's gonna read the book, right? So um, so hopefully they take away some some of the family history too. And it's I think it's it's a cool um you know memorial for him too, for my dad, and kind of service that he did for this country, too.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

Were there certain things in leadership that you believed 10 years ago? Today it's like shit. I can't, I can't believe I can't I can't imagine I used to believe that.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

I used to believe, and certainly in my 30s, even as I got out of the military and get a civilian to start to get some leadership roles. I I believed in the business school you have a title to the leader. I believe, you know, and I I I kind of I kind of had this sense of like, I'm the smart, I'm a VP, like I'm the smartest guy, and you should listen to me, this kind of stuff, right? And um ego, ego and leadership is a quick is a quick downfall. You know, I mean there's obviously founders need to have like delusional belief in what you're doing, otherwise you're not gonna make it. But you know, ego with leadership, you have to you have to have some humility. You don't know everything. You know, you're you're never gonna have all the strengths that are required to be super successful. So you have to surround yourself with super smart people and you have to listen to them. Yeah, you know, and and I think I definitely 10, 15 years ago, just thought, oh, I, you know, I'm I'm the I'm the guy who leads here. Why aren't you guys all listening to me, right? This kind of stuff, but that's just not the way it works.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

So uh before we end up, I have like some rapid-fire questions for him. Like I was just uh trying to think like to to to have some fun with you. I'm like, uh, okay, uh, some of them it's gonna they're gonna shock you. Do you do you have a most overrated leadership book and a most underrated leadership book?

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Uh overrated is the Jim Collins classic, good to great. I think it's dated at this point. Like uh you know, like I read that book. It's it's overrated. There's nothing it's like it's a classic, but it was real, whatever. So underrated leadership book. Um, to me, and it's my favorite leadership book, I just don't think it gets enough enough credit, is uh Colin Powell's uh It Worked for Me. It's about his 17 lessons of leadership. Like I just love them. I always go back to them year after year, and I share them with my teams. And like, you know, it's like the first lesson is good leadership means pissing people off, right? You know, and it's you know, you're talking about if you're trying to make everyone happy, you're not making hard decisions, right? Because that's just the way it is is leaders. And so it's a great leadership book. I don't think it got nearly as much credit as it should have.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

Well, I'm gonna literally uh buy it. Okay. Best leader you've ever worked for. I'm not gonna ask you worst leader you've ever worked for. I'm just gonna ask the best leader you've ever worked for.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

Yeah, you know, I I the best leader I worked for, um, you know, I'll just say his first name is a guy named Ken. When I was first got out of the military, you know, the veteran, the veteran transition is a hard one. And, you know, you kind of go from all the respect you get in the military to come in the civilian world and you're just a you're just a guy, right? You know, without without anything. And Ken was a guy I worked for uh at Lab Corps, you know, many, many years ago, who really believed in me, you know, and he really empowered me to uh go do things and you know, go back to empowered teams, right? He he trusted me without with with zero reason to trust me, right? You know, and and so I think that really helped set me on a journey for what good leadership looks like, you know, trusting people, and and he and I are still very good friends, and he's a senior executive at a big healthcare company now, and we talk all the time and share notes and all those kind of things, but definitely the best leaders I've worked for early on. And I was you know grateful to have him sort of you know be my mentor, you know, as I kind of went through it. Yeah, and I won't keep you worse. Most important leadership trait, one. Uh, I think it's empathy, and and I and I'll tell you why. And I I think empathy is funny because it's gotten a kind of a politicized thing lately, which I think is funny because you know, empathy simply means understanding what the other person is thinking or feeling. And if you think about contract negotiations, right? If I'm gonna negotiate with you on a contract, don't you think I'll get a better outcome if I kind of understand what you want and need? And so I this this idea that empathy is some soft silly skill is is ridiculous. It's a strategic advantage. Think about Sun Tzu. Sun Tzu wrote The Art of War. In the Art of War, he talks about know your enemy. That's called empathy, right? It's if you understand the feelings where other other companies you know, other groups, what your teams are feeling, where their morale is. Um, that that's emotional intelligence that gives you an advantage in negotiation, it gives you an advantage in culture, it gives you an advantage overall. I think it's something that's highly underrated. I think it's funny. If people don't want to have empathy anymore, I'll crush you. So that's I'm happy for them not to have it.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Most dangerous leadership trait.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Um ego, you know, I may maybe it's not a maybe it's not a leadership trait, but it's, you know, people call it confidence or arrogance. You know, I I think we we as leaders should have confidence in what we're doing and inspire confidence, but you know, you always have to have a little humility in the in the background, and I think that's that's one of the one of the worst ones for sure.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

Hire for competence or character?

SPEAKER_01 49:39

Character first. Um because I think most people, I mean, given a lot of other things, you can you can train competence, I think. But if you you can't train character. And I and I think character kills companies, bad character kills companies.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

Consensus or speed?

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Speed.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

Vision or execution?

SPEAKER_01 50:03

Uh execution. Yeah. I'll give you that one. A good military saying is uh a good plan executed right now beats a perfect plan executed tomorrow. So that's the that's the military saying on that one.

SPEAKER_00 50:16

And then um I think I probably probably is gonna be you're gonna tell me quant Powell.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

I had your military leader, every executive should study, but I I'm assuming based on the Colin Powell is one, but I'll also give you the really interesting one if you went get back on time, and I didn't know much about this guy, and I've I've been fascinated by him. Major General Nathaniel Green, who nobody really knows anything about, but I would say without him, we are still speaking the Queen's English. Uh, he was Washington's quartermaster who get the supply chains and logistics going. And then he got promoted to help run the campaigns in the South, in South Carolina and North Carolina that essentially forced Cornwallis into surrendering at Yorktown. And without Major General Lathani Green, his journey is fascinating. It's super fascinating. And it's he was an innovative leader. Um, yeah, super, super different one. So that's one for you.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

Andy, congratulations. This is really an amazing book. Where can people find your book?

SPEAKER_01 51:13

Which is find it atandimoy.com. You can get all the links there, but certainly on Amazon, it's on Kindle, uh, Hardback, Paperback, uh Barnes and Noble. Audio, audio, you gotta do audio. Audio's coming. Audio will hopefully be out uh early July in time for the 4th of July uh on Spotify. So we're gonna use a Spotify audiobook um situation. So that'll be coming soon.

SPEAKER_00 51:37

Well, congratulations on the book, and it's it's a great book, especially as we celebrate 250 years of America. And Andy, thank you for your service. I can I don't think people uh they should always give veterans a lot of credit because you put your life uh on the line. And um, I just appreciate you sharing a lot of information about uh your family, the book, the lessons. I learned a lot, and um your answers are amazing.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

Well, like I said, Johnny, it's uh it's it's great being with you. You inspire me all the time with the work you do with the patients, and so I appreciate you as well. And thanks so much for having me on the podcast. It's great.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

Folks, thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate you taking the time of your busy schedule to tune in. I also want to thank you and thank Andy for coming on my show and telling us more about his book. This is a fascinating book that I really suggest everyone must read. I also will ask you to uh subscribe to my show. You can watch all of these podcast episodes on uh YouTube and on every other uh social media channel. You can let me know what you think about this episode, other episodes. Drop a review. These reviews can surface this podcast and others to the top of the funnel. Before I let you go, I'm gonna leave you by a saying by Napoleon on apart, a leader is a dealer in hope. Until next time, take care.