The Pagans MC Blue Wave 2026 with special guest, Scott Burnstein!

Join John Livia and special guest, Scott Burnstein, a renowned true crime journalist, author, and organized crime historian widely known for covering the Mafia and outlaw biker groups as they discuss the Pagans Motorcycle Club.

#truecrime #motocycleclub #biker

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

All right. Serious outcast. Returned guest, Scott Bernstein. What's up, big Scott? How you doing, man? How you doing, brother? Thanks for having me back. Of course. You know, we're going to be a good thing. No, go right ahead. No, I just said I'm out west, so it's hot. Oh, God. I know. It's starting to get hot over here, too. You know what was funny, Scott, is I tried to put my uh I tried to pull my channel into like a respectable channel. And I was trying to talk about current events and uh, you know, Donald Trump and politics, and nobody was watching it, man. And I went, nobody was watching it, dude. And I was like, all right, let me go back to mobsters and bikers and porno stores, because that's what and as soon as I did that, just in the last two weeks, every subscribers uh uh views have gone through the roof. So I appreciate you coming back.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

The one whenever you want to talk about this stuff, I'm always available.

SPEAKER_04 0:59

Thank you, sir. The one thing that I want to say to you, I want to give you a little bit of uh I want to give you a little bit of props, a little bit of credit. Um always take the shine. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. People talk about you, other podcasters, people, um, all the time. Like as far as you notice that, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that as far as you getting something wrong, or your your information's incorrect, or you're a liar, or so on. So but and one thing that I have to respect about you is you never fire back. No, you just basically brush it off and just keep doing what you're good at.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Well, it takes a lot of self-discipline. Yeah, it's it's uh, you know, I'd lie if I'd say I if I would I'd be lying if I say that I'm not aware of it or that it doesn't phase me. I mean, I I don't want to make what I do about online tit for tat drama the the day that I'm putting out content on another reporter or content producer, I'm just gonna hang it up. I mean, that's not that's not what I do. I I report you know day to day on organized crime in North America. Um no here here's what I'll say. Uh, and if it comes off egotistical, then so be it. I'm doing something right now, and in the last three years, three, three, four years, um, that's never been done before. There's been nobody that has come on the scene and tried to report on not just one city, but multiple cities in multiple organizations in multiple uh true crime spaces. And you're 100% accurate. 100% accurate. So I'm just saying that people when people uh uh do things that have never been accomplished before, uh, and you disrupt the you know the regular way things are done, a lot of people start clutching pearls, and then especially when you're hitting them with a lot of truth, which I'm I am, despite what anybody's saying, it's the truth. The uh and and and I don't I'm not saying this as a political statement, I'm just saying this as a fact in the world of Donald Trump, which we've been in for 10 years, and whether you support him or don't support him, there's a certain media vibe that has resulted from his ascent, and that media that ethos or that sentiment is if you don't like something that's being reported about you, whether it's true or not, to call the other person a liar. So I'm on the leaving end of a lot of that because have a hard time uh you know swallowing the fact that I'm putting truth out, and if it's about their business in terms of organized crime, I consider it fair game. It I try to stay away from you know, like the you know personal the drama, yeah. Whether it's the YouTube drama drama or sorry, buddy, my uh internet banged out there.

SPEAKER_04 4:41

That's all right.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Just try to stay away from um you know personal stuff, right? Uh stuff that doesn't have to do with the with the um the the mob activity or organized crime activity, but if it does, you know, it's it's fair game.

SPEAKER_04 5:04

So for people who don't know your your your YouTube channel is called the original gangster, I watch it all the time. And what's even well, and you're 100% right. You've done from Canada to Mexico, all major cities, all facets of organized crime. You're 100% right. Nobody is really doing anything similar to that. People report on organized crime and maybe do interviews and so on and so forth. Um, and at the same time, too, you make it look easy. You basically just set up your computer, sit there, and talk, and you get an extreme amount of subscribers and views. You're very successful at what you do, and you make it look effortless.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Thanks, buddy. It's I'm I'm fooling everybody. It's it's far from effortless, man. I I uh I'm a neurotic Jew. I say that in in the most uh you know PC of ways I can say it, but I worry about everything and I overthink things, and uh so it definitely isn't effortless. There's a lot of time and energy in my mind that goes to putting together my whether it be the video content or the written content. Um, and now you know, for the first in these last three, I'd say we're going into year four, but I kind of started this in 2023 where I left my newspaper. I was at a day-to-day uh or day, I should say a daily uh uh newspaper in a major American city in Detroit, and worked there for 17 years and just was you know ready to go and start my own brand. Right. And you know, the brand is reporting on organized crime. Uh I took a swing, and nobody's tried to cover this much activity at one time, and it's a juggling act, but I I think I'm doing a pretty good job, and I didn't know if I could do it. Uh, and I'm I'm even surprising myself, and a lot of it, most of it just comes from good sources. You know, you a reporter's only as good as the people that give them information, and at this point, after three years, I got info, intelligence coming at me from law enforcement and from the street on almost a you know minute by minute basis.

SPEAKER_04 7:21

So it's funny when when you don't even have to look for it, right? Like people will send me stuff. I go, Did you hear about this? Did you hear about that? Did you hear about it? Right, yeah, it's it's really funny how that that actually works. I mean, it makes our job a lot easier, that's for sure. But um, so what I wanted to speak about today was I I now live in uh North Jersey. I grew up in, we've talked before, everybody knows I grew up in New York City, uh, Brooklyn, and then had moved lived in Staten Island, and now I live in North Jersey. And in the last few years, as far as motorcycle clubs go, uh, the pagans have really established themselves within North Jersey, New York City, um, and throughout the the the uh throughout the country, basically. Like I think.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

So they're in fifty, they're in 50 states right now.

SPEAKER_04 8:11

Yeah, okay. So they're in all 50 states at this point. And um, so I wanted to catch up with you and see how that's working out for the pagans for 2026, because I know what where I live, they are the dominant club at this point. Yeah, you know, and the other thing is because I also um love motorcycles and I have my own motorcycle and I go riding to you know, whatever, blah blah. And I and I've and I've made some friends in clubs that are you know considered outlaw clubs and uh one percent clubs, and um, I know like I don't obviously I don't know the inner workings, I'm not involved, I'm not in a one percent club or anything like that.

SPEAKER_03 8:53

Although that actually might change, but that's another conversation for another day.

SPEAKER_04 9:00

Yeah, that that actually might change, but anyway. Um, I work with a guy, we work together every day, uh hardworking guy, family man. Um, one of my really, really good friends uh for the last five years, uh, also in an outlaw motorcycle club. He's a carpenter. Met another guy, general contractor. Um they really do come in all shapes and sizes, they really do. And um I don't know if it's a handful that gives them a bad rap. I don't know if it's a handful that gives them a bad reputation. Um, but the guys that the guys that I know are basically knock around guys, hardworking guys. Don't get me wrong, you would the three guys that I'm friendly with, you wouldn't want to mess with any three of them, right? But they're not in trouble all the time. They're not, you know, like they there's there's this mystique about clubs where they're running guns and they're running drugs. All three of them have legitimate jobs, careers, families, kids. Um, so what's your take on? I want first I want your take on that. And the reason why I just want to talk about uh specifically the pagans is because they be are becoming the dominant club, and their blue wave has really blown up across the country the country in the last I'd say uh eight years or so since 2018.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Blue wave started in 2018, so we're or eight years into it, and it's a lot of layers to this conversation. Um in you know, just raw numbers, and in terms of reaching your ultimate goal, and and this was a campaign, an expansion campaign that was launched by Keith Richter, uh, who goes uh by the nickname Conan or short for Conan the Barbarian. And Richter is a he's a legend now coast to coast, but before that, before Blue Wave, he was a a legend, uh kind of an urban legend in New York City, Long Island, uh back in the 90s, developed quite the reputation as an enforcer for the pagans, and was a sergeant of arms for the New York uh faction of the pagans, and then went to prison uh for about I think 15 years. I mean a pretty long sentence. And while he was in prison, he conceived this plan to take the pagans from a regional group to a national group. Uh he waited till he was off paper and then started to to rally the troops, win hearts and minds, and by 2017 he had everything in place and he rose to power in a bloodless coup, where him and his team of loyalists uh pushed out the uh previous leadership, which had been out of uh Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Um and brought the nerve center of the of Hagan's Nation from Pennsylvania, where it always, I shouldn't say it had always been, but where it had been for decades. Um it was a group that was founded in Maryland, but uh uh and brought it to New York and embarked on a incredibly ambitious strategy that was going to, you know, it was just and it was gonna ruffle feathers, you know, it was baked into what he was trying to do, going into areas around the country that had never had pagans before and planting flags, and not just planting flags in a couple states, planting flags all over the United States, uh, even in Hawaii and Alaska and California, you know, places that nobody had ever heard of a pagan before in on the west coast, right? And there has so in I guess there's the the the different layers are what what the history of this is, and what the state of goal was at the time, and now we're almost a decade into it, and whether or not that stated goal was achieved, and I think you can unequivocally say it has been. They've you know uh they went from a club that had hundreds of full patches, and now they've got thousands of full patches, they went from a club that was only powerful uh on the east coast and in the southeast and now is powerful everywhere. So that is uh I think that's on that's something that you can't really dispute, but the organization's leadership, especially in the last couple years, Conan had to go to prison for four four years, 21, 2021 to 2025. Even though the expansion continued and and reached the 50 state quota while he was still locked up, I see when he came out there have been some there's been some tension uh before he came out and and when he's come out. Uh and there is a um a divide in in the the ranks of the pagans between some of the old timers, the guys that have been in there since the 60s and 70s, um, I mean guys that are in their 70s and 80s right now. Wow, okay. Um, and the younger, newer, frankly, darker generation of of pagans. And Conan uh has really leaned in to diversification, ethnic diversification. Yeah, then I know okay, yeah, and relying on the Hispanic or Latino uh uh wing of you know of his camp to go out and recruit other Latinos uh and and making an alliance with the Mongols, which have a lot of Hispanics and Latinos in it, yes, as a as a means of achieving your goal. I mean, this was the instrument that he he he he was and and is, I think, expansion by any means necessary. Uh so you have a group of people, uh, not a big group. So I would say Conan still has, you know, if I was gonna do a you know percentage, I mean he still has 70 of the club behind him, 75 of the club behind him, but there is a probably a quarter of the club made up of uh maybe less than a quarter, then maybe it's 15 20, but it it is a uh uh a vocal minority of guys that resent the expansion. Uh what's the what's the reason why? Is it is it uh I think that's that's also layered.

SPEAKER_04 17:25

I mean some people the uh racism tied into it, yeah. That that's possible. I mean, to be fair, the majority of clubs now are uh Caucasian and Hispanics. I know a lot of the major clubs are letting in Hispanics, um uh, and then you have your your you know your black clubs, but the little bit of information that that I received uh was the uh uh the um how fast they're making full patch members, and the older guys do not like that. Then they're not putting their time in.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

You know, that's your old two, and it's all it all dovetails.

SPEAKER_04 18:06

Okay, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

No, absolutely what you're saying is one of the issues, okay. That expansion by any means necessary, you might be growing in numbers, but you're diluting the quality of the brand. And I mean you could you could I don't want to, I don't want to believe not to.

SPEAKER_04 18:29

It would be, I mean, literally, it would be impossible not to. If you wanted to expand in that short period of time with that many members, you're going to have to fast track them, you know. Um, it's it's it's it would be inevitable, otherwise, you would never be able to achieve the goal in a short period of time.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

So, yes, you have uh um this. I don't even want to say it's a crew because it's not it's not a a group from any one specific chapter, it's um and I and I'm careful with my terminology. I I'm tempted to use the word dissident, but I don't even know if that's the right word. Uh you just you just have people mostly in I shouldn't say mostly all in the original areas, Maryland, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, New York, um New Jersey, which were the the the OG pagans nation, the Carolinas, I think, um Tennessee, but you have a group of those people spread out amongst all those different chapters that have pushed back on the expansion. Uh, and there's had there's been some administrative shuffles because of it. And right now we have we have a new president as of the last year, um, Cletus Clayton Ayers, who comes from Pennsylvania, and he is considered the middle ground. Uh, he's somebody that has the respect of Conan and his loyalists, and somebody that the uh OGs, if you want to put the the two camps as the OGs versus Conan and the new Gs or the Baby Gs, uh that Cletus has been installed uh as a kind of a diplomatic measure where he it's it's not he's not uh he's not somebody that is firmly in one camp or the other, even though I'm told he wears a Los Malos patch, and Los Malos is the um the faction of the pagans, uh, which is run by uh Zorro, who is their um their vice president, who's Hispanic, very well spoken, educated, uh, but he is the you know kind of the boots on the ground architect, or Conan was kind of the you know blueprinted it and then he gave it to Zorro to go you know implement, execute the the blueprint of the blue wave, which we have a that's by the way, that's what this has been termed. Conan when he uh made his uh push to power and uh got out the the the Pennsylvania guys and came into power, he called it we're now gonna embark on the blue wave. We're gonna we're gonna just take over the whole country.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

So you have people that are pro-Blue Wave, and then you have some people that uh percentage of a small percentage of the old timers that don't love the way it's going on, and Cletus was put in last year as a measure to combat some of the tension, and I'm told that it's worked.

SPEAKER_04 22:19

Okay, okay. So that's that's one issue that I understand they're having. The other issue is uh resistance from other clubs. Um, what there's gonna violence? I'm yeah, what areas inevitably there was gonna be violence? Yeah, exactly. It was just you know, especially when you you know in the Midwest and on the West Coast, when you have you know, you know, one of the big other big five clubs that have been there forever, they're obviously not gonna just allow you to come in. Um what what areas in the country has have given them the most resistance?

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Well, I mean, just in your neck of the woods, uh the first real you know, uh the first assault in in the Blue Wave campaign is traced to uh Newark and uh the attack of uh Hell's Angel in Newark by Hellboy, uh Brian Durandi, who goes by the nickname Hellboy, and uh Hellboy was uh uh part of the um the the blue wave launch and and uh one of uh Conan's uh favored uh New Jersey uh enforcers. And uh he I say this uh not being figurative, but like literally like within possibly hours, but definitely within days of of the launch, which was launched in a big get-together of of a bunch of of the chapter presidents and Conan and Zorro addressing them. Uh Hellboy went and attacked a uh Hell's Angel in the Newark chapter at a uh gas station, which was right down the street from the Newark chapter. So it started right away in in North Jersey, um and then began to uh you began to see uh the violence that would that spread from that. And uh you had a uh you had shootings down in Texas. Uh you had a murder in Oklahoma City involving one of the uh OG outlaws there, uh Arlo, who who was the one of the founders of the Oklahoma City Outlaws, uh was charged. The charges were eventually dropped, but uh he was charged with the murder of a pagan. Um and he he was locked up for a couple years because of it. Charges were dismissed, but uh pagans had never been in Oklahoma before, and they came in and caused one of the the the put the pagans that was planting the flag there uh to be murdered.

SPEAKER_04 25:20

Um there's been violence in also a murder in the Bronx, too. Oh, that was that was reversed, right? A pagan was killed. Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Yeah, that was the outlaws killing a pagan. So you so you in the Bronx, I believe.

SPEAKER_04 25:36

I thought it was the uh the one I'm thinking of is the angels uh and the and the and the pagans, if I'm if I'm accurate. I apologize. That was the pagans, yeah. You're right, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

I don't I was saying sorry, I met I meant pay I met pagans and hells angels.

SPEAKER_04 25:51

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and say, yeah, what's funny is that you mentioned that I remember that happening with Hellboy. That was a few years back with uh in the Newark chapter. The Newark chapter of Angels have have really started um establishing themselves again. Uh they were they were kind of silent for a little while. If I I might be wrong, uh, but I believe the the Newark chapter president came out of uh prison and he uh started really establishing himself the the chapter and um uh other uh what do you call it? Uh other one percent crews, uh uh what do they call them? Uh when you uh the smaller clubs support clubs, I apologize. And um has uh have been uh they've been asserting themselves in support clubs and and establishing themselves again in in North Jersey since then. Um because I know now they have uh they have block parties and they have parties outside and and you know so on and so forth, and and you can go to the you know outside the club where they have a barbecue and all that all that uh stuff and and whatnot. And that's what it's been in the last, I would say, two, I would say yeah, probably about two years or so.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

And and Hellboy got kicked out of the club and then got brought back. Uh really and and is part of the um the the again. I use these terms loosely, but part of the kind of the reconstruction or the the mending of the mending of the fences between the uh uh the two factions, which has again has all happened uh since Conan went away. When Conan was on the street from when it launched when the when it launched in in early 18 to when he got locked up in 21, there was no open dissent. And then he went away for four years. Initially, he put in a guy named Big Bob Francis, who was a Virginia outlaw who was known as I'm sorry, god's all right. I apologize. Yes, a Virginia pagan, um, who was kind of like uh uh a big teddy bear, like had like a reputation of everybody loved Big Bob, like he was uh go go lucky, um I mean, but a serious individual, but but somebody that was a you know would joke around and had been around for a long time, and he wasn't looked at as as being controversial, uh, and then he proved to be controversial. Really? Uh he uh he didn't like the Mongols and could not get along with the Mongols, and there were some situations at some uh um some runs that they had together where he it was perceived that he was disrespecting the leaders of the Mongols in his posture, his attitude towards them. Um and Conan sees the alliance with the Mongols as critical, uh pivotal in what he's trying to do, and I think that's proof that's proved to be accurate, right? And uh Big Bob would not tow the line. Uh, I think some of it had to do with being from Virginia. You never you were never exposed to Mongols. You mean you did these weren't people that you would ever see or do business with, and then suddenly you're kind of asked to not kind of you're asked to look at them as equals. Uh it caused some issues, and big Bob was uh forced out as uh as president, as looked at at first, it was looked at as a seat holder for Conan, and even though uh Conan is no longer the president right now, to be clear, Cletus Clayton Air is the president, Conan is still you know perceived as the kind of the overall godfather of the pagans, but he's from what I've been told by people, if he's gonna return to the presidency, he's gonna be voted in. That it's not gonna be just giving him the spot. So that tells you a little bit currently in jail, or he's out. No, so Conan got out. That's what I'm sorry if I'm if I'm losing people with all this narrative. Um Conan came out last year, last summer, and that's when what I call the reconstruction kind of uh started, which was the the frame within the organization that had that had uh occurred in the years that Conan was away um had to be dealt with with Conan coming out, and part of the the the the um the plan is was to put Clayton heirs Cletus in into the presidency, and Clayton was a was agreed upon Cletus was agreed upon by both sides of this divide. And bringing Hellboy back was also a part of this uh to be uh Conan's muscle in New Jersey. Part of the uh or the issue with with Hellboy was that he got into a uh physical altercation with with Broadway Phil, who was the uh money guy for the uh uh pagans for a long for a long time. He came from he lived in New Jersey, but he came from New York.

unknown 31:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

What do you mean by money guy when you say that? He was like their uh treasurer CFO, like unofficial chief financial officer. He kind of like a treasurer, yeah, like a treasurer. Oh, knew how to invest money, move money around, uh real sharp guy. Him and uh, and he was a uh uh a national leader, him and Hellboy got into a physical altercation. Hellboy got kicked out of the club for a year or so. Broadway Phil died, I believe, of cancer or a heart attack. And in the months after Broadway Phil died, they brought Hellboy back.

SPEAKER_04 32:22

Ah, I see. Yeah, that altercation is on is on uh video, right? Um, it was in a bar, I believe.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

It happened in uh at a party, like a at a at a uh a pagan's event of some sort.

SPEAKER_04 32:36

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Yeah, Christmas Christmas party, maybe.

SPEAKER_04 32:39

Yeah, and I I think um his wife tried to jump on top of him while they while Hellboy was beating him up. Something to that, yeah. Something like that happened, yeah. It was pretty wild. Yeah, yeah. It was pretty it was pretty uh it was pretty vicious. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I I remember that. That's uh that's uh that happened uh a few years back. Look, man, um and go ahead. I apologize. No, no, go ahead. I'm sorry, I talk a lot. No, so do I. That's why we have podcasts. Yeah um, yeah, a lot of the the old OGs, you know, uh guys like Hellboy, um, uh Conan, Gorilla, these guys were no joke, man. I mean, these guys were serious, serious dudes. They were they were street thugs, they were in and out of jail. This is this this wasn't your you know 2020s motorcycle guy. These guys were left over from the 80s, and it was like um uh I had gorilla.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

I love that you mentioned gorilla. Let's talk about him when you're done.

SPEAKER_04 33:38

Yeah, I had on a uh an author about three years ago who wrote a book about uh somebody who went undercover. Uh this um this was prior to the blue wave, and it this was an ATF agent who went undercover. He wrote a book uh with him, and I had him on, and he said every research that he did about uh uh uh that the ATF uh agent took down, they all had records. All of them, every one of them. Not one of them was just and that's since, like we've said, that's since has changed. You have a lot of guys that are, you know, rough dudes, but they're kind of straight-laced, you know, they go to work every day and they have families and so on and so forth. These guys left over from the 80s and 90s, they kind of only know one way.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

And there's a difference between broad barroom brawlers and hardened felons, right? Yes, exactly, exactly. Right, right, right, right. Great. You can be a really tough guy that's been in a lot of bar fights. That doesn't necessarily mean that you're killing people, you're dealing drugs, or you're extorting people.

SPEAKER_04 34:43

Two totally different animals. You're a hundred. That's the perfect way to put it. That's the perfect way to put it, absolutely. So now good. I um I had mentioned gorilla, he was out of Philadelphia, I believe.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

So Gorilla was national president at one point, you know, he was the face of the pagans in the night in the 90s. Um, very high profile. Uh Steven Monterreine, who goes by the nickname Gorilla. And uh he was out of the club for a period of time. Um, I think for a pretty decent chunk of time, had it had an issue within the Philadelphia Club with a guy named Um Tim Flood, who they called Timmy Casual. And uh Timmy Casual politicked his way to the uh top of the heap in in Philadelphia by pushing gorilla out. I'm not exactly sure how that happened, but gorilla got pushed out. Uh Timmy Casual ended up cutting a cooperation deal uh years after that, and gorilla was was, I guess, still on the shelf. And then Conan, who knew Gorilla from the 90s, when they were when Gorilla was Conan's boss, I mean, not direct boss in in in New York, but was the boss of the of the whole thing, the president of the whole thing. Uh, you know, fast forward 20 years from the late 90s when Conan goes to prison, uh, to the late 2010s, uh, when he's out of prison and and uh taking over the pagans, he goes and pulls all pulls good old gorilla off the shelf and gives him his patch back and gives him Philadelphia back. And that was a part of the the blue wave was bringing gorilla back and giving him control of Philly.

SPEAKER_04 36:48

Uh I'm told the gorilla still has a lot of pulls a lot of weight right now, and he lives with his mom in a um retirement community, which I think I was it's funny you said that because I was gonna say these old school guys like gorilla, hellboy, conan, they have to be getting up there at this point. Yeah, they gotta be over 60 at this at this point. Well, gorilla, I think, is in his 70s, 70s, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he also had ties at one point to the Philadelphia Mafia, right? Yes, which yes, which still does really still do, which uh, which skinny Joe still denies.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

But I don't know, it's hard to deny when somebody's uh you know in pictures on the front page of the Philadelphia uh it's so funny with you at a party.

SPEAKER_04 37:37

But I don't mean to get off the topic, but you're the perfect person to talk about this with. It's a good thing skinny Joe and Merlino has the ability to be funny and entertaining.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

He's hilarious.

SPEAKER_04 37:47

He's a otherwise he's an endless, endless quip machine. Yeah, otherwise, I don't know how he would be so successful on the podcast because he absolutely refuses to admit anything at all that even it's a whole dance that he does now. I don't know if you saw it on PBD, uh Value Tame in his interview. And he Patrick Ben David was doing everything he could, and he just wasn't budging every angle, every direction. He even mentioned Gorilla, um, and every angle, and Joey's like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

I don't think it's uh you know, just to editorialize for a moment, Joey and I have our issues, that's no secret. Um, at one point, Joey and I were as cool as cool can be, um, because I was writing very positive things about him, at least positive things in the world of the mob. Uh I was help helping build his mythology, at least his post-incarceration mythology, um, from 2011 forward. But the last couple years, he has not been a fan of my reporting, which has painted him in a less positive light because of the podcasting. It's upset people, um, and it's caused him to lose standing in the mafia, whether whether it's just lip service and it's something that's said and isn't really followed through on, or if it has really affected him, I guess we'll only time will tell and and and history will will be the final deciders there. But um I my editorializing is and then again, full and I and I always will say full disclosure and full transparency. Uh before Joey launched his current podcast, The Skinny, uh, him and I were in a year-long negotiation to do a version of this. It's it would seem like what you see now, but I was the first one to come to him and and really pitch him this idea. Oh, really? Yeah, we we had uh uh people that were financing it and uh a lot of moving pieces, and it it fell apart because of a couple different things, and uh, and I'm and I'm happy that he was able to get this off the ground for for himself, despite what he might think or what uh his loyalists may think. I I I don't wish ill will. I don't have ill will towards Joey, I don't wish negative things for him. Um I I would recommend if he's gonna go this route, which he's you know been in now for three years, just lean into it, man. Don't talk about murders that haven't been charged. I understand that because there's a statue limitation on homicides, but anything other than homicides that haven't been charged and that you haven't been previously acquitted of. Uh you can talk about anything.

SPEAKER_02 40:48

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

The idea that he thinks he he thinks he can thread a needle, uh, and I just I think it's a misguided um mindset that he thinks that well, I'm gonna I'm gonna kind of like get half pregnant and break the oath of the omerita, kinda, yeah. Right, not gonna go all the way into the deep end of the pool. But once you've broken that seal and you've taken a step into that pool, you're never gonna get the people back that look at you as you know, not that he's a cooperator, he's not a cooperator, but he's talking about the business, about the world. He's trying to work his way around it, but he still tells war stories on his pod. So just talk about everything, and that would be my advice then, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:40

And he just refuses it doesn't want to. No, he just does not want to, but whatever. Listen, it's it seems to be working for him, so it is what it is. But no, don't he's he's no, he's redefined the genre of of the mob tube world, so and you know, I'll be honest with you, and I I wanted to get back to the pagans, but the truth is, he's in my opinion, he's more entertaining than the the Dominic Sakali's and the Sammy the book.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

It's not even a it's not even a question, it's not even close.

SPEAKER_04 42:11

No, I'll listen to his I'll listen to the skinny eight days a week before I listen to another Sammy the book. It's entertaining, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

Whatever I feel about him not you know leaning into some of the criminality that I feel like he should just acknowledge because it's in the past and then it can never come back to bite him, right? Um, and keeping your mouth shut at this point is a little bit disingenuous because you're you're already you've already opened up the you know the vault is open. You might not the back part of the vault, you might be thinking that you can you know keep it barricaded, but it's it's open. Uh, but but I find him very entertaining and very likable. Um and I I hope that his his restaurant keeps on expanding. I hope that he gets all of the the stuff uh monetarily that he wasn't able to show legitimate receipts for that now because of this, he can go to the government and say, hey, listen, I might be driving a Benz, but it's because I have all these legit, and that I mean that isn't that the ultimate goal for every guy in that world to be able to eventually say you took the the the dirty money, you made it clean.

SPEAKER_04 43:23

So yeah, I would think so, right? And you know, and and get off my back because stop looking at me because look, I I have a successful podcast, I have a successful restaurant, and um you could you know audit me, do what you want, and uh this is why I'm making making good money at this point. But I want to get back to uh the pagans for a little bit. Um the older crew, now that like you said, gorilla's in the 70s, and uh you know, Conan's gotta be up there, Hellboy's gotta be up there. All these guys, they have to be uh, you know, at least over 60 uh 70s. Uh are there guy younger guys that they're grooming to take that. At uh national spot because they can't be there forever, right? Um, you would think that they there are a younger group that they're grooming to, like, okay, look, you know, we can't be here forever. Somebody's gonna have to take over sooner or later. Are is that happening in that organization, or is it kind of like the mafia where or or where they just don't want to give up the reins?

SPEAKER_00 44:21

I mean, you still have guys like I don't think Conan wants to give up the reins. I mean, I think that he wants to be the ultimate uh final say on all pagan stuff until the the day he dies. I don't see that he's gonna uh acquiesce. So I think you have to wait and to see what uh you know how the wind blows in these next couple years when he gets off paper and he can actually start being around these people. Uh, is he able to you know stay uh stay in the shadows or does he want to challenge Cletus for the presidency? Uh I don't know. Everything I'm told right now, him and Cletus are on very good terms. Uh Cletus is is very close to Zorro, and there's also a guy named uh Kano. Uh yes, who who's the he's like Yoda in New Jersey. The first Hispanic pagan he patched in 50 years ago or something, and right uh he he's he's one of the the true guys behind the guys behind the guys, right? Right, right, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_04 45:32

So now they've they've done this expansion. Um, it's obviously a success. That goes without saying. They're in every state at this point. What's the end game now? Do they want to establish even more dominance?

SPEAKER_00 45:46

I don't I think you've I think you've achieved the the uh you know the the mission statement has been achieved. I think just sustaining it. Um and if can and if Conan can emerge in a couple years and whether he's president or still has the sway that he has now as not, even though he's not the president, then he'll he'll keep sustaining it. I don't think you can reverse it. I don't think the guys that don't like it can go across the country and pull people's charters.

SPEAKER_04 46:24

Yeah, um, well, I meant the tube in that. I meant become more dominant in other territories where there are more dominant, like uh on the west coast. Does he want to become more dominant than the angels or in Chicago? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

Yeah, yeah, they're there's they're they're um you know kind of nibbling at the edges in California, they're not like in Southern California right now or in Oakland, they're in areas right now that aren't Hell's Angel heavy. So again, that's something that we'll we'll have to see how that how that plays.

SPEAKER_04 47:02

And if the alliance with the Mongols continues, and you have to give him you guys, you have to give him his just due because in today's day and age with forensics, with uh surveillance, with uh DNA, with ballistics, with eyewitnesses, he was still able to pull off what he knew he what he wanted to pull off.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

I mean he pulled off half of it before he even went in prison. Yeah, in the first three years, he did a ton of expanding, and then the momentum continued while he was locked up. Now, things I said I used the term you know, frayed. I mean, there were some things that he couldn't control uh that that uh uh caused some acrimony, but since he's come home, it it looks like he's been able to to well some of that stuff.

SPEAKER_04 47:53

Yeah, so like we were saying, you gotta give him his just due for uh pulling off something that nobody thought he'd be able to pull off, especially with today's modern forensics. Uh you know, uh there's surveillance everywhere, there's uh ballistics, there's DNA, there's um you know uh I mean you almost can't get away with anything anymore. And he was able to pull off this huge ascension into the United States where he's able to plant philosophs in every in every state in the country, um, and become uh what we used to be the big four and become now one of the big five.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

Yeah, and he's whatever happens from this day forward, he has written himself into the history books. Uh, he I think his goal, I I say this that I've never spoken to Conan before, but talking to people that that uh have a gauge of his mindset. Um he saw himself or he sees himself as what Sonny Barger was to the Hells Angels, what Taco Bowman uh was to the outlaws, uh people that took uh because neither uh taco nor Sonny founded those clubs, right? But they're the ones that everybody associates to those clubs, yeah. Uh and they they spread the brand. Uh you know, Sonny spread it around America and then took it uh international and taco uh spread it, took it from uh uh a Midwest uh Florida group and uh took it international and and and took it uh uh took it east. So no matter what, Conan is in that in that ilk, he's in that you know when you talk about Sonny, you talk about taco. Now you gotta talk about Conan in that same breath, in that same category.

SPEAKER_04 50:02

Last question, and good actually, that that brings a really good question. Do you think that that is the next step going international? Yes, okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:12

I would say yes, that that is probably what they envision for uh when I say sustaining what they've already achieved. Um beyond that, I would guess that we'll see them go international in the next couple years. Some of that might be what the diplomacy is about right now. Um, because when Conan came out in 25, he had already, you know, even though he had done half the work when he was free, and then the other half of the work was done when he was locked up, there were you know issues that had to be resolved that Cletus and and um some of the other leaders have have been able to resolve it. But uh I I know that questions about international expansion were part of the um resistance. Really that the uh they just the guys that are opposed to all this expansion just feel like they're losing the um the insular uh community. Uh the that they were these guys were proud of not necessarily being all over the place, they were proud of the quality over the quantity, I see, uh, and being uh you know big deals in these you know little ponds. I mean, I again I use that term loosely uh because New York's not a little pond, Philadelphia's not a little pond, Pittsburgh's not a little pond. But they liked that. Um, and this I mean, I think I think I don't know why I'm using this as an analogy in my head, but if anybody ever saw there's about 10 years ago, there was a movie called The Founder with Michael Keaton, and it was about how McDonald's became McDonald's. Yes, yes, and the McDonald's brothers did not want to have a McDonald's on every corner, they liked it being a small group of restaurants that they had all the control over, and they didn't they knew that they could get rich or richer off of a massive expansion, but they didn't want it. But then you had this guy, Ray Croc, who came in and sold the McDonald's on expanding everywhere, and then cut the McDonald's out, cut the McDonald's brothers out of the deal altogether, yeah. But it's I use that kind of analogy where you have the OGs just want it to be in those handful of states on the east coast in the uh south uh southeast uh Atlantic region, mid-Atlantic, yeah. And and uh by that they would have more control of the product, and they're not selling hamburgers, but the product being the brand.

SPEAKER_04 53:22

No, that is a great analogy because I did read the Ray Crock book actually, and uh yeah, and it is a great that's the that's the mindset of the the guys that are opposed to Conan's way of thinking.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

That uh we didn't want to go to California, uh we definitely don't want to go to Amsterdam and London and Paris and Barcelona and uh Sydney, Australia. I don't think they're gonna have much of a choice. Well, we'll see. I mean, I think it is telling when I hear from people that are really you know in the no insider types, and they say to me, Conan might become president again, but it's not gonna be uh a rigged election, like he's gonna have to win a vote of the the rank and file to get back in when he's off paper. So I think we'll see.

SPEAKER_04 54:14

If he even wants that, yeah, yeah, we don't know where his mindset is. You know, some of these older guys, though, they just can't like give up the ring. I mean, I'm I immediately go to uh uh Gene Gotti, you know, uh they they just can't, he's in their DNS, yeah. And I I would I would think, not knowing Conan, that it he's the same type of guy, right?

SPEAKER_00 54:36

Uh, but we shall think and you can be you can be a boss without having the job. I mean, in Detroit, we have uh the highwayman, which is a numbers-wise, is the biggest club in Detroit, and the guy that's the godfather of the highwayman, he hasn't held he's had he's never held the president spot, right? His name's uh dad, Leonard Moore, uh big daddy or dad. He's the he is the godfather, but has never been president. Yes, he doesn't want doesn't want to be president, so maybe Conan you know takes that kind of approach. We'll see.

SPEAKER_04 55:09

Yeah, we'll see. Only time what's held. Um, Scott, um, all the love and the respect in the world for you. Thank you again for coming on. It's always a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

Thanks for having me, buddy.

SPEAKER_04 55:19

You are a wealth of knowledge. Um, please, um, not that anybody doesn't know, but uh the original gangster podcast, gangster report, which is my web magazine, www.gangsterreport.com. That's right, that's right. Gangster Report, original gangsters podcast, which is probably the most up-to-date organized crime uh YouTube channel that you're gonna find. Period. Thank you, as far as I'm concerned. Thank you very welcome, sir. We will be in touch. Thank you very much. And um, oh, uh one uh quick announcement. I will not be having any content next week whatsoever, because I'll be celebrating my birthday in the Bahamas. Oh jealous. So again, once again, sir, thank you very much. I appreciate it. We'll be in touch. Thanks, buddy. All right, have a good night. Appreciate you, brother.